3.5, Ninja or rogue, and why?

[Sway]

Okay... So I would very much like to be able to play the shadowy, sneaky character once more. This has been impeded heavily by our crazy Hack and Slash DM, but I will still keep trying. Right now, I am wondering which is better, Ninja or rogue. The Ninja seems to be not as great, but I cannot stop thinking about those moments of invisability, and later ethereal jaunts. They are extremely apealing. But... I like the whole rogue, tons of skill points, flanking sneak attack stuff. Advice?

[dextercorvia]

Okay... So I would very much like to be able to play the shadowy, sneaky character once more. This has been impeded heavily by our crazy Hack and Slash DM, but I will still keep trying. Right now, I am wondering which is better, Ninja or rogue. The Ninja seems to be not as great, but I cannot stop thinking about those moments of invisability, and later ethereal jaunts. They are extremely apealing. But... I like the whole rogue, tons of skill points, flanking sneak attack stuff. Advice?

Rogue. Sneak Attack beats Sudden Strike. There was a thread a few days ago.

[LordBlades]

If you have access to Tome of Battle you might want to check swordsage out.

[dextercorvia]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177461) it is.

It is mainly about invisible blade. But WeeFreeMen does state the case for Rogue fairly well.

[Person_Man]

Both suck. Rogue is better. And you can get Invisibility and Etherealness with magic items. If you go with Rogue, then your standard feats are the Two Weapon Fighting tree, Weapon Finesse, Staggering Strike, Craven, and Darkstalker. Key combat Skills are Spot, Listen, Tumble, Sleight of Hand, and Use Magic Device. If you want an alternative to Rogue, consider the Factotum, Swordsage, Psychic Rogue, Binder, Incarnate, or Beguiler.

[Curmudgeon]

Both suck. Rogue is better.
Rogue doesn't have to suck, but I admit it takes significant effort to address shortcomings of the class. Conversely, I know of very few ways to deal with Ninja class problems, so that's a rather hopeless cause.

The biggest problem with making a shadowy, sneaky character is getting the vital Hide in Plain Sight ability. There are multiple solutions to this problem. Shadowdancer is good but expensive; you go that route by buying Mobility as an armor enhancement which grants the feat, and getting Spring Attack as your next feat to improve the return on the investment.

In a Forgotten Realms-specific campaign, their version of the Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave (page 152) is Supernatural ─ the equivalent of the Assassin/Shadowdancer ability for +1 LA. In a FR campaign with LA buyoff this would be my top choice.

Another option is the poor HiPS from a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. That requires adding concealment, and getting Deeper Darkness cast on your weapon tip will accomplish that. Then you'll need a wand of Ebon Eyes to let you see through the magical darkness and keep it from interfering with your sneak attacks.

You could also opt for the Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) variant, though that HiPS comes in much too late for my tastes.

One other possibility is to go Rogue/Monk with the Ascetic Rogue multiclassing feat (Complete Adventurer). Two levels of Monk will drop your sneak attack by 1d6 but get you several useful things:

Improved Unarmed Strike, which is a prerequisite for Snap Kick (Tome of Battle). Snap Kick gives you an extra attack whenever you make a melee attack, including standard action attacks and attacks of opportunity. This is much superior to Two-Weapon Fighting.
Decent unarmed damage, which is easy to boost to substantial levels with Use Magic Device and a wand of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon).
The Invisible Fist alternative class feature (Exemplars of Evil, page 21) trades Monk level 2 evasion for the ability to turn invisible for a full round, every 3 rounds. You'll pick up evasion at Rogue level 2 anyway, so this is an excellent trade.
As a Monk you can train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide) to make 10' adjustments whenever you would be allowed to make a 5' step. This allows making full attacks and then stepping back 10' so most enemies won't be able to make full counterattacks.
Bonus feats, which may or may not be useful. But add some money for NPC spellcasters to do the Dark Chaos Shuffle and you can guarantee you'll get some useful feats. :smallwink:

[Greenish]

The biggest problem with making a shadowy, sneaky character is getting the vital Hide in Plain Sight ability. There are multiple solutions to this problem. Shadowdancer is good but expensiveIf you can wait for a few levels, HiPS from Ninja Spy (OA PrC) comes online on ECL 11. It also gets a couple of free EWPs over the levels, Poison Use, +20 to Tumble, Balance, Climb & Jump and take 10 on those skills, and a few other nifty things.

So you could be both!

[Starbuck_II]

Ninja into Complete Scoundrel class that lets fear allow sudden strike works. The limited application of when you can use Sudden is it only issue.

[WinceRind]

Straight ninja is often considered bad because of how Sudden Attack (or Strike, whatever) works.

It does the same damage as Sneak Attack, but unlike Sneak Attack your target has to be denied dex to armor for it to work. For melee Sneak Attack, just being flanked works.

It's generally easier to flank someone then to deny their dex mod to armor. Unless you've got Greater Invisbility up, fighting a blind opponent that doesn't have some other way of detecting you, and a few other similar tricks, you will not get off a full attack with Sudden Strike on each hit.

With Sneak Attack it's easy. Just ask someone to flank for you.

[Curmudgeon]

If you can wait for a few levels, HiPS from Ninja Spy (OA PrC) comes online on ECL 11.
Wilderness Rogue gives HiPS (natural terrain only) at level 13, which I described as "much too late for my tastes." The Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis continuous option is available when you can afford it (level 10), Shadowdancer at level 8, and Cormyr Dark Creature template at ECL 2 (character level 1).

