3.5 Wizard's Self Defense

[HMS Invincible]

What are the ways to protect yourself from getting hit? My DM has nerfed abrupt jaunt down to just avoiding melee attackers who don't have reach, and I banned illusion so I don't get any of those spells. Ideas? My WBL is only lvl 6, but I would like to know my options from start to middle levels.

[Escheton]

First thing I thought was a wizard with improved unarmed strike and improved grapple. The self-defence feats.

Standing behind the rest of the party is a good begin.
Dead enemys can't hurt you...blast em.
Area control spells prevents them from getting to you.
Illusion for misschance and doubles works good.
Mithril armor and decent dex helps.
Summoning bruisers to stand between you and them works.
Being outta reach(flight) helps.

[Antonok]

Retributive Spell metamagic feat will make em think 2ce about attacking you again. specially with the Harm spell.

[Ernir]

Celerity does the trick. You might get the DM to allow the lesser version of the spell, that one is quite a bit more sane than the higher level versions. Promise him you won't make yourself consistently immune to daze, too.

Too bad you banned illusion if you're worried about being gunned down, a lot of the best low-level defensive spells are in there. The other schools don't pick up just yet.

Alter Self is there, try to use it to get a mode of movement your enemy doesn't have (usually a fly speed), it does wonders to keep you safe. Or just crank out some natural armor.
You should have Mage Armor up for much of the adventuring day. A lesser rod of Extend spell is affordable at your level, and it really helps.

Finally, think tactics (God, Batman, and all those other words people like to use when describing intelligently played spellcasters). Your best defense is usually making sure the bad guys are not capable of using their offense.

[GoatBoy]

Stay the hand is a level 2 spell in PHB2, castable as an immediate action, enchantment, and causes a creature to refrain from attacking you for one round.

Halt is in the same book, level 3, transmutation, and does the same thing except the target is unable to move, rather than act.

There's the celerity line of spells in PHB2 as well, which allow you to basically skip to the front of the initiative order for the duration of the round, as an immediate action. You can take move, standard, and full-round actions respectively as you use the higher level versions.

[Escheton]

For alter self: Gargoyle. Nat armor and flight, one of the best low lvl forms...

[gorfnab]

Well, there is this nice handbook: How to shove it to beatsticks - A caster resource for not getting hit (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=331.0)

[HunterOfJello]

A Mithril Shirt with the Twilight enchantment has no arcane spell failure chance and no penalty for wearing it without proficiency. (The penalty is twice the armor check penalty, but a mithril shirt has a -0 armor check penalty.) This would give you +4 AC so you don't have to use Mage Armor all the time.

Abrupt Jaunt should work against enemy spells IF you identify the spell being cast first and aren't flat footed. (Your DM may end up ruling that the spellcaster changes the target after you jaunt though.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless you also dropped transmutation for some insane reason, Blink.

[HMS Invincible]

A Mithril Shirt with the Twilight enchantment has no arcane spell failure chance and no penalty for wearing it without proficiency. (The penalty is twice the armor check penalty, but a mithril shirt has a -0 armor check penalty.) This would give you +4 AC so you don't have to use Mage Armor all the time.

Abrupt Jaunt should work against enemy spells IF you identify the spell being cast first and aren't flat footed. (Your DM may end up ruling that the spellcaster changes the target after you jaunt though.)

He's been saying that for everything that isn't a melee attack that isn't reach. Except I don't get to identify the spell being cast, I just get hit anyway. How important is the armor bonus route? It's only a +4, so my AC goes from 12 to 16. Is that good for lvl 6?

[Kelb_Panthera]

He's been saying that for everything that isn't a melee attack that isn't reach. Except I don't get to identify the spell being cast, I just get hit anyway. How important is the armor bonus route? It's only a +4, so my AC goes from 12 to 16. Is that good for lvl 6?

12 is absolutely crap ac for level 6, and 16 is below average. General rule of thumb: aim for ac that is no less than your level +13. At level 6 that'd be 19. Wizards are supposed to have lowish ac though. It's built into the system. Still, a ring of protection and an amulet of natural armor alongside a (greater) mage armor will get you a good start. Cat's grace can grab you another +2 to ac via dex.

[Jack_Simth]

For alter self: Gargoyle. Nat armor and flight, one of the best low lvl forms...Only if you happen to be a monstrous humanoid. Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) has a rather pesky line: "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form." The Gargoyle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gargoyle.htm) is not Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType), it's Monstrous Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType), a completely different type.

Now, if you are a monstrous humanoid, that works. Otherwise, not so much.

[Gavinfoxx]

My favorite alter self form is "Tren". Humanoid, 8 natural armor, 30 feet, 40 feet swim, +4 hide, 2x claw, 1x bite, multiattack! It's a great form!

[Halae]

Only if you happen to be a monstrous humanoid. Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) has a rather pesky line: "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form." The Gargoyle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gargoyle.htm) is not Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType), it's Monstrous Humanoid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType), a completely different type.

Now, if you are a monstrous humanoid, that works. Otherwise, not so much.

or if you decide to play a tiefling, then you can go friggin crazy looking at different outsider forms you can transform into. one reason whyTieflings are awesome.(or Aasimar for that matter but, well, despite being outsiders they really still sort of don't quite have the awesome to hold up)

that said, there is very few humanoids that have natural armor. Maybe a kobold? It's the only one I can think of off the top of my head, if your DM doesn't let you use the Savage Species version of Half-Ogre, which is considered a giantblooded humanoid
My favorite alter self form is "Tren". Humanoid, 8 natural armor, 30 feet, 40 feet swim, +4 hide, 2x claw, 1x bite, multiattack! It's a great form!where is this beast of a form?

[Escheton]

It;s a cousin of the common Trog I think, it should be in Serpent Kingdom at least

[Gavinfoxx]

It's in Serpent Kingdoms, and is basically a mix of Lizardfolk and Troglodyte.

Anyway, browse the 3.5 alter self forms thread...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0

So basically, you alter self into a Tren, then cast, ohhhh, Scintillating Scales, making that Natural Armor into Deflection, and now it works on Touch AC, Flatfooted AC, Flatfooted Touch AC... Also Spider Skin and Dragon Skin also increase the natural AC...

[WinceRind]

Get insane grapple modifiers - shouldn't be too hard considering Enlarge Person, that tentacle spell, and Improved Grapple if you're willing to spend feats on it. And have Balor Nimbus ready... And if you have some nightsticks its even better.

Of course, if you play a wizard like that you'll probably be looking for a brawl instead of running away. Wrestling a raging barbarian to the ground and burning him alive as a frail dress-wearing wizard is simply awesome.

This is somewhat of a specific build though and not all that powerful against all possible encounters, so you probably shouldn't do it unless you want it.

