Is there any way to get two familiers?

[akma]

After thinking a bit about making a joke class with a d3 hit dice, low BAB, all bad saves, no spells and then say he is overpowered becuse he got two familiers, I wondered if there is actully a way for wizards/sorcerers to get two familiers. Is there?

[Coidzor]

Dragon Magazine has the Feat "Extra Familiar." Gets fun when combined with the Improved Familiar feat.

Gets really fun if those both can combine with the Urban Companion ACF from Cityscape.

[Ernir]

An extra familiar? Clearly, this was not meant for mortals. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#familiar)

[Ichneumon]

In Races of Eberron thre is a racial subclass of psion for Kalashtar that gives the psion 2 psicrystals instead of 1. I'm sure that with accurate fluff reasons this could be adapted to work f non-kalashtars with familiars too.

[Eldan]

Technically, you could get two familiar-granting classes, i.e. be a sorcerer/wizard (perhaps going into Ultimate Magus). That's not erally the same, though.

[Ravens_cry]

Why?
Not the two familiars part, the joke class part. How is this funny?
No ones going to play it.
No one is going to WANT to play it.
The Lightning Warrior joke got old pretty fast, this even quicker.
With all due respect, this 'joke' doesn't need to be told ONCE.

[Sir Swindle89]

You could feat into incarnum and get a soulspark familiar.

[Foryn Gilnith]

How is this funny?

I presume this is why the OP stopped thinking about the joke and started thinking about how to obtain 2 familiars.

[Mastikator]

Technically, you could get two familiar-granting classes, i.e. be a sorcerer/wizard (perhaps going into Ultimate Magus). That's not erally the same, though.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcererFamiliar

The SRD says you can't have more than one familiar even if you do have the class ability twice.

[panaikhan]

This may be totally off the wall, but if you can have a Rat as a familiar, would there be a way of re-fluffing the familiar progression to get more rats? Build up to a swarm, as it were...

[Bayar]

There's a prestige class somewhere that nets you about 4 or 5 familiars.

[Eldan]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcererFamiliar

The SRD says you can't have more than one familiar even if you do have the class ability twice.

Huh. So it does.

[Saintheart]

Take the Leadership feat. If your cohort's a low level mage or sorcerer, he can get a familiar, which is going to be pretty well under your control anyway. There you go, 2 familiars.

[Necroticplague]

You can't have two familiars attached to you from gain familiar, but I don't remember any RAW preventing you from having a psicrystal and a familiar. Pso psion1||wizard1 nets you both at ecl 1.

[Coidzor]

Oh, and the Extra Familiar Feat is from Dragon #280.


There's a prestige class somewhere that nets you about 4 or 5 familiars.

Any idea where you ran into that one?

[WeLoveFireballs]

There is a complete arcana feat obtain familiar. I didn't look to deep in it since they would probably end up being liabilities.

[WarKitty]

There is a complete arcana feat obtain familiar. I didn't look to deep in it since they would probably end up being liabilities.

I don't think that works if you already have one. It's meant for bards and other arcane casters that don't get one automatically.

[Coidzor]

There is a complete arcana feat obtain familiar. I didn't look to deep in it since they would probably end up being liabilities.

It might allow a sorcerer or wizard to gain a second familiar, but it can only be taken once, so it's mostly good for classes like Duskblades or gish builds that want to get in on the fun of an Improved Familiar that's not tied to sorc/wizard levels.

[Fouredged Sword]

Play a Kalashtar psion / wizard / that class that stacks magic and psionics. Now take shape soul meld soulspark familiar. Now take wild cohort.

Now you have two psi crystals, a familier, and an animal cohort running around with you.

[Ernir]

I don't think that works if you already have one. It's meant for bards and other arcane casters that don't get one automatically.

Yeah, it doesn't work. "Benefit: You can obtain a familiar in the same manner as a sorcerer or wizard", and Sorcerers/Wizards can't get more than one.

[Sir Swindle89]

Play a Kalashtar psion / wizard / that class that stacks magic and psionics. Now take shape soul meld soulspark familiar. Now take wild cohort.

