Dvati - the most irritating BBEG evar

[Sir Swindle89]

For those that don't know Dvati are a race that has 1 soul in 2 bodies have to have the same class, HP is split and when one twin casts a spell the other can do nothing.

So I noticed that there isn't really a distance restriction on how far the twins can be apart. I also thought to myself that since both twins are the same organism (bear with me) the other twins living body (or a cut off lock of hair) counts as having part of the dead one for resurection purposes.

What these two realizations said to me was that i could make the most irritating BBEG ever while still satisfying the PC's blood lust.

Basically both twins start their evil plots in different areas (countries for all it apparently matters). When the PC's go to thwart one twin they can suceed all they want, kill him even but since the other twin (safe in his fortress) lives on and continues managing the evilness, not directly for the other twins portion but running enough damage control that not every thing is lost in the defeat.

Further more since the twins are the same being the living twin can cast a ressurection spell useing a lock of his own hair or some such as components or his body as a focus. Now the newly rezzed twin can go on and start a new nefarious plot as teh PC's try to deal with his now prepared twin (assuming they even know whats going on yet :smallsmile:)
So basically the twins just die/rez leapfrog along till the PC's find a way to deal with them both.

Is there some major flaw here or an overarching reason i shouldn't use this idea?

Edit: wow way bigger wall of text than i expected, adding spoilers

[Psyren]

You are correct - the Twins can be any distance apart. You also get a window of time when one twin dies to get it revived.

For a brief time after the resurrection, the twins will of necessity be in close proximity to one another - this will give the party a window to end them both permanently, if they are fast enough.

Repeatedly being raised is not a viable strategy however; the level loss (or Con loss if they drop to level one) affects the living twin as well. But if you make them psions, you can get around that limitation with Psionic Revivify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicRevivify.htm), and the telepathic communication will let the living twin know immediately when his companion dies so that he can manifest it quickly.

[Sir Swindle89]

The "dead creature touched" target kinda mucks it up a bit but since we're already saying "dead twin"="live twin" he could theoretically touch himself and the dead one would just pop back up.

[Typewriter]

Dvati is actually my favorite race, concept wise.

You know how Dvati will talk to each other and argue just as a means of expressing thoughts? Since they share the same mind/thoughts/soul it's just like them thinking to themselves.

Well in one campaign I had that escalated to the point where one of the two bodies was an oppressive tyrant who ruled the land with an iron fist, while the other one was the leader of the rebellion. To him it was an interesting thought experiment, but to everyone else it was a horrific war.

The final plot twist was that one body had actually died, and the other one had found a way to stave off the stat loss that comes from having the other body dead, but had still descended into madness. Turns out it was one body playing both parts all along.

Favorite Dvati character:
One body wearing spiked full plate, the other body uses telekinesis and throws the twin around as a weapon. And false gravity to drop the spiked twin onto people.

[kestrel404]

Psionic Revivify works just fine, except for one minor issue - the dead twin comes back to life in the spot where he died, at -1 HP (stabilized).

The reason is that the psionic power specifies that the target must be a dead body. However, the range is touch, and as-per the Dvati's racial ability that lets one twin manifest touch range powers on the other twin no matter the distance between them, the non-local twin can simply use Psionic Revivify remotely on the dead twin.

Problem being, the dead twin is still in a situation where they are dead.

Add in a contingent teleport on both twins and this problem is fixed.

Now, as for ways to beat this? That's fairly simple - plane shift one of the twins before killing them. Most Dvati abilities stop working if the twins are on separate planes.

[Kyouhen]

Psionic Revivify works just fine, except for one minor issue - the dead twin comes back to life in the spot where he died, at -1 HP (stabilized).

The reason is that the psionic power specifies that the target must be a dead body. However, the range is touch, and as-per the Dvati's racial ability that lets one twin manifest touch range powers on the other twin no matter the distance between them, the non-local twin can simply use Psionic Revivify remotely on the dead twin.

Problem being, the dead twin is still in a situation where they are dead.

Add in a contingent teleport on both twins and this problem is fixed.

Now, as for ways to beat this? That's fairly simple - plane shift one of the twins before killing them. Most Dvati abilities stop working if the twins are on separate planes.

Actually, I could see that getting REALLY annoying if the twins are psions/clerics.