Do tell me what schools aside from Illusion you've got available. Obvious things like flying or sticking to the ceiling can generally help against most problems - and they have nothing to do with illusion school. But I m pretty sure you have to ban 2 schools for specialist wizards...

If you have 5 ranks in balance, Balance Lorecall (from Spell Compendium) could be helpful if you adventure a lot in enclosed spaces... Unless I remember it wrong, if you have 5 ranks in balance and under effect of Balance Lorecall you can literally walk on walls. Climb some 15 feet up the wall, assuming you're somewhere with high ceilings, and cast away =p

[Incanur]

Doesn't the tren have some horrible stench ability that requires fort saves?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Fly puts you out of reach from melee attackers and grapplers.

Cloak of Displacement, lesser. Flat 20% miss chance. Also shuts down precision-based damage, due to being a concealment modifier. And Improved Precise Shot doesn't negate it, due to being considered a total concealment modifier, even though it's only 20% miss chance, due to the screwy wording.

Really, what were you thinking by banning Illusion? Mirror Image is the best ever.

Other than that... you can always protect yourself by making sure you always go first, and making sure they never get a chance to go next. On the latter part of the equation, you still have Grease, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, and Slow as key 'shut you down' spells at 1st through 3rd level.

Going first can be a bit more problematic. Fortunately, there's Nerveskitter. It's a 1st level spell, and it can be cast as an immediate action to increase your initiative. Even when it isn't your turn. Item enchantments can further increase this.

So, failing being able to switch your banned school to something less crippling, simply a) go first, and b) make sure they don't get a chance to go second.

[Gavinfoxx]

I thought Illusion or Enchantment were viable choices for a banned school?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I thought Illusion or Enchantment were viable choices for a banned school?

Enchantment, yes, but Illusion has some of the best spells in the game. The Best, bar none, if you take three or more levels in Shadowcraft Mage.

[Grelna the Blue]

I thought Illusion or Enchantment were viable choices for a banned school?

I've got a character I made back in 3.0 and still play who made the same mistake. Enchantment and Evocation are apparently the way to go nowadays for most characters.

[Halae]

I've got a character I made back in 3.0 and still play who made the same mistake. Enchantment and Evocation are apparently the way to go nowadays for most characters.

yeah, there's now a lot of blasting power centered in conjuation, so if by some stretch you need blasting then there you go. of course, there's a lot more ffective ways of dealing with an orcish warband

[ShneekeyTheLost]

yeah, there's now a lot of blasting power centered in conjuation, so if by some stretch you need blasting then there you go. of course, there's a lot more ffective ways of dealing with an orcish warband

And if, by some chance, you just have a craving to start tossing fireballs, there's always Shadow Evocation and it's bigger brother. That'll also net you Contingency and the few other good Evocation spells around.

[Incanur]

I'd rate the optimal order of schools to ban as follows: enchantment, evocation, necromancy, abjuration, illusion, transmutation, conjuration. Maybe switch abjuration and illusion and/or transmutation and conjuration.

[Tvtyrant]

I'd rate the optimal order of schools to ban as follows: enchantment, evocation, necromancy, abjuration, illusion, transmutation, conjuration. Maybe switch abjuration and illusion and/or transmutation and conjuration.

I would switch Abjuration and Necromancy myself; you can defend yourself with magic items.


For defense there is always the tried and true method of creating golems to stand in front of you. Cheaper then that is to use the Planar Ally series and stand behind an outsider.

[sambo.]

the simple spell Mount can be used to summon some mobile cover.

[Incanur]

I could see banning abjuration early on but not at high levels. Dispelling becomes so critical. Not to mention mind blank.

[ericgrau]

One of my favorite options is false life. It's a lot of HP for a d4 wizard and it lasts all day. Even at higher levels you can get empowered false life. In general I prefer all day buffs, because most of a combat tends to happen in the first two rounds and I'd rather open up with something offensive unless we get a free buffing round somehow.

Enchantment, necromancy, abjuration and illusion are the easiest to ban as they have the most optional spells. Banning evocation is a load of internet bull. Heck for the indestructible, undispellable AMF proof wall of force alone it's bull but there are crazy good spells at every level too. You could maybe replace single target damage like scorching ray with splatbooks, but that's it.

For that matter walls and other impediments are my favorite options to get both offense and defense in one.

[Callista]

Best defense for a 6th level wizard? A 6th-level meat shield, of course. Preferably Hasted and with Bull's Strength active. Around this level you'll be able to access Fly, and you should've had Levitation for a while. Both useful, but of course not against archers--for those you'll want protection against arrows.

Look into Benign Transposition. It's a low-level spell that will let you switch places with a willing target--i.e., get the meat shield into melee while you stay at the back of the group. Once you can reliably cast it defensively, you can even run into melee, cast the spell, and let your friend get a full attack next turn. It's a useful just-in-case backup spell, and your friends probably won't mind your using it because where you are when you're in a bad spot is usually where their melee guys want to be anyway.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Banning evocation is a load of internet bull. Heck for the indestructible, undispellable AMF proof wall of force alone it's bull but there are crazy good spells at every level too. You could maybe replace single target damage like scorching ray with splatbooks, but that's it.

And on those exceedingly rare occasions in which you actually want a Wall of Force... there's Greater Shadow Evocation.

Seriously, Evocation is worth banning. With a single spell, you have access to everything you'd ever want from that college.

[mucco]

Evocation has the added benefit of being able to scream FIREBALL every now and then. :smallcool: That's why I banned Illusion on my wizard instead.

Well, as a low-level wizard I find there's plenty of protection you can have, even without illusion. Three lv. 1 spells like mage armor, shield, and reduce person give you a +10 AC, as well as a +1 on ranged touch attacks and on initiative. Alter Self gives you a further +6 if you do it into a Troglodyte. Benign Transposition takes care of grapple problems. AC 26 by level 3 is nothing to sneeze at. At third level you have Greater Mage Armor too. Against any ranged attack, it might be a great idea to fall prone. It's a free action that doesn't hinder your spellcasting, and you have a +4 to AC.

Since you said you have Abrupt Jaunt, you're obviously a Conjurer. Take a look at all the various tactical teleport spells available in the PHB2 up until 5th level (Dimension Shuffle is awesome).

Battlefield Control, as a conjurer, will be your best defense anyway. Nothing beats a sculpt Black Tentacles for stopping dangerous foes. You can get miss chance through various fogs (do you have Cloudy Conjuration? Free fog).

You should try to slow melee. Aside from the spell itself, you can nauseate them, make them step on Caltrops (0th level spell that does something? Awesome), bull rush them away from you and possibly into the same cloud they just exited (Melf's Unicorn Arrow, PHB2 I think), summon critters to tank for you. A Ring of Mighty Summons will make your d3 Fiendish Dire Wolves excellent tanks as well as trippers, and tripping is so strong! Oh, and Solid Fog.

