Arcane Strike

[Loki~]

hi there people

1 doubt appeared when talking with my D&D master:

3.5. Complete warrior
-ARCANE STRIKE-

do multiple uses of Arcane Strike stack? like if I were to spend 2 lvl 5th spells; do I get a +10 on Att Rolls and 10d4 dmg on all my attack rolls?

[Godskook]

do multiple uses of Arcane Strike stack? like if I were to spend 2 lvl 5th spells; do I get a +10 on Att Rolls and 10d4 dmg on all my attack rolls?

From what I understand, no, and then yes. You'd still only get +5 on the to-hit, but 10d4 on the damage.

[Starbuck_II]

hi there people

1 doubt appeared when talking with my D&D master:

3.5. Complete warrior
-ARCANE STRIKE-

do multiple uses of Arcane Strike stack? like if I were to spend 2 lvl 5th spells; do I get a +10 on Att Rolls and 10d4 dmg on all my attack rolls?

No and yes, but the hit bonus is typed. Typed bonused don't stack.
The damage is untyped. So it stacks.

[Last Laugh]

From what I understand, no, and then yes. You'd still only get +5 on the to-hit, but 10d4 on the damage.

This. You can super nova if you like :evillaugh: :pretends-these-are-emotes:

[Claudius Maximus]

It does technically work as the others have described (damage stacking), but it was not intended to work that way. The feat goes from reasonable to rather overpowered. I wouldn't suggest doing it unless you are in a game where that is an appropriate power level.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

No and yes, but the hit bonus is typed. Typed bonused don't stack.
The damage is untyped. So it stacks.
Bonuses from the same source don’t stack, typed or otherwise.

And I don’t see any type to the attack bonus anyway.

[Starbuck_II]

Bonuses from the same source don’t stack, typed or otherwise.

Damage isn't a bonus type.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

It does technically work as the others have described (damage stacking), but it was not intended to work that way. The feat goes from reasonable to rather overpowered. I wouldn't suggest doing it unless you are in a game where that is an appropriate power level.

Debatable. You can get +1 attack, +2d4 damage by sacrificing 2 1st-level spells...or you could cast 2 burning hands for 10d4 damage. You can get +6 attack, +12d4 damage by sacrificing 2 6th-level spells...or you could cast 2 harms for 220 damage, and with a touch attack at that. If you already have the spells, they're probably better used for blasting or self-buffing. The only case where it gets ridiculous is when you drop 6 or 7 mid-level spells for +bazillion damage, and even then you could probably get better spike damage by just nova-ing those spells.

[Claudius Maximus]

It's possible for a 10th level sorcerer gish to throw five +50d6 touch attacks around in a single round with this, and still have a decent number of spells left over. He could even do it twice in a day with decent charisma. I think it's a bit overpowered.

Also you can tone it down basically at-will. A set of 20d6 touch attacks could be done at least once every encounter. Most level appropriate enemies won't survive that, and it can be pretty hard for a DM to compensate for this sort of thing.

[Godskook]

Debatable. You can get +1 attack, +2d4 damage by sacrificing 2 1st-level spells...or you could cast 2 burning hands for 10d4 damage. You can get +6 attack, +12d4 damage by sacrificing 2 6th-level spells...or you could cast 2 harms for 220 damage, and with a touch attack at that. If you already have the spells, they're probably better used for blasting or self-buffing. The only case where it gets ridiculous is when you drop 6 or 7 mid-level spells for +bazillion damage, and even then you could probably get better spike damage by just nova-ing those spells.

You're forgetting about multiple attacks per round. Arcane Strike is usually taken by gish builds, who're getting 3+ attacks per round by the time they get 6th level spells, so if they're sacrificing 2 6th level spells, they're getting 36d4 damage in addition to all their normal damage buffs.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

It's possible for a 10th level sorcerer gish to throw five +50d6 touch attacks around in a single round with this, and still have a decent number of spells left over. He could even do it twice in a day with decent charisma. I think it's a bit overpowered.

