3.5 Half-dragon for less or no LA?

[Marnath]

Everyone knows +3 LA is too much to pay for this template. Personally I think it's pretty cool, and I wanted to ask what I could feasibly bargain it down to. I was thinking take it down to +2 right off the bat just because. So, let's break down what the benefits are. The stat boosts are big, obviously. But it's not hard to work with that, just adjust how many points that character can have during point buy. The breath weapon is mostly a non presence because the DC is based on RHD, not HD. The natural weapons aren't half bad, but do they really mean anything unless you put real effort into making a natural attack build? The immunity to sleep, paralysis and an energy is pretty cool, no doubt about that. Low light vision and darkvision are things that a lot of LA 0 races have, admittedly not usually both together. Flight is something most PC's don't get since you have to be large. Natural armor is pretty sweet.

Now, at +2 LA you still get a major advantage for a melee build in the tasty +8 str boost and the con helps offset how far behind your hp is. But what about casters? The +2 to int and cha only equals a +1 bonus to the relevant stuff, and that's not so bad. Most arcanes aren't going to be doing any actual fighting, so the str and natural weapons aren't a big deal, especially with poor BAB.

Would it really be terrible to allow it at +1 LA for arcanes? With buy off that or without, either way.

Also, would it be overpowered to give waterbreathing to the ones descended from the colors that have that trait?

[Godskook]

Before we go on, are you familiar with the Dragonborn Template from RotD?

[Marnath]

Before we go on, are you familiar with the Dragonborn Template from RotD?

Yeah, I am. I don't really like it as well though. I'd use it gladly, but I'd still like to see if I could salvage this one first, ya know? :smallsmile:

[Godskook]

Yeah, I am. I don't really like it as well though. I'd use it gladly, but I'd still like to see if I could salvage this one first, ya know? :smallsmile:

You *might* get it down to LA +2, but I doubt you could go further. Instead of trying to reduce the cost, what about improving the features? That breath weapon starts powerful(equivalent of a level 15 dragonborn), but eventually becomes worthless. If you modeled the breath weapon after the dragonborn version, the template as a whole might be worth a respectable LA +2.

[Marnath]

You *might* get it down to LA +2, but I doubt you could go further. Instead of trying to reduce the cost, what about improving the features? That breath weapon starts powerful(equivalent of a level 15 dragonborn), but eventually becomes worthless. If you modeled the breath weapon after the dragonborn version, the template as a whole might be worth a respectable LA +2.

Do you mean changing how the DC is calculated, or making it usable every 1d4 rounds? or maybe both? Because I've considered that approach before too.

[HunterOfJello]

Handy Half-Dragon SRD Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)


First off, it might be a good idea to compare the Half-Dragon template (+3) to the Draconic Template (+1) and find a middle ground if you want a (+2) template.

Draconic gets:

+2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha
Dragonblood Subtype
+1 Natural Armor
Claws that scale with size
Darkvision
Low-Light Vision
+4 vs. magical sleep & paralysis
+2 Intimidate and Spot

~~~~~~




Soooooooooooooo, a +2 Dragon type template that exist in between the Draconic and Half-Dragon might look something like:

Dragon Type
+6 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha
+3 Natural Armor
Claws and Bite that scale with size
Low-Light Vision
Darkvision
Immune to sleep & paralysis
Breath Weapon that scales as Dragonborn (based on ECL)
Wings that scale as Dragonborn (based on ECL)
Increase Hit Die up to d8

~

If there was rounding to be done, I rounded up. I think the Draconic Template is a balanced +1 LA template, if any template can be considered balanced. Giving them the Dragonborn breath weapon and wing progression at ECL seems appropriate. I think scaling abilities work better than ones obtained at 1st level.

[Godskook]

Do you mean changing how the DC is calculated, or making it usable every 1d4 rounds? or maybe both? Because I've considered that approach before too.

1.Change DC calculation

2.Change recharge

3.Change damage calculations

The last one's a mixed-blessing, since at low-levels, you'd deal less damage, but it'd continue to grow past level 15, making it work better over larger level distances. But that also makes the lower LA palatable, since the 6d8 breath weapon is *INSANE* prior to level 4

[Coidzor]

If there was rounding to be done, I rounded up. I think the Draconic Template is a balanced +1 LA template, if any template can be considered balanced. Giving them the Dragonborn breath weapon and wing progression at ECL seems appropriate. I think scaling abilities work better than ones obtained at 1st level.

That's because generally they are better. Consider Half-Fey, Half-Celestial, and Half-Fiend and compare them with Half-Dragon. Half-Fey is better despite the con hit and gives flight even to small and medium characters rather than only giving it to large ones and it has a lower LA so it can be bought off faster. Half-Celestial and Half-Fiend have larger LA but are still competitive due to the fact that they actually scale with the creature they're applied to and actually have benefits which apply to all recipients of the template and are worth more of their LA.

[Runestar]

The half-ogre race in races of destiny gives +6str/+2con, -2dex/int/cha, +4NA and large size for +2LA.

The half dragon seems more like LA+2.5 to me. You do get good physical stat mods, +4NA, and some decent immunities.

I think it would be easier to also grant wings, and a scaling breath weapon and round up the LA to +3.

[Marnath]

The half-ogre race in races of destiny gives +6str/+2con, -2dex/int/cha, +4NA and large size for +2LA.

The half dragon seems more like LA+2.5 to me. You do get good physical stat mods, +4NA, and some decent immunities.

I think it would be easier to also grant wings, and a scaling breath weapon and round up the LA to +3.


When things like Feral are LA +1 though, I seriously look at Half-dragon and ask myself how it can really be worth a +2. Is half-dragon really better than Feral? By that much? I doubt it. :smallconfused:

Maybe I'm missing something.

[JaronK]

For comparison, consider a Draconic Half Minotaur character vs a Half Dragon character. The first is clearly superior, for LA+2... but then again, Half Minotaur is regularly called overpowered.

I'd say Half Dragon could be LA+2, and have a once every 1d4+1 rounds breath weapon, and that should be fine.

JaronK

[Marnath]

For comparison, consider a Draconic Half Minotaur character vs a Half Dragon character. The first is clearly superior, for LA+2... but then again, Half Minotaur is regularly called overpowered.

I'd say Half Dragon could be LA+2, and have a once every 1d4+1 rounds breath weapon, and that should be fine.

JaronK

Cool. Thats what I was thinking.

[ericgrau]

I ran the numbers vs. core classes before and half-dragon came out balanced at LA 2 at low levels and LA 4 at high levels. If you are using non-core builds or OP templates it may be a good idea to lower LAs across the board. Another way to handle low level gimpage, besides scaling LAs, would be to let the PC take the template little by little similar to savage species and finish the template progression at higher levels. Class level 6 (ECL 9; or LA 2 & ECL 8 in a high power game) is a good spot to finish it.

[Marnath]

I ran the numbers vs. core classes before and half-dragon came out balanced at LA 2 at low levels and LA 4 at high levels.

Lol wut? O.o
The benefits behind most LA's become less of a factor at high levels, not more. I don't know what program you used but it must be broken.

[ericgrau]

Breath weapons and some SLAs may become useless, but stat bonuses are useful forever as they stack with everything. Meanwhile the HP and secondary attack lost becomes less painful. Hence the major relief once you hit character level 6 (not including LA). And I'd like to think that the math in my computer program is pretty good after so many updates.

[Halae]

I personally use the pathfinder Half-Dragon for my games, even in 3.5. The differences are +6 to constitution, you gain wings, your breath weapon works off of Racial HD (so 1d8 damage per HD, meaning your average half-dragon human technically won't have one) and it's only a +2 LA. Makes it completely worth it.

[Marnath]

I personally use the pathfinder Half-Dragon for my games, even in 3.5. The differences are +6 to constitution, you gain wings, your breath weapon works off of Racial HD (so 1d8 damage per HD, meaning your average half-dragon human technically won't have one) and it's only a +2 LA. Makes it completely worth it.

O.O

that's awesome! Give up breath weapon, which I was prepared to do to make it +2 anyway, and gives you 4 more con and gives you flight back? Heck yeah!

I think that's the way to go with this. Thanks. :smallsmile:

[Halae]

I think that's the way to go with this. Thanks. :smallsmile:

Always willing to help out another warforged! :smallbiggrin:

[Runestar]

Stuff like lolth-touched, half-minotaur and feral are clearly broken for the bonuses they give, so of course everything else is going to appear weak when compared with them.

I would use goliath as the gold standard of a reasonable LA+1 race.

That said, I do find half celestial's LA too front-loaded for the benefits it grants (since you don't gain many of the SLAs until much later). I would recommend the savage progression for this.