If your DM likes using archers, bring Wind Wall.

There's just so many different ways to protect yourself when you are a wiz.

[Maho-Tsukai]

"Evocation has the added benefit of being able to scream FIREBALL every now and then. That's why I banned Illusion on my wizard instead."

Is the fun of that benifit due to shonen anime? If so then I don't see how illusion is not as awesome. Some of the most awesome powers in shonen manga have been illusions. For examples look at people like Sosuke Aizen, Uchiha Itachi and Uchiha Madara. Some of their most awesome powers where illusion based. While this just may be my own personal preferance I find being able to trick people into seeing ot believing something thats not actually real to be just as, if not more awesome then shooting balls of fire out of your hands. If only there was an illusion spell that did the same thing as Tsukyomi.(My absolute favorite Naruto jutsu ever.)

But I do understand banning illusion because you like the flavor of another school and if thats what you want to do go for it. Your character should be what comes first..and stats should be built according to what kind of character you want to play...and if you want a mage who prefers to use magic to sling fireballs rather then trick people then you have every right to build that character. Sure, it may not be all that optimal but hey, if it's fun and dose not suck to the point it's so under-optimized that it's not fun to play then go ahead and do it.

So yeah, I personally would never ban illusion but thats most likely due to the fact my favorite three schools of magic in the game are Necromancy, Illusion and Enchantment. However, if you like the flavor of evocation more so then illusion then just do what you like. As long as it's not too underpowered to be fun then it's ok, and even without illusion your still a tier 1 and enchantment can do a lot of what illusion dose at early levels. Sleep is almost, if not just as good a low level offense as Color Spray and enchantment, like illusion, is a school made to punish things with low will saves. So yeah, many of illusion's defenses like invisibility and such will be missed, but if you still have enchantment you can easily hit things with low will saves where it hurts and do some of the things illusion can do. Oh, and the shadow evocation line is no loss at all since you have the evocation school. You have more then enough defenses without illusion and enchantment can do the whole "mind-effecting" thing just fine so banning illusion dose not make you a CW samurai or trunamer. Your still one of the most powerful classes in the game and even without illusion can do all kinds of crazy things.

[Greenish]

Is the fun of that benifit due to shonen anime?I'd guess it's due shouting FIREBALL! and shooting the enemy with a huge ball of fire.

[ericgrau]

And on those exceedingly rare occasions in which you actually want a Wall of Force... there's Greater Shadow Evocation.

Seriously, Evocation is worth banning. With a single spell, you have access to everything you'd ever want from that college.

I do not think you actually read what I wrote. Shadow evocation wall of force is not indestructible, undispellable nor AMF proof. Heck unlike the real thing a foe who makes his roll might walk right through it too. For that matter the shadow spells tend to suck royally in general and are rarely worth taking as a substitute. Likewise I said wall of force was one example out of a dozen, which show up in all kinds of guides you can google, not a rare example. Though that spell alone is worth it.

[boj0]

I do not think you actually read what I wrote. Shadow evocation wall of force is not indestructible, undispellable nor AMF proof. Heck unlike the real thing a foe who makes his roll might walk right through it too. For that matter the shadow spells tend to suck royally in general and are rarely worth taking as a substitute. Likewise I said wall of force was one example out of a dozen, which show up in all kinds of guides you can google, not a rare example. Though that spell alone is worth it.

I propose a counter argument (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872354/Shadowcraft_Mage_Handbook), a caster can make an illusion that is more real than the actual spell; so my shadow fireball? More damage than your real fireball. Also, if you're betting on disbelieving an optimized illusion, you're in for a world of quasi-real hurt; as a good mage will start dropping your ability to save anyway.

[Incanur]

There are plenty of great evocation spells but they're just not as essential as those form other schools. The conjuration walls can serve most of the time you want a wall of force. Conjuration also provides sufficient blasting. The awesome battle tricks like great thunderclap that evocation allows aren't significantly better than alternatives, and evocation doesn't offer much else. Unique effects like contingency and sonorous hum can arguably be mimicked by shadow evocations - and even if they can't you're not missing that much. A focused evoker works fine but has few options than the focused conjurer or transmuter.

[Coidzor]

He's been saying that for everything that isn't a melee attack that isn't reach. Except I don't get to identify the spell being cast, I just get hit anyway. How important is the armor bonus route? It's only a +4, so my AC goes from 12 to 16. Is that good for lvl 6?

What, has he banned spellcraft? :smallconfused:

There's an upgrade called greater mage armor, IIRC, that gives a more scaling bonus to AC. and it's less one thing and more all of the little things that come together that make it less than satisfactory for the person trying to hit you.

[Psyren]

Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor from BoED are excellent protective spells.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but they require a good aligenment. That may not be an issue for most but people like me who like to be evil those spells are not an option. However, there are plenty of other defenses that a wizard has at his disposle so if you don't want to play some shiny saint and prefer darker characters and/or villains you still have lots of options.

[Aquillion]

I do not think you actually read what I wrote. Shadow evocation wall of force is not indestructible, undispellable nor AMF proof.Obviously Evocation does have some useful things in it (no spell school is totally useless), but compared to the others it's weak. Just about everything you can do with it, you can copy with Conjurations -- Conjuration also has undispellable, AMF-proof effects, and it does a lot of other stuff besides.

And Greater Shadow Evocation isn't always going to do the job, no, but for a prepared caster? It's an obviously superior choice, since it can cover so many options with one spell.

It's not like you'd never use Evocations at all if you had it. But at the end of the day, you only get one spell per action and only so many spell slots, and there's almost always going to be something out there at least as good as an Evocation spell. There are only a tiny number of really good Evocation spells, compared to other schools. And even those tend to cover general effects that you can get elsewhere -- you don't exactly get another Wall of Force, no, but there's a lot more battlefield control in Conjuration, enough that you're not really going to hurt much losing the little bit of good battlefield control you get from Evocation.

(The usual argument in terms of what to ban for those who have to ban a third school is between Necromancy and Abjuration as far as I recall, since both have very nice stuff that you can't entirely get elsewhere. But you also have to consider what capabilities the rest of your party has.)

[Psyren]

Yeah, but they require a good aligenment. That may not be an issue for most but people like me who like to be evil those spells are not an option. However, there are plenty of other defenses that a wizard has at his disposle so if you don't want to play some shiny saint and prefer darker characters and/or villains you still have lots of options.

If you're evil, screw defense! Strike first, without mercy, and with extreme prejudice.:smalltongue:

[Callista]

Why should alignment have anything to do with whether you place strategic emphasis on defense or offense? I guess people who are more impulsive and risk-taking might prefer offense strategies, but that's weakly chaotic at the very most and easily outweighed by other aspects of the character's personality. IMO, if you're going to think about how your character fights, you should be thinking about who he is and what strategy he would use rather than being limited by his alignment.