Also you can tone it down basically at-will. A set of 20d6 touch attacks could be done at least once every encounter. Most level appropriate enemies won't survive that, and it can be pretty hard for a DM to compensate for this sort of thing.

True, though that nova basically takes his entire day's worth of spells; a fairly vanilla barbarian-based charger build can get about 12d6+160 damage every round during a rage by level 8 or 9 (average 370, compared to the average 350 of the 20d6 option). That also compares favorably to the 50d6 option--after 3 rounds, the barbarian is doing more damage and is able to split it among more targets, and will continue to do so for several more rounds. And all of that is before weapon enhancements or other buffs. The gish has better spike damage once or possibly twice per day, but in the same encounters the charger can deal with more opponents and deal more damage overall.

Yes, the charger isn't as versatile as the gish, but that's the magic/martial disparity for you. And of course I'm not advocating throwing tons of d6s at monsters and ruining your DM's encounters, just saying that that sort of damage isn't totally out of line for a dedicated melee build around that level.


You're forgetting about multiple attacks per round. Arcane Strike is usually taken by gish builds, who're getting 3+ attacks per round by the time they get 6th level spells, so if they're sacrificing 2 6th level spells, they're getting 36d4 damage in addition to all their normal damage buffs.

This is also true; I was thinking more of a duskblade-based gish who relies on standard action attacks until 13th+ level.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you want to do gobs of hp damage with spell slots, you're really much better off with a metamagic abusing blaster. See the mailman for example.

[Claudius Maximus]

I'm not saying that it's somehow uniquely powerful compared to other options, bit rather that it is too powerful in general for most campaigns and too unbalanced (particularly in terms of PC damage output compared to durability)for most DMs to handle well. Same goes for the barbarian thing, or anything that strong really.

I'm taking this position not out of some fear of high-op, but because I don't want the OP to return to some regular game and drop 100d6 on the next boss.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'm not saying that it's somehow uniquely powerful compared to other options, bit rather that it is too powerful in general for most campaigns and too unbalanced (particularly in terms of PC damage output compared to durability)for most DMs to handle well. Same goes for the barbarian thing, or anything that strong really.

I'm taking this position not out of some fear of high-op, but because I don't want the OP to return to some regular game and drop 100d6 on the next boss.

That's fair.

[Incanur]

The barbarian has the liability of low AC after each charge, however. If there's meaningful opposition ey may well be out of hp before the gish is out of spells. And I only see around +35 damage (+10 Str, +1 enhancement, +24 Leap Attack PA) per swing at level 8 without a valorous weapon. Can you afford a valorous weapon that early?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The barbarian has the liability of low AC after each charge, however. If there's meaningful opposition ey may well be out of hp before the gish is out of spells. And I only see around +35 damage (+10 Str, +1 enhancement, +24 Leap Attack PA) per swing at level 8 without a valorous weapon. Can you afford a valorous weapon that early?

Like I said, those numbers are before weapon enhancements. +11 Str times 1.5 for a 2 handed weapon is +16, plus another +24 leap attack is +40. Whirling Frenzy and haste allow 4 attacks, for +160 damage overall.

[Godskook]

The barbarian has the liability of low AC after each charge, however. If there's meaningful opposition ey may well be out of hp before the gish is out of spells. And I only see around +35 damage (+10 Str, +1 enhancement, +24 Leap Attack PA) per swing at level 8 without a valorous weapon. Can you afford a valorous weapon that early?

A +2 weapon(+1 valorous) is 8k. Level 8 WBL is 27k. That's 4-5 percent over quarter-wealth, which is what I normally hear as the standard for starting a game. With a crafter and/or organic growth, we're talking closer to 4k, so possible, probable, but not definite.

[Incanur]

+11 Str times 1.5 for a 2 handed weapon is +16, plus another +24 leap attack is +40.

32 Str at level 8? How do you manage that? Of course, even a mere three attacks at 1d12+35 is rather impressive at over 120 damage on average if all attacks hit.


Whirling Frenzy and haste allow 4 attacks, for +160 damage overall.

