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View Full Version : Drop outs in PbP games: WHY?



Katana_Geldar
2010-12-14, 07:09 PM
Why does it happen? It's infuriating as a DM when I have 8 players and suddenly without any warning whatsoever I have four. Is it too much to ask if people can't play anymore to let the DM know?

And it's not just on this site, I have noticed it on enworld. People just stop posting in a game and hope the DM "gets the message".

I have also notice DMs can stop posting with no warning either. All of the games I have played on this site have ended this way, which is why I fight tooth and nail for the one I run on here.

SurlySeraph
2010-12-14, 07:12 PM
Because people just lose track of them, have lost interest in the game's concept over time, feel like it's pointless because things move too slowly, can't think of anything to say or do and are hoping for someone else to post so they can get ideas from that, etc.

Eldan
2010-12-14, 07:13 PM
I have no idea, really. I have, so far, only noticed this on this site, but here, to an extent that I wouldn't consider running games here anymore. Before I came here, I used to go to a German site, where the situation was much better (but other factors made me quit). We had year-long games there... though the GM was very strict. Three days no post, you are out. 24 hours to post your combat actions, or you do nothing that turn. And it worked: players stayed active.

One major problem, I think, is combat: it moves very, very slowly in PbP, and that tends to suck all excitement out of it.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-14, 07:32 PM
It does, but once you get around the idea that combat will be longer then it's not too bad. Despite the fact you can spend 12 months plus on Keep on the Shadowfell...

But is too much to ask to drop a PM to the DM saying they can't play? Players who drop out unexpectedly can slow down combat too.

Defiant
2010-12-14, 07:44 PM
I know a few years ago, I'd get really busy and either forget or not get to post in a PbP. And when that happened, I had a large wall to climb to convince myself to post. Enough time had passed that it had become socially unacceptable to not have posted for so long - and to post or say anything would make one feel very vulnerable. If you come back, everyone's going to be like "where the hell have you been?" - and no, it's not a logical thing that you can analyze.

It's probably just a facet of psychology or human nature. Call it "out of sight, out of mind". If you get back into it, you have to acknowledge how tardy and bad you have been. Whereas if you just don't post - and don't even post in the forums for months on end - then you don't have to deal with it. And it's not like you're posting other places and not the PbP, you're just completely gone.

Of course, I don't do this nowadays, but I thought this might prove to be a little insight into the psychology of stopping posting in a PbP without warning. Indeed, there's also the large possibility that these people are also jerks, and just don't care.

But I notice this kind of thing in real-life too. It's like I always say:

Better never than late.

If you're late for class, you'll have to get noticed by a lot of your classmates and peers, as well as by your teacher - this will prompt a perception in your head that everyone's thinking "look at that guy that's late" in a bad way. And as such, you want to avoid this experience. Whereas if you never show up, there's not much anyone can say or think - usually you're just forgotten.

It obviously also depends on the teacher and the classroom. My propensity to prefer absence over lateness can be increased by having a strictly-punctual teacher (who points out or is annoyed by latecomers), having a classroom of your peers or people that you want to think well of you (as opposed to random people you don't care about) - even if it's just a few girls you might not want to make unimpressed, and so on...

A person could easily prefer to spend 3 times the amount of time outside of class to catch up with the fact they've missed class, rather than have to deal with the social situation of being late.

Shademan
2010-12-14, 07:48 PM
they move so sloooowly. and it is really annoing when everyone but one is logged on

Ernir
2010-12-14, 07:49 PM
People are afraid of the confrontation, I assume. Telling someone "dude, I think your game sucks, and I don't want to spend my time on it" (or a more polite paraphrasing thereof) just takes bigger balls than most people have. WAY bigger. Especially when the alternative, just shlinking away, is sooo much easier. There is no accountability, no social fallout, no nothing but at the very most a sad/angry/disappointed/confused mail or two from the GM asking you about why you aren't updating any more, which can be ignored (or even ignored and blocked). People do it because it's easier, and they can.

On the GM's side, games die once the GM realizes that...
They just committed a significant portion of their free time for the next years to this game. The time and effort involved is far more than they originally expected.
And once the GM isn't happy, the GM isn't motivated, and when the GM isn't motivated, the game is doomed.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-12-14, 07:52 PM
For my RPs, the biggest cause of dropouts is real life melodrama. I've got a Scion game that effectively ground to a halt because one of the players got in a car crash, had his hours cut at work, meaning he'd need to work even harder to pay for it, and he's becoming more and more alienated from his pretty conservative family. Add depression to the mix, and the poor guy doesn't have any energy to post. I've put the game on hiatus until his life's not so crappy. :smallfrown:

WrathOfLife
2010-12-14, 08:03 PM
Why does it happen? It's infuriating as a DM when I have 8 players and suddenly without any warning whatsoever I have four. Is it too much to ask if people can't play anymore to let the DM know?

And it's not just on this site, I have noticed it on enworld. People just stop posting in a game and hope the DM "gets the message".

I have also notice DMs can stop posting with no warning either. All of the games I have played on this site have ended this way, which is why I fight tooth and nail for the one I run on here.

Its lame, but a common problem, an easy fix is to ask for alternative contact details. Steam IDs, MSN, Yahoo messanger. Stuff folks log on to every day, that way you can find out what the problem is real quick.

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-14, 08:06 PM
There are legitimate reasons to be unable to post, but even then I expect a dropping-out message unless something really catastrophic has happened.

I have dropped out of a lot of games, but it was always very early and I always posted to inform everyone. Otherwise I have always been the last one standing in failed pbps.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-14, 08:14 PM
None of the four players that dropped out of my game had the simple courtesy of telling me they wouldn't be able to play anymore. It's not that much effort to send a PM, particuarly if I see you posting on here afterwards!

And if a DM is going to call it quits, should not they say something?

Tengu_temp
2010-12-14, 08:19 PM
The best way to avoid this: play with people you trust not to pull off something like that, not randoms. Keeping a blacklist of those who dropped out of games without letting anyone know and those who have a tendency to abandon games helps. And yes, leaving a game without even letting the DM know is mighty rude.

SurlySeraph
2010-12-14, 08:21 PM
But is too much to ask to drop a PM to the DM saying they can't play? Players who drop out unexpectedly can slow down combat too.

Yeah, but that assumes the person in question is sure they want to leave the game, and if they're in doubt it can feel less awkward to check if it's still moving after they leave.
They should have the courtesy to tell you, but not everyone does. If they don't, don't game with them again.

Even in the best-run and most stable PbP games I've been in, people end up having to leave or going on long breaks. Basically glossing over people going back and forth works well, keeping combat moving instead of holding up at the same round for several days waiting for people to post, and being very willing to gloss stuff over so the game keeps moving quickly works well. A good example is Jade Tarem's For the Spider Queen game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117404); I've seen DMs insist that players go no further than "down the hall" in a single post, but Jade ran things more like "OK, your character has an elite team with him and great rogue-ish skills, so you can sneak through most of this place" or "OK, your character's a social expert with tons of contacts, so you can find someone who sells that without trouble."

It might be worth reading over threads for some of the longer-lived campaigns out there, like The Necromancer's Pact (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37623), for ideas.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-14, 08:25 PM
I do have a limit in waiting for people to post, usually a day after the majority of the group and they do nothing for that round.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-12-14, 08:25 PM
Why does it happen? It's infuriating as a DM when I have 8 players and suddenly without any warning whatsoever I have four. Is it too much to ask if people can't play anymore to let the DM know?


Well, there's one of your problems right there.

Running a game with 8 players is difficult in RL. Relying on 8 different people, with different schedules, differing mastery of the rules, and differing levels of confidence/comfort/motivation to post with any regularity on a forum with no consequences for not complying is honestly expecting the impossible.

The smaller your player pool, the better, especially in PBP. I'd advise keeping it to four or five.

As an experienced PBP DM, you've got to learn from every missing player, and absorb wisdom from the ashes of every dead game. Lurk on the recruitment boards, read some other games... get a sense for who the good players are, and who the bad players are. There's a tendency to get 'flash in the pan' players who spend a furious amount of time being hyper active in multiple games, and then all at once disappearing. Eventually, you can develop a certain 'player sense' that helps you weed out the flakes.

That said, PBP is pretty much a crap shoot. If you find a good player, take note of them, and once you've got a decent list, perhaps just send PMs and have private recruitment, rather than opening up games to the masses.

