Magic items - what am I paying for exactly? (PF)

[WarKitty]

Player 1: "Ok, barbarian, I'll get started on crafting that amulet of natural armor you wanted. I need 4000gp for supplies."

Player 2: "Here's the 4000gp."

Player 1: "I go shopping for supplies for the crafting."

DM: "What exactly are you shopping for?"

Player 1: "Ummmm...some bone? And a cord. Yeah, that's what I need."

DM: "For 4000gp?"

Yeah, you get the point. What exactly *am* I spending that 4000gp on? There's a lot of magic items out there that seem to be made out of very basic materials. I presume the extra items would be consumed, but how exactly? Am I lighting giant bonfires of exotic gems every night?

Edit: Rule of Cool is in full effect here. I want a good fun answer for when my DM asks. Fun as in cool/neat, not too silly though (wrong kind of game).

[Shadowleaf]

Mechanically: You're paying for the XP it takes to craft the item.

Fluff-wise: I've always loved the idea of magical essence. Basicly, magic can take solid form under some circumstances. This form is called 'essence', and can be distilled and made into a potion, it can be extracted and used for magic items, it can be used as volatile explosives, etc. It also explains why some places are more magical than others (i.e. more essence in the air/ground, for example).

[WarKitty]

Mechanically: You're paying for the XP it takes to craft the item.

Sorry, Pathfinder. Also, I'm crafting the thing myself.

[Thurbane]

Early editions of D&D went into a lot more details about what sort of exotic materials are required for magic items...3.X leaves it a lot more abstract.

Monster body parts were popular (heart of a bullette, eye of a basilisk etc.), also immaterial things such as "the laughter of a child" or "friendship of a dragon"...as well as the inevitable rare gems, metals, plants and other materials.

...unless you want a really high level of detail and complexity in your games, probably best to leave it abstract.

[Pyron]

I don't know if there is a official answer, but here's one that worked well in some previous games.

Fluffy-wise, magic items comes from an essence of magic trapped inside the precious metals and gemstones which is extracted from the wizard during the creation process. This consumes the materials in the process.

So, basically - yeah, your lightning bonfires of gold coins.

[GoatBoy]

A famous artist (some say it was Picasso) was eating in a restaurant, when a lady recognized him and walked up to say hello. After a brief chat, she asked if he could do a quick portrait for her. He agreed, on the condition that she pay him ten thousand dollars. The woman scoffed and asked, "why would I pay ten thousand dollars for a picture you drew in a minute?" The artist replied, "you are not paying me for this picture, you are paying for the ten thousand pictures and lifetime of practice it took for me to learn to draw."

[WarKitty]

I don't know if there is a official answer, but here's one that worked well in some previous games.

Fluffy-wise, magic items comes from an essence of magic trapped inside the precious metals and gemstones which is extracted from the wizard during the creation process. This consumes the materials in the process.

So, basically - yeah, your lightning bonfires of gold coins.

Not bad, although not sure it works that well for a cleric or druid, since they don't really feel like they'd use magic essence that way.


A famous artist (some say it was Picasso) was eating in a restaurant, when a lady recognized him and walked up to say hello. After a brief chat, she asked if he could do a quick portrait for her. He agreed, on the condition that she pay him ten thousand dollars. The woman scoffed and asked, "why would I pay ten thousand dollars for a picture you drew in a minute?" The artist replied, "you are not paying me for this picture, you are paying for the ten thousand pictures and lifetime of practice it took for me to learn to draw."

Still doesn't work when you're crafting it yourself, though. Sure I'd charge people for my time and learning if I was selling it. But what am I buying all those supplies for?

[Thurbane]

Also, consider the expensive material compenents many spells have - the item creation process might chew up similar consumables (gems, precious metal dust, incense, various laboratory supplies, herbs, oil etc.)

[Starbuck_II]

Player 1: "Ok, barbarian, I'll get started on that amulet of natural armor you wanted. I need 4000gp for supplies."

Player 2: "Here's the 4000gp."

Player 1: "I go shopping for supplies for the crafting."

DM: "What exactly are you shopping for?"

Player 1: "Ummmm...some bone? And a cord. Yeah, that's what I need."

DM: "For 4000gp?"

Yeah, you get the point. What exactly *am* I spending that 4000gp on? There's a lot of magic items out there that seem to be made out of very basic materials. I presume the extra items would be consumed, but how exactly? Am I lighting giant bonfires of exotic gems every night?

You are spending it on drinks while you make the thing. When you wake from your drunken stupor: the thing is done. This explains how cursed items happen occasionally.

[Galileo]

You are spending it on drinks while you make the thing. When you wake from your drunken stupor: the thing is done. This explains how cursed items happen occasionally.

Well, that explains why you can't really do anything else while crafting.

[Halae]

The way I see it, creating magic items requires rituals, which in and of themselves require you to set up a lab, get all the materials for the ritual (such as, I don't know, magically created incense) as well as parts from monsters from the local mage's guild or something. this explains it, for the most part. I mean, after all, it takes 25 gold worth of special ink for a wizard to write spells in his spellbook per page.

[Safety Sword]

Lab consumables.

[Shadowleaf]

The way I see it, creating magic items requires rituals, which in and of themselves require you to set up a lab, get all the materials for the ritual (such as, I don't know, magically created incense) as well as parts from monsters from the local mage's guild or something. this explains it, for the most part. I mean, after all, it takes 25 gold worth of special ink for a wizard to write spells in his spellbook per page.And Power Word: Blind takes up seven pages. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html)
:smallbiggrin:

[WarKitty]

Lab consumables.

Detail? Especially since I have a hard time seeing a divine caster using a lab. Or a sorcerer, for that matter. The whole image of a druid or cleric sitting in a lab mixing things...eww no.

[Androgeus]

Most likely a list like this (http://pobotrol.blogspot.com/2008/01/ingredients-of-grog.html)

[SurlySeraph]

And Power Word: Blind takes up seven pages. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html)
:smallbiggrin:

One word + 7 pages on how exactly to enunciate it, how to project your voice so that it targets correctly, why you can't just say the word without preparing the spell, etc.

[Pyron]

Not bad, although not sure it works that well for a cleric or druid, since they don't really feel like they'd use magic essence that way.

I personally don't see why not. I was a playing a druid and saw no problem

Although, there is another alternative for a divine caster. Instead of extraction the essence (or breath of Corellon, as it was called), you can simply use the gold and gems as an offering to your deity, who will (in exchange) bless one of your items with divine magic (hence, producing a wondrous item).

[Thurbane]

WarKitty, you seem to have asked the question, and then ignored or dismissed all the suggestions given. Are you looking for a case to take to your DM that the cost should be dropped?

[Safety Sword]

Detail? Especially since I have a hard time seeing a divine caster using a lab. Or a sorcerer, for that matter. The whole image of a druid or cleric sitting in a lab mixing things...eww no.

You need "stuff" to bind the magic to the items (or some such other convenient expensive explanation). I don't know: newts testicles, chicken breasts in a white wine sauce (the good wine, not the one you give to family that drops around unannounced), feet of cat. That sort of thing.

Weird stuff that is expensive. Make it up!

[WarKitty]

I personally don't see why not. I was a playing a druid and saw no problem

Although, there is another alternative for a divine caster. Instead of extraction the essence (or breath of Corellon, as it was called), you can simply use the gold and gems as an offering to your deity, who will (in exchange) bless one of your items with divine magic (hence, producing a wondrous item).

I mean, it could work for some characters. I just happen to be playing a rather feral druid with no taste for such mechanical toys as "labs" and a devotion to a deity with a strict aversion to temples. Not really sure what to do with gp costs like that.

[HunterOfJello]

Well, first of all you're probably paying for a mundane item that looks similar to what the final product will look like. A Belt of Giant's Strength will likely require you to buy a belt at some point during the supply purchasing phase. After that, you can make up whatever fluff you like depending on the item.