Now you have two psi crystals, a familier, a soulspark, and an animal cohort running around with you.

You forgot somthing :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

Play a Kalashtar psion / wizard / that class that stacks magic and psionics. Now take shape soul meld soulspark familiar. Now take wild cohort.

Now you have two psi crystals, a familier, and an animal cohort running around with you.

Probably thinking of Cerebremancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/cerebremancer.htm). If you were a sorcerer, I believe you could take the ACF/substitution level that trades a familiar for a Ranger's Animal Companion and then possibly use Obtain Familiar to get a familiar again for 2 psi crystals, a familiar, an animal companion, an animal cohort, and the soulspark.

[KillianHawkeye]

I love getting too familiar.... :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

I love getting too familiar.... :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

You really need Dragon Familiar to be Pervirtuoso though. :smallwink:

[akma]

No ones going to play it.
No one is going to WANT to play it.

Playability isn`t an issue with joke classes.



The Lightning Warrior joke got old pretty fast, this even quicker.
With all due respect, this 'joke' doesn't need to be told ONCE.


I presume this is why the OP stopped thinking about the joke and started thinking about how to obtain 2 familiars.

Also, is there a way to get a humanoid familier?

[Ravens_cry]

Playability isn`t an issue with joke classes.

There is no such thing a as joke class, only an intentionally sucky class that no one wants to play. OK, maybe some super optimiser may want to use it as a way to test there skills at breaking the game, but otherwise, it really doesn't exist. What do I mean by that? Well, if no one plays it, PC or NPC, then it doesn't exist in the game world. It's just a big fat hypothetical, a test of how sucky you, the designer, can make soemthing. And frankly, that's an easy feat. It's no challenge to make something suck, especially if your the one designing it.
.

[KillianHawkeye]

There is no such thing a as joke class, only an intentionally sucky class that no one wants to play. OK, maybe some super optimiser may want to use it as a way to test there skills at breaking the game, but otherwise, it really doesn't exist. What do I mean by that? Well, if no one plays it, PC or NPC, then it doesn't exist in the game world. It's just a big fat hypothetical, a test of how sucky you, the designer, can make soemthing. And frankly, that's an easy feat. It's no challenge to make something suck, especially if your the one designing it.
.

Disagree. Lightning Warrior was definitely a joke. Also, the existence of a class is not dependant on whether or not a character in your campaign is using it.

[Ravens_cry]

Disagree. Lightning Warrior was definitely a joke. Also, the existence of a class is not dependant on whether or not a character in your campaign is using it.
Metaphorically dear. Let's someone shaped a piece of hardware cloth or chicken wire into a calender and called it the worlds worst coffee mug. Well, it may exist, but its no good to anyone and it is certainly not a mug.

[Escheton]

I remember the extra familiar feat from some 3rd party as well.

With improved familiar: shocker lizard

Walk around with a few linked tesla-coils...

[Sir Swindle89]

Metaphorically dear. Let's someone shaped a piece of hardware cloth or chicken wire into a calender and called it the worlds worst coffee mug. Well, it may exist, but its no good to anyone and it is certainly not a mug.

Um why does this argument matter? he made a class, he though it was funny(an in-joke perhaps) thats all that matters. **** ****** ******* *** **** *****

Additionally your "no joke class" statment is also false, there is a whole book of them. God i love Portable Hole Full of Beer.

[Hanuman]

Source on the extra familiar feat please!
I have 9 constructs and only 1 is a familiar, I'd like to have more of them be summonable instead of breakable!

[Telonius]

As long as it's a joke class, BoEF probably has a bunch of stuff that would qualify as "too familiar." Maybe the old "Rouge" class did as well? Can't seem to locate that thread... :smallbiggrin:

[Benejeseret]

A wizard/sorc cannot have 2 familiars, but if they give up one of them (srd variants) and then retake Obtain Familiar they should get another one.

For instance:

Abjurer
Resistance to Energy (Su)

Once per day, an abjurer using this variant can create a mystical shield that grants herself or any one creature that she touches limited protection against a chosen energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). The affected creature gains resistance equal to 5 plus one-half the abjurer's class level against the chosen energy type. Activating this ability is a standard action. Once activated, the protection lasts for 1 hour. This protection overlaps with (and does not stack with) the effects of spells such as resist energy.

