(3.PF) So I want to build an assassin...

[WarKitty]

But by the time you get it, the actual assassin class isn't that great. So, what class would I use to build an assassin?

A few restrictions:

(1) Should be primarily focused around weapon attacks. The kind you actually buy, not some magic or psionic thing. Similarly, should be able to function in at least light armor.

(2) Honestly, just avoid the full casters. Bard would probably be ok. I just don't want to see "Wizard 20."

(3) No polymorph cheese. Actually, try to keep the cheese down.

Edit: This is an NPC, not a PC. I'm building minions for an organization to keep some 12th-15th level PC's up at night. And I'm not saying no casters, I just don't want to see yet another scry-and-die/love's pain/whatever build.


You see a man in head to toe black studded leather, with only his eyes showing underneath a veil of black gauze. He silently looses an arrow and turns to you, drawing two black swords from his back. You can only presume the glistening oil on their blades is some sort of deadly poison. What's your AC again?

[true_shinken]

With your restrictions, 3.5 assassin (not the pathfinder one) looks like a good choice, actually.
Check the builds in the current Iron Chef to see what can be done with it.

[WarKitty]

With your restrictions, 3.5 assassin (not the pathfinder one) looks like a good choice, actually.
Check the builds in the current Iron Chef to see what can be done with it.

Really? Because the assassin is actually a pretty lousy assassin. Low save against the death attack, and can't make it ranged at all. What good assassin uses melee when ranged is available?

Edit: Just so it's clear, I am by no means anti-caster here. I just don't want to see another scry-and-die wizard build.

[arguskos]

Well... a Swift Hunter would be good, since you get in, shank someone, and vanish rapidly.

A Mystic Ranger sniper is pretty excellent, especially going into Justice of Weal and Woe. Mystic Ranger gets a lot of great sniping spells (thank you Champions of Ruin and Spell Compendium) and Justice gets even more spell slots to use those same spells on! :smallbiggrin:

Frankly, 3.5 Assassin isn't all that bad. Death Attack sucks, but their spells are really good (thanks to a decent list and Spell Compendium enhancing it nicely). Take one level of Assassin than enter into a full-casting PrC that does something relevant (Unseen Seer would be good, if you can swing it; has a great flavor for the concept and gets access to more divinations, like stuff from the ranger list that works well [Sniper's Eye]).

Yeah, I know you didn't want a caster, but really, spells are what's going to give a distance assassin the punch required. I really recommend Mystic Ranger using the arrow spells from Champions of Ruin. I've played it before, and it's a DAMN fine time.

[true_shinken]

Really? Because the assassin is actually a pretty lousy assassin. Low save against the death attack, and can't make it ranged at all. What good assassin uses melee when ranged is available?

Assassins can, in fact, perform death attack from range with a single spell. Also, the group that is the basis for the name assassin killed their victims only in melee combat, so that is probably why the D&D assassin has a melee focus.

[WarKitty]

Well... a Swift Hunter would be good, since you get in, shank someone, and vanish rapidly.

A Mystic Ranger sniper is pretty excellent, especially going into Justice of Weal and Woe. Mystic Ranger gets a lot of great sniping spells (thank you Champions of Ruin and Spell Compendium) and Justice gets even more spell slots to use those same spells on! :smallbiggrin:

Frankly, 3.5 Assassin isn't all that bad. Death Attack sucks, but their spells are really good (thanks to a decent list and Spell Compendium enhancing it nicely). Take one level of Assassin than enter into a full-casting PrC that does something relevant (Unseen Seer would be good, if you can swing it; has a great flavor for the concept and gets access to more divinations, like stuff from the ranger list that works well [Sniper's Eye]).

Yeah, I know you didn't want a caster, but really, spells are what's going to give a distance assassin the punch required. I really recommend Mystic Ranger using the arrow spells from Champions of Ruin. I've played it before, and it's a DAMN fine time.

Partial casters like mystic ranger are fine. Spells are fine. Mostly I just don't want to see another "scry - greater invisibility - silence - teleport - silent instadeath with no save" build. I am well aware that's possible. It's also boring. I'm trying to build a good challenge for some 10-15th level PC's (there will be more than one of the assassins of course).