A Belt of Giant's Strength might require some pieces of bone from an actual giant, a belt made out of a certain type of leather, metal that has been magically enhanced or was once part of a different magical item, thread that has been weaved in with a unicorn's tail hair, some fingernail clippings or hair from a Shapechanger allowing the belt to change to any necessary size, and other assorted materials.

[rubycona]

Magic essences are really a good way to go, as another poster commented.

Sometimes you can get them in fun ways! Like, my character met a dragon (two dragons, actually) for the first time, and was so inspired, she decided she had to share something with them. She danced (max ranks) and the bard sang and used magics to back it up. Some damned good rolls on both our parts, and the dragon was so impressed, she shed a single tear. Dragons don't cry, and this tear was, in fact, a crystalized essence of the dragon's power.

Fun stuff! I could use it for enchanting (if it didn't have such sentimental value XD), but it would be worth loads of gold. You can make it fun, interesting, and variable... and an entirely valid source for the lost cash.

[Grelna the Blue]

I still use 1st Ed flavor for item creation in my game. The money involved goes not only to rare incense and powdered gems, but also to even rarer or harder to get ingredients and exotic processes that make mundane crafting more expensive. A Cloak of Resistance + 1 might require nothing much more difficult than cloth woven of virgin wool from a sheep's first shearing, the weaving done only on Tuesdays between 11:30 and 12:30 and stitched with a golden needle by a person of good character. A Bag of Holding might require a naga's stomach sac and the item creator to fast during the enchantment process. The advantage to this method is that not only does it give the player something to roleplay in this process (how do you know that needlewoman is "of good character"), but it allows the player to occasionally gather substances during adventuring that would otherwise cost hundreds or thousands of gold. Instead of paying an adventuring party to retrieve the heartsblood of a mature red dragon for a Ring of Greater Energy Resistance (fire), that dragon that the itemcrafter's party just killed in the course of an adventure will yield it up for free, assuming the character came prepared with a few spare empty vials. Of course, it would have been handy to have the ring before that fight, but...

There are very few "magic shops" in my game, but those that exist don't carry much in the way of already-enchanted items. Their biggest stock is crafting components, many purchased from adventurers, that are probably labeled in code to discourage thieves. If someone wants to buy a crafted item, the shop will work with a crafter known to them, which explains the huge markup.

[Jack_Simth]

Player 1: "Ok, barbarian, I'll get started on that amulet of natural armor you wanted. I need 4000gp for supplies."

Player 2: "Here's the 4000gp."

Player 1: "I go shopping for supplies for the crafting."

DM: "What exactly are you shopping for?"

Player 1: "Ummmm...some bone? And a cord. Yeah, that's what I need."

DM: "For 4000gp?"

Yeah, you get the point. What exactly *am* I spending that 4000gp on? There's a lot of magic items out there that seem to be made out of very basic materials. I presume the extra items would be consumed, but how exactly? Am I lighting giant bonfires of exotic gems every night?

Edit: Rule of Cool is in full effect here. I want a good fun answer for when my DM asks. Fun as in cool/neat, not too silly though (wrong kind of game).

If my DM asks me?

Magical circuitry. I'm burning fairly exotic materials to make very fine lines of gold & platinum inside the item, which will continually draw on local mana fields to power a particular effect.

[Defiant]

One word + 7 pages on how exactly to enunciate it, how to project your voice so that it targets correctly, why you can't just say the word without preparing the spell, etc.

Yeah, I always figured that... but that comic is so funny! :smallsmile:

[JeminiZero]

The gold goes towards bribing Reality to ignore the rules of physics for that particularly item. And of course, the more you bend the rules of physics, the bigger the bribe you must pay, to have the Fabric of Reality look the other way. Which is why liches locked away deep underground can convert gold to items without leaving their lairs for various components.

In essence, when you are enchanting the item, you are magically transferring the gold to Reality's Interplanar Swiss Bank Account. Because the act is illegal, (by the rules of physics anyway), the transfer has to be done slowly, in small untraceable sums, laundered halfway across the multiverse. Which is why stronger items with bigger bribes take longer to enchant.

[Dimers]

I like my item components to be related to the spells involved somehow. For your natural armor example, perhaps you need a hide from a rare and tough beast (say, rhinocerous) that has been prepared by months of disgusting, smelly labor and chemical/alchemical baths. Your feral druid respects the beast's toughness but still recognizes that tanning can make the hide even tougher. The rarity of the hide, the unusually long and nasty labor, and the special tinctures and solvents required all have their costs. And to bind the power in a way that a non-rhinocerous can use, the necklace must include an unbroken ring of semiprecious stones -- onyx or polished marble would be good choices, according to this book (http://www.amazon.com/Cunninghams-Encyclopedia-Crystal-Metal-Magic/dp/0875421261/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1292385744&sr=1-1). Add in merchants' fees, the cost of minor magical hardening for the flimsy jewelry, the expense of your rituals to block out bad spirits' influence so that the item isn't cursed ... plenty enough to bring you up to 4000 gp.

Er, so I hope this addresses the original topic. The necklace itself might just be smoothed rock chips on a thick copper wire, but that's just the end result, not the process.

[Tvtyrant]

A Druid would be using a lab; it would just be a nature-lab. So a glade of old growth trees exceeding 500 years old, an altar strewn with rare herbs and flowers that draw on the power of nature, and the actual item to be made. As you cast the spells to make it flower petals dance in hypnotic patterns in the air around you, slowly gathering into a ball around the item and then transforming into light and merging with the item. All of the herbs and flowers are gone, and only the completed item remains glimmering in the warm sunlight.

[SurlySeraph]

I just happen to be playing a rather feral druid with no taste for such mechanical toys as "labs" and a devotion to a deity with a strict aversion to temples. Not really sure what to do with gp costs like that.

Then you can use it to represent buying or trading for rare materials from nature, like satyr hooves, dire bear spleens, etc. Or throwing away or destroying the money to appease your god's dislike of the trappings of civilization to get him to instill his power into the item. Or living expenses + the opportunity cost of not doing other work while you live in nature gathering the necessary components.

[WarKitty]

Then you can use it to represent buying or trading for rare materials from nature, like satyr hooves, dire bear spleens, etc. Or throwing away or destroying the money to appease your god's dislike of the trappings of civilization to get him to instill his power into the item. Or living expenses + the opportunity cost of not doing other work while you live in nature gathering the necessary components.

Rare materials might work, although I was hoping for something a little...less videogame-y. Reminds me of "collect five arctic wolf tails to unlock the magic sword" a bit too much. Not so much on the monetary sacrifice - think Estanna, not Obad-Hai.

[Cealocanth]

I believe you're paying for the trouble the Wizard goes through to enchant that item and retrieve the materials. You're right tough, it does seem a bit high for a bit of bone and a cord. This is where your own personal campaign reasoning comes into play. For example, in my campaign, it's to cover the risk of radiation exposure, possession, or both that stem from creating an item like this.

[WarKitty]

I believe you're paying for the trouble the Wizard goes through to enchant that item and retrieve the materials. You're right tough, it does seem a bit high for a bit of bone and a cord. This is where your own personal campaign reasoning comes into play. For example, in my campaign, it's to cover the risk of radiation exposure, possession, or both that stem from creating an item like this.

...we're talking about the cost the caster pays for raw materials. And I'm so far not coming up with any good explanations on my own.

[Thurbane]

A wide array of suggestions have been made by various posters. Are none of them suitable for your needs?

[ericgrau]

Well as said most costly spell components are gem dust and costly items assembled from gems. Some magic items even include gems that crumble to dust when the item is used up. I'd put my money on costly or rare items. Some of the suggestions for costly metamagic spell components could fit too:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/metamagicComponents.htm#specificMetamagicComponent s

[WarKitty]

A wide array of suggestions have been made by various posters. Are none of them suitable for your needs?