"Great work guys, we've killed the BBEG and the world is saved!"
*Psionic revivify, cure, cure, cure*
"Wait... Is he getting up again? Dammit! Ok, well he's dead now so we're done"
*Psionic revivify, cure, cure, cure*
"Sonnuva..."

[Goober4473]

Then have them use Clone to confuse the PCs even more.

[Psyren]

Then have them use Clone to confuse the PCs even more.

And Fission (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fission.htm)

[TroubleBrewing]

Add in some mirror image shenanigans, and you've got 32 potential enemies in one encounter! enjoy!

[Choco]

If you are already psionic, you HAVE to throw in some Thrallherd and include Mind Swap as well. All kinds of fun in that.

[SurlySeraph]

Once your PCs figure it out, they're probably going to bind his soul. So there's that.

[Kyouhen]

If you are already psionic, you HAVE to throw in some Thrallherd and include Mind Swap as well. All kinds of fun in that.

Major image... Polymorph any object... Turn yourself into an army of psionic books and hide in a library. :P

[TheGeckoKing]

Wait, how does Trap the Soul work on these guys? I always wondered that

[Person_Man]

Sounds like a fun enemy if you're playing in a Tier 1-2 game where the PCs use divination magic on a regular basis. If you're playing with a less optimized group and they have to kill the same boss 3+ times before the figure out what's going on and hire someone to cast the appropriate magics necessary so that they can kill both Dvati, it sounds like it will be annoyingly repetitive.

[kestrel404]

What I want to know is how True Mind Switch works with a Dvati? Do both twins end up in the target? Does the target suddenly share a mental link to one of the twins?

[Kyouhen]

For that matter how does divination work? If I use Discern Location would I spot the twin I'm looking for? Would I find both? Would the entire spell get confused and tell me they're somewhere between them?

[Psyren]

What I want to know is how True Mind Switch works with a Dvati? Do both twins end up in the target? Does the target suddenly share a mental link to one of the twins?

Dragon Compendium says they are one mind with two bodies (pg. 17.) So if you TMS them, you would end up as one mind with two bodies.

Yes, it's confusing.


For that matter how does divination work? If I use Discern Location would I spot the twin I'm looking for? Would I find both? Would the entire spell get confused and tell me they're somewhere between them?

The twins have different names, so you would probably only see the one you specify. Alternatively, no matter which name you use you see them both.

Yes, it's confusing :smalltongue:

[Kyouhen]

Wait, how does Trap the Soul work on these guys? I always wondered that

Actually Trap Soul looks like it would only trap one of them and have no effect on the other. Either that or the other would start dying off via the sickness thing. :smallconfused:

[Kaulesh]

Psionic Revivify works just fine, except for one minor issue - the dead twin comes back to life in the spot where he died, at -1 HP (stabilized).

...

Problem being, the dead twin is still in a situation where they are dead.

...

Why is that a problem? How often do you ensure that the BBEG you just murdalized with a whirlwind of stabbity death is actually dead? He drops, you coup-de-grace him, nick his pants, and walk away. Even if the twin was psionically revivified right after the pants-nicking, he's still at -1. It'll still be a while for him to be in any shape to get up and move.

[Kyouhen]

Why is that a problem? How often do you ensure that the BBEG you just murdalized with a whirlwind of stabbity death is actually dead? He drops, you coup-de-grace him, nick his pants, and walk away. Even if the twin was psionically revivified right after the pants-nicking, he's still at -1. It'll still be a while for him to be in any shape to get up and move.

Unless the other twin revivified him, then used Greater Psionic Teleport to bring him to wherever the other twin was, finished healing him up and Greater Psionic Teleported him back. With a few clerics standing by with readied actions to cast cure spells you could keep popping him out and back until the PCs ran out of resources to fight him. Bonus points if, while he's fighting them, you have some other minions running to the treasury to get him a fresh stock of magic items to beat the PCs.

[kestrel404]

Why is that a problem? How often do you ensure that the BBEG you just murdalized with a whirlwind of stabbity death is actually dead? He drops, you coup-de-grace him, nick his pants, and walk away. Even if the twin was psionically revivified right after the pants-nicking, he's still at -1. It'll still be a while for him to be in any shape to get up and move.