[true_shinken]

Frankly, 3.5 Assassin isn't all that bad. Death Attack sucks, but their spells are really good (thanks to a decent list and Spell Compendium enhancing it nicely). Take one level of Assassin than enter into a full-casting PrC that does something relevant (Unseen Seer would be good, if you can swing it; has a great flavor for the concept and gets access to more divinations, like stuff from the ranger list that works well [Sniper's Eye]).

The assassin in my game is a Mystic Ranger 5/Assassin 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 3. She kicks major ass. Once the party was discussing how they would invade a tower where weretigers were being slaved by a rakshasa. The assassin discovered the rakshasa also had a harem (she was a female lesbian rakshasa) and she got pissed. So she cast spider climb, went in from a window and killed so much weretigers by her own they decided to talk. Then she got them to revolt against the rakshasa and enlisted them to defend a nearby town. Talk about crowning moment of awesome.

[WinWin]

The Nerazi have an interesting history, connections to the Wu and the Zoroastrian progenitors. Also the Assassins. Believed to have survived several crusades, but not the Mongols.

Paying homage to them in a fantasy game is difficult. Especially when killers from other cultures and popular stories are blended into player expectations.

Ninja, Hitman, Serial Killer and Thugee are just a few basic archetypes with similar methods and abilities. Namely being able to murder people while maintaining a high degree of stealth and secrecy. Their stealth is their main weapon as a surprised opponent is easy prey for a killer.

Any assassin class has to be able to accomodate different player expectations and tactics though. There is no perfect way to accomplish this. Some characters may excell in certain games but not others. It depends on the campaign and the group you are playing with. Rogue is the simplest way to acheive your expactations, but may not be the best.

[WarKitty]

The Nerazi have an interesting history, connections to the Wu and the Zoroastrian progenitors. Also the Assassins. Believed to have survived several crusades, but not the Mongols.

Paying homage to them in a fantasy game is difficult. Especially when killers from other cultures and popular stories are blended into player expectations.

Ninja, Hitman, Serial Killer and Thugee are just a few basic archetypes with similar methods and abilities. Namely being able to murder people while maintaining a high degree of stealth and secrecy. Their stealth is their main weapon as a surprised opponent is easy prey for a killer.

Any assassin class has to be able to accomodate different player expectations and tactics though. There is no perfect way to accomplish this. Some characters may excell in certain games but not others. It depends on the campaign and the group you are playing with. Rogue is the simplest way to acheive your expactations, but may not be the best.

Just to be clear, this is an NPC, not a PC. I want to build a group of identical characters that can make some 12th level or so PC's scared. Something that they tick off the wrong person, and find themselves being tracked by a silent ninja assassin. They kill the assassin, only to find another one in his place. I need something that is at least capable of killing a PC or two. Not something to TPK the whole party, but something to keep them up at night jumping at shadows for a bit.

Think "You see a man in head to toe black studded leather, with only his eyes showing underneath a veil of black gauze. He silently looses an arrow and turns to you, drawing two black swords from his back. You can only presume the glistening oil on their blades is some sort of deadly poison. What's your AC again?"

[true_shinken]

Think "You see a man in head to toe black studded leather, with only his eyes showing underneath a veil of black gauze. He silently looses an arrow and turns to you, drawing two black swords from his back. You can only presume the glistening oil on their blades is some sort of deadly poison. What's your AC again?"
Dude, this is so "assassin prestige class" I can't even begin to describe it, ^^
If you don't want it (and since Mystic Ranger is apparently not an option, as these guys are probably evil) good options are Factotum, Rokugan Ninja (if you are lazy; really simple to build), Scout/Swift Hunter and Ranger.
Most powerful among these is probably the Factotum.

[WarKitty]

Dude, this is so "assassin prestige class" I can't even begin to describe it, ^^
If you don't want it (and since Mystic Ranger is apparently not an option, as these guys are probably evil) good options are Factotum, Rokugan Ninja (if you are lazy; really simple to build), Scout/Swift Hunter and Ranger.
Most powerful among these is probably the Factotum.

First remark: my previous attempt at this was actually not evil. The PC's were just being psycho idiots. Which situation will probably happen again. This is actually my reserve group for the next time they decide that stabbing some random important person is a great idea.

Second remark: Yeah, I like the assassin fluff, just not sure how to make it work well enough to keep a bunch of PC's running. Reasonably well optimized PC's at 12th to 15th level.