Haste at level 8 requires outside assistance or an expensive potion habit.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

32 Str at level 8? How do you manage that? Of course, even a mere three attacks at 1d12+35 is rather impressive at over 120 damage on average if all attacks hit.

18 start + racial + gaunlets of ogre power + rage + frenzy.


Haste at level 8 requires outside assistance or an expensive potion habit.

Level 10, actually, as that was the level of the gish under discussion. Boots of speed are good for 10 round of haste for only 12K, out of an expected 49K WBL.

[Incanur]

Frenzied berserker leads to lots of problems. Killing your friends isn't that great at the table. If it's level 10, though, you should have a valorous weapon and be dealing out double damage.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Frenzied berserker leads to lots of problems. Killing your friends isn't that great at the table.

There are plenty of ways around that, Righteous Rage (or whatever that one exalted feat is that lets you concentrate in a rage) plus Moment of Perfect Mind being my favorite.


If it's level 10, though, you should have a valorous weapon and be dealing out double damage.

Yes, you should; as I said, I was giving the damage output before weapon enhancements.

[Baveboi]

I knew there was a reason why I liked that feat! I can spend from Stored Spell Slots, obviously!

I love you guys. You are awesome!

[Kobold-Bard]

This. You can super nova if you like :evillaugh: :pretends-these-are-emotes:

You mean like this: http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z257/kerisrain/other/evil.png

Or this: http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l43/KoolKoal/SoulSplicedVLargeSmilie.png

?

[Loki~]

Well
Lots of things to say here.

Ive read all the posts.

Let me tell you the situation:
In our party there a gish monk+SWIFTBLADE (yeah, full bab, full spellcasting gain) with this feat and about 30 on cha PLUS wizardry rings I,II and III.

Taht means LOTS of arcane spells.

Last week he went through a dungeon with me and the rest of the party (LVL 15th) and faced about 3 encounters before the real boss.

Not a big surprise: after buffing us all and himself several times he still had lots of spells.
I was amazed how with only ARCANE STRIKE and using that variant that lets you change your familiar for a divine one that gives you lots of bonus to AR, he was dealing at a +50AR bonus (aproximated), about 50dmg per attack.
Do the Math, at a 13 of Bab + haste + 15-20 of crit range (arcane strike is weapon damage isnt it?) you got about >200 damage on four attacks. An only 1 spell sacrificed, just that.


Days after this my master told me that if the swiftblade wanna use arcane strike sacrificing even more spells per turn he would be able to increase its damage even more..... and that made me a little mad.



Well...it seem i must learn to live with it..... -,-

[Godskook]

Well...it seem i must learn to live with it..... -,-

It seems you're not familiar with how much damage someone is capable of at these levels, so let's take a look at a mildly optimized build I've been working on:

With 13 BAB, we're dealing with at *LEAST* level 14, considering we're dealing with a monk chassis.

Compare his damage output to this:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=201155

Advanced with shock trooper, totem rager and an Ancestral Relic during organic character growth(And thus, can afford a +1 valorous on his necklace).

New build is now:

Barbarian 1/Totemist 4/Fighter 2/Totem Rager 7

I get 5 new feats(3 from levels, 2 from Fighter)

Strength would then be 22(2 more from level up and a +4 str item), 26 while raging
BAB is 11
Damage per attack is looking like:

+4 Cobalt Rage
+1 Enhancement(+3 with party druid or archivist)
+4 Str (half of +8, full on primary, which is a claw attack)
+11 power attack
+7 Leading the Charge(stance, gotten from item cheap!)
+4 Dread Carapace(+8 for bite)
x2 Valorous weapon

So +62 on a charge, per attack

to-hit is:

+11 BAB
+8 Str
+1 Enhancement(As above)
+2 Charge
-4 Dread Carapace
Total = +18

Pouncing Raging Full attack:
Full attack: Claw +18 melee (2d4+70) and 3 Claws +16 melee (2d4+62) and Bite +16 melee (2d6+70) and Tail +16 melee (2d6+62) and Tail +16 melee (2d8+62)

Average damage if all attacks hit is 493. We can drop the damage down at-will to increase to-hit by +3 just by pulling the essentia out of Dread Carapace. If we wanted to furter boost to-hit, we could put that essentia into the totem soulmeld, which is boostable to +4 enhancement. Not sure how much that hurts damage, but since most of the damage is coming from valorous, power attack, and leading the charge, it won't ruin the damage output by too much.