Lord Vampyre
2010-12-14, 08:30 PM
This has happened in all 3 of the games, I tried playing on these boards and the 1 game I tried to run. In the one I was running it seemed that many of the players had a difficult time deciding on what to do next, and in the end chose to do nothing. They seemed fine when I took a heavy hand in running scenes, but as soon as the decision on what to do next was left to them their interest just seemed to fizzle out.

I am curious as to what makes a successful PbP game continue to run.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-14, 08:32 PM
PbP games need a little bit more "railroading" than real life ones, I don't do outright railroading but when the game stalls after an encounter I may present the players with a few options based on what has happened.

And if you make a big map, they can see these for themselves.

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-14, 08:46 PM
You think that's bad? I've had this happen with players in real life. Is it so hard to send an e-mail? :smallmad:

Tavar
2010-12-14, 08:49 PM
There are always personal issues as well. I've been dealing with a pretty bad case of social anxiety for awhile now, and that makes it much harder for me to, after an unexpected absence, talk to the DM. Really, there are a lot of OOG, Real Life reasons that someone might drop a game.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-12-14, 08:54 PM
I have noticed this happening from both the player and the DM position, though it always seems to be in the early running before anything really happens in my experience, before anything really happens. Maybe the answer is to start a game with "The world is on fire and everyone is dying. FIX IT!" No build up, just dropped right into the action... but then that appeals mainly to the combat players, which really don't work as well in PbP anyways...


Sometimes things come up though, and I'm as guilty as anyone of forgetting to let people know. Despite how easy it is to forget of other obligations you have when you're up to your waist in snow, that doesn't mean you should...

kyoryu
2010-12-14, 08:59 PM
I think that a lot of roleplayers are pretty conflict-avoidant. If they're not happy with a game, it's easier to just drop out and go away (since there are rarely any repercussions for this) than to tell the DM why they're unhappy.

Even in cases where they haven't been able to post for legit reasons, the awkwardness of coming back and saying "uh, hi, sorry I haven't been able to post" may be more anxiety than the game is worth to them - it's easier to just go on and pretend they were never a part of it. Again, the lack of real social repercussions probably plays into this as well.

thorgrim29
2010-12-14, 09:06 PM
I don't know... All the games I participated in died on me, because the other players or the DM dropped. The one time I tried to run a game, it sort of flopped, I didn't like the party that much (not the players, the party was just odd), and I think I started it a bit slowly, plus I may have scared a few away by having NOT! Manowar play in the tavern.

Ryuuk
2010-12-14, 09:07 PM
A good example is Jade Tarem's For the Spider Queen game (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117404);

As a drop out from this game it looks like its fitting for me to post.

Well, sometimes you just sort of lose interest. Maybe the character isn't quite as enjoyable as you thought, maybe other things show up IRL. I think I'd gotten to the point where it was actually stressing me out to keep up with everything on the forums instead enjoying it. I originally left that game along with all the other ones I was in at the time and the forum in general. Spending some time unplugged was nice.

That said, Jade handled it very well in the IC. I don't think I answered his PM asking what was up until I finally came back to the forums. Admittedly, I should have at least sent a PM when I left, but I didn't.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-12-14, 09:12 PM
I think that a lot of roleplayers are pretty conflict-avoidant.
My, that's a nice way of saying ungracious and/or yellow-bellied.

I don't know a single DM who wouldn't be totally understanding if the player went 'Hey, real life is kicking my butt, I gotta go' and to a lesser extent, 'Not having enough fun with this'.

Pretty much anything is better than disappearing unannounced. I've had some serious crap go on in my life or got bored to death of a game. I've never left a DM hanging.

These guys put hours, if not weeks, of planning into these things, completely free of charge, for your entertainment. It's the least you can do.

I'm currently running a game. This is the sixth incarnation of it and 4th year of attempt. Every one of them folks just... disappeared. These people didn't have an emergency, cuz they tended to still be posting every day elsewhere.
Nor are they dull or badly run. Yet to have a soul complain about it, and those that didn't disappear were disappointed to see it end.

This behavior is not appreciated, and I keep a list of them that I give to DM's I know particularly well as a courtesy warning. Its a way of saying this player may not be dependable, accept at your own risk.

EDit: And yes, I message each one as well. It's those that even ignore the messages that get the red mark.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-12-14, 09:18 PM
I have noticed this happening from both the player and the DM position, though it always seems to be in the early running before anything really happens in my experience, before anything really happens. Maybe the answer is to start a game with "The world is on fire and everyone is dying. FIX IT!" No build up, just dropped right into the action... but then that appeals mainly to the combat players, which really don't work as well in PbP anyways...


Sometimes things come up though, and I'm as guilty as anyone of forgetting to let people know. Despite how easy it is to forget of other obligations you have when you're up to your waist in snow, that doesn't mean you should...
In my experience, it's always the first combat encounter where things fall apart, since PbP relies on players being there to make posts, and not everyone is in the same time zone. People then forget it's their turn, and combat grinds to a halt. For the longest time I exclusively played "freeform" games where turn-based combat was avoided for this reason, and while now I'm getting better with actual PbP combat in recent days, I've left a long string of games behind me where it fell apart because combat was a ponderous mess.

Eurus
2010-12-14, 09:19 PM
I know a few years ago, I'd get really busy and either forget or not get to post in a PbP. And when that happened, I had a large wall to climb to convince myself to post. Enough time had passed that it had become socially unacceptable to not have posted for so long - and to post or say anything would make one feel very vulnerable. If you come back, everyone's going to be like "where the hell have you been?" - and no, it's not a logical thing that you can analyze.

It's probably just a facet of psychology or human nature. Call it "out of sight, out of mind". If you get back into it, you have to acknowledge how tardy and bad you have been. Whereas if you just don't post - and don't even post in the forums for months on end - then you don't have to deal with it. And it's not like you're posting other places and not the PbP, you're just completely gone.

Of course, I don't do this nowadays, but I thought this might prove to be a little insight into the psychology of stopping posting in a PbP without warning. Indeed, there's also the large possibility that these people are also jerks, and just don't care.

But I notice this kind of thing in real-life too. It's like I always say:

Better never than late.

If you're late for class, you'll have to get noticed by a lot of your classmates and peers, as well as by your teacher - this will prompt a perception in your head that everyone's thinking "look at that guy that's late" in a bad way. And as such, you want to avoid this experience. Whereas if you never show up, there's not much anyone can say or think - usually you're just forgotten.

It obviously also depends on the teacher and the classroom. My propensity to prefer absence over lateness can be increased by having a strictly-punctual teacher (who points out or is annoyed by latecomers), having a classroom of your peers or people that you want to think well of you (as opposed to random people you don't care about) - even if it's just a few girls you might not want to make unimpressed, and so on...

A person could easily prefer to spend 3 times the amount of time outside of class to catch up with the fact they've missed class, rather than have to deal with the social situation of being late.

Oh dear, that hits very close to home for me, both in games and in college. :smallfrown:

In my case, drop-outs tend to coincide with periods of depression. And when you're feeling seriously depressed already, the last thing you want to do is remind yourself of (perceived, by yourself or others) failure. What I think happens is:

1: Person joins game, keeps current.
2: Event happens that delays person in keeping up with game temporarily.
3: Person tries to get back into things, but begins falling behind - if the game is a very active one, it might be because they lack the time or energy to keep up with everyone, but if it's a slow game they might unconsciously be pushing it to the bottom of their mental to-do list. Perhaps they were active in many games, and feel like it would be an insult to post in one unless they can get back into all of them.
4: Person does not give warning and drop out of the game, because they enjoy it (or feel obligated to it) and tell themselves "I'll catch up and get back into the game(s), I can still do it."
5: Time has passed, and the person has yet to be able to catch up. People are almost definitely noticing (and possibly resigned to) the absence by this point, and the barriers to returning seem insurmountable. At that point, the person usually feels like it's already over; they've probably been dropped at that point, and there's no point in laboring over an apology that will only serve to call attention to the point.

It's not pretty. One thing that I've found helps is to PM players in whom you see warning signs asking if they're sure that they're able and willing to continue. Once that conversation is opened, the motivations for keeping quiet are much smaller.

kyoryu
2010-12-14, 09:27 PM
My, that's a nice way of saying ungracious and/or yellow-bellied.

I don't know a single DM who wouldn't be totally understanding if the player went 'Hey, real life is kicking my butt, I gotta go' and to a lesser extent, 'Not having enough fun with this'.


With people that are conflict avoidant like that, it's not about the likely response of the person that they'd be conflicting with - it's the very thought of conflict itself. Usually these are people that have low self-esteem, tend to be "personality chameleons" and have fear of rejection.