Most of them seem to either not fit with the type of character I'm playing, or are just too abstract to really provide the type of ideas I need. Like I said, the components from rare plants/animals seems like a decent idea if you could get it away from the whole video-game "kill 20 frost wolves and collect their hearts" mentality. The ritual idea is nice as well, but I'm again having trouble seeing how it would work out. Particularly since I can't well involve my party in a nice long quest just for an amulet of natural armor +2, either.

[Tvtyrant]

Okay, make it work with the four elements system. To make an item you have to gather materials that create the right balance of Earth, Fire, Water and Air to be able to maintain the magic indefinitely.

[Rockphed]

As a druid, you probably do the enchanting in old growth forest glades or primordial swamps. Clerics would do it in the inner sanctum of a temple to their god. Sorcerers would probably either use a lab or just follow the "drink until you create the item" strategy. Yeah, that is what sorcerers do. Favored souls would go to a mountain top to commune with their God, coming back with the gold reformed into the item desired.

Your components include the first drop of a rainstorm, a single moonbeam, the first flower of spring, unicorn hair, a leaf from a treant, the last ember of a forest fire, glass formed by a lightning strike, complete ox spines, rosebuds from the dark side of the moon, a pebble from the top of a mountain, and large amounts of holly and mistletoe.

That help? I don't know where you would do your crafting, but it would be somewhere with a strong tie to nature. Or, crafting would involve reclaiming somewhere for nature, and as the final brick crumbles to dust, you reach into the ground at the base of the seemingly ageless tree that is really all of 5 hours old and draw forth the item. In that case, you would be buying explosives. Lots of them.

[Grelna the Blue]

Rare materials might work, although I was hoping for something a little...less videogame-y. Reminds me of "collect five arctic wolf tails to unlock the magic sword" a bit too much. Not so much on the monetary sacrifice - think Estanna, not Obad-Hai.

Videogames incorporate lots of stuff we accept as normal in D&D. For instance, except in Dragonlance, gold is the standard medium of value in most D&D settings. We fight dragons with pointy pieces of metal called swords. Just because elves or dwarves are common in WoW, we don't give them up (although we might for other reasons). We shouldn't avoid stuff just because videogames do it too--we just have to try to make whatever game element it is better and more flavorful.

As a GM, I like the rare material route because aside from the flavor, it allows me to occasionally hand out rewards aside from unexciting money. A phase spider may not have any normal treasure, but its silk is used in the creation of Portable Holes (it says so right in the DMG description of the item) together with strands of ether and beams of starlight. A party that has someone who makes a successful Spellcraft check can profit thereby even if it has no one planning to make such an item. And in the effort to find an itemcrafter buyer, they may gain a connection that will prove useful later, allowing magical items to enter the party in a more natural way. As long as the rare materials stay rare and only sometimes come into play, I think the usual videogame suffers in comparison.

[WarKitty]

As a druid, you probably do the enchanting in old growth forest glades or primordial swamps. Clerics would do it in the inner sanctum of a temple to their god. Sorcerers would probably either use a lab or just follow the "drink until you create the item" strategy. Yeah, that is what sorcerers do. Favored souls would go to a mountain top to commune with their God, coming back with the gold reformed into the item desired.

Your components include the first drop of a rainstorm, a single moonbeam, the first flower of spring, unicorn hair, a leaf from a treant, the last ember of a forest fire, glass formed by a lightning strike, complete ox spines, rosebuds from the dark side of the moon, a pebble from the top of a mountain, and large amounts of holly and mistletoe.

That help? I don't know where you would do your crafting, but it would be somewhere with a strong tie to nature. Or, crafting would involve reclaiming somewhere for nature, and as the final brick crumbles to dust, you reach into the ground at the base of the seemingly ageless tree that is really all of 5 hours old and draw forth the item. In that case, you would be buying explosives. Lots of them.

Not a bad start. I'm really shying away from the standard middle of the woods untouched nature idea in favor of a rural farming idea. My character would be much more comfortable out in the barn helping a mare give birth, checking on the health of the wheat fields, then returning to the hut to prepare a healing stew for the farmer's sick son. None of this spending your days out in a grove yelling at woodsmen stuff.


Videogames incorporate lots of stuff we accept as normal in D&D. For instance, except in Dragonlance, gold is the standard medium of value in most D&D settings. We fight dragons with pointy pieces of metal called swords. Just because elves or dwarves are common in WoW, we don't give them up (although we might for other reasons). We shouldn't avoid stuff just because videogames do it too--we just have to try to make whatever game element it is better and more flavorful.

As a GM, I like the rare material route because aside from the flavor, it allows me to occasionally hand out rewards aside from unexciting money. A phase spider may not have any normal treasure, but its silk is used in the creation of Portable Holes (it says so right in the DMG description of the item) together with strands of ether and beams of starlight. A party that has someone who makes a successful Spellcraft check can profit thereby even if it has no one planning to make such an item. And in the effort to find an itemcrafter buyer, they may gain a connection that will prove useful later, allowing magical items to enter the party in a more natural way. As long as the rare materials stay rare and only sometimes come into play, I think the usual videogame suffers in comparison.

I like the idea in principle, but the rest of the party and the DM don't want to go out of their way to provide quests and loot for making magic items. We still want to be able to take care of this in town, or at least at some point within our normal quests.

[Marnath]

I like the idea in principle, but the rest of the party and the DM don't want to go out of their way to provide quests and loot for making magic items. We still want to be able to take care of this in town, or at least at some point within our normal quests.

Then I guess you'll have to be satisfied with buying vaguely defined reagents in a store. Why did you ask for detailed and exacting fluff if you are never going to make time to actually do it that way?:smallconfused:

[Safety Sword]

Then I guess you'll have to be satisfied with buying vaguely defined reagents in a store. Why did you ask for detailed and exacting fluff if you are never going to make time to actually do it that way?:smallconfused:

This is the reason you say "expensive components" and just be done with it.

[WarKitty]

Then I guess you'll have to be satisfied with buying vaguely defined reagents in a store. Why did you ask for detailed and exacting fluff if you are never going to make time to actually do it that way?:smallconfused:

I asked for interesting, non-generic fluff. I don't see why adding that in requires making my party go on long quests just to get the items they want? There's got to be some middle ground here between "I buy some vague stuff that I have no idea how I'm using" and "let's go on a quest to the jungle mountain to slay a dire rhinoceros so you can get an extra +2 to your AC."

[Grelna the Blue]

I like the idea in principle, but the rest of the party and the DM don't want to go out of their way to provide quests and loot for making magic items. We still want to be able to take care of this in town, or at least at some point within our normal quests.

Sure, that's the default method for most crafters. They buy their stuff from magic shops or other people, not from going and getting it themselves. But you said earlier
I want a good fun answer for when my DM asks. Fun as in cool/neat, not too silly though (wrong kind of game).You don't have to worry about whether the components are available if it's assumed they are. You can just come up with whatever you want that seems thematically appropriate and say you spent 4000 gold on it.

Of course, Rockphed had a very good alternative method for a divine crafter:
Or, crafting would involve reclaiming somewhere for nature, and as the final brick crumbles to dust, you reach into the ground at the base of the seemingly ageless tree that is really all of 5 hours old and draw forth the item. In that case, you would be buying explosives. Lots of them.I'd prefer to reach up and extract the ring from the nut or fruit hanging directly above my head or break the twig-wand off a branch, but regardless, the Cool Factor is pretty strong. You don't have to make your GM come up with whatever divine quest you're doing if your GM isn't interested in doing so. You can just say that you did it, so long as your roll was successful and it wasn't something that drastically changed the game world.