An abjurer using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar.

ConjurerRapid Summoning (Ex)

Any time a conjurer using this variant casts a summon monster spell, its casting time is 1 standard action rather than 1 full round. (Creatures so summoned can only take a standard action in the round they are summoned.) Conjurers using this variant gain the normal benefits from enhancing a summon monster spell with the Quicken Spell feat.

A conjurer using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar.

DivinerEnhanced Awareness (Ex)

A diviner using this variant adds Sense Motive to her list of class skills. In addition, she gains minor benefits when casting certain divination spells.

She needs only to study an item for 10 minutes (rather than 1 hour) when casting identify.

An arcane eye cast by the diviner travels at 20 feet per round when studying its surroundings (rather than 10 feet per round).

Add +1 to the saving throw DCs of the character's divination spells. (This bonus stacks with the bonus from the Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats.)

A diviner using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar.

Enchanter
Cohort

Upon reaching 6th level, an enchanter using this variant gains the service of a loyal cohort of the player's choice (with the game master's approval). The cohort is a 4th-level character when first gained; after that point, follow the normal rules described in the Leadership feat to determine the cohort's level, but treat the enchanter's level as being two lower than normal.

The enchanter doesn't gain any followers from this ability. If the enchanter selects the Leadership feat, he attracts followers as normal, the penalty to the enchanter's effective level is eliminated, and the enchanter automatically qualifies for the "special power" modifier to his Leadership score.

An enchanter using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar.

EvokerEnergy Affinity (Ex)

Evokers using this variant must choose an energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). This choice is made upon character creation and cannot be altered thereafter. Any time the character casts an evocation spell with the chosen energy type, she casts the spell as if her caster level were one higher (affecting range, duration, damage, caster level checks, and any other factor influenced by caster level).

An evoker using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar.

IllusionistChains of Disbelief (Ex)

Even if a viewer disbelieves an illusion created by an illusionist using this variant and communicates the details of the illusion to other creatures, those other creatures do not receive the normal +4 bonus on their saying throws to disbelieve the illusion. Furthermore, even when presented with incontrovertible proof that the illusion isn't real, creatures must still succeed on a Will saving throw to see objects or creatures that the illusion obscures, although they get a +10 bonus on the saving throw.

An illusionist using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar.

NecromancerSkeletal Minion

A 1st-level necromancer using this variant can begin play with an undead minion (a human warrior skeleton). Obtaining this minion takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp.

This creature is a loyal servant that follows the necromancer's commands and accompanies her on adventures if desired. If the skeletal minion is destroyed, the necromancer suffers no ill effects and may replace it by performing a ceremony identical to the one that allowed her to obtain her first servant.

At 1st level, the skeleton is completely typical, but it gains power as the necromancer gains levels. The skeleton has a number of Hit Dice equal to the necromancer's class level. Add one-half the necromancer's class level to the skeleton's natural armor bonus. Add one-third of the necromancer's class level to the skeleton's Strength and Dexterity scores.

A necromancer using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar.

TransmuterEnhance Attribute (Ex)

Once per day, plus one additional time per five class levels, a transmuter using this variant can add a +2 enhancement bonus to any one of his ability scores. This bonus lasts for a number of minutes equal to the transmuter's class level. Using this ability is a swift action.

A transmuter using this variant permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar.

EDIT: Lets not forget the animal companion variant

Sorcerer/Wizard

A sorcerer or wizard might desire a more durable companion to accompany him on excursions into the wilderness.
Gain

Animal companion (as druid; treat sorcerer or wizard as a druid of half his class level).
Lose

Familiar.


Now, there may be some disagreement on semantics regarding the line "permanently gives up the ability to obtain a familiar" as this came prior to the Obtain Familiar Feat. Does this line bar you from even taking the Obtain Familiar feat, or is it only referring to your normal class ability to get a familiar. Up to you to convince your DM. The animal companion variant is not restricted by this wording.