Third remark: Alignment doesn't exist anyway.

Oh yeah, will look at the Iron Chef thread tonight.

[randomhero00]

PF assassin sucks hardcore (worst PrC in PF IMO). But it has easy early entry requirements. I'd combine the early entry reqs of PF with the spellcasting of 3.5.

Otherwise, I'd just build a really good rogue and play assassin as more of a career. After all, even a wizard can be an assassin.

It also depends on what type of assassin you want. If its in combat assassin then you'll need as many attacks as you can get and some sort of "pounce." If its out of combat and the death attack thing...um homebrew it. Or just ask the DM to raise the DC and shorten the time watched to like 1 round.

edit: also consider arcane trickster from PF. They are essentially 3.5 assassins. Just ask your DM to lower the entry req by a level or 2.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Also, while it DOSE get spells and other magical abilities, Red Mantis Assassin in pathfinder is a better assassin then the pathfinder assassin and gets plenty of nice abilities plus a very good spell list as well as some other powerful abilities. The only major downside is the setting based fluff(they are a society of assassins from the pathfinder world.) so you may have a bit of work to do refluffing the class to fit your campaign world if you are not playing in the default pathfinder setting. Oh..and it is a caster and has other crazy magic powers so it may not be exactly what you want but I thought I should at least give it a mention..(It allows you to turn into a giant, red praying mantis, for example)

[WarKitty]

PF assassin sucks hardcore (worst PrC in PF IMO). But it has easy early entry requirements. I'd combine the early entry reqs of PF with the spellcasting of 3.5.

Otherwise, I'd just build a really good rogue and play assassin as more of a career. After all, even a wizard can be an assassin.

It also depends on what type of assassin you want. If its in combat assassin then you'll need as many attacks as you can get and some sort of "pounce." If its out of combat and the death attack thing...um homebrew it. Or just ask the DM to raise the DC and shorten the time watched to like 1 round.

Pretty sure I've said about three times that it's an NPC. I dislike homebrewing NPC's class levels because it runs the risk of becoming a DMPC too easily. I don't use things for my NPC's that aren't clearly accessible to my players.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

The Nerazi have an interesting history, connections to the Wu and the Zoroastrian progenitors. Also the Assassins. Believed to have survived several crusades, but not the Mongols.

Paying homage to them in a fantasy game is difficult. Especially when killers from other cultures and popular stories are blended into player expectations.

Ninja, Hitman, Serial Killer and Thugee are just a few basic archetypes with similar methods and abilities. Namely being able to murder people while maintaining a high degree of stealth and secrecy. Their stealth is their main weapon as a surprised opponent is easy prey for a killer.

Any assassin class has to be able to accomodate different player expectations and tactics though. There is no perfect way to accomplish this. Some characters may excell in certain games but not others. It depends on the campaign and the group you are playing with. Rogue is the simplest way to acheive your expactations, but may not be the best.

The Nizari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nizari) are still extant, in fact, there are Nizari practicing Islam throughout the world. They're the second largest branch of Shia Islam, according to Wikipedia.

As far as a build goes, I know you don't want a Wizard 20, but how would you feel about Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Daggerspell Mage 5? This gives you spell stealing, pretty good skills, 6d6+ sneak attack, buffing spells, utility spells, Daggercasting, Invocation of the Knife, and such. He makes a potent combatant, so long as he can get his sneak attacks off, and the only feat you really need is Master Spellthief, and maybe Able Learner (which limits you to Human or Changeling.) and you're set.

Alternately, you can make a pretty potent "Ranger" out of an Archivist. Using Hunter's Eye, Sniper's Shot, and Divine Agility you can be pretty devastating with a bow or finesseable weapon, and of course if you go Sacred Exorcist you can do the whole DMM: Persist thing. You don't really need it though, for targeted action, as you'll likely be ambushing your targets and will have time to buff up before hand. Still, it's more economical to DMM, but also more cheesy. This build also synergizes really well with Knowledge Devotion, since you're already getting Dark Knowledge. Slap Zen Archery on there and you don't need much Dex either. Again, this build gets all sorts of useful buff and utility spells, and works wonders with Sneak Attack. It helps to be an Elf or an Outsider for this build as you only get access to simple weapons, but it's not so feat strapped that you couldn't make a capable Crossbow Sniper (*hint hint*) out of it.