Exactly how long does it take to loot the BBEG's corpse? And his layer? Because ideally the psionic revivify happens on the SAME ROUND that he dies (or a round after) for minimal XP expenditure. At which point the PCs are likely to go - "Huh, thought I killed him? Well, don't want him getting back up again." And then they kill him again. Probably before looting the corpse.

[Godskook]

Exactly how long does it take to loot the BBEG's corpse? And his layer? Because ideally the psionic revivify happens on the SAME ROUND that he dies (or a round after) for minimal XP expenditure. At which point the PCs are likely to go - "Huh, thought I killed him? Well, don't want him getting back up again." And then they kill him again. Probably before looting the corpse.

Except:

1.There's no reason to re-check him for a pulse.

2.In a well built version of this, the twin would teleport in the next round, grab the corpse, and teleport out.

3.Since the players aren't 'in' combat, they're not in 'rounds', and thus, without taking a standard action to check for signs of life, the twin would qualify for a surprise round action as he ports in. Using his surprise round, he'd be able to cast a teleport spell to get the heck back out.

[DragonSinged]

One of my favorite characters was a pair of Dvati monks, very Exalted, "holier" than the cleric and paladin of the party put together. They were pretty devoted to Saint Cuthbert. Anyways, they were pretty quiet most of the time, and were sort of the party's "go-to guy" for moral issues. Anyway, one session the party all got mind-linked together for a sort of royal family defense thing, and I realized, "Wait a sec, but my characters are used to telepathically talking to each other all the time... hmm.."
So then I got to do my best to basically just motor-mouth for most of the session with any little thought that would have come to my character's heads. It was pretty fun.
"Wellheyifwegouptherethenwecouldgetastrategicadvant age - Yeahbutthenwe'dbeoutintheopenforanyarchersormagest hatwanttotargetthere - Ohyeahthatmakessensewellwhataboutifwe" That sort of thing. It was pretty great, and I got some recommendations to the GM for some bonus roleplaying XP.

As far as divinations and the whole "Dvati have 2 different names" thing, well, technically between the two of them, Dvati have 1 name that must be spoken in their native language (Which requires 2 people speaking at the same time in order to say), and just adopt 2 names for themselves because they know that their native language confuses people (plus, it can only really be spoken by Dvati, or maybe with some heavy magic use, as it requires the whole 2 people speaking simultaneously thing... Dvati themselves can't even speak it if they're not hanging out with their twin.)

But yeah, Dvati are one of my favorite races as well - They've just got such interesting fluff (Their alphabet only has 8 characters, which have different meanings based on which way they're rotated.)

Unfortunately, that character ended up sacrificing their lives to save a bunch of children. (That's another thing, they lead to really weird pronoun tenses and things. Makes for fun RP. Man.. I miss that character now. :smallfrown:)

Anyways, I forget where I was going with this.

Yep.

[stabbitty death]

What race is that in? it is such an awesome idea!!!

[Halae]

dragon compendium, Page 17. It's pretty awesome, but also pretty out there. takes a pretty good amount of roleplaying.

[Thurbane]

I believe the creator of the race posted on a forum (Paizo maybe?) with a few clarifications and changes of how the dvati would work in 3.5. I'll see if I can find a link...while not "RAW", it's an interesting read.

Here: http://paizo.com/dragon/messageboards/compendium/twoCharactersForOnePlayerIsItBalancedTheDvati

[Wabbajack]

I always wanted to know how a Dvati Dragonborn would work, because of the whole loss of racial abilities and all...

[Thurbane]

Dragonborn can be problematic with some races indeed. The wonderful "template that isn't" and all...

[Psyren]

You lose "racial traits." That's a rather vague term and it's uncertain whether a Dvati's "Twins" ability counts.

[Thurbane]

On a tangent: Hellbred live under the constant threat of having their soul drawn to the Nine Hells if killed, unable to be Raised. As this is a racial feature, Dragonborn is a very easy fix...

[senrath]

...that actually makes some amount of sense. I'd like to think that Bahamut would prevent one of his "children" from being drawn into the Nine Hells when they die.

[KillianHawkeye]

Don't forget to add in some simulacrum just to confuse things further. :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[herrhauptmann]

Dvati is actually my favorite race, concept wise.