Second, is there a limit to the number of times you take a Feat?

For instance, an Enchanter burn the familiar for the Cohort variant, take Obtain Familiar, burn it again for another Cohort, and repeat every 3 levels. 6 Cohorts gained that way starting with 2 at lvl 6

Same deal with the Necromancer variant Skeletal Minion only it can start at lvl1 so 8 skeletal minions with 20HD each that way and they should not count toward undead HD controlled based on variant (plus str/dex and NA boosts to each).

More if Obtain Familiar could count as a wizard bonus feat.

But that is assuming a very lax DM...actually, likely requires a comatose one


EDIT: Animal Companion variant and multiple Feat Obtain Familiar could grant 8 animal companions at 1/2 druid level advancement or you could get 4 that dual progress as familiar/animals by Arcane Heirophant shenanigans that would each be 3/4th druid level advancement and 100% familiar advancement.

[KillianHawkeye]

Metaphorically dear. Let's someone shaped a piece of hardware cloth or chicken wire into a calender and called it the worlds worst coffee mug. Well, it may exist, but its no good to anyone and it is certainly not a mug.

I don't actually know what you're trying to say here, but I suspect that you're wasting your time. :smallconfused:

[Coidzor]

Also, is there a way to get a humanoid familier?

Gold dragons can assume a humanoid form and are available through Dragon Familiar from Draconomicon. Muckdwellers are monstrous humanoids that can also be player characters, IIRC, that are available through Improved Familiar though I can't recall the source offhand.

Also, apparently a deity can designate a non-standard creature as a familiar, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#familiar) so it could have a humanoid familiar, this was posted earlier in the thread.


Source on the extra familiar feat please!
I have 9 constructs and only 1 is a familiar, I'd like to have more of them be summonable instead of breakable!

I believe the source is Dragon # 280. But I can't really verify atm.

[Vizzerdrix]

Don't familiars grant a feat? Alertness or something? They specifically say you get the feat. Use Extra Familiar to get a bunch of improved familiars (I think DMG says they still grant the feat) then Dark Chaos Shuffle them away maybe?


Hmm... A Mephling wizard character, with a Mephit familiar? "Hi, I'd like to introduce you to my familiar/wife." :smalleek:

[Coidzor]

Hmm... A Mephling wizard character, with a Mephit familiar? "Hi, I'd like to introduce you to my familiar/wife." :smalleek:

Very familiar indeed. :smallamused:

[gorfnab]

+Sorc/Wiz ACF (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-sorcerer) that trades familiar for an animal companion
+Natural Bond
+Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)
+Silverwood Arcanist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031209a)
+Obtain Familiar
+Improved Familiar
+Extra Familiar - Dragon #280
=lots of pets

Maybe add in Beastmaster or Arcane Hierophant

[HunterOfJello]

It's a shame there aren't 3.5e feats to get an Extra Familiar and Extra Companion so that you could have two Familiar Companions with Arcane Hierophant.

[Psyren]

In Races of Eberron thre is a racial subclass of psion for Kalashtar that gives the psion 2 psicrystals instead of 1. I'm sure that with accurate fluff reasons this could be adapted to work f non-kalashtars with familiars too.

Actually, this isn't correct. What they get is a second personality for their Psicrystal, not a second Psicrystal altogether.

If you really want a second psicrystal though, Planar Vanguard (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031219a) gets two at the capstone - the first one transforms into a private demiplane, but you can still gain the benefits while you're visiting it.

(The PrC is 3.0 but easily converted - all the prereqs are 3.5.)

[akma]

Stuff about that that classes that never get used do not exist.


According to that logic, if I`ll make a box and no one will use it, it would not exist.

[Nanoblack]

According to that logic, if I`ll make a box and no one will use it, it would not exist.

You're misunderstanding the statement. Think about it this way: IF in a campaign setting, there isn't a single character with the wizard class, it doesn't exist. The reason it doesn't exist is because there just aren't any, not because no one is using it. The box metaphor is inaccurate for the hypothetical situation presented.