Earlier is better. Rogue 1/Monk 2 with Invisible Fist ACF gives some tactically useful stealth at level 3. It's only every 3 rounds, but that's much better than waiting until ECL 11. (And at that level the Ninja Spy Acrobatics bonus is only +10, not +20.)

[JaronK]

If you want to be a ninja, don't use CA Ninja (it really doesn't work so well). Factotum works, and so does Unarmed Variant Swordsage. My favorite ninja build is Rogue 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Unarmed Swordsage 18... that gets you pretty much all the ninja abilities, though you'd need Able Learner or something to get UMD (which I think is critical to being a ninja, they were known for using funky tools).

JaronK

[Salanmander]

While sneak attack is strictly better than sudden strike, they are identical (to my knowledge) if you are using ranged weapons. So if you plan on being a melee combatant, rogue is most likely better, but if you plan on being a ranged combatant (or fighting alone), ninja starts to look a lot more attractive.

[WeLoveFireballs]

The best ninja I ever played used a bow and rapid shot in combination with ghost step to get sudden strike every round. You need high wis and dex to pull this off though....

[Curmudgeon]

My favorite ninja build is Rogue 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Unarmed Swordsage 18...
Rokugan is by Alderac Entertainment Group (AEG), and many DMs would have problems mixing non-D&D 3rd party material into a D&D setting. And while much of their stuff is available as OGC, even use of the term "Rokugan" is designated as "Product Identity" under AEG's license and thereby restricted.

[Aquillion]

Factotum is good if you want to be a sneaky-cunning sort of ninja; unarmed Swordsage is good if you want to be a martial arts flashy-magic-powers sort of ninja. "Ninja" covers a wide range of stuff, after all, so you need to consider what sort of things you'll be doing and choose a class that represents that sort of ninja best...

You might also consider Haberdash the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) -- the mask actually fits into many ninja images, and the extreme variety of bizarre weapons is another common ninja trope, too.

[Greenish]

The best ninja I ever played used a bow and rapid shot in combination with ghost step to get sudden strike every round. You need high wis and dex to pull this off though....Zen Archery. Though some feat requirements will still be tricky.

[WeLoveFireballs]

Oooh forgot that one that makes the build a lot better. I was thinking of taking a few levels of monk and then getting Acetic Stalker (Complete Scoundrel). Then using flurry of blows in the same combo with ghost step and relying on sudden strike for my damage.

[Shade Kerrin]

Oooh forgot that one that makes the build a lot better. I was thinking of taking a few levels of monk and then getting Acetic Stalker (Complete Scoundrel). Then using flurry of blows in the same combo with ghost step and relying on sudden strike for my damage.

I've done that too, but I find ninja is a lot better with one of the ACFs from Dragon Magazine 354.

One replaces the invis with a reflex save vs Blindness, which I have checked to be more reliable than invisibility for flat-footing opponents.
The other instead allows you to make a cloud of mist that only you can see through, allowing for a hide check to flatfoot foes(You are taking Darkstalker, right?)

[Sway]

Hmmmmm Thanks everyone... And now, I will shift it to a slightly more focused topic of the Ninja with range and zen archery, for all of those sudden strikes from range. Would something like this work for rogue, swordsage, or any of those others? Because, if so, that would be awesome. If not... Idk. I will have to think about other things...

Also, some clarification. I don't have the ToB book handy, so could someone brief me on some of the advantages for Swordsage?

[JaronK]

Rokugan is by Alderac Entertainment Group (AEG), and many DMs would have problems mixing non-D&D 3rd party material into a D&D setting. And while much of their stuff is available as OGC, even use of the term "Rokugan" is designated as "Product Identity" under AEG's license and thereby restricted.

It's also found online, making it a lot easier to incorporate it. But if that's not available, just pick any other class for a one level dip. The way multiclassing with Swordsage works, if you take that 1 point Rogue dip (for Trapfinding and skills) you may as well take one other level as a dip. If you want, you could just take a level of Warblade and give yourself Moment of Perfect Mind and a few other prerequisite maneuvers.

JaronK

[WinWin]

30 feet. A single move action for most creatures. Unless you are planning on making the most of manyshot or rapid throw you may as well be finessing in melee.

The main advantage of range is the bonus to hide and move silently. Otherwise, just throw something and wait for the opponent to engage you. Attempting to kite is not that effective until you can get some riders on your sneak attacks.

Try and get surprise as often as possible. You are garuanteed at least one sudden strike on your surprise round and then a second if you can beat your opponents initiative. Alternatively, you could bluff and attempt to hide so that when your allies move in to engage you can try and trigger another surprise round. At the very least it will give you another sudden strike or sneak attack.

Improved Initative is a decent feat. You probably want to get quick draw if your character is planning on being a thrower. Otherwise take rapid shot ASAP.

As for multiclassing swordsage, it has some attribute synergy. The diamond mind maneuvers are your best options, as quite a few deny an opponent their dexterity to AC or allow the resolution of melee attacks as touch attacks. Shadow Hand also has some thematic and very effective maneuvers. A basic stance grants permenant concealment. A higher level one grants bonus sneak attack dice while active.