So yes, you're right - any DM would prefer an actual message. But it's not about the DM's preference, or even likely reaction. There's just a fear of disappointing someone, and once that's there, it's easier to just slip into the woodwork.

I don't know if it's a matter of being a "coward," vs. more of a deep-seated psychological issue, closer to a phobia. I do know that I observe it a lot.

And, pretty much Defiant's post.

Ernir
2010-12-14, 09:32 PM
I have been thinking for quite some time about why we don't have a guide of sorts to discuss this particular problem. Really, this is the number one problem PbP games have, this should be the number one sticky. =/

*Keeps watching thread, compiling data*

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-12-14, 09:37 PM
There's just a fear of disappointing someone, and once that's there, it's easier to just slip into the woodwork.
Except that the act of slipping into the woodwork is guaranteed to disappoint someone, and far more than saying 'I'm leaving'.



I don't know if it's a matter of being a "coward," vs. more of a deep-seated psychological issue, closer to a phobia. I do know that I observe it a lot.
Is there some reason these type of conditions (I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that it is a legit reason, and not just used as an excuse) seem concentrated within RPG boards? I've wondered that for some time. Over the last 6 years I've been here I've seen probably over a hundred claiming something of that nature.

I try hard not to be cynical, but it just seems too simple and rampant a claim at times not to raise some doubt on my part.

If such is legit however, please, whoever you might be, seek help, and don't apply to games. You know you had this before you came here. Or let the DM know. Heck, if I was told this I'd still let you in, and help you out if I could.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-14, 09:40 PM
I don't know a single DM who wouldn't be totally understanding if the player went 'Hey, real life is kicking my butt, I gotta go' and to a lesser extent, 'Not having enough fun with this'.

Pretty much anything is better than disappearing unannounced. I've had some serious crap go on in my life or got bored to death of a game. I've never left a DM hanging.

These guys put hours, if not weeks, of planning into these things, completely free of charge, for your entertainment. It's the least you can do.



Consider this if you ever think of leaving a DM hanging. That includes in real life.

And in my real life group, this is one thing I am rather strict on. A person who does not show up to a game and doesn't tell me for a session earns my ire, and if it's more than one I let the players think of a suitable and harmless embarrassing thing to happen to their character if they come back. I tell them that I don't care if they text me at 3am the morning before, they need to let me know.

Defiant
2010-12-14, 09:44 PM
Except that the act of slipping into the woodwork is guaranteed to disappoint someone, and far more than saying 'I'm leaving'.


and no, it's not a logical thing that you can analyze.

Again, it's about the confrontation more than anything.


Is there some reason these type of conditions (I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that it is a legit reason, and not just used as an excuse) seem concentrated within RPG boards? I've wondered that for some time. Over the last 6 years I've been here I've seen probably over a hundred claiming something of that nature.

I try hard not to be cynical, but it just seems too simple and rampant a claim at times not to raise some doubt on my part.

If such is legit however, please, whoever you might be, seek help, and don't apply to games. You know you had this before you came here.

This psychological "blip" is not something that someone can be aware of. Most of these people go in absolutely sure that they'll be able to keep on top of everything, and that they'll announce any absences.

Once I had realized that I had this issue, I naturally stopped applying to any and all PbP games. And then I got some of my mental health issues back into order, and was ready for stuff again - but I'm still afraid of applying for any games, just in case - because you can't really know until it happens.

But even someone who has experienced this might still feel they can do it - and I mean genuinely feel it. Not to mention wanting to do it to retrieve some sort of vindication.

Starbuck_II
2010-12-14, 09:44 PM
I don't know a single DM who wouldn't be totally understanding if the player went 'Hey, real life is kicking my butt, I gotta go' and to a lesser extent, 'Not having enough fun with this'.

Pretty much anything is better than disappearing unannounced. I've had some serious crap go on in my life or got bored to death of a game. I've never left a DM hanging.

These guys put hours, if not weeks, of planning into these things, completely free of charge, for your entertainment. It's the least you can do.

I'm currently running a game. This is the sixth incarnation of it and 4th year of attempt. Every one of them folks just... disappeared. These people didn't have an emergency, cuz they tended to still be posting every day elsewhere.
Nor are they dull or badly run. Yet to have a soul complain about it, and those that didn't disappear were disappointed to see it end.

This behavior is not appreciated, and I keep a list of them that I give to DM's I know particularly well as a courtesy warning. Its a way of saying this player may not be dependable, accept at your own risk.

EDit: And yes, I message each one as well. It's those that even ignore the messages that get the red mark.

Yeah, real life does creep up something, but one should tell the DM probably.
You've had it happen a lot? Wow.

kyoryu
2010-12-14, 09:44 PM
Except that the act of slipping into the woodwork is guaranteed to disappoint someone, and far more than saying 'I'm leaving'.

Right. But by disappearing, the person doesn't have to actually deal with the DM's reaction. Out of sight, out of mind.

It's really not that different than a guy not calling a girl he doesn't want to see any more. It's the same basic behavior.


Is there some reason these type of conditions (I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that it is a legit reason, and not just used as an excuse) seem concentrated within RPG boards? I've wondered that for some time. Over the last 6 years I've been here I've seen probably over a hundred claiming something of that nature.

Frankly, people that play RPGs have, in my experience, generally not been the most adept socially. I also think that message boards in general attract certain personality types (I'd bet the autistic spectrum rate is multiple times that of the general population). So, the combination.... yeah.

NOTE: That doesn't mean I think everyone, or anyone in particular even, qualifies for this. Just a general observation. Also a lot of roleplayers have excellent social skills - it's just that the average is somewhat lower than the general population.


If such is legit however, please, whoever you might be, seek help, and don't apply to games. You know you had this before you came here. Or let the DM know. Heck, if I was told this I'd still let you in, and help you out if I could.

Well, I hope you don't mean me, here :) See? Me - not avoiding conflict. Yay!

Tengu_temp
2010-12-14, 09:49 PM
People drop out of PbP games much more often than out of normal games because the internet brings out the inner jerk in everyone. It's easier to disappoint someone on the net than someone in real life, because you don't see that person's face, don't hear their voice. They feel less human. And it's easier to act like a jerk towards someone who doesn't feel as human.

Also, there are virtually no repercussions. So what if you drop out of one game when it no longer interests you? You still have a lot more to choose from! People who were with you in a group previously will avoid you now, but you just need to find a DM who's not aware of your bad reputation. It's so easy.

And yes, those people really annoy me. I treat my PbP seriously. Maybe too seriously, considering it's just entertainment.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-14, 09:52 PM
To be honest, if someone PMed me to say that due to real life they could no longer participate in a game, I would be okay with that. I'd be disappointmed, make sure perhaps that the player was certain about their decision through a few PMs.

But it is better to know you are minus a certain player so you can make the decision whether to go recruiting or not, and what plot re-directs are needed to bring new people in.

Knowing is half the battle.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-12-14, 09:53 PM
This psychological "blip" is not something that someone can be aware of. Most of these people go in absolutely sure that they'll be able to keep on top of everything, and that they'll announce any absences...
Once I had realized that I had this issue, I naturally stopped applying to any and all PbP games.
Then you handled it in a mature fashion. However, from my experience that isn't the norm. They just apply elsewhere.


NOTE: That doesn't mean I think everyone, or anyone in particular even, qualifies for this. Just a general observation. Also a lot of roleplayers have excellent social skills - it's just that the average is somewhat lower than the general population.
Which seems odd to me, considering RPing tends to require socialization, unlike watching tv, playing video games, cutting yourself, etc. Y'know, the standards.

I've never actually played in real life. Only through chatrooms or PbP. Not because of the socialization, I am completely neutral to it, but because it allows, in my opinion, greater range of literary preparation. I can spend a few moments to collect my thoughts, and put it down in an awesome way.

I.e. I'm not awkward, I'm a writer... which tends to mean I'm actually the opposite, being more confrontational than average :smallwink:


Well, I hope you don't mean me, here :) See? Me - not avoiding conflict. Yay!
But leaning towards paranoia :smalltongue:

I know who you are. You're what your user name says. Was directed as a 'To whomever it may concern'.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-12-14, 10:01 PM
Which seems odd to me, considering RPing tends to require socialization, unlike watching tv, playing video games, cutting yourself, etc. Y'know, the standards.

I've never actually played in real life. Only through chatrooms or PbP. Not because of the socialization, I am completely neutral to it, but because it allows, in my opinion, greater range of literary preparation. I can spend a few moments to collect my thoughts, and put it down in an awesome way.