You know how Dvati will talk to each other and argue just as a means of expressing thoughts? Since they share the same mind/thoughts/soul it's just like them thinking to themselves.

Well in one campaign I had that escalated to the point where one of the two bodies was an oppressive tyrant who ruled the land with an iron fist, while the other one was the leader of the rebellion. To him it was an interesting thought experiment, but to everyone else it was a horrific war.

The final plot twist was that one body had actually died, and the other one had found a way to stave off the stat loss that comes from having the other body dead, but had still descended into madness. Turns out it was one body playing both parts all along.


Up until the last paragraph, that's freakin awesome.
With the last paragraph, I'm actually not entirely sure what you're saying.
Dvati lose stats when only 1 body is alive, and tend to go crazy when only 1 body is alive, right? But your Dvati was only one body, but went crazy, perhaps turned into a Tyler Durden type person, and in his off time, was leading the empire he was rebelling against? Or leading the rebellion against his empire.

[Typewriter]

Up until the last paragraph, that's freakin awesome.
With the last paragraph, I'm actually not entirely sure what you're saying.
Dvati lose stats when only 1 body is alive, and tend to go crazy when only 1 body is alive, right? But your Dvati was only one body, but went crazy, perhaps turned into a Tyler Durden type person, and in his off time, was leading the empire he was rebelling against? Or leading the rebellion against his empire.

Glad you liked it :)

Pretty much. Tyler Durden is nearly the perfect example. Full explanation spoilered to avoid thread disruption.


It had started off as a simple argument that led to an escalation between the two bodies that led to an accidental death/suicide/murder. One body lived, the other died.

He started losing stat points so journeyed to a genie to wish for the resurrection of his other body. By the time he got there he was already starting to go insane, and accidentally wished for "My descent into madness to end.", instead of "Resurrect my other body to stop my madness". The genie (actually an Efreet) simply made him stop taking stat damage. He made the mistake due to his insanity, and as a consequence of still being insane thought the wish had been granted the way he had intended. He thought he was perfectly sane, and that there was two of him. The conflict arose all over again.

The party was working for the 'good' split, while fighting against the 'bad' split. Eventually they found out that the two people were Dvati, and considered simply killing the good guy, but decided against it, thinking that killing the good body would simply drive the evil body insane, and cause it to become unhinged and even more tyrannical. Yes, it would die naturally after a while, but it would go insane as it did so, destroying everything around it (as opposed to just oppressing it).

Eventually their journey led them to a genie who told them a fascinating story about some Dvati he had granted a wish for years prior. Now that the party knew what was actually going on they were debating whether or not to kill the good split but first having to crush his spirit by revealing to him his madness, or just going after the evil split.

Unfortunately the campaign fizzled between sessions and they never decided what they were going to do.

In short, Dvati are the best concept for everything ever. By and far my favorite race. Fun to DM, great to play. Even reading the dialogue about the race was fascinating, and I normally skip over that stuff.

[Kyouhen]

Except:

1.There's no reason to re-check him for a pulse.

2.In a well built version of this, the twin would teleport in the next round, grab the corpse, and teleport out.

3.Since the players aren't 'in' combat, they're not in 'rounds', and thus, without taking a standard action to check for signs of life, the twin would qualify for a surprise round action as he ports in. Using his surprise round, he'd be able to cast a teleport spell to get the heck back out.

Ah, but there's the hilarity of it. You don't need to teleport in and grab the body. Because the twins can use touch spells on each other, and the teleport spells have a range of touch, you could just pop the body straight to you. :smalltongue:

[0Megabyte]

Random, new statement:

This concept reminds me terribly of the twins from Black Lagoon. At least, I can see the twins from Black Lagoon as a bit of an inspiration on how this type of race can (not should, just can) be played. Very, very interesting.

[Just_Ice]

You know, this BBEG isn't exactly a serious problem. Beat the snot out of one of them, capture him/it, bring him/it to the other one, and beat him/it to death with his own twin. No significant magics are needed, beatings only.

Sure, you'll probably have at least one false start, but it's still much easier than say killing a 2E demilich or tarrasque.

[Kyouhen]

You know, this BBEG isn't exactly a serious problem. Beat the snot out of one of them, capture him/it, bring him/it to the other one, and beat him/it to death with his own twin. No significant magics are needed, beatings only.