(With the obvious exception of strategies with alignment implications--I think we can all agree that a Good-aligned guy wouldn't base his strategy on causing crippling pain, nor would an Evil-aligned guy be casting stuff like Shield Other... though he could be forcing somebody else to cast it on him, I guess.)

Anyway, high-level versus low-level is going to be very different for your wizard. At high levels, he can for the most part keep himself safe and contribute to the battle while either undetectable, out of reach, or impossible to hit in some other way. A high-level wizard will be keeping his friends out of trouble more often than not, casting defensive and battlefield-control spells that let his friends do the direct damage that finishes off the monster. (I'm assuming non-blasty wizard; if you want a blaster you should be playing a sorc anyway.)

A low-level wizard, on the other hand, is a great deal more vulnerable. He'll also be helping his friends kill the monsters; but his friends will have to do a lot more to keep him safe as well, and a good deal of his strategy will involve trying to get the fight over with quickly before the monsters can get to him. At higher levels, he can afford to stick around while the high-HP guys do the damage, but at lower levels, he just doesn't have the defenses to try anything like that. Personally I always try to keep at least one useful direct-damage spell around, in scroll form if there's no room to memorize it; while the better strategy tends to be hampering the enemy or helping your friends, there are enough times that the best way to prevent them from squishing your squishy wizard (or squishing your wizard's friends) is simply to kill them first.

You will, of course, always want to keep an escape spell memorized. This would be a spell that either stops them from seeing you, stops them from targeting or hitting you, stops them from damaging you, or simply gets you out of range.

[Psyren]

Why should alignment have anything to do with whether you place strategic emphasis on defense or offense?

An evil creature (especially chaotic evil) can strike with lethal force based on a supposition, inconclusive evidence, a gut feeling, or even no reason at all. Good creatures, and especially exalted ones, don't have that luxury; they must "check their targets" so to speak.

That period of verification makes good creatures more likely to react than to act; focusing on defense therefore allows them to survive a surprise attack and retaliate effectively.

[Greenish]

Why should alignment have anything to do with whether you place strategic emphasis on defense or offense?Because you're an Incarnate? :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Because you're an Incarnate? :smalltongue:

*Lightly bops Greenish on the head*

[Analytica]

Well, as a low-level wizard I find there's plenty of protection you can have, even without illusion. Three lv. 1 spells like mage armor, shield, and reduce person give you a +10 AC, as well as a +1 on ranged touch attacks and on initiative. Alter Self gives you a further +6 if you do it into a Troglodyte.

I don't want to insult or come across as snarky, but to me this solution has the downside that, when I visualize what should be daring fantasy combat, my character is an ugly, foul-smelling gremlin midget. :smalleek:

[Ernir]

I don't want to insult or come across as snarky, but to me this solution has the downside that, when I visualize what should be daring fantasy combat, my character is an ugly, foul-smelling gremlin midget. :smalleek:Add Disguise Self to the bufflist. \o/

[Greenish]

I don't want to insult or come across as snarky, but to me this solution has the downside that, when I visualize what should be daring fantasy combat, my character is an ugly, foul-smelling gremlin midget. :smalleek:Troglodytes aren't much shorter than humans, and look quite a bit like their lizardfolk cousins.

Besides, they don't even have a charisma penalty. :smallwink:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I do not think you actually read what I wrote. Shadow evocation wall of force is not indestructible, undispellable nor AMF proof..

Yes, it is indestructible. And Force Wall can be dispelled and is susceptible to an AMF, as it is not an instantaneous Conjuration effect. As far as a Will save, meh, most things you want to wall off have a craptastic will save anyways, and anything else you'll deal with in other ways.

Actually, if you want an undispellable and AMF-proof wall, Conjuration is your go-to school.

[Analytica]

Troglodytes aren't much shorter than humans, and look quite a bit like their lizardfolk cousins.

No, but Reduce Person:d Troglodytes are. :smallwink:

[Incanur]

Wall of force explicitly can't be dispelled or affected by antimagic field.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wall of force explicitly can't be dispelled or affected by antimagic field.

It can't be dispelled, but I see nothing in the spell description that gives it immunity to antimagic field. However, any mage with access to Greater Dispel Magic also has access to Disintegrate, so I fail to see the distinction.

[Endarire]

How to shove it to beatsticks - A caster resource for not getting hit (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=331.0)

[JaronK]

I always like the minitower method, but you have to be small to make really good use of it (or it won't fit everywhere). Just use a Greater Floating Disk with a little tiny tower on it (3' diameter, just tall enough to hold you). Give it shutters that close most of the way, or open up to 1' windows. Just float around on this thing, staying out of reach of some enemies and being well protected from others (remember, little slits still block line of effect, so with the shutters mostly closed you're safe from many spells). Plus you get the cover bonuses to reflex saves and AC. And it's nice and comfy.

JaronK

[Aquillion]

Best defense for a 6th level wizard? A 6th-level meat shield, of course. Preferably Hasted and with Bull's Strength active.On its own this is sadly not true. One of the failings of 3.5, actually, is that it doesn't really provide a good way for beefy fighter-types to protect squishy wizard-types -- occasionally they might be able to cover you if you're in a really tight passage with enemies all on one side, but in more open areas (or against enemies with ranged attacks) they are basically powerless to provide coverage.

Ironically, wizards are better at protecting fighters than the other way around, because wizards can cast their spells on others, but fighter-types have no real way to apply their HP and AC and such to reliably benefit the rest of their party -- the best they can do is optimize for damage and hope to kill the monsters before the monsters kill someone else, which is not always reliable.

[Dracons]

A feycraft gifthcraft Mithril twilight +1 fullplate. Heh heh. Armor of awesomeness. No arcane failure. (if you get the twistledown suit under it)

[Zeful]

What are the ways to protect yourself from getting hit? My DM has nerfed abrupt jaunt down to just avoiding melee attackers who don't have reach, and I banned illusion so I don't get any of those spells. Ideas? My WBL is only lvl 6, but I would like to know my options from start to middle levels.
Actually your DM is following the rules for Abrupt Jaunt, while it's an immediate action, it's not reactionary like readied actions or Contingency. It can only dodge melee attacks and only if you jaunt before the attack has been resolved.


It can't be dispelled, but I see nothing in the spell description that gives it immunity to antimagic field. However, any mage with access to Greater Dispel Magic also has access to Disintegrate, so I fail to see the distinction.
Antimagic Field states that Wall of Force is immune to it.
Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field[.] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm)

[Callista]

On its own this is sadly not true. One of the failings of 3.5, actually, is that it doesn't really provide a good way for beefy fighter-types to protect squishy wizard-types -- occasionally they might be able to cover you if you're in a really tight passage with enemies all on one side, but in more open areas (or against enemies with ranged attacks) they are basically powerless to provide coverage.

