[3.5] Paladin spell: Virtue

[DwarfFighter]

Looking at the Paladin spell list, this spell seems rather feeble:

http://dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Virtue

Sure it fits into the whole Paladin package, but it just seems like a waste of space considering that the Paladin needs to actually prepare the spell in advance.

Am I missing something obvious here?

-DF

[Runestar]

You aren't missing anything, it is an undeniably worthless spell for a paladin. I never really used it even as a clerical cantrip, and it competes for precious 1st lv slots with other better spells like lesser restoration or divine favour.

[hewhosaysfish]

*looks at Virtue*
*looks at Cure Light Wounds*
*looks at Virtue*
*looks at Cure Light Wounds*
*looks at Virtue*
*looks at Cure Light Wounds*
....
*looks at Virtue*
*looks at Cure Light Wounds*
...
Maybe if you knew there was this one fight coming up that the party really needed to prebuff for as much as possible... But didn't need the Paladin to heal during. And had no other source of temporary hp.

Maybe?

[T.G. Oskar]

Virtue is there for no reason other than the Paladin not having 0 level spells, and the devs fearing not having enough 1st level spells for the class, fearing giving some useful spells would make the Cleric cringe (seriously, why they couldn't give Pallies Shield of Faith?)

The irony is that not even a Cleric would use it. Aid, which is a 2nd level spell, provides better temporary HP and something else, and it serves sort of a mix between Bless and Virtue. Paladins should have gotten Aid, even if at 2nd level, if only because a Cleric has little reason to prepare Aid but a Paladin has several reasons why it must do so. What's worse is that there's no 1st level spell that I recall (other than False Life, and that's a Wizard spell) that grants temporary hit points, and thus justify adding Virtue as a 1st level Paladin spell.

So, it's more of a big blunder on the devs' part, such as making Paladins and Rangers gain 1 caster level for every two spell levels; they wouldn't have more power than a Cleric or Wizard anyways, so it's quite silly. In fact, porting some more spells from the Cleric and Druid spell lists to Pallies and Rangers (respectively) would grant some more power to them; as it stands, that's why most people ditch the spells of the classes and rarely use them. It's also part of the early devs' mentality of making classes with lots of dead levels and thinking half spellcasting meant half caster levels and really stunted spellcasting progression (unlike, say, Duskblade which is a great half-caster class).

Heck, not even Battle Blessing saves it (because it's just ONE frickin' temp HP, compared to Aid which would be quite useful cast as a swift action before attacking).

[Elric VIII]

Just my 2cp, I often play Clerics (optimized and not) and I never see fit to use a 2nd level spell slot on Aid. I would rather an extended Shield of Faith for that spell slot. Aid should be a 1st level Paladin spell. Virtue should be erased from PHB.

[Runestar]

Mass aid, however, is one of my favourite 4th lv spells.:smallbiggrin:

Plus, I played a ghaele once, and he got access to aid at-will. So there was little reason not to go into battle with aid active, unless we were suddenly taken by surprise, because I could refresh it ever so often.

[T.G. Oskar]

Just my 2cp, I often play Clerics (optimized and not) and I never see fit to use a 2nd level spell slot on Aid. I would rather an extended Shield of Faith for that spell slot.

Well, thing is, Bless provides what Aid does already, except Aid provides temporary hit points as well. The fact that it's a touch spell and that by the time you might get a Bard to provide better morale bonuses makes Aid less interesting than Bless (and in fact, in the presence of a Bard Bless is useless as well).

Extended Shield of Faith is just awesome, so it's not like it has no reason for it though. It's better than most other 2nd level spells, anyways, not just Aid.


Aid should be a 1st level Paladin spell.

A-frickin'-gree. There's a few spells that were made with the Paladin in mind (Shield of Faith, Aid, Righteous Might, I'd say Entropic Shield, Magic Vestment, perhaps even Spell Resistance) and some spells on the Paladin spell list that should have appeared earlier (Dispel Magic, Shield Other, Cure Moderate/Serious Wounds) but that they don't appear. But that's what happens when you see the Paladin through the lens of years of 3.5, instead of the lens of years of 2E AD&D.


Virtue should be erased from PHB.

I'd make it a 1st level spell on both Cleric and Paladin, and boost it so that it gives something along the lines of the Vigor power (5 temporary hit points plus 5 per caster level, up to a specified limit) or making it sorta like the Virtue spell on DDO: Eberron Unleashed (10 HP, +2 per caster level up to a limit of 20, and Paladins get CL equal to their class level there in a 1:1 ratio so you get 20 temp. HP at level 9, by the time in which Aid would come to play if it were a 2nd level spell). If the latter were to happen (Virtue as if in DDO), then Aid would reasonably remain as a 2nd level spell; otherwise, it could be erased from the Paladin spell list and have Aid as a 1st level spell. It's just that orisons are not as powerful as cantrips, where stuff like Prestidigitation has millions of uses but Guidance only one or two.

[Elric VIII]

Mass aid, however, is one of my favourite 4th lv spells.:smallbiggrin:

Plus, I played a ghaele once, and he got access to aid at-will. So there was little reason not to go into battle with aid active, unless we were suddenly taken by surprise, because I could refresh it ever so often.

Mass Aid is good because its caster level modifier is increased and it's only a 3rd level spell (at lest by the SPC version).

[DwarfFighter]

Mass aid, however, is one of my favourite 4th lv spells.:smallbiggrin:


Wouldn't it be more along the lines of a Fallen Paladin to give everybody aids?

:smallwink:

-DF

[Runestar]

Mass Aid is good because its caster level modifier is increased and it's only a 3rd level spell (at lest by the SPC version).

Yeah, 3rd lv, brain fart there. :smalltongue:

[Amphetryon]

For what it's worth, I let Virtue provide 1 temporary HP/round for up 5 rounds, based on CL. It's still bad, but at least has a niche use rather than a niche useless.