I.e. I'm not awkward, I'm a writer... which tends to mean I'm actually the opposite, being more confrontational than average :smallwink:

I've managed to to RL play a few time, but such games are rare for me. I can never find a game being played in my area. There just aren't that many people in Hastings who play the game. Anybody who does is up in the Twin Cities, and they already have their games going.

Plus, I've always had the problem of wanting to play games other people don't seem to be interested in. The forum I frequent most is mostly 3.5 D&D players, and they started getting snappish when I brought up the idea of a 4e roleplay. I started one up, and people joined it, but the heart wasn't there and the game collapsed.

That's really one of my issues with PbP, and with roleplaying in general. I never get an opportunity to just be a player. I always have to be the GM if I want a game.

kyoryu
2010-12-14, 10:02 PM
Which seems odd to me, considering RPing tends to require socialization, unlike watching tv, playing video games, cutting yourself, etc. Y'know, the standards.

Yeah, but it's socialization where you basically *act as someone else*. I don't think it's hard to see where that would appeal to people with self-esteem issues. Joe might not think much of himself, but Gornak the Mighty is a great hero respected by all.


But leaning towards paranoia :smalltongue:

Well, if you'd just stop reading my mail, I wouldn't have to worry, now would I?

HunterOfJello
2010-12-14, 10:03 PM
I think that the number of people who want to try PbP games in the hope that they'll be fun and satisfy their d&d cravings is very large. However, a successful PbP game seems to require:

1. patience over multiple days to do anything in-game
2. regular participation every day or every other day including the ability to remember to post every day
3. the ability to actually enjoy a PbP game (which is extremely different than the enjoyment from a table top game with friends or playing one of the d&d video games like Neverwinter Nights or Baldur's Gate)
4. the ability to not get bored with a game that has progressed 10 minutes in-game time after 1 month of real time
5. other players who also fulfill criteria 1 through 4
6. a DM who fills the criteria of 1 through 4

The odds of these criteria all being met are very low.
~

I feel the desire to try out a PbP game again every once in a while and start thinking up a new character, but end up not posting everything or joining because I realize that the only part of a PbP game that I have ever enjoyed was creating my character for it beforehand.

I also tried a IRC d&d game, but could never remember it and ended up dropping out in a PM after I had missed 3 sessions. I didn't intentionally miss 3 sessions, I could just never remember that there was a game on that particular night.

A similar experience occured with a maptools game I tried. It was just boring and not fun. After fighting a dragon for 6 hours and finally defeating it, I realized that I had been bored for the last 3 hours of the game and told everyone I was unlikely to come back.

~

If you're annoyed by PbP games, then I think you need to find some other people who can match your enjoyment and commitment to a PbP game. Most people don't have that and I'm surprised that anyone actually enjoys those games.

Mystic Muse
2010-12-14, 10:07 PM
Happened once IRL and another time recently.

Star wars game on here just a couple of days ago. Haven't been any posts for two days.

Other game was a couple of months ago. I was taking a break for a couple of sessions because I was being kind of a jerk about the game. two or three sessions later I want to come back and message the DM asking what day it is. Turns out, the game fell apart and the DM didn't inform me.

Starbuck_II
2010-12-14, 10:08 PM
Knowing is half the battle.

And the other half is violence. :smallbiggrin:

druid91
2010-12-14, 10:17 PM
People drop out of PbP games much more often than out of normal games because the internet brings out the inner jerk in everyone. It's easier to disappoint someone on the net than someone in real life, because you don't see that person's face, don't hear their voice. They feel less human. And it's easier to act like a jerk towards someone who doesn't feel as human.

Also, there are virtually no repercussions. So what if you drop out of one game when it no longer interests you? You still have a lot more to choose from! People who were with you in a group previously will avoid you now, but you just need to find a DM who's not aware of your bad reputation. It's so easy.

And yes, those people really annoy me. I treat my PbP seriously. Maybe too seriously, considering it's just entertainment.

Maybe I'm odd, but aside from a select few IRL. I'm nicer on the net than to face to face people.

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-14, 10:30 PM
Hm. This is reminding me of my own failures. I promised a poster I'd run a game for them and I never did complete it. I reached that stage where you're convinced what you just wrote up is absolutely atrocious and you'd embarrass yourself by making it public, and I guess it just died from there. That was two months ago and I never contacted the person in question. Debating whether I should do so now or if it's been long enough that it's more offense to contact him than not.

To contribute to the discussion, I think the embarrassment issue might be significant for some people. Or maybe not so much embarrassment so much as the idea that you promised someone you would deliver something and you no longer think you can. Thus a player might drop if they don't think they can contribute with their character, or something.

Tavar
2010-12-15, 12:08 AM
It might not be so simple to realize you have a problem. I wasn't aware till my freshman year of college that I had a big social problem(and then only because i had a complete breakdown). You can be surprised how much abnormal stuff one will assume is normal (non-psychological example; I have a deviated septum, so one of my nostrils is almost completely blocked off. I didn't realize this was abnormal till about my senior year in high school).

Tyndmyr
2010-12-15, 12:19 AM
Again, it's about the confrontation more than anything.



This psychological "blip" is not something that someone can be aware of. Most of these people go in absolutely sure that they'll be able to keep on top of everything, and that they'll announce any absences.

Once I had realized that I had this issue, I naturally stopped applying to any and all PbP games. And then I got some of my mental health issues back into order, and was ready for stuff again - but I'm still afraid of applying for any games, just in case - because you can't really know until it happens.

But even someone who has experienced this might still feel they can do it - and I mean genuinely feel it. Not to mention wanting to do it to retrieve some sort of vindication.

Yeah, this is legit. I recently had a situation where due to extended illness and some other obligations, I literally didn't contact a pbp for over a month. By the time I was logging on again, they'd moved on. You don't really want to disrupt the game a second time, so it's easiest to just stay uninvolved.

Therefore, once someone drops out of a pbp game, they're almost never coming back. This is true no matter how unintentional it is, or what caused it.

I should note that this isn't limited to players. I've seen no shortage of DM dropouts or burnout. It's just a lot easier to get out of touch when your only form of communication is an online forum, and you have no specific schedule for it.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-12-15, 02:50 AM
It's just a lot easier to get out of touch when your only form of communication is an online forum, and you have no specific schedule for it.

While probably not a perfect fix, maybe the lack of "community" is a part of the problem. I mean think about it, in a gaming group, you do a lot more than game, and its part of that connection that makes it more difficult to randomly drop out of an in-person game. You're connected in more ways than just the game, whether through being friends or just the socialization. In addition to not being able to really communicate outside of the forum, there's just no connection between the players in a PbP.

One thing I noticed about the successful PbP's is that their OOC threads are always active. We have "community" on the forum, yes, but many a PbP is on it's own about as much of a community as a bus.

You can't really force people to talk with each other in those, but what if instead of recruiting just for a PbP, forming a virtual gaming group. You get a little more sense of community there by personally being part of a group, not just your character. Then various players are free to come up with ideas for games they can DM consisting of players in the group. Of course the person forming this group should have a starting idea for the first campaign among the group to give it the slightest chance of going anywhere.



...just random ramblings.

Strawberries
2010-12-15, 03:24 AM
Otherwise I have always been the last one standing in failed pbps.

Same goes for me. I'm just masochistic that way. :smallbiggrin:

I have never DMed in Pbps (the world is safe...for now. :smalltongue:), but I'm usally the annoying player. The one that asks "anyone still here?" in OOC threads, or that takes the liberty to PM the other players (or even the DM) if they are silent for too long. I realize it may be perceived as rude, but I usually apologize in my PM and explain that I've seen too many PbPs fall apart without a really good reason to be a bit paranoid about it. What do you know, it works. Sometimes. :smallsmile:



Even in cases where they haven't been able to post for legit reasons, the awkwardness of coming back and saying "uh, hi, sorry I haven't been able to post" may be more anxiety than the game is worth to them - it's easier to just go on and pretend they were never a part of it.

Really? Why should it be awkward? Real life happens to everyone. If you have a legit reason, you apologize, say you'll try to give warning next time (and mean it) and politely ask if you can keep playing. I'd feel much more awkward in ignoring people I'm likely to see in other recruitment threads.


In my experience, it's always the first combat encounter where things fall apart, since PbP relies on players being there to make posts, and not everyone is in the same time zone. People then forget it's their turn, and combat grinds to a halt.