[Safety Sword]

I asked for interesting, non-generic fluff. I don't see why adding that in requires making my party go on long quests just to get the items they want? There's got to be some middle ground here between "I buy some vague stuff that I have no idea how I'm using" and "let's go on a quest to the jungle mountain to slay a dire rhinoceros so you can get an extra +2 to your AC."

The middle ground is to say "I go to the dire rhinoceros parts shop" and get everything I need. Your character presumably DOES know how it all works. They have the crafting feat.

It doesn't have any in-game effect. So make it up, pay the gold and move on. Explain the fluff however you like. It doesn't matter.

[WarKitty]

The middle ground is to say "I go to the dire rhinoceros parts shop" and get everything I need. Your character presumably DOES know how it all works. They have the crafting feat.

It doesn't have any in-game effect. So make it up, pay the gold and move on. Explain the fluff however you like. It doesn't matter.

That would be the part I was looking for help on in the first place.

[Coidzor]

Not bad, although not sure it works that well for a cleric or druid, since they don't really feel like they'd use magic essence that way.

Magic is Magic, no matter if you're a Mac or a PC. :smallconfused:

[Marnath]

I asked for interesting, non-generic fluff. I don't see why adding that in requires making my party go on long quests just to get the items they want?

...Where else are you going to get "interesting" stuff? O.o

More seriously, if you look through the spell descriptions for every spell that has material components, you see things like bat guano & a pinch of sulphur, powdered rhubarb leaf and an adder's stomach, a pinch of dried powdered peas mixed with powdered animal hoof, a small straight piece of iron, etc. Reading all of those material components should give you a big list of cool sounding stuff to say is used in making an item.

[Safety Sword]

That would be the part I was looking for help on in the first place.

Unless you're going to role play the creation of a magic item... which (unless it's a major part of the story) is one of the most boring things you could do at the table, it doesn't matter.

Most people want you to say "I get all the components, here's my gold. I craft a "Dish of infinite chicken breast in a white wine sauce", it takes 3 days" and get to the real story.

You know. The bit where everyone gets to be involved and you whip out your "Dish of infinite chicken breast in a white wine sauce" and add to the story.

[WarKitty]

Magic is Magic, no matter if you're a Mac or a PC. :smallconfused:

That sounds boring. My druid's power is different from the sorcerer's magic is different from the alchemist's potions. Each of our three characters is a caster, but each has a very different way of obtaining their spells and views it very differently.


...Where else are you going to get "interesting" stuff? O.o

More seriously, if you look through the spell descriptions for every spell that has material components, you see things like bat guano & a pinch of sulphur, powdered rhubarb leaf and an adder's stomach, a pinch of dried powdered peas mixed with powdered animal hoof, a small straight piece of iron, etc. Reading all of those material components should give you a big list of cool sounding stuff to say is used in making an item.

Good point about the material components. I'd be happy with going in and saying "I'm shopping for cedar wood, gold wire, and crushed beetle wings. Where's the nearest store for that?" And then preferably have an explanation as to how I need all that to make something the size of an amulet. Just don't want to say "I spend 4000 gold and it somehow turns into an amulet."

Edit @ SafetySword: I'm not going to roleplay all of it certainly. But our group does actually roleplay out shopping and enjoys it very much. And it takes about 10-15 minutes usually (you're required to know what you want to buy beforehand).

[Safety Sword]

Good point about the material components. I'd be happy with going in and saying "I'm shopping for cedar wood, gold wire, and crushed beetle wings. Where's the nearest store for that?" And then preferably have an explanation as to how I need all that to make something the size of an amulet. Just don't want to say "I spend 4000 gold and it somehow turns into an amulet."

DM: What do you do today?

You say: "I'm shopping for cedar wood, gold wire, and crushed beetle wings. Where's the nearest store for that?"

I say: "I go shopping for all of the components for my {whatverthethingI'mmakingis}, can I find them all here?"

Now we're at the same place.

I know you're trying to give it flavor. But unless there is a reason you need to know what the ingredients list is, it's not all that relevant. Now if the component has a significant cost, I might make it a plot hook, so that's worth mentioning.

Also, as a DM I already have a thousand things to keep track of. I probably don't actually know if a store has cedar wood, gold wire, and crushed beetle wings. Not every town has that level of detail. If I know you want to blow 4000 gold on a magic item, I'll say yes. So we can move on.

Edit @ Warkitty:
Well, if it's purely for the RP and your entire group is into that. By all means. Do it. My group would prefer to cut to the heart of the matter, or roleplay an important encounter rather than shopping. I respect that other groups do it differently, all of the Gods of Faerun know that I've seen enough examples to know.

[WarKitty]

DM: What do you do today?

You say: "I'm shopping for cedar wood, gold wire, and crushed beetle wings. Where's the nearest store for that?"

I say: "I go shopping for all of the components for my {whatverthethingI'mmakingis}, can I find them all here?"

Now we're at the same place.

I know you're trying to give it flavor. But unless there is a reason you need to know what the ingredients list is, it's not all that relevant. Now if the component has a significant cost, I might make it a plot hook, so that's worth mentioning. My character does in fact know what kind of shop sells what I need.

Also, as a DM I already have a thousand things to keep track of. I probably don't actually know if a store has cedar wood, gold wire, and crushed beetle wings. Not every town has that level of detail. If I know you want to blow 4000 gold on a magic item, I'll say yes. So we can move on.

YMMV I guess. Our group would feel cheated if you blew through shopping like that. BO-RING, where's the cool shopkeeper that we always get to talk to? The crazy wizard that was the library gatekeeper, or the shrewd old man that ran the weapon shop? Although we do usually make it easier on him by saying "I ask the innkeeper for directions to the nearest herbalist and head there," not "where do I find crushed beetle wings?"

[Coidzor]

That sounds boring. My druid's power is different from the sorcerer's magic is different from the alchemist's potions. Each of our three characters is a caster, but each has a very different way of obtaining their spells and views it very differently. If you're easily bored or want to come up with a system of rock-paper-scissors like what happens without magic-psionics transparency or any of the suggested provisions for modifying monsters in such a world. :smallconfused: This is the default assumption of D&D and of several worlds thereof. Like FR, the biggest one that actually replaced the original setting as the main world of D&D.

That would be the part I was looking for help on in the first place.

So why did you complain that you'd have to go out and kill the thing when the option to simply acquire the bodyparts in the traditional manner was made perfectly clear? :smallconfused:

Anyway, you have a few options, including retroactively have been collecting various things from your fallen foes, quantity occasionally having a quality of its own. Maybe using pieces from your fallen foes to channel bits of their soul energies back into the natural world to be used for creating new life rather than having it all go into the astral to be nommed on or to the outer planes. Not enough to prevent Rezzing of enemies that warrant it, but enough for you to come up with your own personal spin on what that sort of ritual would look like.


The gold goes towards bribing Reality to ignore the rules of physics for that particularly item. And of course, the more you bend the rules of physics, the bigger the bribe you must pay, to have the Fabric of Reality look the other way. Which is why liches locked away deep underground can convert gold to items without leaving their lairs for various components.

Heh. I like this one a lot. :smallbiggrin:


YMMV I guess. Our group would feel cheated if you blew through shopping like that. BO-RING, where's the cool shopkeeper that we always get to talk to? The crazy wizard that was the library gatekeeper, or the shrewd old man that ran the weapon shop? Although we do usually make it easier on him by saying "I ask the innkeeper for directions to the nearest herbalist and head there," not "where do I find crushed beetle wings?"

So why don't you guys already have something in place for dealing with this then? :smallconfused:

[Marnath]

Good point about the material components. I'd be happy with going in and saying "I'm shopping for cedar wood, gold wire, and crushed beetle wings. Where's the nearest store for that?" And then preferably have an explanation as to how I need all that to make something the size of an amulet. Just don't want to say "I spend 4000 gold and it somehow turns into an amulet."