Does 200+ damage per round still seem so bad?

[Claudius Maximus]

If his character is vastly stronger than the rest of the party, you all need to talk about either toning the swiftblade down, or improving the rest of the party to be roughly on par. Otherwise you get left in the dust and it's a bit less fun in combat. I say you should speak with your DM if the power of the swiftblade is bothering you.

If you decide to beef up the rest of the party this is a good place for advice. I'd personally suggest reining in the swiftblade to a more manageable level though.

[Thurbane]

What is this Valorous weapon enhcancement that doubles damage...let me guess, FR splatbook?

[Dusk Eclipse]

What is this Valorous weapon enhcancement that doubles damage...let me guess, FR splatbook?

Yep, unapproachable east... a +2 equivalent IIRC... but it only works on charges, still a hallmark of the Übercharger and the Hood.

[Incanur]

Leading the Charge was only intended to apply characters other than the one in the stance. Does a DM actually let you get away with that? Also, I believe valorous is only +1. And note that a gish with wraithstrike and a level of barbarian can charge well without Shock Trooper and the associated AC penalty. Arcane Strike compensates for the lower BAB and Str (without polymorph).

[Vladislav]

No and yes, but the hit bonus is typed. Typed bonused don't stack.
The damage is untyped. So it stacks.

Not quite. The hit bonus is untyped. An untyped bonus stacks with everything except itself. So multiple Arcane Strikes only give to-hit bonus once.

The damage bonus, however, is not a bonus at all! It's merely worded as "extra damage", hence stacks with anything, including itself. It's prolly a wording mistake, and they intended both attack & damage to be untyped bonuses.

Well, depends if you're a RAW or RAI person...

[Loki~]

It seems you're not familiar with how much damage someone is capable of at these levels, so let's take a look at a mildly optimized build I've been working on:

With 13 BAB, we're dealing with at *LEAST* level 14, considering we're dealing with a monk chassis.

Compare his damage output to this:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=201155

Advanced with shock trooper, totem rager and an Ancestral Relic during organic character growth(And thus, can afford a +1 valorous on his necklace).

New build is now:

Barbarian 1/Totemist 4/Fighter 2/Totem Rager 7

I get 5 new feats(3 from levels, 2 from Fighter)

Strength would then be 22(2 more from level up and a +4 str item), 26 while raging
BAB is 11
Damage per attack is looking like:

+4 Cobalt Rage
+1 Enhancement(+3 with party druid or archivist)
+4 Str (half of +8, full on primary, which is a claw attack)
+11 power attack
+7 Leading the Charge(stance, gotten from item cheap!)
+4 Dread Carapace(+8 for bite)
x2 Valorous weapon

So +62 on a charge, per attack

to-hit is:

+11 BAB
+8 Str
+1 Enhancement(As above)
+2 Charge
-4 Dread Carapace
Total = +18

Pouncing Raging Full attack:
Full attack: Claw +18 melee (2d4+70) and 3 Claws +16 melee (2d4+62) and Bite +16 melee (2d6+70) and Tail +16 melee (2d6+62) and Tail +16 melee (2d8+62)

Average damage if all attacks hit is 493. We can drop the damage down at-will to increase to-hit by +3 just by pulling the essentia out of Dread Carapace. If we wanted to furter boost to-hit, we could put that essentia into the totem soulmeld, which is boostable to +4 enhancement. Not sure how much that hurts damage, but since most of the damage is coming from valorous, power attack, and leading the charge, it won't ruin the damage output by too much.

Does 200+ damage per round still seem so bad?