That's where PMs from DMs and fellow players come into play. :smallwink::smallbiggrin:


That was two months ago and I never contacted the person in question. Debating whether I should do so now or if it's been long enough that it's more offense to contact him than not.

Word of advice? You really should contact him and be honest about it. I'd feel much more offended in being ignored than given an explanation, however late that may be. Hey, maybe he'd want to run it all the same. Or maybe he'll say "well, let's bounce some ideas back and forth, see what we can come up with togheter if you're up for it". It's what I'd do.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-15, 03:27 AM
Star wars game on here just a couple of days ago. Haven't been any posts for two days.


That's nothing, two days means you can just give a "Is everyone still awake" post in the OOC thread.

Totally Guy
2010-12-15, 08:49 AM
I thought I'd do better by approaching only the people I'd met in real life from the UK meet up. Mouse Guard, 2 players. One, "yes I'm in" each then nothing. :(

Myth
2010-12-15, 11:48 AM
I only play PbP unfortunately (no one to play tabletop where I hail from). I post both here and on ENWorld. Here is my take on this (maybe repeating what others wrote)

1. PbP is slow. The pace is erratic - you can have your generally excited fellow refresh the topic every 30 min. You can have some busy or easily distracted guy go MIA for a month. Frequently the first devolves to the second.

PbP is different than tabletop but not everyone knows or sees this at the start. I've had very excited eager-beavers on ENWorld singing up for my game within literally 20 minutes of me posting the concept. They roll the character in the same day. They then disappear once the game goes slow, and it will. Because, in PbP combat is slow. The one true main focus of PbP should be roleplaying. Dungeon crawls and slugfests are so tedious that they can discourage even a hardcore fan of the system.

And most often than not, those who don't know this simply lose interest or go away. I usually don't take "unknowns" or posters with less than 500 posts in my games on ENWorld.

2. PbP attracts various players. In PbP more often than not people can play some quirky weird build that normally they could not get by their local DM. Some of them won't care for your concept or story, they just want to play their +6 LA race Paladin/Monk/Theurge or that Incantatrix build they read about but never got approved.

It also attracts people with varying levels of understanding of the rules and/or optimization. You have to balance the guys wanting to roll Fighters with Toughness with the DMM persist Clerics. This creates a discrepancy, as usually people roll their character and don't really bother with the others' sheets, until combat starts at least. I imagine in a tabletop game the players will work together on their builds and the variation in power/charop will be lower.

The point remains that when the player is bored with his weird arse build/concept, or sees that a half-drow undead half-dragon TWF monkey grip fighter is not such a good idea they leave to try out some other build they suddenly became inspired to try.

3. PbP is more susceptible to DM burnout. Because your players may not respond for a week or so, or some go away while others come back, it's hard to keep focus and drive the story forward. Completed with the work involved in statting the NPCs many DMs simply give up once the players sidetrack the story and completely ignore their absolutely awesomersest NPC they had been statting for a good week or so. IMO PbP is more for mature players, and for those who know how to build a complex 3 dimensional character and would roleplay him well (and get satisfaction from doing so and from the character growth presented by the DM).

kyoryu
2010-12-15, 12:49 PM
Really? Why should it be awkward? Real life happens to everyone. If you have a legit reason, you apologize, say you'll try to give warning next time (and mean it) and politely ask if you can keep playing. I'd feel much more awkward in ignoring people I'm likely to see in other recruitment threads.

I agree. Rationally, it's not awkward at all. But I don't think that for people who do this, it's a rational issue. Look at Defiant's post, where he'll skip a class rather than come in late, just so that he doesn't have to deal with people staring at him.

Lost Demiurge
2010-12-15, 12:55 PM
I've run precisely one game that managed to dodge the PbP curse. And I have a feeling that it dodged it because I did a few things that I've been unwilling to duplicate for other games.

The rest of my PbP games faded and fell. Mostly due to dropouts, but a few due to me pulling the plug. DM's are players too, in a sense... And for me when the game doesn't gel, or the pc's don't stay active enough, I have trouble keeping on track. It doesn't help that my posting time's diminished quite a bit since that one awesome game.

On the one that went well... Here are the factors I think helped it succeed.

The basic premise was a low/middling superhero game, using Mutants and Masterminds. (First edition) It was based on the old Suicide Squad comics. The PC's were playing villains on parole, and sent out on black ops for the government.

This is what we did to make it work:

1. I posted my butt off. I was in a situation at the time where I could check the forums regularly, and post at least five or six times on weekdays. (during daylight, of course.) While this was a minor contributing factor, it helped establish things early on, and it let me set a vigorous pace.

2. I overrecruited, in expectation of people dropping out. But the trick of it was, that only about six PC's got to play at any one time. See the mission explanation, below.

3. We used mission-style play. Each story arc opened with a team being selected to go out and kick ass on a mission. We determined which PC's got to play by seeing who posted first when the sign-up sheet came around. Once the PC's were on a mission, that was it until the end of the mission. No other characters could participate until the mission was done. (Mind you, the ones who weren't up to bat were free to roleplay back at the base or chat in the OOC thread, but no getting in on the action.) I also explained that if you'd just finished a mission, you should try to give others a chance to get to the sign-up thread first. That worked well, and people kept it fair.

4. People DID drop here and there. Due to the mission style play, we kept on going. In fact, we recruited new people as we went on because the premise was so open, and the quality of our game was regarded as fairly high. We had a lot of interested readers.

5. My core players were AWESOME. Posted frequently, rp'd between each other when I wasn't around, kept things going. Their characters grew and developed as the game went on.

6. I am a good writer. When I get motivated, it shows. And this game provided one hell of a stage...

7. M&M has lightning fast, exciting combat for the most part. That seriously helped.

kyoryu
2010-12-15, 01:41 PM
I've run precisely one game that managed to dodge the PbP curse. And I have a feeling that it dodged it because I did a few things that I've been unwilling to duplicate for other games.


What's interesting about this is that it sounds a lot more like an old-skool campaign, where the world is central, players may have more than one character, and the assumption is that players may come or go.

I've been hypothesizing that this style of campaign is more resistant to campaign death, as it can survive player churn much better. It may be that this is really the way to do a successful PbP game, rather than a more narrative approach.

Sang Real
2010-12-15, 02:11 PM
I only play PbP unfortunately (no one to play tabletop where I hail from).
Wow, and I thought I had it rough in upstate NY. Seriously, there are gamers who never actually play IRL? :smalleek:

I've tried pbp, but I just can't stay focused. It's like talking to someone in China, with a phone that has a time delay. :smallsigh:

Why it's so fraking hard to send the DM/players a PM saying "Sorry, I'm out" is beyond me though. I can't imagine how some of these people must deal with real confrontations if they can't even manage that.

Lost Demiurge
2010-12-15, 02:19 PM
What's interesting about this is that it sounds a lot more like an old-skool campaign, where the world is central, players may have more than one character, and the assumption is that players may come or go.

I've been hypothesizing that this style of campaign is more resistant to campaign death, as it can survive player churn much better. It may be that this is really the way to do a successful PbP game, rather than a more narrative approach.

One other thing I forgot to mention, is that the missions each team went on were fairly short. The first few were completed in about a week each, after that we felt confident enough of our playerbase and posting that they stretched to 2-4 weeks. They rarely went past a month, though.

doctor_wu
2010-12-15, 02:32 PM
What should you do when you are wondering if a play by post is alive still and you were the last one to post in the OOC thread... I do not want to double post and it has been a week.

As a Gm a long time ago on a play by post I had an arrogant character that pissed me off and the party went into a fight and I did not know what to say and then the pbp died. As I did not post after what to do with abandoning an elf boy in a pit argument.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-12-15, 03:09 PM
Wow, and I thought I had it rough in upstate NY. Seriously, there are gamers who never actually play IRL? :smalleek:

Is that really so uncommon? That's why I'm here too.

true_shinken
2010-12-15, 03:14 PM
Man, this is scary. I'm starting a game here and this makes me pretty worried.
I really don't want my game to die on me!

Strawberries
2010-12-15, 03:31 PM
Is that really so uncommon? That's why I'm here too.

Same for me. A combination of crazy schedule and lack of players makes impossible for me to play in real life.

OwlishBard
2010-12-15, 03:51 PM
Seeing how PbP are horribly slow and players randomly quit, I don't understand why people keep running them instead of MSN/chatroom games. I can find forum games everywhere but it's nearly impossible to find an MSN game.


Seriously, there are gamers who never actually play IRL?