"Cedar, favored of (nature god's name) which intercedes between Earth at it's roots and Sky at it's highest branches and holds their rivalrly in check. Gold, molded and shaped through both Fire and Water(they do cool it in water like other blacksmithed metals right?). Crushed wings of the beetle to represent Spirit, and to bind the four brothers. I ask now, give your blessing into this amulet so that it may safeguard the caretakers of your glorious and beautiful world. Amen."

And thus was born an amulet of natural armor. Is that good enough for you? :smallwink:

[Safety Sword]

...where's the cool shopkeeper that we always get to talk to? The crazy wizard that was the library gatekeeper, or the shrewd old man that ran the weapon shop?

That's not the same as "I want to make an amulet of natural armor +2 whilst we're here. OK?"

They're real role playing encounters. If you're going to the library, you have a reason. A reason I planted (probably). Same with a weapons shop. If you go to ask a question of the shopkeeper, I'll RP it. If you want to go buy a longsword and the party wants to do something else. You have a longsword.
If you go to the herbalist because you want to know if XYZ grows near ABC, we'll talk. If you want to go and get stuff for a +2 something something and nothing else, let's push on.

[Safety Sword]

"Cedar, favored of (nature god's name) which intercedes between Earth at it's roots and Sky at it's highest branches and holds their rivalrly in check. Gold, molded and shaped through both Fire and Water(they do cool it in water like other blacksmithed metals right?). Crushed wings of the beetle to represent Spirit, and to bind the four brothers. I ask now, give your blessing into this amulet so that it may safeguard the caretakers of your glorious and beautiful world. Amen."

And thus was born an amulet of natural armor. Is that good enough for you? :smallwink:

That'll be 4000g. You now have a +2 amulet of natural armor :smalltongue:

[WarKitty]

If you're easily bored or want to come up with a system of rock-paper-scissors like what happens without magic-psionics transparency or any of the suggested provisions for modifying monsters in such a world. :smallconfused: This is the default assumption of D&D and of several worlds thereof. Like FR, the biggest one that actually replaced the original setting as the main world of D&D.

They may in fact follow similar mechanics, we just play them out as being channeled and manifested in rather different ways. So the druid and sorc would have no idea what to do with a big complex lab, it all seems so big and crude and confusing. The alchemist and sorc would scoff at the idea of prayers and offerings. The druid and alchemist consider the sorc's innate channeling too unpredictable.


So why did you complain that you'd have to go out and kill the thing when the option to simply acquire the bodyparts in the traditional manner was made perfectly clear? :smallconfused:

Anyway, you have a few options, including retroactively have been collecting various things from your fallen foes, quantity occasionally having a quality of its own. Maybe using pieces from your fallen foes to channel bits of their soul energies back into the natural world to be used for creating new life rather than having it all go into the astral to be nommed on or to the outer planes. Not enough to prevent Rezzing of enemies that warrant it, but enough for you to come up with your own personal spin on what that sort of ritual would look like.

I don't recall complaining about that? I wasn't rejecting the idea outright, I'm just needing a little more help on how to turn it into something that works in the game world. The soul energies idea is nice.


Heh. I like this one a lot. :smallbiggrin:

So do I. Will keep it in mind.


So why don't you guys already have something in place for dealing with this then? :smallconfused:

Because we're about 3000 xp away from actually having our first crafting feat. It's just never come up before because most things are a lot more specific.

[Marnath]

That'll be 4000g. You now have a +2 amulet of natural armor :smalltongue:

See, that's how I prefer it. But I think I did a pretty good job making it all nice and flavorful for Warkitty.:smallsmile:

What do you guys think? I just wrote that spur of the moment.

[WarKitty]

"Cedar, favored of (nature god's name) which intercedes between Earth at it's roots and Sky at it's highest branches and holds their rivalrly in check. Gold, molded and shaped through both Fire and Water(they do cool it in water like other blacksmithed metals right?). Crushed wings of the beetle to represent Spirit, and to bind the four brothers. I ask now, give your blessing into this amulet so that it may safeguard the caretakers of your glorious and beautiful world. Amen."

And thus was born an amulet of natural armor. Is that good enough for you? :smallwink:

...I like.


That's not the same as "I want to make an amulet of natural armor +2 whilst we're here. OK?"

They're real role playing encounters. If you're going to the library, you have a reason. A reason I planted (probably). Same with a weapons shop. If you go to ask a question of the shopkeeper, I'll RP it. If you want to go buy a longsword and the party wants to do something else. You have a longsword.
If you go to the herbalist because you want to know if XYZ grows near ABC, we'll talk. If you want to go and get stuff for a +2 something something and nothing else, let's push on.

This just sounds like a playstyle difference. If we're buying that longsword, we probably still want to at least briefly RP it. And usually at least half the party is along on the trip.

[Marnath]

...I like.



I'm glad.:smallsmile:
It's been a long time since I did any creative writing.

[Coidzor]

They may in fact follow similar mechanics, we just play them out as being channeled and manifested in rather different ways. So the druid and sorc would have no idea what to do with a big complex lab, it all seems so big and crude and confusing. The alchemist and sorc would scoff at the idea of prayers and offerings. The druid and alchemist consider the sorc's innate channeling too unpredictable.

None of that stops there from being magical essence intrinsic to the world or from them all having different ways of manipulating it to achieve similar or identical results. Just because the artificer takes a spanner to the aether doesn't mean that the druid's drawing forth of the item whole cloth from Nature's source after making appropriate contributions to balance the transaction doesn't also have an effect on the local magical environment.

Nor does a sorcerer's spontaneous casting ability mean that they have to be oh-so different from wizards, they could very easily approach item crafting with the intuitive touch and feel for the aether that their spontaneous and innate casting has with spells, just knowing that x wood inlaid in y spot in z pattern is right without having to go into the theory of it, and instead just doing it.

And just because a cleric is drawing her magic from her deity rather than from the surrounding (super)natural world doesn't mean that they can't know appropriate ritual and theory for configuring items, regardless of whether their concern is for the holiness or practicality(or, y'know, holiness as a euphemism for efficacy as is so popular) of the object they're creating.

It's just a lot simpler for everyone involved to call it a lab and be done with it, so that's the base game term.


I don't recall complaining about that? I wasn't rejecting the idea outright, I'm just needing a little more help on how to turn it into something that works in the game world. The soul energies idea is nice.
The way you were rejecting them seemed phrased in a way as to be rejecting them outright, which confused me.


Because we're about 3000 xp away from actually having our first crafting feat. It's just never come up before because most things are a lot more specific.

I thought you said your DM and group have been doing it for a long time? :smallconfused: Is this really the first time anyone's wanted to do some item crafting?

[Grelna the Blue]

This just sounds like a playstyle difference. If we're buying that longsword, we probably still want to at least briefly RP it. And usually at least half the party is along on the trip.

I'll concede at the outset that your group may be very different than every one I've ever gamed with. However, in my experience, the item creation process (in any edition they've ever released) is best RPed one-on-one with the GM outside of normal game play, perhaps via email. Otherwise, you're sucking time from the other gamers they'll never get back by taking actions they not only have no part in but quite possibly little interest in. If you do it via email outside the game they can be cc'd if you like and are not inconvenienced.

[Skjaldbakka]

Go to Ye Olde Magick Shoppe. Walk past the useless trinkets sold to common folk for chump change and go into the special back room. There the shopkeep has all manner of the rare and valuable stuff, magically warded, stuff that is needed for making magic that lasts.

Things like a bottle of children's laughter, or the horn of a rhino, or a flower from the dark side of the moon, or the heart of a winter wolf. Most of them are difficult to acquire, or time consuming at the least, or jsut require much travel (or teleportation) to get to.