Sure, you'll probably have at least one false start, but it's still much easier than say killing a 2E demilich or tarrasque.

Not a serious problem, but definitely irritating. Bonus points if you decide to rule that the Dvati count as being two-headed and give them the feat that lets a two-headed creature cast a spell with both heads. Now while one's fighting you the other one's healing it from miles away.

[Kylarra]

You know, this BBEG isn't exactly a serious problem. Beat the snot out of one of them, capture him/it, bring him/it to the other one, and beat him/it to death with his own twin. No significant magics are needed, beatings only.

Sure, you'll probably have at least one false start, but it's still much easier than say killing a 2E demilich or tarrasque.Well like most things, the difficulty of this boss predicates on how much you know about it. If you know that they're Dvati tele-ressers, then yeah, it becomes easier.

[kestrel404]

1.There's no reason to re-check him for a pulse.
I would absolutely give players a spot check to notice he had started breathing again. Not to mention that his head might have to re-attach/regrow itself. And once they notice the first time...


2.In a well built version of this, the twin would teleport in the next round, grab the corpse, and teleport out.
I believe that's what I said in the first place, except without the 'teleport in' option.

[Sir Swindle89]

Not a serious problem, but definitely irritating. Bonus points if you decide to rule that the Dvati count as being two-headed and give them the feat that lets a two-headed creature cast a spell with both heads. Now while one's fighting you the other one's healing it from miles away.

Thats actually specifically against their rules, it takes all of the soul's concentration to cast the non-casting twin can't even 5ft step.

Having him escape, heal and come back to fight some more would be smart but since he's a BBEG he cannot possibly do that :smallbiggrin:.

Really I don't see how this is much different from a BBEG that always escapes via fiat or for plot reasons. At least having him live to fight another day this way there is a mechanical challenge or puzzle of sorts built in rather than just haveing him die at the plotcentric moment.

As far as Dvati are concerned, how does dimension door work? both twins are "you" or at least the other twin counts as a "touched willing creature" so
would they both always end up at the destination?
would only the twins within range of the destination teleport?
does each twin get it's own destination?

Furthermore if one twin is bound and the other gagged, can they still cast? If one twin performs the verbal and somatic components remotly can the spells originate from the other?(heavy armor gish race?)

[Psyren]

As far as Dvati are concerned, how does dimension door work? both twins are "you" or at least the other twin counts as a "touched willing creature" so
would they both always end up at the destination?
would only the twins within range of the destination teleport?
does each twin get it's own destination?

I would say the last one; they can share Dim Door with each other, which would be treated like each of them received one. This would give each of them a destination within range, rather than both arriving at the same point from across the world.


Furthermore if one twin is bound and the other gagged, can they still cast?

No; both twins must perform the verbal and somatic components for a spell to go off. Only material components can be one-sided. In fact, if one twin is interrupted while casting, their spell will fizzle.

Psionics again reduces this complexity (and fits with them thematically since they're telepathic.)


If one twin performs the verbal and somatic components remotly can the spells originate from the other?(heavy armor gish race?)

The one in heavy armor also needs to perform the verbal and somatic components anyway, so it really doesn't matter.

[kestrel404]

I interpret that section differently (though I'm doing so from memory). I recall that it says that while one twin is casting, the other must concentrate, and that they fidget and mumble (or something along those lines), not that they perform the spell simultaneously.

If you rule that BOTH twins must be capable of performing both the somatic and verbal portions of the spell, then you're also saying that any time one twin is disabled (by, say, being unconscious), the other twin is incapable of spellcasting (or even using SLAs, powers, PLAs, etc.). That is horribly crippling, and pretty obviously not the intent of the author, nor is it state to be in the text.

I see nothing wrong with having one twin wear full platemail while the other twin casts spells - because the Dvati were never really made to be spellcasters (or even psionicists). The 'only one spell' restriction is pretty clear, and the only major advantage that the Dvati gain from their race is the ability to act independently of one another, each having their own actions.

As for disrupting the spell by disrupting the concentration of the other twin, I'd say that this is probably quite possible - since both twins must concentrate, then obviously you only need to disrupt the concentration of one twin.

[term1nally s1ck]

It actually says that one of them can cast solo if the other takes no actions at all.