Some of us are even in a worse situation as they cannot even find someone to play with on the Internet. :smallfurious:

Private-Prinny
2010-12-15, 03:51 PM
Man, this is scary. I'm starting a game here and this makes me pretty worried.
I really don't want my game to die on me!

Me too. I've been in about 3 PbP campaigns that just spontaneously died, and yours sounds like fun.

Strawberries
2010-12-15, 03:55 PM
Seeing how PbP are horribly slow and players randomly quit, I don't understand why people keep running them instead of MSN/chatroom games. I can find forum games everywhere but it's nearly impossible to find an MSN game.


As mentioned. Impossible schedules. Different timezones. For instance it would be impossible for me to be in a MSN game.

Have you tried asking in the recruitment subforum? I've seen some threads for MSN/Skype and chatroom games.

Inlieu
2010-12-15, 04:01 PM
Maybe there should be social consequences? At least a denouncement of those dropping a game?

If there were a player/DM ranking system, like eBay?

Hyudra
2010-12-15, 04:23 PM
The anonymity of internet contact makes it very easy to walk away & never look back.

For this reason, I often start my PbP games with an excess of players, knowing that within 2-3 weeks, my group is going to drop to 50-75% size, or 1-2 people just aren't going to work out.

The Valiant Turtle
2010-12-15, 04:40 PM
As someone who is seriously jonesing for some RP I was really looking into PbP recently but I quickly realized I'd hate it, largely due to my experience in the Structured Games Forums here. Something I have to do every day sounds much more like work than it does fun. Furthermore, when I could play IRL it always takes me a little time to get in character. That's no problem at all for a 3+ hour session IRL, but to try to do that everyday... UGH! Also there's the issue that 3/4 of the fun of gaming is just goofing off with friends and quoting the Princess Bride at every opportunity. PbP seems decidedly un-fun to me, so I haven't applied to any.

I've decided to look for some kind of internet based game that mirrors RL play as closely as possible: A weekly, bi-weekly or even monthly schedule so it will be a fun event I look forward too rather than work I need to do everyday. Voice-chat of some type is absolutely essential to build comraderie. Skype would work, but dedicated voice chat would be better and actually easy since the gaming (other) forum has a mumble server which I have contributed too in the past and could easily be expanded for dirt cheap if need be. There were actually plans to run games there a few months ago, but the times didn't work for me. I'm not sure if those ever got off the ground. Some kind of software to run the game (probably maptools) would be nice, but is actually probably the least important aspect.

Hmmmm... I should probably discuss with the others if the existence of the mumble server should be advertised in the PbP forums. It might help lots of groups there.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-15, 04:49 PM
Like a lot of people have said, it's a timezones issue/ As I am down under a lot of the action in my game happens very late at night, which is why it's always a treat to check it first thing in the morning. :smallbiggrin:

But after losing 50% of the players, I have a very good group now and have had since August. And that's because I have fought for it. Hard. If it seems to stall, I give a quick OOC post to ask what they are doing.

And don't be afraid to double post in games. Ever. I asked Roland about it once and he says it's ok in games. Sometimes I post five times in a row as a new post triggers people who have subscriptions rather than editing a post.

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-15, 05:08 PM
I would repeat the suggestion of forming a list of good and bad posters and only playing with the good ones (or at least just avoiding the bad ones). There absolutely are posters on this site who would follow through on a pbp and who would not leave you hanging. Persistence will help you find them. So don't lose faith in the medium, especially if it's the only one you can work with anyway.

Unlike some others, I personally have no problem with the long timescales in pbp. Heck, I could probably jump right back into any of the old games I've been in that died, and some of those petered out months ago. I guess it's just a matter of patience for certain things.

Quincunx
2010-12-15, 05:17 PM
If the game's not worth hanging around to post in it, no matter whose fault that may be, it's not worth hanging around to post a farewell either.

true_shinken
2010-12-15, 05:22 PM
If the game's not worth hanging around to post in it, no matter whose fault that may be, it's not worth hanging around to post a farewell either.
That's just unnecessarily rude.

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-15, 05:22 PM
If the game's not worth hanging around to post in it, no matter whose fault that may be, it's not worth hanging around to post a farewell either.

I disagree on this. Even if it's a bad game that I don't want to continue participating in, I would still consider it important to tell the others (especially the DM) that I was leaving. Now the post doesn't have to be completely honest, if you don't want a confrontation or something, but they still deserve to at least know that I'm leaving. This goes double if it appears that others are actually enjoying the game, since a failure to bow out right might interfere with them when they've really done nothing wrong.

Strawberries
2010-12-15, 05:24 PM
If the game's not worth hanging around to post in it, no matter whose fault that may be, it's not worth hanging around to post a farewell either.

Sorry Quincunx, I have to disagree. You may not like a game, for whatever reason, but you're playing with fellow human beings.
I'd consider basic politeness to say goodbye if you don't plan to stick around.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-15, 05:26 PM
Then, once they know you are leaving the DM can consider their options.

Orzel
2010-12-15, 05:48 PM
I had one great instance of PbP gaming. The RPG was homebrew by the DM and was resource based. Because the players had some shared resources and some individual, missing players just never used their shared resources. When the other warrior went missing for weeks, the priest and I were the only party members the blacksmith had to repair gear for. We also (with a vote) allowed basic (anything free, temporary, and nondangerous) usage of each other characters.

One of the main issues is the system, heavy action systems tend to be harder to play PbP when everyone aren't friends beforehand.

kyoryu
2010-12-15, 06:13 PM
Sorry Quincunx, I have to disagree. You may not like a game, for whatever reason, but you're playing with fellow human beings.
I'd consider basic politeness to say goodbye if you don't plan to stick around.

I am intrigued by your ideas, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Myth
2010-12-15, 06:26 PM
If your players and you as the DM don't have your insuline shots dependant on how fast the PbP game is updated, and you all focus on RPing and character interaction and development, the game will turn out fine. That's why I don't like weird silent and generally evil races for PCs in PbP.

edit: wow that was a mangled up post by me.

Strawberries
2010-12-15, 06:33 PM
I am intrigued by your ideas, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

I don't have a newsletter, sorry.

However, for the modest price of your immortal soul a trinket of no importance whatsoever you can join my cult and be one of my mindless minions one of my trusted advisors.

:smalltongue::smalltongue:

Tengu_temp
2010-12-15, 07:22 PM
Seeing how PbP are horribly slow and players randomly quit, I don't understand why people keep running them instead of MSN/chatroom games.

Because there are some parts where PbP is worse than a real-time game, but there are also some elements where it's much better. Just play with dedicated people who have a decent pace of posting and won't quit the game without any warning. The best games I ever played are all PbP.

Orzel
2010-12-15, 07:34 PM
Each game sysetm has it's own special participation requirement that must be met or the game lags. Some games need heavy post load to work, some need moderate, and others just need low (mostly straight RP).

Zeofar
2010-12-15, 07:40 PM
Seeing how PbP are horribly slow and players randomly quit, I don't understand why people keep running them instead of MSN/chatroom games. I can find forum games everywhere but it's nearly impossible to find an MSN game.

Just in case you want to know, there are a lot more real-time games run off of The Tangled Web than over here. So if you're into that, that's probably the place to look.


Each game sysetm has it's own special participation requirement that must be met or the game lags. Some games need heavy post load to work, some need moderate, and others just need low (mostly straight RP).

Really? Because, from what I've experienced, straight RP requires the highest post load to be kept active and immersive.

ericgrau
2010-12-15, 07:55 PM
This is the internet. Are you really surprised that people will do whatever they feel like doing? I agree with the various suggestions that bridge the cyber barrier. The more contact you maintain the less people can disappear without a second thought. I understand that there are things are more important than games but at least this way people won't flake on the slightest whim or without giving ways for others to accommodate them so they can stay or without at least giving a warning.

Orzel
2010-12-15, 07:58 PM
I mean the only way low post load can work in straight RP with few rules. Once one action heavily affects another, low doesn't seriously work.

Straight RP works best on heavy.

Eldan
2010-12-16, 08:08 AM
I've mostly given up on PbP, really. I've had awesome games in the past, but ever since coming here, I've never been in one that actually took off. I've just been talked into giving DMing a shot again now, with six players that were recommended to me as reliable.
Rundown so far:
Out of six players:
2 finished their characters and posted ingame.
2 finished their stories, but haven't posted yet, even though the OOC has been up several days.
1 has not written a backstory yet, despite knowing the deadline one week in advance.
1 has neither delivered sheet nor story.