Let's face it, if you have X is needed for Y, and people will pay good money for Y, then you have "go bring me 20 winter wolf hearts" expeditions going on. But that is probably not what you are doing, it is what NPC adventurers are doing, and being paid good money to do by the shopkeeper, who also paid good money to get magical protectives for his special back room, and passes the costs on to you, the consumer.

[WarKitty]

None of that stops there from being magical essence intrinsic to the world or from them all having different ways of manipulating it to achieve similar or identical results. Just because the artificer takes a spanner to the aether doesn't mean that the druid's drawing forth of the item whole cloth from Nature's source after making appropriate contributions to balance the transaction doesn't also have an effect on the local magical environment.

Nor does a sorcerer's spontaneous casting ability mean that they have to be oh-so different from wizards, they could very easily approach item crafting with the intuitive touch and feel for the aether that their spontaneous and innate casting has with spells, just knowing that x wood inlaid in y spot in z pattern is right without having to go into the theory of it, and instead just doing it.

And just because a cleric is drawing her magic from her deity rather than from the surrounding (super)natural world doesn't mean that they can't know appropriate ritual and theory for configuring items, regardless of whether their concern is for the holiness or practicality(or, y'know, holiness as a euphemism for efficacy as is so popular) of the object they're creating.

It's just a lot simpler for everyone involved to call it a lab and be done with it, so that's the base game term.

Understandable. Just not useful when one is desiring a bit of fun fluff.


The way you were rejecting them seemed phrased in a way as to be rejecting them outright, which confused me.

Blame finals week.


I thought you said your DM and group have been doing it for a long time? :smallconfused: Is this really the first time anyone's wanted to do some item crafting?

We've been playing together for about a year now, actually. So not that long. And 3 months of that were with me DM'ing, which changes group dynamics a fair bit (very different styles). So yes, yes it is.

[Marnath]

It should also be noted that "Bring me X of these" quests happen all the time in real life. It's called paying your supplier. Just because it's Cliche doesn't mean it's not a good or logical way to do it.

[WarKitty]

I'll concede at the outset that your group may be very different than every one I've ever gamed with. However, in my experience, the item creation process (in any edition they've ever released) is best RPed one-on-one with the GM outside of normal game play, perhaps via email. Otherwise, you're sucking time from the other gamers they'll never get back by taking actions they not only have no part in but quite possibly little interest in. If you do it via email outside the game they can be cc'd if you like and are not inconvenienced.

Just so we're clear: I'm not planning on spending a lot of time on this. But try this out for size.

Player1: I ask the inkeeper for directions to the jeweler and the herbalist's shop. <<DM has been informed of the cost needed.>> "Hey, Player2, how about we go restock?" We head to the herbalist's first.

DM: You see an elderly woman behind the counter. She looks up at you from over a mortar and pestle.

Player2: "Greetings, madam. I need some dried bat guano and sulfur, and my friend over here needs..."

Player1: "Some crushed beetle's wings and a large piece of cedar wood."

DM: The woman moves to collect the items. "That will be 3500 gp for the lot."

Player2: "Here you go ma'am!" Hands over the money. We head to the jewelers.

DM: You walk into a need shop.

Player2: "We need a spool of gold wire. And could you throw in that small ring for my sorcerer friend?"

DM: "500gp for the wire, and 20 for the ring." He waits for the money before moving.

Player2: Hands over the money.

DM: He hands you your purchases.

Player1: We head back to the inn. When we get back, I go up to my room and light the hearthfire so I can begin working on the amulet.

Player2: I look for the sorcerer to give her the ring.

That whole exchange probably took 3 minutes of out of game time.

[Grelna the Blue]

Okay. That is pretty fast, I admit. I may be biased because the itemcrafter players in my game always want to go into far more detail regarding crafting methodology and materials gathering.

Several times, side adventures for materials have involved the whole party, and the crafting of one particular near epic level item was integral to the party's plan of action and required multiple significant quests involving planar travel.

But if you can keep it to the level you describe, more power to you.

[Tiki Snakes]

I think I like the idea, actually, of the rituals involved in magic item creation actually destroying the gold itself. Which is to say, perhaps the expensive ingredients in question is pure, unrefined Gold, or a small quantity of higher denomination metal.

The mana-channeling circuitry idea is also pretty fantastic in my opinion. Wire and so on fine enough for this could very well end up being stupidly expensive to source.

For a Druid, I'd focus on the potential angle of 'To create something, you must first destroy something', perhaps. Possibly you don't directly use your Wood and Astral-Beetle-Wings in the Amulet itself, rather you use them in the furnace that you use in the construction of the actual amulet. Something like the item-crafting system in the old Legend of Mana game, infact, could work very well as a rationalisation for all those obscure ingredients.

[Rockphed]

Possibly you don't directly use your Wood and Astral-Beetle-Wings in the Amulet itself, rather you use them in the furnace that you use in the construction of the actual amulet.

Is it bad that when I suggested a boatload of holly and mistletoe, I was expecting them to be put to the torch?

[Coidzor]

Is it bad that when I suggested a boatload of holly and mistletoe, I was expecting them to be put to the torch?

What else would you do with a boat full of holly and mistletoe? It's not like it's going to be seaworthy by that point.

[Tael]

I personally go with with the WoW route (wait, don't reject it yet! It's actually pretty decent, I swear!) and have people buying existing magic items and stealing the magic essence from that item so that they can put it into the new one. I also might have one special component to symbolize the thing that you're actually making. For an Amulet of Natural armor, you buy 4000 gp worth of other defensive magic items (armor, ring of deflection, another amulet, etc.) and an Onyx, or the skin of something with high Nat. Armor.

Other idea I just thought of: the reason Gold is the prime currency for everything everywhere is because Gold has actual intrinsic magic in it, which can be sacrificed to fuel the process of creating magic items.

[Safety Sword]

Just so we're clear: I'm not planning on spending a lot of time on this. But try this out for size.

Player1: I ask the inkeeper for directions to the jeweler and the herbalist's shop. <<DM has been informed of the cost needed.>> "Hey, Player2, how about we go restock?" We head to the herbalist's first.

DM: You see an elderly woman behind the counter. She looks up at you from over a mortar and pestle.

Player2: "Greetings, madam. I need some dried bat guano and sulfur, and my friend over here needs..."

Player1: "Some crushed beetle's wings and a large piece of cedar wood."

DM: The woman moves to collect the items. "That will be 3500 gp for the lot."

Player2: "Here you go ma'am!" Hands over the money. We head to the jewelers.

DM: You walk into a need shop.

Player2: "We need a spool of gold wire. And could you throw in that small ring for my sorcerer friend?"

DM: "500gp for the wire, and 20 for the ring." He waits for the money before moving.

Player2: Hands over the money.

DM: He hands you your purchases.

Player1: We head back to the inn. When we get back, I go up to my room and light the hearthfire so I can begin working on the amulet.

Player2: I look for the sorcerer to give her the ring.

That whole exchange probably took 3 minutes of out of game time.

Screw adventuring. I'm opening a herb shop. 3500g for bat s#!t, sulphur dead bugs and wood.

Yeah, you just broke the economy by trying to put a price on your making item components. And how expensive is a fireball to cast now? Definitely opening a herb shop.

[WarKitty]

Screw adventuring. I'm opening a herb shop. 3500g for bat s#!t, sulphur dead bugs and wood.

Yeah, you just broke the economy by trying to put a price on your making item components. And how expensive is a fireball to cast now? Definitely opening a herb shop.

It was an example. If you don't like the idea don't use it. Or suggest some way to get the roleplaying component done that works within the economy. Getting ideas was the whole point of this thread, after all. I just think that "I go shopping for 4000gp worth of completely unspecified components and spend some time staring at them until they magically turn into an amulet" is really boring if you're in a game that involves more than just running around killing things. It is supposed to be a roleplaying game, after all.