[Wabbajack]

The real fun begins with Warlock or Dragonfire Adept Dvati :D

[true_shinken]

The real fun begins with Warlock or Dragonfire Adept Dvati :D

I just have to ask: why?

[Wabbajack]

Because invocations =/= spells? Both twins can "cast" invocations simultaneously.

[Psyren]

Okay, here are the relevant portions:


Casting together:

When a dvati casts a spell, both members of the pair must focus and concentrate on it. Both twins must simultaneously take the actions required to cast a spell, although only one must supply material components. One twin cannot cast a spell while the other attacks, for example.

Lone twin casting:

A lone dvati can cast spells if his twin takes no actions while he casts. Any other sort of action, including a free one, makes it impossible for the casting twin to focus and use his spell.

In other words, casting is either:

1) 1 twin does everything, the other can do nothing until the spell goes off;
2) Both twins do everything.

You can't have one do verbal and one somatic or vice-versa. This means that tying one and gagging the other does prevent them casting.

It is possible for one to cast while the other melees, but the gish will give up his actions until the spell is complete (unless the spell is cast as a swift or something.) This is functionally identical to a regular gish being unable to cast a spell and attack, unless he casts as a swift, or has an ability that lets him cast and attack in one action.

[true_shinken]

Because invocations =/= spells? Both twins can "cast" invocations simultaneously.
:smallsigh:
Good luck getting that past any DM while blatantly breaking RAI like that.

[Demons_eye]

:smallsigh:
Good luck getting that past any DM while blatantly breaking RAI like that.

I can hear my DM now "They can do that!? Hell no I don;t care if its shaky that ****s cool do it anyway!"

As for the -1= a problem why not give the BBEG die hard?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I keep on only seeing references to Dragon Compenium. I don’t have the Compendium, but I have all 3rd/3.5 issues. Anyone know what issue number this is from?

[Sir Swindle89]

Because invocations =/= spells? Both twins can "cast" invocations simultaneously.

They are Spell-Like abilities I'm gonna stick to the no-way-in-hell-any-one-would-let-you-do-that approach

Thats like saying "ow they didn't mention utterences, they'll be awsome true namers" Sadly they would still be bad Truenamers even then:smallsigh:

[senrath]

I keep on only seeing references to Dragon Compenium. I don’t have the Compendium, but I have all 3rd/3.5 issues. Anyone know what issue number this is from?

Dragon 271, according to the Compendium.

[herrhauptmann]

It is possible for one to cast while the other melees, but the gish will give up his actions until the spell is complete (unless the spell is cast as a swift or something.) This is functionally identical to a regular gish being unable to cast a spell and attack, unless he casts as a swift, or has an ability that lets him cast and attack in one action.

It's both better and worse than a gish.
It's worse, because as a player, you have to split your resources equipping two characters rather than one.
It's the same as a regular gish, because your action economy is still about the same without significant cheese.
It's better than a regular gish, because your melee half can just not take an action while the caster half casts a spell. How is this different? No mageslayer to worry about, no readied actions to hit you during spellcasting, etc.

[Psyren]

It's better than a regular gish, because your melee half can just not take an action while the caster half casts a spell. How is this different? No mageslayer to worry about, no readied actions to hit you during spellcasting, etc.

A regular gish rarely has to worry about these either. They don't have to cast defensively in most cases (swift-action spells, the gish's bread-and-butter, don't provoke AoOs) or they can just 5-foot step and cast if a standard is needed.

[herrhauptmann]

5 ft step isn't always feasible.

[true_shinken]

5 ft step isn't always feasible.
Dude, when you are a gish, a single attack of oportunity is hardly a problem.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Thats like saying "ow they didn't mention utterences, they'll be awsome true namers" Sadly they would still be bad Truenamers even then:smallsigh:
Yeah. Would have taken quite a bit of foresight to include mechanics that weren’t even invented at the time it was first published. :smalltongue:


Dragon 271, according to the Compendium.
Thanks! (Hm. That’s a pretty early 3.0 issue, too.)

[Psyren]

5 ft step isn't always feasible.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here :smallconfused: Very few tactics work 100% of the time, that doesn't make them stop being useful.

[Sir Swindle89]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here :smallconfused: Very few tactics work 100% of the time, that doesn't make them stop being useful.