Ironically, wizards are better at protecting fighters than the other way around, because wizards can cast their spells on others, but fighter-types have no real way to apply their HP and AC and such to reliably benefit the rest of their party -- the best they can do is optimize for damage and hope to kill the monsters before the monsters kill someone else, which is not always reliable.Well, obviously you won't be making yourself a good target. Your fighter should be engaging the enemy so that they have to take attacks of opportunity, preferably multiple attacks of opportunity, to get to the wizard. And the wizard will have closed off the enemy's movement options so that they have to try to run across Grease or something similarly tricky to try to get to the wizard, so that they're forced to try to get to him through the fighter, who of course has him right where he wants him--within range of the nice sharp piece of metal he's holding.

Beg to differ with the "apply HP to rest of party"--Shield Other and related spells does that handily, and a cheap magic item lets the meat shield use it. (Or if he's a paladin, he can cast it himself.) There are a lot of abilities that let you protect party members like that, if you want to use that strategy. But really, I prefer setting up the battlefield so that the enemy never gets the chance to test the wizard's AC or HP.

[Vistella]

Actually your DM is following the rules for Abrupt Jaunt, while it's an immediate action, it's not reactionary like readied actions or Contingency. It can only dodge melee attacks and only if you jaunt before the attack has been resolved.
why should it only work for melee attacks?
you surely can make immediate actions in response to a ranged attack or a spell too

[lord_khaine]

Regarding actual defence for the defence of wizard defence...

What is there to block hostile use of wizard dispel magic?

There is of course allways rings of counterspelling, but besides that?

[Greenish]

Well, obviously you won't be making yourself a good target. Your fighter should be engaging the enemy so that they have to take attacks of opportunity, preferably multiple attacks of opportunity, to get to the wizard.Moving out of threatened squares only provokes one AoO (unless you mean to have several BSFs).

[Foryn Gilnith]

A Mithril Shirt with the Twilight enchantment has no arcane spell failure chance and no penalty for wearing it without proficiency.

Depending on the way your DM rules, the following may be a more efficient method:
1) Chain Shirt. ACP -2, ASF 20%
2) Thistledown Suit [Races of the Wild]. ACP -3, ASF 15%
3) Mithral. ACP -0, ASF 5%
4) Githcraft or Feycraft [DMG2]. ACP -0, ASF 0%

[AyeGill]

Explosive Grease.

It works, it's cheap, and it's awesome. Just push people away.

If that doesn't seem to work very well for you, try scaring people away instead! Scare, Cause Fear, it doesn't matter, long as they don't come back.

If all else fails, smack some enlarge person on the big Stupid Fighter and piggyback ride him.

[Killer Angel]

How to shove it to beatsticks - A caster resource for not getting hit (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=331.0)

Sorry, it was already linked in the seventh post... :smalltongue:


And Greater Shadow Evocation isn't always going to do the job, no, but for a prepared caster? It's an obviously superior choice, since it can cover so many options with one spell.


An objection could be that, if you develope a caster from low levels, maybe you need certain evocation spells asap, and waiting for GSE can be deadly. (example: contingency, if you don't have access to craft contingent spell)

[peacenlove]

I would also recommend Haste as a defense. They can't hit you if they can't catch you. Also it buffs your weak save and it gives +1 AC and attack. Lastly it buffs all of the party.

[Coidzor]

Oh, and Silverwood Arcanist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031209a) + Wild Choort Feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) can bolster your defenses by having a mount you share spells with that can fly or at least a mount which can be share'd spell alter self'd into a flying form. Which you can also use to gain cover and save spells on expeditious retreat and flight.

[Zeful]

why should it only work for melee attacks?
you surely can make immediate actions in response to a ranged attack or a spell too

Because it can only get you out of the range of melee attacks. If you jaunt before the attack has been resolved, and aren't behind total cover you are still likely a valid target for a ranged attack, so they may still shoot you, even if you jaunt between attacks in a full attack (which is how you should be jaunting against a melee character, otherwise they can just charge you). If you jaunt after the attack has been resolved, you've simply wasted your jaunt, as the attack has already hit you.

Again, Abrupt Jaunt isn't reactionary, so you can't actually dodge attacks with it, you can only jaunt in a manner that makes you an invalid target for the attack before it's been resolved.

[Coidzor]

I'm still confused as to how one's able to use it to stymie all non-reach chargers if that's the case though.

[Zeful]

I'm still confused as to how one's able to use it to stymie all non-reach chargers if that's the case though.

It can't. Movement is part of the charge action, if you Jaunt between the "movement" and "attack", and are still in range of his movement afterwards he can still chose to close in and attack (since he hasn't completed his action).

Half the things people think it can do, it can't. The only time it does what people assume it can do is dodge a full attack, and only after the first attack has been resolved.

[HMS Invincible]

I'm still confused as to how one's able to use it to stymie all non-reach chargers if that's the case though.

Charge is a 2 part action. You can wait til they move towards you, and then abrupt jaunt past them.

Originally Posted by HunterOfJello View Post
A Mithril Shirt with the Twilight enchantment has no arcane spell failure chance and no penalty for wearing it without proficiency.

Depending on the way your DM rules, the following may be a more efficient method:
1) Chain Shirt. ACP -2, ASF 20%
2) Thistledown Suit [Races of the Wild]. ACP -3, ASF 15%
3) Mithral. ACP -0, ASF 5%
4) Githcraft or Feycraft [DMG2]. ACP -0, ASF 0%

So which one is cheaper, and isn't one of them really hard to get?

[Chen]

It can't. Movement is part of the charge action, if you Jaunt between the "movement" and "attack", and are still in range of his movement afterwards he can still chose to close in and attack (since he hasn't completed his action).

Half the things people think it can do, it can't. The only time it does what people assume it can do is dodge a full attack, and only after the first attack has been resolved.

I'd argue it should work versus a charge if you move such that their straight line course no longer reaches a square they can threaten you from. Perhaps not RAW, but it certainly makes more sense than allowing the charger to make a course change just because YOU moved.

[Zeful]

I'd argue it should work versus a charge if you move such that their straight line course no longer reaches a square they can threaten you from. Perhaps not RAW, but it certainly makes more sense than allowing the charger to make a course change just because YOU moved.

People said the same for arrows for that matter (literally; you can replace "charge" with "arrow" and it's the same argument), and quite frankly it's not good enough. It boils down to the following: Have you Jaunted in a manner that you are no longer a valid target for the attack type you are trying to escape before the action has resolved?

If Yes: You cannot be targeted, and thus "have dodged" the attack.
If No: It doesn't matter when or where you have moved, the attack type can still target (and thus hit) you.

That's it, no interpritation, no bogus "I hate melee" undertones, no further rules necessary. Just a bininary "yes" or "no".

