PDA

View Full Version : New group - could be a little difficult.



riddles
2010-12-14, 08:20 AM
my roleplay group has disintegrated due to the various and many personality defects in two of our fellow players.

this leaves my dm, myself and two newbie players we brought into the group a couple of months ago. The newbies enjoyed themselves so much that they started their own group with 2 other players.

Now, rather than have 2 separate groups, I and my DM are going to attend some of their sessions to see if we'd all be a good fit together. I hope we can as it will give my DM a well earned break to be a player again and we can fit into a rotating DM structure, rather than 8 month campaigns where one person does a heck of a lot of work as a DM and has no playing time.

So...the problem is, given that the group we are joining has little to no knowledge of the system (they know the basics, except they haven't got any spellcasters and haven't used spellcasting at all), what the heck do we play characterwise?

Newbie DM
Newbie player 1: rogue
Newbie player 2: fighter
Newbie player 3: ranger

My DM is going to play a wizard with primarily utility and battlefield control spells and will likely not overshadow the party. they've started at level 1.

I was thinking about a bard - using some choice options outside of core for IC boosts (inspiration boost and song of the heart). That way i'm more of a force multiplier.

Alternatively, a crusader focused on party support and meat walling - divine spirit and white raven manuevers over stone dragon. this should give them tactical advantages (and they are wargammers, so this should be nice for them), but also keep them alive!

perhaps i could combine this with white raven song. take battlecaster etc. although i'm open to other options. i've always wanted to play a dread necromancer, for example.

What i want to enlighten them of early (as i'd like to keep playing with them) is:
1. that ToB is good and useful
2. Clerics are not healbots, there are other ways to handle healing

I don't HAVE to stick to core, but it would be nice. but mainly, i don't want to ruin this dm and groups early experiences. i'm not a **** player by any means, but i do like me some power in my classes, just in case i need it.

so, does anyone who's been in a similar situation have some advice?

My stats rolled, btw, are 13, 17, 7, 9, 10, 15

Halna LeGavilk
2010-12-14, 08:25 AM
I would go with the bard and move into Sublime Chord at later levels. The biggest problem isn't the newbie players- it's the newbie DM. The players -I think- could probably handle a stronger character, but it might turn the DM off if you just make a really dominant character.

I'm not really into ToB, but if you go the bard route, obviously, put 17 in Cha, 15 in Int, and the 13 in Dex. Put the 7 in Wis and be Elan. :smallbiggrin: Go into Sublime Chord or somesuch at later levels.

true_shinken
2010-12-14, 08:41 AM
I just have to point out how I find weird how many people act as if being DM is a bad thing. I love DMing, maybe more than playing.

kestrel404
2010-12-14, 08:53 AM
I think that the GM has the right of it, and so do you. Both Bard and Crusader are good ideas. Why not both? There are a number of bard/crusader builds available. Add a feat to shape the soulmeld that gives you a lay-of-hands like ability and you can be the party's healer without any real healing spells as well.


I just have to point out how I find weird how many people act as if being DM is a bad thing. I love DMing, maybe more than playing.

Most people have a hard time of it. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/12/13/) Being the player for a while is like taking a well-earned break. I wouldn't give up GMing completely, but I like to be a player too.

true_shinken
2010-12-14, 08:55 AM
Most people have a hard time of it. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/12/13/)
LOL, that was awesome.

Oh, about the Bard thing - you can't get Song of the Heart at level 1. It requires inspire compentence.

riddles
2010-12-14, 09:55 AM
LOL, that was awesome.

Oh, about the Bard thing - you can't get Song of the Heart at level 1. It requires inspire compentence.

indeed you can't, but it will be on my build stub somewhere.



As for dming, its a lot of work. I enjoy it, my dm enjoys it. But sometimes you need a break to play, not have the stress of planning the entertainment for everyone else etc. Rotating dms allows you to have your cake and eat it.

Moving into a sublime chord would be interesting. But having 9th level spells in a game with newbie players and a dm is...unappealing. And I think this campaign may only run to level 10, so pulling some tricks out of the bag earlier would be nice - buffing song, healing strikes, white raven tactics, marshall auras (if I chose to take them), draconic healing (dip into dragon shaman).

I've read bard/marshall/crusader builds. Not sure how I feel about marshall auras. Motivate dex and motivate cha would be great. I am distinctly underwhelmed by the major auras, though. Anyone got a decent bard/crusader build stub?

Escheton
2010-12-14, 10:22 AM
Start off as bard, then switch to marshal, giving them a different kind of boost. But still keeping your own relative power/spotlight-lvl low.
Then at lvl 5 take a crusaderlvl and start using more juice.
At that point their own characters have grown to the point that they would be less intimidated by a good build, so to speak.

Same idea for a wizardbuild, don't start fireballing everything at lvl 5.
It's basic gaming etiquete, and the fact that you care so much you actually put up a thread here implies you already have plenty of feel for that anyways.
So yeah...redundant post much then? Hmm...

true_shinken
2010-12-14, 10:43 AM
Moving into a sublime chord would be interesting. But having 9th level spells in a game with newbie players and a dm is...unappealing. And I think this campaign may only run to level 10
Enter Lyric Thaumaturge, Sublime Chord's younger cousin. :smallcool:

kestrel404
2010-12-14, 11:15 AM
Dragonborn (wings or Heart) Ghost Elf (+2 cha, -2 dex, favored class bard)
Bard 3/Marshal 1/Crusader 1/Mythic Examplar (Reikhardt) 10

Feats: 1: Draconic Aura (Toughness), 3: Song of the Heart, 6: Shape Soulmeld (Lifebond Vestments)
Extra Music might be a good idea, as would Melodic casting. If you're considdering more Incarnum, look towards Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt) and Bonus Essentia (not necessary if you dip Totemist). Also, if you look in Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic, most of the feats that require you to be dragonblooded (dragonborn are) tend to be pretty nice.