Quincunx
2010-12-16, 08:54 AM
So, for the effort of posting that I don't want to continue posting, I got three people rebuking me (four if you count the original poster's diatribe), noticing that I had left, and potentially adding me to a gaming blacklist, whereas if I'd just faded out without a word I would have had zero people doing all this. I know what outcome looks better from the perspective of the lapsed player, and in return for the effort of posting, now you people who didn't understand why people would fade out without acknowledgment do also know.

There's been a deal of discussion about common politeness when ending a game, but only one person exercised it against my example. Thank you Claudius Maximus, and especially for making the point that the game will continue with or without one person leaving; that goes a long way towards removing the guilt of dropping out of a game, and with less guilt there's less of a social reason* to fade into silence.

*nothing to do with my isolated perspective, and more to do with players who can be coerced by obligations--but that's the sort you were assuming your players were

true_shinken
2010-12-16, 10:29 AM
So, for the effort of posting that I don't want to continue posting, I got three people rebuking me (four if you count the original poster's diatribe), noticing that I had left, and potentially adding me to a gaming blacklist, whereas if I'd just faded out without a word I would have had zero people doing all this. I know what outcome looks better from the perspective of the lapsed player, and in return for the effort of posting, now you people who didn't understand why people would fade out without acknowledgment do also know.
So just because apologizing could mean people actually know you did something wrong, you won't? I'm sorry, but I think this is both rude and selfish.

Strawberries
2010-12-16, 01:27 PM
So, for the effort of posting that I don't want to continue posting, I got three people rebuking me (four if you count the original poster's diatribe), noticing that I had left, and potentially adding me to a gaming blacklist, whereas if I'd just faded out without a word I would have had zero people doing all this. I know what outcome looks better from the perspective of the lapsed player, and in return for the effort of posting, now you people who didn't understand why people would fade out without acknowledgment do also know.

There's been a deal of discussion about common politeness when ending a game, but only one person exercised it against my example. Thank you Claudius Maximus, and especially for making the point that the game will continue with or without one person leaving; that goes a long way towards removing the guilt of dropping out of a game, and with less guilt there's less of a social reason* to fade into silence.

*nothing to do with my isolated perspective, and more to do with players who can be coerced by obligations--but that's the sort you were assuming your players were

I'm sorry, Quincunx, but I really have troubles following your reasoning. You got three people saying they disagree with you, with various degrees of eloquence (if you considered my post as lacking politeness, I apologize. I have troubles forming impersonal sentences in English and I end up using "you", which I recognize can be perceived as directed towards the poster).

As for the fact that the game will continue with or without one person leaving; that's true, but no one was disputing that.
We (or at least I) were saying that games usually die because people leave with no warning. When a person leaves suddenly, other people still wait for them to post - if you wait long enough you start pushing the game into the back of your mind (argh, there's that "you" again- impersonal sentence!) and stop posting altogheter. It's a sort of chain reaction.

EDIT: And you wouldn't be added to a gaming blacklist because you posted you wouldn't post anymore. The opposite, maybe (if you disappeared without a word, I'd be wary of gaming with you in the future).

PersonMan
2010-12-16, 04:01 PM
...potentially adding me to a gaming blacklist...

I don't have time to respond to the rest, but if I've been understanding peoples' posts correctly, then fading out is what gets you blacklisted, having to leave is fine.

herrhauptmann
2010-12-16, 04:32 PM
Out of curiosity, for those in PbP games. How often do you check on the game, both IC and OOC threads?

I realize that I probably count as internet addicted, but I tend to check at least once a day. If a lot is happening, I'll probably have both IC and OOC in separate tabs on teh browser. I don't read them according to time stamp, but it makes it a little easier to understand why everyone's making a will save.

And yes, so far, I probably am the annoying one who contacts others telling them it's their turn.

But I don't think it should take someone 4 days to post their turn, especially when they're on the forums at least as often as I am. That includes the person who originally started a thread in the recruitment section asking for players and DM.
So far, I also tend to be the one who recaps what's happened to someone who must be functionally braindead. 3 times they ask if they're still under condition X, and get told "no, you were the first person to get dispelled," by both players and DM.

Definitely makes me not want to actually complete an awesome character idea I had. Why waste the character, and the time spent on it, for a game that won't make it to the third round of combat?


As far as dropping out. I'll actually be incommunicado for most of the semester break, so I ask in the OOC threads if someone could roll for my characters in combat, just to keep things going.

kamikasei
2010-12-16, 04:40 PM
So, for the effort of posting that I don't want to continue posting, I got three people rebuking me (four if you count the original poster's diatribe), noticing that I had left, and potentially adding me to a gaming blacklist, whereas if I'd just faded out without a word I would have had zero people doing all this.
Are you talking about something that happened in a PbP, or about this thread?

Out of curiosity, for those in PbP games. How often do you check on the game, both IC and OOC threads?
I subscribe to a game's threads and keep my subscriptions open in a tab whenever I'm browsing. I'm generally online at least once a day, and usually a lot more. Not that this necessarily means I always post within a day of my cue coming up, though. *cough*

kyoryu
2010-12-16, 04:55 PM
So, for the effort of posting that I don't want to continue posting, I got three people rebuking me (four if you count the original poster's diatribe), noticing that I had left, and potentially adding me to a gaming blacklist, whereas if I'd just faded out without a word I would have had zero people doing all this. I know what outcome looks better from the perspective of the lapsed player, and in return for the effort of posting, now you people who didn't understand why people would fade out without acknowledgment do also know.

There's been a deal of discussion about common politeness when ending a game, but only one person exercised it against my example. Thank you Claudius Maximus, and especially for making the point that the game will continue with or without one person leaving; that goes a long way towards removing the guilt of dropping out of a game, and with less guilt there's less of a social reason* to fade into silence.

*nothing to do with my isolated perspective, and more to do with players who can be coerced by obligations--but that's the sort you were assuming your players were

I can't imagine that anyone would "rebuke" someone for saying that they won't be able to play in a game any more. The rebukes usually come when people drop out *without* warning, leaving the rest of the players wondering if it's safe to continue with the game or not.

The "blacklist" idea was for people that leave games *without* notifying anyone. There's been no suggestion that anyone that just took the simple time to say "hey, can't play any more" would ever get on a blacklist.

The whole point of telling people you're not going to play any more is so that *they* don't have to wait around for *you*. If someone did give you a hard time for just saying, "Hey, things have come up, can't play any more," then I'd say that they're the ones being jerks.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-12-16, 05:06 PM
Out of curiosity, for those in PbP games. How often do you check on the game, both IC and OOC threads?

Just to add to the input, I have to do a lot on the internet, I go to college online, and as a programmer, I check debug reports in my browser, so I very frequently have it up. I just added my subscriptions to be among my home pages, so I generally know when there's been a post in a PbP I've been playing in. Even if I don't have time to post at the moment, I still read it right then and there.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-16, 05:07 PM
The whole point of telling people you're not going to play any more is so that *they* don't have to wait around for *you*. If someone did give you a hard time for just saying, "Hey, things have come up, can't play any more," then I'd say that they're the ones being jerks.

Agreed! People usually are a lot more understanding if you are honest with them about things like this.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-12-16, 05:10 PM
I think what Quincunx is saying is that when you announce you're leaving, and it's not for extenuating circumstances like RL, the other players and the GM might take it as an insult.

"Oh, our game's not good enough for you, huh? Well screw you, we'll never play with you again, you jerkwad!"

Tyndmyr
2010-12-16, 05:12 PM
I realize that I probably count as internet addicted, but I tend to check at least once a day.

Im gonna guess that this is part of the problem. I don't mean you specifically, I mean different expectations of activity levels. Some people are down with posting every single day, or even more often. Other people simply can't maintain that level of activity. I can guarantee that no matter how much I enjoy a game, there will be days when I literally cannot post, sometimes a couple in a row. Illness, ridiculous work hours, or the like happen.

After all, the odds of one or two people out of say, five or six having something exceptional happen within the first month of posting is...fairly good. I'd say nearly guaranteed.

I suspect that laying out standards for expected activity level at game creation might help with this. At least, that way everyone knows what they're expected to do, and you don't have people who can't keep up, and other people giving up because they see little or no activity.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-16, 05:17 PM
I think what Quincunx is saying is that when you announce you're leaving, and it's not for extenuating circumstances like RL, the other players and the GM might take it as an insult.

"Oh, our game's not good enough for you, huh? Well screw you, we'll never play with you again, you jerkwad!"