[senrath]

People said the same for arrows for that matter (literally; you can replace "charge" with "arrow" and it's the same argument), and quite frankly it's not good enough. It boils down to the following: Have you Jaunted in a manner that you are no longer a valid target for the attack type you are trying to escape before the action has resolved?

If Yes: You cannot be targeted, and thus "have dodged" the attack.
If No: It doesn't matter when or where you have moved, the attack type can still target (and thus hit) you.

That's it, no interpritation, no bogus "I hate melee" undertones, no further rules necessary. Just a bininary "yes" or "no".

You're arguing RAW, while Chen made a comment about RAMS. There's a big difference.

[Animefunkmaster]

At this level, Alter self is one of your best friends (solid buffs lasting an hour). It is dependant on your form, if your something weird like a half giant, or Elan, or took the otherworldly feat, you get a lot more mileage out of this spell. Also, your familiar is a magical beast (unless you took an elemental variant) which offers some interesting choices there. On a gish, I had a list of forms I used for Alter self, here they are:
Movement modes:

Avariel (winged Elves), Races of Faerun 32
Medium Size
Land Speed 30feet, Fly: 50feet (average) when non encumbered, dive (must move at least 30ft)
+2 Racial on listen, search
+4 Racial on Jump and spot
*Passing 5ft by hidden doors entitles a free search check

Tren, Serpents Kingdom 87
Medium Size, Aquatic subtype ((If dm says you don’t get the subtype this form is specifically better for above ground))
Land Speed 30ft, Swim 40ft
Natural Armor +8
2 Claws (1d4) and a bite (1d6), Multiattack
+4 racial on hide checks, addition +4 in rocky subterranean

Locathah, SRD
Medium size, Aquatic
Land Speed 10ft, Swim 60ft (can run while swimming)
+3 Natural Armor
+8 racial bonus on swim, can take 10

Asabi, Monsters of Faerun 15
Medium sized, reptilian subtype
Land Speed 50ft, Burrow 20ft
+2 Natural Armor
Bite (1d4)


Skill modes:
<Social>
Half Elf, SRD
Medium Size
30ft movement
+1 racial bonus to listen, search and spot
+2 diplomacy gather information

Inspired, Eberron 290
Medium Sized
Land Speed 30ft
+2 Racial bonus on bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, disguise

Changeling, Eberron 12
Medium Sized
30ft movement
+2 racial on bluff, intimidate, and sense motive

<Stealth>

Dark Creeper, Fiend Folio 38
Small Size
Land Speed 30ft
Nat Armor +1
+8 racial on hide and +4 move silent in shadowy areas

DarkStalker, Fiend Folio 38
Medium Sized
Land Speed 30ft
Nat Armor +2
+8 racial bonus to hide and +4 to move silent in shadowy areas

Skulk, Races of Destiny 106
Medium Sized
Land Speed 30ft
+8 racial bonus to move silent and +15 to hide when wearing light or no armor.
Can run while hiding and moving silently without penalty.

<perception>
Avariel, see above

<Other>
Goblin, SRD
Small Size
Land Speed: 30ft
+4 racial to move silent and ride

Mongrefolk, Race of Destiny 99
Medium Sized
Land Speed 30ft
+4 racial on emulating racial requirements of UMD
+1 racial on Appraise, Climb, Jump, Listen, Move silent, Search, Spot
+4 racial on hide and sleight of hand

Combat Modes

<Mobility>
Varag, MM3 168
Medium Size
Land Speed: 60ft
+8 racial bonus on move silent, can always take 10
Feats: Run, Spring Attack

<Nat Armor>
Tren, See above

Phaerlock, Underdark 97
Medium Sized
Land Speed 30ft
Nat Armor +7
+4 racial to balance, jump, swim
2 claws (1d4) and a bite (1d4)

Crucian, Minihb 59
Medium Sized
Land Speed 20ft
Nat Armor +8

<Natural Weapons>
Troglodyte, SRD
Medium Sized
Natural Armor +6
2 claws (1d4) and bite (1d4)
Multi Attack feat
+4 racial bonus on hide, +4 more in rocky terrain


Aside from tactical positioning with the Averal’s flight or the Vaarag’s 60ft movement speed, which should keep you out of most melee situations. You also have the beefy Tren, or it’s little brother the
Phaerlock if a Tren above water is too cheesy for your DM (not to mention Trog, and even Crucian aren’t bad options depending on what is available).

Now for Armor you have the option of picking up bracers of armor (yuck), mithril/twilight/expensive and complex armor, or sticking with spells. Save up for some fancy armor down the road and a fancy shield (probably animated and mithral light steel or add in twilight for heavy, but too expensive imo). What you want to check is a ring of deflection and a pendant of natural armor (they cost the same, so keeping their values at relatively equal amounts will save gold, but the ring is always more important). The pendant adds an enhancement bonus to your nat armor and stacks with alter self.

[Zeful]

You're arguing RAW, while Chen made a comment about RAMS. There's a big difference.

True, but verismilitude isn't a good enough reason to allow the ability to give wizards a free "get out of jail free card" at level one. At that point only casters can threaten the wizard (unless the manage to run down all of his Jaunts for the day), and there's no point in having any villains that don't cast spells, or can't simply one shot the wizard, which as a DM is horrific design bordering on unplayable.

There is no positive to letting a wizard jaunt away from any type of attack as a reaction because "It makes sense" other than "it makes sense". Which is not, and never will be, good enough.

[senrath]

Which is not, and never will be, good enough.

That's your opinion, not a fact. For me, it is indeed a good enough reason to let my players jaunt away from certain things.

[true_shinken]

I just have to point out - if your DM nerfed abrupt jaunt, he will nerf most other stuff. He wants you to be somewhat vulnerable. And if you ask me, he is right in wanting this.

[Zeful]

I just have to point out - if your DM nerfed abrupt jaunt, he will nerf most other stuff. He wants you to be somewhat vulnerable. And if you ask me, he is right in wanting this.

Except he hasn't nerfed Abrupt Jaunt, he's simply playing it by it's actual rules, which don't actually allow it to dodge anything.

[true_shinken]

Except he hasn't nerfed Abrupt Jaunt, he's simply playing it by it's actual rules, which don't actually allow it to dodge anything.

Instantly being out of range for a melee attack counts as dodging in my book.
EDIT: I read your previous posts and I agree with you on the arrow thing (as I agreed in the previous thread). But against charges... RAW is with Abrupt Jaunt. Charges must be made in a straight line - move two squares away horizontaly and unless you are facing someone with Acrobatic Charge (I just love that ability), you're free.

[Psyren]

Except he hasn't nerfed Abrupt Jaunt, he's simply playing it by it's actual rules, which don't actually allow it to dodge anything.

An immediate action can be taken at any time, even during an attack. It would work just like Contingent Dimension Door.