However, not having to worry about it 100% of the time is still better :smallsmile:

While I have people in the Dvati mindset, how would they do soul melds? I'm pretty sure there were rules for meldshapers with non-humanoid anatomy and i'm pretty sure those rules said you that you have the same chakras just redustributed. So i would think the twins would shape the melds and just both get the benefits of them, except for stuff that let you do SLA's or the soulspark familiar or the other summons.

[Typewriter]

However, not having to worry about it 100% of the time is still better :smallsmile:

While I have people in the Dvati mindset, how would they do soul melds? I'm pretty sure there were rules for meldshapers with non-humanoid anatomy and i'm pretty sure those rules said you that you have the same chakras just redustributed. So i would think the twins would shape the melds and just both get the benefits of them, except for stuff that let you do SLA's or the soulspark familiar or the other summons.

As I recall soul melds act almost exactly the same as items. If you use one soulmeld to create a helmet, only the body that wears it will get the benefit of it.

Normally you can only have one soulmeld on each chakra, but you'd essentially have twice as many chakras, so if you wanted to create the helmet for both bodies, you could, but it would take two soulmelds to do it.

Thus you could keep both bodies balanced, and just have fewer things overall, or you could have each body have different ones, thus making them both capable in different ways, or you could have one body be uber, while the other one is... not.


At one point one of my players was playing a Dvati, and one of his bodies died. They didn't have access to ressurection, but they did have access to reincarnate. I allowed them to do so to create a new body for the Dvati, but it wound up being one soul shared between a random races bdoy, and a dvati body. He had to keep track of the two different stat sets.

[Psyren]

However, not having to worry about it 100% of the time is still better :smallsmile:

You're looking at that one advantage in a vacuum; you have to balance it against the Dvati's other disadvantages, including the level adjustment, half-HP per twin, mind-sharing (i.e. charm one, you've got them both) etc. So no, I don't think they are better than a normal gish even if one can cast while the other stands there like a lump.


While I have people in the Dvati mindset, how would they do soul melds? I'm pretty sure there were rules for meldshapers with non-humanoid anatomy and i'm pretty sure those rules said you that you have the same chakras just redustributed. So i would think the twins would shape the melds and just both get the benefits of them, except for stuff that let you do SLA's or the soulspark familiar or the other summons.

Dvati do have humanoid anatomy, so no rearranging of chakras is needed. I'm not sure how soulmelds would work though - how do they normally work with multiple-form powers e.g. Fission, Body Outside Body etc.?

[Kyouhen]

Thats actually specifically against their rules, it takes all of the soul's concentration to cast the non-casting twin can't even 5ft step.

Having him escape, heal and come back to fight some more would be smart but since he's a BBEG he cannot possibly do that :smallbiggrin:.

Really I don't see how this is much different from a BBEG that always escapes via fiat or for plot reasons. At least having him live to fight another day this way there is a mechanical challenge or puzzle of sorts built in rather than just haveing him die at the plotcentric moment.

As far as Dvati are concerned, how does dimension door work? both twins are "you" or at least the other twin counts as a "touched willing creature" so
would they both always end up at the destination?
would only the twins within range of the destination teleport?
does each twin get it's own destination?

Furthermore if one twin is bound and the other gagged, can they still cast? If one twin performs the verbal and somatic components remotly can the spells originate from the other?(heavy armor gish race?)

From how I read it it's only specifically against their rules in that the rule exists to prevent you from getting rediculous with spellcasting through two characters. The feat itself specifically allows a creature with 2 heads to cast 2 spells, as long as neither of the spells have a casting time of more than 1 standard action. I could see this working to allow the Dvati to cast 2 spells because they're still basically one being with two heads.

[Sir Swindle89]

Dvati do have humanoid anatomy, so no rearranging of chakras is needed. I'm not sure how soulmelds would work though - how do they normally work with multiple-form powers e.g. Fission, Body Outside Body etc.?

Humanoid is one head 2 arms 2 legs ect.

not 2 heads 4 arms 4 legs 2 heats 1 soul. thats what a dvati has. They ARE one character. They can not live whthout their twin same as we can't live without blood. so even though half of their anatomy is remot it's still the same creature.