Yeah, but it's worse just to leave without warning and have the game die.

kamikasei
2010-12-16, 05:20 PM
I think what Quincunx is saying is that when you announce you're leaving, and it's not for extenuating circumstances like RL, the other players and the GM might take it as an insult.

"Oh, our game's not good enough for you, huh? Well screw you, we'll never play with you again, you jerkwad!"
What she appears to be saying - unless she's referring to a real incident from a PbP - is that she thinks those posters who criticized her here would insult and blacklist her if she posted in a PbP to say she had to withdraw. Which is... not a reasonable extrapolation from their saying that withdrawing with no notice to that effect would be rude. So, I'm wondering if I've misread.

kyoryu
2010-12-16, 05:20 PM
I think what Quincunx is saying is that when you announce you're leaving, and it's not for extenuating circumstances like RL, the other players and the GM might take it as an insult.

"Oh, our game's not good enough for you, huh? Well screw you, we'll never play with you again, you jerkwad!"

Then they're being jerks. "Hey, some stuff has come up, and I've had to shift some priorities. I don't think I can play any more." How can anyone find that offensive?

Even, "Hey guys, sorry, but this game isn't quite going the way I thought it would, and I don't think it's really for me at this time" isn't particularly offensive.

Now, if you posted, "your game sucks and it's boring and you're all meanie poopy-heads!" Well... maybe you'll get flamed a bit.

Orzel
2010-12-16, 05:25 PM
This thread is gonna make me finish my "missing person proof" homebrew RPG.

Tyndmyr
2010-12-16, 05:32 PM
This thread is gonna make me finish my "missing person proof" homebrew RPG.

If you can make such a thing, Im sure it'll be well received.

I once participated in a more freeform sandbox RPG for a while. It didn't have nearly the problems with dropouts...because the game was structured such that it wasn't a problem. People could spontaneously join up with whoever for whatever length of time, and there was no requirement for them always to be active.

I suspect that part of the problem is that most RPGs are designed with pbp as an afterthought, if it's considered at all.

kyoryu
2010-12-16, 05:38 PM
If you can make such a thing, Im sure it'll be well received.

I once participated in a more freeform sandbox RPG for a while. It didn't have nearly the problems with dropouts...because the game was structured such that it wasn't a problem. People could spontaneously join up with whoever for whatever length of time, and there was no requirement for them always to be active.

I suspect that part of the problem is that most RPGs are designed with pbp as an afterthought, if it's considered at all.

Ultimately, I like this solution. Presume that player dropout (unannounced) will happen, and make sure that the game works in such a way that it tolerates it.

Orzel
2010-12-16, 05:49 PM
That is how my pbp rpg game will be designed. Essentially you don't need anyone to do anything, they just help you if they are there and do nothing if they aren't. If your party's warrior drops midfight, no worries... you don't have to wait for him nor need him to kill the dragon.

... you just ain't killing the next one anytime soon, so rest up.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-16, 05:50 PM
Too bad 4E goes directly against that sort of mentality...:smallsigh:

BudgetDM
2010-12-16, 05:51 PM
Out of curiosity, for those in PbP games. How often do you check on the game, both IC and OOC threads?


3-4 Times a day. This probably is mostly because of the excitement of getting involved in a new PbP. Theoretically, I would probably stop doing this once the game gets settled, but that has never happened. I've had 2 GMs back out because of real life, which is fine. What I hate, as has been discussed in this thread, are GMs that just stop posting without a word.

Fortunately for me, one of the players in one of my games decided that they were having to much fun to quit and took over GMing.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-16, 05:59 PM
Out of curiosity, for those in PbP games. How often do you check on the game, both IC and OOC threads?


At least 3-4 times a day, more if I am bored as I have Net on my phone.

Strawberries
2010-12-16, 06:54 PM
Out of curiosity, for those in PbP games. How often do you check on the game, both IC and OOC threads?.

Every time I log in on the forum (3 to 5 times a day). I have both IC and OOC threads subscribed, and my subscribtions are the first thing I check when logging in. Sometimes when the work day has been rough they are the ONLY things I check.

kyoryu
2010-12-16, 07:03 PM
Too bad 4E goes directly against that sort of mentality...:smallsigh:

Why, any more than any other game?

If I were to run a 4E PbP game (and I haven't done PbP in over 20 years, so...) I'd probably start with a policy of update time. In combat, players would tell me what their overall strategy was, as well as what specific actions they wanted to take that specific turn.

If a player doesn't post an action, I make the best call I can based upon the strategy they gave me.

I see this working reasonably well for in-combat scenarios. For out-of-combat, I'm less sure as to why the system matters *that* much.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-12-16, 07:07 PM
Why, any more than any other game?

If I were to run a 4E PbP game (and I haven't done PbP in over 20 years, so...) I'd probably start with a policy of update time. In combat, players would tell me what their overall strategy was, as well as what specific actions they wanted to take that specific turn.

If a player doesn't post an action, I make the best call I can based upon the strategy they gave me.

I see this working reasonably well for in-combat scenarios. For out-of-combat, I'm less sure as to why the system matters *that* much.

Hmm, the combat strategies strikes me as a very good idea, might have to implement that my next game I DM.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-16, 07:40 PM
The problem is that 4E depends on specialised roles working together, you may disagree but this is what I have noticed and how I run it. A person leaving unexpectedly can leave a sizable gap in the party, and if a DM has based the encounters on the party as they began with, then this can get really funky.

And it's why my second-round recruitment for ToH was somewhat more specific, as we needed a good controller and someone good with traps. Players wanted me to specify classes but I'm not that mean.

Add to that if the person who leaves unexpectedly is the linch pin of the story, and them leaving would take a lot of plot wrangling.

As for encounters, I don't use initiative in my games. At all. It's something I learned from Enworld and it works rather well. Players post their turn in whatever order they can, if they want to delay they have to wait. Then I come in with my turn for the monsters. Then there is usually 24 hour wait in case anyone wants to come in with an interrupt or reaction, but this gets less and less as the encounter goes on. Then, when the time is up or it's clear no one is going to post, I give them the go signal.

Interrupts for monsters are usually when I can manage it, as I can't always do it after the relevant players turn.

But what I hate most of all is when I have finished my update post, hit "save changes"....and the server goes down! I save it and post it again, but it is still annoying,

kyoryu
2010-12-16, 08:26 PM
The problem is that 4E depends on specialised roles working together, you may disagree but this is what I have noticed and how I run it. A person leaving unexpectedly can leave a sizable gap in the party, and if a DM has based the encounters on the party as they began with, then this can get really funky.

Or, in the general case, if you've tailored the game to a specific party composition and it changes, you have to do significant rework.

I don't agree on the fact that 4e wants specific roles, especially in the published stuff, but it's the kind of thing that you can work around if necessary.


Add to that if the person who leaves unexpectedly is the linch pin of the story, and them leaving would take a lot of plot wrangling.

Yup. My idea there would handle players leaving in the middle of an encounter relatively well. But, I think a slightly more sandboxy approach may work better with PbP games. If the game isn't dependent on a specific player, it can't self destruct without 'em.

Of course, I don't have the PbP experience you do, so I'm mostly just hypothesizing and waxing philosophical. I'm also a bit old-school in my thinking, but it seems that games that aren't tailored around a specific party have a better chance to survive character churn - which is pretty much inevitable, in my experience.


Then there is usually 24 hour wait in case anyone wants to come in with an interrupt or reaction, but this gets less and less as the encounter goes on. Then, when the time is up or it's clear no one is going to post, I give them the go signal.

I'd probably ban interrupts in a PbP game. Or, at the minimum, I'd require that interrupts be posted *in advance* as part of a strategy. "If monster does x, I'll interrupt".

I really get the feeling that "tell me your action, with contingency plans" is probably the best way to do things, in general. If you do a "monsters move, then players move" kind of thing that would probably make it easier, as there's a guaranteed gap in the middle for players to respond to enemy actions.

How to turn 4e (or any RPG, really) into an effective PbP system is a pretty interesting thought exercise.

Katana_Geldar
2010-12-16, 08:34 PM
I thought of that too, having the contingency plan but the 24 hour thing works surprsingly well. And banning interrupts outright is far too mean, for the simple reason that the monsters I amd using have them. A lot of classes depend on them.

Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9833211&postcount=320) the last encounter that I did, and it went swimmingly for the players. In the last three rounds I was more or less reacting to them.

The reason I say the specific roles thing is because I have seen it work so well from a DM's perspective. But not all characters need to fit into the mould. Players who optimise their characters tend to be a lot more important in encounters than others, like the Dragonborn Pally in my real life group.