[Callista]

Moving out of threatened squares only provokes one AoO (unless you mean to have several BSFs).I've never been in a party with less than two melee guys. I guess if you had only one or none at all, your strategy would have to be adjusted accordingly.

[Zeful]

An immediate action can be taken at any time, even during an attack. It would work just like Contingent Dimension Door.

No it won't, Contringency actually specifies it goes before the action that triggers it. AJ doesn't, so despite being able to take an action at any time, it can't dodge attacks unless you can make yourself not a target for the attack in question.

[true_shinken]

No it won't, Contringency actually specifies it goes before the action that triggers it. AJ doesn't, so despite being able to take an action at any time, it can't dodge attacks unless you can make yourself not a target for the attack in question.

And why wouldn't that stop a charge attack? Dude is charging you, he just has to roll the attack when he is in range, before he rolls you use Abrupt Jant. He can't change his path unless he has Acrobatic Charge.

[Gavinfoxx]

Regarding actual defence for the defence of wizard defence...

What is there to block hostile use of wizard dispel magic?

There is of course allways rings of counterspelling, but besides that?


http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation

[Ernir]

No it won't, Contringency actually specifies it goes before the action that triggers it. AJ doesn't, so despite being able to take an action at any time, it can't dodge attacks unless you can make yourself not a target for the attack in question.
Abrupt Jaunt is an Immediate Action.

From the Miniatures Handbook, which I believe is the first source to mention "Immediate" as an action type:.

Immediate: (Spell/Ability Keyword and Action Type) A type of swift action (see that entry, below) that a creature may trigger instantly at any time, even when it is not its turn. This action may interrupt other actions, taking effect just before they do. The last immediate action declared takes place first.
Other sources continue to use this reading. Check out the description of how Wings of Cover (Races of the Dragon) is supposed to work for an example of how Immediate Actions.

[Zeful]

Abrupt Jaunt is an Immediate Action.

From the Miniatures Handbook, which I believe is the first source to mention "Immediate" as an action type:.

Other sources continue to use this reading. Check out the description of how Wings of Cover (Races of the Dragon) is supposed to work for an example of how Immediate Actions.

It's the same language in the SRD, which still doesn't allow you to dodge attacks with it. Yes you can use an immediate action anytime, and they resolve before action is allowed to continue (like The Stack in MTG), but unless it can place themselves before the action that triggered it (language included in every ability that can and is missing from Abrupt Jaunt) you can't change the results of other actions.

If you Jaunt before the attack has been rolled, during the attack roll and do not either gain full cover or move outside the maximum range of the attack in question, the attack can still hit as normal. If you jaunt after the attack roll has been resolved, then you have wasted it because the attack has hit and short of a contingency or similarly worded ability, you cannot do anything to change that, with any immediate action, unless that action makes you immune to damage (which hasn't been resolved). Immediate actions have limits despite being able to be used at any time.

[Chen]

If you Jaunt before the attack has been rolled, during the attack roll and do not either gain full cover or move outside the maximum range of the attack in question, the attack can still hit as normal. If you jaunt after the attack roll has been resolved, then you have wasted it because the attack has hit and short of a contingency or similarly worded ability, you cannot do anything to change that, with any immediate action, unless that action makes you immune to damage (which hasn't been resolved). Immediate actions have limits despite being able to be used at any time.

I agree with all this. It doesn't seem to deal with the charge situation though. A charge action is composed of individual squares of movement and an attack at the end. We know that movement can be interrupted and thus each part of the charge here can be interrupted via Abrupt Jaunt.

Lets look at an example:

XXXXX
XBXOX
XXMFX
XXXAX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXCX

Wizard is O, C is the original location of the charger, F is the square the charger needs to charge to to fulfill the straight line and closest square clause if he wants to charge the wizard. Now when he reaches A the Wizard Abrupt Jaunts to B. Now the square that satisfies the "closest square" clause is M but that no longer satisfies the "Straight line" clause since the path C->A->M is not straight. Further even if after the Jaunt the Charge action is completely recalculated a charge from A to B is not valid because there is only 5' separating the two where 10 is needed for a charge.

The only way the charge still works is to recalculate the charge completely from C...but that either implies the movement the character took is "taken back" so that a straight line is preserved or the movement is ignored. Both of which seem nonsensical. I will grant I cannot access the SRD so I can't get the exact wording on Charge but I'm pretty sure I have the gist of it down here.

Also of note here is that charges should be interruptable by readied actions as well. Forget abrupt jaunting if I ready to move using the same example as above (perhaps changing what square of movement exactly I ready to to account for any difference in timing) the result should be the same.

Note this differs from an arrow being fired since, by RAW, there is no intervening "event" between firing an arrow and it hitting where you can interrupt it. In this case I agree that once the arrow is fired it is too late to Jaunt (basically equivalent to the attack roll already having been made argument above).

[Aquillion]

Yes, Abrupt Jaunt is effective against melee, because you can easily leap out of range after the attacker has already moved or charged or otherwise committed themselves in a fashion that keeps them from following (unless they have Hustle or something similar, which isn't common), but before the attack.

But what people are saying is that it's hard to protect yourself from ranged attacks with it, and ranged attacks tend to be more dangerous for casters anyway. It's not useless -- anything that lets you get out of the path of a full attack is far from useless -- but you need other stuff, too.

[HMS Invincible]

Is the majority in agreement with this statement?:
Abrupt Jaunt does nothing versus attackers with reach.

That's what I'm looking at based on what everyone has posted.

[Vistella]

Is the majority in agreement with this statement?:
Abrupt Jaunt does nothing versus attackers with reach.

That's what I'm looking at based on what everyone has posted.

depends on how much reach he has imo
if its only 10ft its enough to dodge a full attack, if he has more, then not

[Aquillion]

Is the majority in agreement with this statement?:
Abrupt Jaunt does nothing versus attackers with reach.

That's what I'm looking at based on what everyone has posted.Abrupt Jaunt can help you against attackers with reach, but is less likely to.

The rules are very simple: You can't Abrupt Jaunt in the middle of an attack, but you can Abrupt Jaunt immediately before someone attacks. Because you have to actually activate it before their attack (unlike, say, Contingency), their attack isn't wasted -- they can proceed to attack you at your new location instead, if they can still reach you.

So Abrupt Jaunt can let you avoid anything that you can 1. anticipate, and 2. get completely out of range of. When you do manage to do that, the person you're avoiding doesn't waste their action, and can choose to do something else (like attacking a buddy of yours or casting a Standard Action spell.)

For the specific example you gave: You can avoid a reach weapon if you can Jaunt out of their reach. So, say, if I'm 10 feet away from you, and you're about to try and hit me with a weapon that has 10 feet of reach, I can Abrupt Jaunt 10 feet further away -- I'm now 20 feet away, and you can't attack me with it.