Both builds do better if you find a way to boost your CL (Hunter's Eye provides 1d6/3 Caster Levels, uncapped) and benefit from Knowledge Devotion, since they have all Knowledges. That fits thematically as well, as a proper assassin will have researched the target before hand.

Edit: Maho-Tsukai, where can I find the Red Mantis Assassin?

[true_shinken]

Edit: Maho-Tsukai, where can I find the Red Mantis Assassin?
Here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/red-mantis-assassin).
It's pretty cool.

[WinWin]

To clarify, I meant the Assassins were believed to have been destroyed by the Mongols.

For the OP

Consider Swordsage. Focus on Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand. Decent skills and the manuevers will give your killer a supernatural edge.

[WarKitty]

Completely random idea: every assassin has a bag of tricks, for distraction purposes.

"That rustling you hear in the bushes turns out to be just a housecat..."

[CodeRed]

The assassin in my game is a Mystic Ranger 5/Assassin 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 3. She kicks major ass. Once the party was discussing how they would invade a tower where weretigers were being slaved by a rakshasa. The assassin discovered the rakshasa also had a harem (she was a female lesbian rakshasa) and she got pissed. So she cast spider climb, went in from a window and killed so much weretigers by her own they decided to talk. Then she got them to revolt against the rakshasa and enlisted them to defend a nearby town. Talk about crowning moment of awesome.

How does that work? Assassin specifically requires evil while Jade Phoenix Mage requires non-evil. If it's DM fiat about the alignment, that makes sense. There's no reason a contract killer can't be non-evil and I've personally always disliked the mandatory evil part for Assassin.

[Runestar]

Complete mage has deathsight (4th lv), which lets you make a death attack without having to observe your target for 3 rounds.

[Pechvarry]

I would also consider Complete Adventure Ninja. Assuming they're at least level 10, they can go ethereal. And that has crazy fun applications for terrorizing NPCs, without simply building enemy rogues and trying to justify what happened to that awesome magic gear they were using against the PCs.

I'd actually build about 3 "flavors", so you can play around a bit. But feat layouts can play the same role.

[Rixx]

Poisoner rogue from the Pathfinder Advanced Player's guide is a nice 20-level assassin.

[true_shinken]

How does that work? Assassin specifically requires evil while Jade Phoenix Mage requires non-evil. If it's DM fiat about the alignment, that makes sense. There's no reason a contract killer can't be non-evil and I've personally always disliked the mandatory evil part for Assassin.
Mystic Ranger requires good alignment as well. It's part of the character's development. And really, contract killers being non-evil is a huge stretch of the alignment system.
Good Ranger sees his master betrayed by the Shooting Star Order, loses faith on it, becomes an assassin to get revenge (goes evil). War breaks out, ranger/assassin meets party of good aligned adventurers and finds out she was just being very selfish. She decides to atone and even rejoins the Shooting Star order.

[Coidzor]

^: Mercenaries can be non-evil.

Mystic Ranger doesn't require good alignment as far as I have been able to find of the class. Granted, I don't have access to the particular magazine it originally appeared in. Sword of the Arcane Order, I believe does due to the requirements of joining the Order of the Shooting Star.

My suggestion: Wildshaping Mystic Ranger with a level or two of master of many forms. Never know what form your death will take.

Of course, this would be even better with... like, bluff as a class skill.


Completely random idea: every assassin has a bag of tricks, for distraction purposes.

"That rustling you hear in the bushes turns out to be just a housecat..."

mmm...Hiding amongst a swarm of warbeast housecats, eh? Delicious. :smallamused:

[true_shinken]

Mystic Ranger doesn't require good alignment as far as I have been able to find of the class. :
I have that magazine. It requires non-evil alignment.
Dragon Magazine 336, page 105. It's a great issue all around.

[Diarmuid]

So now that she's atoned has she lost all of the Assassin PrC abilities assuming her alignment is no longer evil?

[true_shinken]

So now that she's atoned has she lost all of the Assassin PrC abilities assuming her alignment is no longer evil?
If you run with a DM that ignores verossimilitude, yeah. I just don't allow her to progress on levels as an assassin, similar to ex-monks.