Draconic Aura and Lifebond Vestments both scale with level (your 'meldshaper level' is calculated the same way as your initator level, i.e. your meldshaper class levels plus 1/2 other levels round down), which is always nice to see in a feat.

Dragonborn get to choose one draconic aspect at character creation. Wings will get you flight by level 6. Heart will get you a breath weapon that starts at 1d8 and goes up by a d8 damage every 3rd level (3,6,9,etc.). Both are useful to this build.

The key here is the Mythic Exemplar - it stacks with bard level for inspire courage (and gives you an extra use), it advances the Marshal's Aura ability at levels 3,5,7 and 9 (giving you a major aura and some options for aura choices). It also has 4/10 spellcasting progression, medium BAB, average skill points (4+int) and grants some useful abilities.

The reason you want Crusader is for the Martial Spirit stance (heal 2 HP to you or ally each time you hit something in combat) and later the Thicket of Blades stance (any movement provokes an AoO from you, including 5-foot steps and teleportation) - you'll need to take a second level of crusader or spend a feat to pick up the latter.

riddles
2010-12-14, 01:25 PM
Start off as bard, then switch to marshal, giving them a different kind of boost. But still keeping your own relative power/spotlight-lvl low.
Then at lvl 5 take a crusaderlvl and start using more juice.
At that point their own characters have grown to the point that they would be less intimidated by a good build, so to speak.

good plan. Means they lack basic healing for the first 4 levels or so (the first divine spirit stance and crusader strike were my plan for that). Although there's no reason I can't convince them to find clw wands.

Original plan was:
1. Bard
2. Crusader
3. Bard
4. Bard
5. Marshal
6. Marshal
7. Crusader

Yours is better from a power balance perspective, mine might keep them alive til they get there...

Vemynal
2010-12-14, 01:42 PM
I just have to point out how I find weird how many people act as if being DM is a bad thing. I love DMing, maybe more than playing.

I hated the idea because I thought "I have all those cool characters I come up with that I want to be able to play in a game =("

then while DMing I realized thats exactly what the DM does, play everything else. the villains, the townsfolk, the random people they run into.

Works especially well since a lot of my characters were evil anyways ;)

riddles
2010-12-15, 09:10 AM
Re-rolled stats at the DMs advice (though god knows why)
Str 14
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 9
Wis 8
Cha 17

Build will be as follows:
1. Bard (Lingering song, Extra music)
2. Crusader
3. Bard (Stone power)
4. Marshal
5. Marshal
6. Bard (song of the heart)
7. Marshal
8. Crusader
9. Crusader (song of the white raven)
10. Crusader

I don't have the dex for combat reflexes or battlefield control, so manuveurs will be white raven and devoted spirit focused, with the odd stone dragon. the 3rd level of Crusader gives an extra manuveur, which will be white raven tactics. I'll get thicket of blades as the second stance but without being AoO focused, i may not need it that much.

marshal auras will be: motivate DEX, Art of War (so i can demonstrate some combat manuveurs to the new guys, be they successful or not) and either resiliant troops or motivate attack (depending on whether the DM has a handle on throwing saving throws at us yet). Though a minor aura bonus for will saves might be useful as the newbie players all have poor will saves.


Is it worth going for a reach weapon (it will at least show the DM the reach rules), or should I go sword and board and make use of the only counter I get - shield block (which i don't think you can use without a shield, RAI)?

Another option is to drop marshal from the build, give a lower score to cha (10 or 14) and have a dex score worth making AoO for.

I'll get my hands on some pearls of power for inspirational boost, but I don't envisage myself casting a huge amount of spells.

Jornophelanthas
2010-12-15, 12:37 PM
Have you asked the DM (the one actually running the campaign you're going to play in, not your friend who will be a player in this campaign) for his/her opinion?

Is this DM comfortable with the amount of multiclassing you intend to do? And with using classes from sourcebooks all over the place? Be sure to ask your DM's permission for every class, feat or spell you wish to choose that is outside of the core books.

My advice is to take it slow, and do not multiclass more than the newbie players and DM are comfortable with. If you want to have a lot of options, pick your spells accordingly, but don't rush ahead and make a character more complex than the DM and your fellow players can handle. Even if you can handle it yourself.

riddles
2010-12-16, 05:33 AM
Have you asked the DM (the one actually running the campaign you're going to play in, not your friend who will be a player in this campaign) for his/her opinion?

Is this DM comfortable with the amount of multiclassing you intend to do? And with using classes from sourcebooks all over the place? Be sure to ask your DM's permission for every class, feat or spell you wish to choose that is outside of the core books.

My advice is to take it slow, and do not multiclass more than the newbie players and DM are comfortable with. If you want to have a lot of options, pick your spells accordingly, but don't rush ahead and make a character more complex than the DM and your fellow players can handle. Even if you can handle it yourself.

Yes. She's a member of my regular group and so knows the sorts of characters I build. In my defence, this is a buffer, with crusader levels thrown in for healing and party boosting manuveurs. I won't be stealing spotlight from anyone, just acting as an enabler. This could possibly be achieved by bard only, but healing will be important to these guys. Dropping marshal from the build drops the party boosting but also the boosting of my own combat skills (trip, disarm etc).
Given that the group are missing 2 archetypes - arcane and divine spellcasters - I could have been much worse