[Psyren]

Humanoid is one head 2 arms 2 legs ect.

not 2 heads 4 arms 4 legs 2 heats 1 soul. thats what a dvati has. They ARE one character. They can not live whthout their twin same as we can't live without blood. so even though half of their anatomy is remot it's still the same creature.

That's not true at all: A Dvati can live without its twin far longer than we can live without blood. (In fact, if the surviving Twin becomes somehow immune to ability damage, it can live indefinitely.) And a soul has nothing to do with anatomy.

[Sir Swindle89]

That's not true at all: A Dvati can live without its twin far longer than we can live without blood. (In fact, if the surviving Twin becomes somehow immune to ability damage, it can live indefinitely.) And a soul has nothing to do with anatomy.

and a whole lot to do with chakra's :smallwink:

I suppose if we want to get technical it's more like a human without hemoglobin or some other esoteric thing in our blood. The point is that without the other twin they die. Also it is an anatomical fact that they are born in pairs of bodies. I also looked it up in MoI. It never mentions gaining more chakra's for having more than standard appendages.

It would make sense for something like a hands slot bind to appear either on both sets of hands or on one set. If the only manifested on one set then the "spell conductor" racial feature would allow the other twin to benefit from the meld any way. Additionally you could consider a soul-meld to be a "personal spell" in which case it would affect both twins equally as per the guideline in the "Twins" ability

[Reynard]

...Now there's a scary thought. Dvati Totemist(s).

All the natural attacks. All of them.

[Thurbane]

Yeah. Would have taken quite a bit of foresight to include mechanics that weren’t even invented at the time it was first published. :smalltongue:
Isn't that half three quarters of what optimizing/powergaming is about...adding stuff together from sources that didn't consider each other during creation, and combine them in unxpected ways? :smalltongue:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Isn't that half three quarters of what optimizing/powergaming is about...adding stuff together from sources that didn't consider each other during creation, and combine them in unxpected ways? :smalltongue:
Touché, my good man. Touché.

Seriously, though, that’s what abusive powergaming is. Especially when the abuser knows that there was no way for the key rule to consider the other at all. Dvati twin abilities as applied weren’t sloppily written in not considering invocations and soulmelds. Invocations and soulmelds just didn even exist as a concept at the time. When a responsible gamer knows this to be the case, that gamer should also know that some DM-approved rules-tweaking is necessary.

[Thurbane]

A Davti Binder could be interesting, if you allowed both twins to use (Su) abilities in a round. Also, if one twin dies, you can bind Naberius to stave off ability damage...

Honestly though, while they are an interesting concept, I'm not sure if their crunch is that great. While it would be quite overpowering to let both twins use a standard action each round, as it stands, they don't gain many real benefits from being one soul with two bodies.

Does that make Snyads their opposite - multiple minds in one body?

[DragonSinged]

Just as a note that may or may not help in this conversation, the way we ruled item slots working with Dvati in the game I played them in, if, say, one of the twins were to equip an item that boosted a physical stat (such as a belt of giant's strength), then only that twin would be affected, and it would leave the slot open on the other twin for a physical booster. If one were to equip something that affected a mental stat (such as a headband of intellect), it would affect both twins, and lock that slot for both twins.
This was to keep it in line with the whole 'both twins are affected by mental attacks and whatnot' thing. Charisma is a little tricky, but we left that as a mental stat.
Of course, this is a house rule, but basically outlines my views on the matter.

[Psyren]

Does that make Snyads their opposite - multiple minds in one body?

I think you provided your own solution here. Synads are balanced because the amount of times they can separate their minds and take multiple actions are limited. If Dvati had a similar ability - where they could cast spells/use abilities independently, x/day - that would be balanced and make for a great alpha strike or panic button.

[Sir Swindle89]

Isn't that half three quarters of what optimizing/powergaming is about...adding stuff together from sources that didn't consider each other during creation, and combine them in unxpected ways? :smalltongue:

Really theres quite a few books that if you go through them you can tell the designers weren't even aware of the related content printed earlier. I seem to recall the text on Eldritch galive implies locks had a 1/2 bab rather than a 3/4 or somthing like that. Oh and abjurant champion relying on Mage Armor (totally a conjuration in the PHB)

I understand that they can't (won't learn) know ALL material printed for 3.5 and consider every optimization option but it'd be nice if sources were internally consistent or if related PrC's referenced their spells/base classes correctly.