I do.
dervish dance + sneak attack + craven + skirmish + knowledge devotion + enchants + STR + belt of battle.

but again, this im not always capable of this.




If his character is vastly stronger than the rest of the party, you all need to talk about either toning the swiftblade down, or improving the rest of the party to be roughly on par. Otherwise you get left in the dust and it's a bit less fun in combat. I say you should speak with your DM if the power of the swiftblade is bothering you.

If you decide to beef up the rest of the party this is a good place for advice. I'd personally suggest reining in the swiftblade to a more manageable level though.



I hardly believe so.
He wont never talk about changes at this point, neither do that to the swiftblade or improve somehow the others, no matter if allowed some overpower things.
So meh, live with it
so yeah

[Godskook]

Leading the Charge was only intended to apply characters other than the one in the stance. Does a DM actually let you get away with that? Also, I believe valorous is only +1. And note that a gish with wraithstrike and a level of barbarian can charge well without Shock Trooper and the associated AC penalty. Arcane Strike compensates for the lower BAB and Str (without polymorph).

1.Leading the Charge's wording, near as I can tell, does not include the one in the stance, and I see no intention that it should not include the one in the stance. I see possibility for the RAW to go either way(but near as I and other's I've asked can tell, it works), but I think RAI would work.

2.With how cheap the item is, I can afford a few by this level, and pass them around to non-TOB party members to affect me.

3.Valorous is indeed only a +1


I do.
dervish dance + sneak attack + craven + skirmish + knowledge devotion + enchants + STR + belt of battle.

but again, this im not always capable of this.

So you're aware of this level of optimization and...just don't like it? Or is it that he's getting his 'power' too easily in your opinion?

In any case, while RAW works like that, it would not be unreasonable to rule that the feat does not stack with itself. As a reference to this being considered a 'balanced' ruling, you can quote the Test of Spite rule set, which I use as a Pirate's Code in games I DM.

[faceroll]

Debatable. You can get +1 attack, +2d4 damage by sacrificing 2 1st-level spells...or you could cast 2 burning hands for 10d4 damage. You can get +6 attack, +12d4 damage by sacrificing 2 6th-level spells...or you could cast 2 harms for 220 damage, and with a touch attack at that. If you already have the spells, they're probably better used for blasting or self-buffing. The only case where it gets ridiculous is when you drop 6 or 7 mid-level spells for +bazillion damage, and even then you could probably get better spike damage by just nova-ing those spells.

But when combined with a full attack using other damage increasers, like power attack, it's quite nice. Polymorphed into something with 4+ arms, then use girallon's blessing for another 2 arms, and the PA returns from the +2 attack is more than whatever craptacular damage you get from spending two rounds spamming burning hands.

Arcane Strike's power comes from savings in action costs.


32 Str at level 8? How do you manage that?

I can get 40 str at ECL 2. Half-minotaur water orc barbarian with reckless rage. 18 base +12 template +4 race +6 rage. But that's pretty high order cheese. I'm not sure how to get more than that, though.

[pilvento]

Hi! im the monk swiftblade who plays with mr loki. dont worry he is just jealous, he leaved the boss fight to save his girlfriend (npc girlfriend) and leaved the rest of the party vs the dragon, in the end only i was alive and i killed the dam boss but it healled full (master wanted us to die to reveal some plot) and it was the first time i was able to unleash my full potential.

im not OP and the party is not UP cause we have: loki, the craven sneak skirmish 1 thousand cuts monster. Mesik, the halfling master thrower 16 atacks each round + sneaks + bonuses (master denied 2 craven feats in the party), Erekose who is a 300hp kensai who can one shot anithing using leap atack+knockback+kensai and intems str bonuses.

Still i like this post makes me feel so powerfull, and btw swiftblade is not a full caster PrC gives 6 lvls out 10.

[Mikka]

Does anyone know what familiar / alternative class feature hes talking about? and what is AR? Attack. . ratio? rating? xO


I was amazed how with only ARCANE STRIKE and using that variant that lets you change your familiar for a divine one that gives you lots of bonus to AR