[Safety Sword]

It was an example. If you don't like the idea don't use it. Or suggest some way to get the roleplaying component done that works within the economy. Getting ideas was the whole point of this thread, after all.

I know you have the best of intentions with trying to fluff magic item creation. You just need a way that doesn't break the other parts of the game.

It's not really something that would add anything significant to most games. Which is probably why I don't understand all the effort trying to fix something as simple as "you need to put resources in to work magic. Resources = gold".

It's another D&D economy control.

[WarKitty]

I know you have the best of intentions with trying to fluff magic item creation. You just need a way that doesn't break the other parts of the game.

It's not really something that would add anything significant to most games. Which is probably why I don't understand all the effort trying to fix something as simple as "you need to put resources in to work magic. Resources = gold".

It's another D&D economy control.

Because I want to know what resources I'm using and what I'm doing with them. The whole original question of this thread was that the resources that the actual item is composed of and the cost in creating it are nowhere near the same, so where is that extra cost coming from? Here's what a normal shopping encounter looks like the way things are now:

Barbarian: "I go to the blacksmith and order a new set of axes. Then go get drunk."

Alchemist: "I go to the alchemist supply for a new set of powders. Then I set up my lab in my room and start mixing."

Rogue: "I go to the wizard's guild for some new tanglefoot bags, then head to the tavern to gather information."

Ranger: "I go to the fletcher and order some new arrows. Then I head out to the courtyard to teach my companion a new trick."

Druid: "I go, uh, somewhere and spend 4000gp. Then I head up to my room to do crafting stuff."

Note how only one person out of the party has to break out of character in order to get stuff done?

[true_shinken]

Also, consider the expensive material compenents many spells have - the item creation process might chew up similar consumables (gems, precious metal dust, incense, various laboratory supplies, herbs, oil etc.)
This. It's so simple and clean I still wonder how this question keeps getting asked. Also, I'm pretty sure it says exactly this in the DMG.

[WarKitty]

This. It's so simple and clean I still wonder how this question keeps getting asked. Also, I'm pretty sure it says exactly this in the DMG.

(1) I wanted what I'm doing with the stuff I buy, not just what I'm buying. I'm assuming I'm not spending this gold just because my god happens to like gold, particularly on a druid.

(2) Most spells don't have expensive material components. Those that do add their material component onto the already existent cost of crafting. Therefore, material component cost is quite distinct from crafting cost.

[true_shinken]

Most spells don't have expensive material components. Those that do add their material component onto the already existent cost of crafting. Therefore, material component cost is quite distinct from crafting cost.
But the fluff is the same. That's Thurbane's point. You just need magical stuff. For your amulet of natural armor, maybe the undamaged scales of some really tough critter - say, a dragon.

[Thurbane]

But the fluff is the same. That's Thurbane's point. You just need magical stuff. For your amulet of natural armor, maybe the undamaged scales of some really tough critter - say, a dragon.
Exactly, thank you. I'm glad someone got my point.

I'm quite aware that spell component cost is seperate from normal crafting cost...I was merely suggesting that something similar might happen in the item creation process, if you want to explain the cost away other than the price of the materials used in the items construction.

Honestly, this is why it's left abstract in the rules...for all RAW cares, you could be snorting crushed diamonds to power the creation! :smalltongue: You are totally in the clear to explain the cost in any way you want...

[WarKitty]

Exactly, thank you. I'm glad someone got my point.

I'm quite aware that spell component cost is seperate from normal crafting cost...I was merely suggesting that something similar might happen in the item creation process, if you want to explain the cost away other than the price of the materials used in the items construction.

Honestly, this is why it's left abstract in the rules...for all RAW cares, you could be snorting crushed diamonds to power the creation! :smalltongue: You are totally in the clear to explain the cost in any way you want...

Why are people not getting this? The whole point of the thread was that I want a good way to explain the cost. Am I not being clear somewhere? This isn't a thread about RAW, it's a thread about RP ideas.

Although, this brings up another point. If I'm getting my power directly from nature or from a deity, what am I doing with crushed gemstones and grashopper's legs and the like? I mean, it makes sense for a wizard that they would be extracting the magic essence, but not so much for a divine caster. I never really got a good in-universe idea of why raise dead requires a bunch of diamonds - I mean, obviously it's in there to make death more expensive, but why would a god need powdered diamonds to power the spell?

[Thurbane]

Why are people not getting this? The whole point of the thread was that I want a good way to explain the cost. Am I not being clear somewhere? This isn't a thread about RAW, it's a thread about RP ideas.
I get that you are not talking about RAW, but looking for fluff. Maybe what's confusing is that, unles I'm missing something, you've dismissed basically all of suggestions made as not being appropraite. Are there any suggestions so far that you think might fit?

[true_shinken]

I never really got a good in-universe idea of why raise dead requires a bunch of diamonds
In my game, the veil between life and death has a structure similar to diamonds. You need the magical resonance of diamonds to rip that veil and bring the soul back.

[Grelna the Blue]

Although, this brings up another point. If I'm getting my power directly from nature or from a deity, what am I doing with crushed gemstones and grashopper's legs and the like? I mean, it makes sense for a wizard that they would be extracting the magic essence, but not so much for a divine caster. I never really got a good in-universe idea of why raise dead requires a bunch of diamonds - I mean, obviously it's in there to make death more expensive, but why would a god need powdered diamonds to power the spell?

An in-universe reason? Well, it could be that diamonds represent a great deal of concentrated life energy, as the coal they once were was concentrated from the bodies of innumerable small creatures and was further concentrated in its diamond form. However, realistically, it's probably just that the gods are charging a stiff price for access to revivification so the world isn't overrun with once-dead people. Someone has to care an awful lot to spend what is far more than most people see in a lifetime.

[term1nally s1ck]

You are spending it on drinks while you make the thing. When you wake from your drunken stupor: the thing is done. This explains how cursed items happen occasionally.

I LOVE this.

[WarKitty]

I get that you are not talking about RAW, but looking for fluff. Maybe what's confusing is that, unles I'm missing something, you've dismissed basically all of suggestions made as not being appropraite. Are there any suggestions so far that you think might fit?

I've actually said some might fit, it's just that really only one has gone far enough (the reclaiming nature one). That one I said had promise but would need to be adapted away from the whole wild-grove-buildings-are-evil druid archetype. Here's what I'd need for a complete idea:

(1) The general nature of what I would be buying
(2) What I would be doing with said items
(3) How said items and ritual work to infuse the item in question

Here's the world fluff that my character is operating under:

Magic is a primal force of nature. It flows through everything and is connected to all life and all of the world. (The world is actually held together by a set of magic orbs, so this isn't that far out.) While this force can be manipulated in various ways, a druid functions by letting herself be subsumed into this force until it flows back out of her. This obviates the need for flashy magic or for spending hours mixing potions or strange chemicals. Such things can of course be useful for those who are not as advanced, but they are not the ultimate way.

[true_shinken]

This obviates the need for flashy magic or for spending hours mixing potions or strange chemicals. Such things can of course be useful for those who are not as advanced, but they are not the ultimate way.

Seriously, that's not fluff for a crafter character. At all.
Your fluff is basically "I don't craft"!

[WarKitty]

Seriously, that's not fluff for a crafter character. At all.
Your fluff is basically "I don't craft"!

So if I don't spend hours bent over a burner or waving my arms wildly I make magic items? Because if that's the case, item crafting should really be restricted to wizards.

[Marnath]

Because I want to know what resources I'm using and what I'm doing with them. The whole original question of this thread was that the resources that the actual item is composed of and the cost in creating it are nowhere near the same, so where is that extra cost coming from? Here's what a normal shopping encounter looks like the way things are now:

Barbarian: "I go to the blacksmith and order a new set of axes. Then go get drunk."