[HMS Invincible]

Unfortunately, monsters with reach often choose to just charge right up to you, and then abrupt jaunt does nothing. =\ It's pretty lame that it doesn't eat up their action economy though.

[Vistella]

Unfortunately, monsters with reach often choose to just charge right up to you, and then abrupt jaunt does nothing. =\ It's pretty lame that it doesn't eat up their action economy though.

against charges it works, see few posts earlier

[Lord Vukodlak]

It can't be dispelled, but I see nothing in the spell description that gives it immunity to antimagic field. However, any mage with access to Greater Dispel Magic also has access to Disintegrate, so I fail to see the distinction.

Check the Antimagic field description.

Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field
Dispel magic is also a much more commonly prepared and known spell.


I do not think you actually read what I wrote. Shadow evocation wall of force is not indestructible, undispellable nor AMF proof.
How do you figure shadow spells DUPLICATE the effects. Wall of force is indestructible there for shadow wall of force is indestructible

[HMS Invincible]

against charges it works, see few posts earlier

Not against chargers with reach.

[Vistella]

Not against chargers with reach.

is it still a charge if the target is 90° from your moving line?

XXXXX
XFXBX
XXXXX
XXXCX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXAX

charger with 10ft reach starts at A, charges B and ends its movement at C. B jaunts to F befor the attack resolves. by RAW A cant attack B with a charge anymore as its not a straight line

or not?

[Lord Vukodlak]

is it still a charge if the target is 90° from your moving line?


Its still a charge if YOU move in a strait line, the targets location isn't that relevant as long as you can reach them.

[Vistella]

Its still a charge if YOU move in a strait line, the targets location isn't that relevant as long as you can reach them.

hmm well

then still the following could happen:

XFXXX
XXXBX
XXXXX
XXXCX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXAX

then F is out of reach of C :p

[Lord Vukodlak]

hmm well

then still the following could happen:

XFXXX
XXXBX
XXXXX
XXXCX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXAX

then F is out of reach of C :p
Correct, unless C happens to have a 20ft reach, like a large sized spiked chain wielder. Personally I don't think I'd allow the immediate magic from the PHBII.

[Vistella]

Correct, unless C happens to have a 20ft reach, like a large sized spiked chain wielder. Personally I don't think I'd allow the immediate magic from the PHBII.

but if the attacker would be large with a spiked chain, he most likely wouldnt charge all the way up to C, he would stop just when the wizard comes into range. and he could still jaunt away then.

this changes if the attackers has met the wizard already and know he can jaunt, but everything else is just heavy metagaming

[Aracor]

The problem with all of the interpretations that would allow you to jaunt away from the charge is simple. Charging is a single full-round action. Since your abrupt jaunt occurs BEFORE the action (charge), then you'd better be certain that you're moving in such a way that there's no straight line between the original space the charger is in and yourself. Else you move, he adjusts the line of his charge (since your abrupt jaunt happens just BEFORE he began his charge action), and still smacks you. If your jaunt puts you behind someone else, or puts difficult terrain in between you and the charger, then you've successfully avoided the charge attack.

[Lord Vukodlak]

but if the attacker would be large with a spiked chain, he most likely wouldn't charge all the way up to C, he would stop just when the wizard comes into range.

No if the attacker has a 20ft reach he still charges all the way up to the wizard as tactfully that's the wise thing to do. He only gets one attack anyway off a charge so he might as well be sure you can't easily escape on foot.

The wizard's dagger isn't a threat to the fighter his spells are. So getting as close as possible is almost always a good thing, especially if you have mage slayer. Nothing like having a wizard right next you unable to cast on the defensive or simply step away from your threat range.

[Zeful]

No if the attacker has a 20ft reach he still charges all the way up to the wizard as tactfully that's the wise thing to do. He only gets one attack anyway off a charge so he might as well be sure you can't easily escape on foot.

That's not how it works, when charging you stop moving the moment you come into range for an attack, so if you have 20ft reach, you stop 20ft away from your target and swing (and if you can't move 10ft to do that, you can't charge). The only way to charge closer is to A: Possess the ability to full-attack on a charge, and B:Charge with a weapon in hand with a smaller range than your attack (say armor spikes or your fist). And then you charge and deal the attack with one weapon for the first attack, then switch to the longer range weapon (which you can carry one handed (unless you have one level of monk, then you can still wield it with both hands and deliver an attack with you're Off hand that is any other part of your body)).

[true_shinken]

That's not how it works, when charging you stop moving the moment you come into range for an attack, so if you have 20ft reach, you stop 20ft away from your target and swing (and if you can't move 10ft to do that, you can't charge). The only way to charge closer is to A: Possess the ability to full-attack on a charge, and B:Charge with a weapon in hand with a smaller range than your attack (say armor spikes or your fist). And then you charge and deal the attack with one weapon for the first attack, then switch to the longer range weapon (which you can carry one handed (unless you have one level of monk, then you can still wield it with both hands and deliver an attack with you're Off hand that is any other part of your body)).

I really don't think you can do that. You strike with a glaive, move between attacks and then hit him with armor spikes? Are there rules stating this is possible at all?

[Shadowleaf]

That's not how it works, when charging you stop moving the moment you come into range for an attack
Uhm, no. There is nothing in the Charge rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) to support that.

Nevermind me: First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.

[Zeful]

I really don't think you can do that. You strike with a glaive, move between attacks and then hit him with armor spikes? Are there rules stating this is possible at all?
Yes.

Uhm, no. There is nothing in the Charge rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge) to support that.

Nevermind me: First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.
It's bolded.

If you aren't wielding a weapon with sufficient reach (your fist, for instance) you have to charge closer. You can, with Quick Draw, switch between your fist and your reach weapon (a spiked chain) as a free action (and I don't think it actually needs Quick Draw, but I haven't checked the combat section of my PHb in such a long time), and continue attacking if you have the ability to full attack on a charge.

[true_shinken]

Yes.

Care to show where?

[Zeful]

I quoted Shadow who had the relevant post for what I believed was your issue, but it seems I misunderstood your question (which looks to be originated from a misunderstanding of what I was saying).

You're not attacking then moving, you are charge-pouncing and simply changing weapons as a free action between your first attack (with your fist, to get you within 5ft) and the rest (with the spiked chain).

I don't see where you got the implication that you attacked, charged, and then kept attacking, I thought I made myself clear about that.

[true_shinken]

I don't see where you got the implication that you attacked, charged, and then kept attacking, I thought I made myself clear about that.
Thing is - you move, stop 20ft away, you attack with the glaive.
You can't then move 10ft to attack with armor spikes (they don't have reach) unless you have some form of free movement.
Nevermind, you're talking about spiked chain + fist, I thought it was glaive + armor spikes for some reason.