Alchemist: "I go to the alchemist supply for a new set of powders. Then I set up my lab in my room and start mixing."

Rogue: "I go to the wizard's guild for some new tanglefoot bags, then head to the tavern to gather information."

Ranger: "I go to the fletcher and order some new arrows. Then I head out to the courtyard to teach my companion a new trick."

Druid: "I go, uh, somewhere and spend 4000gp. Then I head up to my room to do crafting stuff."

Note how only one person out of the party has to break out of character in order to get stuff done?

No, more like Druid: " I go the the herb shop and buy all kinds of rare herbs, strips of exotic tree bark, odd and wonderful mushrooms cultivated only in a single valley on the other side of the continent and harvested only at exactly 3am on tuesdays, and then I go down the street to the animal parts store and buy a deer hoof, feathers from an eagle's belly, and owlbear snot. To top it off, I visit the mage guild and get some powdered granite, since no one else seems to sell it here."

You just have to be a little more creative. :smallwink:

[WarKitty]

I'm getting a lot of good answers for the first part - what kinds of ingredients could be used. And they are good ideas. But I could use a bit more help on the other two parts.

[Grelna the Blue]

I'm getting a lot of good answers for the first part - what kinds of ingredients could be used. And they are good ideas. But I could use a bit more help on the other two parts.

The sound of a child's laughter
The glow of the Pole Star at midnight
The colors red and blue from a natural rainbow.

These things are common. Cheap, even, from a purely materialistic point of view. But they are transitory and to capture them in a way you can then use, well, that is difficult and expensive and is certainly not your way. Wizards do that, stuffing these precious things in jars and vials. Not you. You enter the Dreamtime and gather and slowly weave these essences into a harmonious whole to the joyful beat of the world's heart. Of course, the dreamsmoke isn't exactly free...

[term1nally s1ck]

You're focusing your energies on getting a feel for the exact structure and magical distribution of each ingredient, then blasting it with a wave of magic in *just* the right way to sear the material structure of the object away, and to simultaneously infuse the essence into the base object. You then have to use your magic to enhance your sense of the object, to connect the separate essences together in the right way.

This is quite complex, but at the same time the notion of 'feeling' your way through the materials and techniques is much much more suited to a Druid.

As for how the items work, I'd say you have to pick the ingredients carefully.

Try having 1-3 base materials that have the value you're looking for. Skins or hides of tough creatures, etc, in this case. Then add a conductor of some sort to draw that essence away. This would be a particularly expensive ingredient, I'd say thin gold wire, or gemstone dust that you magically forge into wires. Then add a fliter-style object, to pick out the exact magical force you need the object to provide. Plant material, other metals, etc. Then add one last thing to transmit that force into the wearer. This will in general be infused into the strap the amulet is attached to. Herbs, rare liquids to soak the leather in, or maybe it's a very rare thread/hide that makes up the strap itself. Then, you need a binding agent to lock all those components in place, and allow them to work together. Make it something very strong and structured. Diamond or rare Wood, or maybe the material of the amulet itself.


That enough stuff for you?

[WarKitty]

You're focusing your energies on getting a feel for the exact structure and magical distribution of each ingredient, then blasting it with a wave of magic in *just* the right way to sear the material structure of the object away, and to simultaneously infuse the essence into the base object. You then have to use your magic to enhance your sense of the object, to connect the separate essences together in the right way.

This is quite complex, but at the same time the notion of 'feeling' your way through the materials and techniques is much much more suited to a Druid.

As for how the items work, I'd say you have to pick the ingredients carefully.

Try having 1-3 base materials that have the value you're looking for. Skins or hides of tough creatures, etc, in this case. Then add a conductor of some sort to draw that essence away. This would be a particularly expensive ingredient, I'd say thin gold wire, or gemstone dust that you magically forge into wires. Then add a fliter-style object, to pick out the exact magical force you need the object to provide. Plant material, other metals, etc. Then add one last thing to transmit that force into the wearer. This will in general be infused into the strap the amulet is attached to. Herbs, rare liquids to soak the leather in, or maybe it's a very rare thread/hide that makes up the strap itself. Then, you need a binding agent to lock all those components in place, and allow them to work together. Make it something very strong and structured. Diamond or rare Wood, or maybe the material of the amulet itself.


That enough stuff for you?

Very nice, thank you. I like the idea of having a few expensive ingredients, rather than a lot of cheap stuff.

[Safety Sword]

Very nice, thank you. I like the idea of having a few expensive ingredients, rather than a lot of cheap stuff.

But... but...

Oh, forget it.

[WarKitty]

But... but...

Oh, forget it.

Ok, the bunch of cheap stuff would be fun too, but it's easier to, spend 3900 gp on a couple of expensive things and the remaining 100gp on whatever cool stuff. I just don't like the idea of using gold and gems directly.

That said, stuff to smoke might also be a neat idea. :smallbiggrin:

[John Campbell]

My last crafting PC made, among other things, a greataxe with assorted cold-based powers with the haft made from the femur of a white dragon, amulets of natural armor from the scales and sinew of the same dragon, a cloak of displacement from the hide of a displacer beast, belts of giant strength from leather from the hides of actual giants, and a war wizard cloak of winter wolf fur (for no particularly thematic reason; I just wanted a spiff white wolf cloak). It got to the point that the DM was getting annoyed at me because I kept parting out his majestic beasts.

I did some work with exotic woods, too - had a folding boat made out of darkwood, and a set of throwing spears of various materials. I did more work in mithril, adamantine, cold iron (those not always in weapon/armor roles... my headband of intellect was mithril), and other precious metals and gems - but I was playing a dwarven wizard, not a druid. (The DM got even more annoyed at me when I started scavenging adamantine from encounters. But, hey, if he didn't want us to have all the dwarvencraft adamantine full plate we could eat, he shouldn't have put adamantine doors in front of a dwarf who could cast fabricate and hit the necessary Craft DC without bothering to actually roll.)

[Rockphed]

Well, in light of Warkitty's revelation that he wanted not just stuff to buy, but what to do with it, I will compose a list of stuff and what to do with it. Also, how much I expect it to cost.

A wagonload of holly or mistletoe. Depending on how much this costs, it could be replaced with a bucket full, or a handful. In season, said grouping probably costs 10 - 100 gp, while out of season, it probably costs about half again as much. It is put in a mound over the object to be created as the final step, and burned, which pulls the impurities out of the item with the smoke, and leaves behind the same sort of magic that druids use in their holy holly symbols.

Rare or scented woods. These are either burned as incense or carved into the form desired of the item. If you have woodshape, then it is a good spell to use to form the wood into the desired form. Fine workmanship in the carving is not necessary, but can make up for deficiencies or shortages in other stuff. Things probably come down to 100 - 1000 gp for rare woods, depending on desired amount, and about half that for scented wood. Proper crafting probably also can require another thousand gp.

Parts of animals and monsters. These parts should epitomize the essence of a creature, so the hair of a unicorn for its beauty, the scales of a dragon for armor, or the spine of an ox for its stubbornness. They are interwoven, burned, eaten, or otherwise used as you see fit. They also run the gamut from dirt cheap to super expensive, depending on what animal they come from.

Elemental objects. While all things are formed of the elements, some hold a much stronger connection than others. So the first drop of a rainstorm, the last ember of a forest fire, sand turned to glass by a lightning strike, or a pebble from the top of a mountain(or the heart of a mountain as the case may be), hold much more elemental power than normal. Also in this category are things like prisms containing single moonbeams and stardust. They are used to empower items that are partially elemental in nature, or just to bestow cool effects, like having something light up on its own. Because of their rarity and difficulty to acquire, they tend to cost thousands of gp.