[KillianHawkeye]

You're misunderstanding the statement. Think about it this way: IF in a campaign setting, there isn't a single character with the wizard class, it doesn't exist. The reason it doesn't exist is because there just aren't any, not because no one is using it. The box metaphor is inaccurate for the hypothetical situation presented.

You are also misunderstanding our statements. The existence of the wizard class is not dependant on the existnece of wizards in the campaign setting. The class is an OOC game mechanic which exists in real life.

[Gan The Grey]

Metaphorically dear. Let's someone shaped a piece of hardware cloth or chicken wire into a calender and called it the worlds worst coffee mug. Well, it may exist, but its no good to anyone and it is certainly not a mug.

As above, why are you here spewing hate?

Edit: Er....WAY above at this point.

[Hanuman]

Source of Extra Familiar feat?

[Psyren]

Another way to get two psicrystals is the epic feat Psicrystal Power. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#psicrystalPower) This gives your Psicrystal your manifester level, allowing it to take a psicrystal of its own, which it can then give a manifester level with Psicrystal Power, which...

[gorfnab]

Source of Extra Familiar feat?
Dragon Magazine #280

[akma]

You're misunderstanding the statement.

And I think you are misunderstanding the statement.

Also, how many familiers is it possible for someone to have?

[Coidzor]

And I think you are misunderstanding the statement.

Also, how many familiers is it possible for someone to have?

A wizard/sorcerer can start off with one and then get one per feat (6 from leveling). So 7 is the normal, unoptimized baseline to exceed, with Unearthed Arcana flaws, 9 familiars. If someone with access to the full context of the feat could comment on whether it can be used as one of the wizard's bonus feats (4) that would bump it up to 11 familiars, and with flaws 13 familiars. That's where I'd say the regular stuff stops and that after this is where the cheese begins, but, YMMV as flaws are a contentious topic.

If whatever race gains the most racial bonus feats & dark chaos shuffling, then that's 1(scribe scroll) + R familiars added into the mix. If you dip a level in fighter and dark chaos shuffle and allow the bit where it states that the armor and shield proficiencies are bonus feats and trade tower shield proficiency for exotic shield proficiency the feat that's an addition of 5 feats (though minus 1 for the wizard bonus feats due to no longer getting Wizard 20).

So that's 19+R that I have right now (1 class feature, 6 regular feats, 2 flaws, 5 armor and shield proficiencies, 1 scribe scroll, 3 wizard bonus feats, 1 fighter bonus feat, R racial bonus feats)

What race gets the most bonus feats? Elves get 4, but I believe there's one that gets more, but the WOTC forum discussion seems to have been eaten. So that's a current max of 23 at level 20, or exactly as many familiars as you can have skill ranks invested into a skill normally at level 20.

However, if you're not going to wizard 20, that means one can drop down to only 15 levels of wizard for the next wizard bonus feat.

PHB ala the SRD:
Fighter: 6 feats (light, medium, heavy, shield, exotic or tower shield, bonus feat)

Rogue: 1 feat (light armor)

Monk: 2 feats (IUS, bonus feat)

Barbarian: 3 (light, medium, shield)

Ranger: 3 (light, shield, Track)

Paladin: 4 feats (light, medium, heavy, shield)

Sorcerer: 0 feats

Bard: 2 feats (light and shield)

Cleric:6 (light, medium, heavy, shield, 2 domains/devotions), 7 if War domain (weapon focus and martial weapon proficiency, I think metal domain and war domain could bump it up to 8 as long as the focuses and proficiencies were in different weapons.

Druid: 3 feats (light, medium, shield)

EPH via SRD:
Psychic Warrior: 5 feats (light, medium, heavy, shield, bonus feat)

Psion: 1 feat (bonus feat).

Wilder: 2 feats (light armor, shield)

Soulknife: 4 feats (light armor, shield, weapon focus, wild talent)


Unearthed Arcana:
Feat Rogue: 2 feats (light armor, bonus feat)

Totem Barbarians: 4 feats(light, medium, shield, Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures ), Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#dragonTotemClassFeatur es), and Lion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#lionTotemClassFeatures )totem bonus feats). Other totem barbarians: no change at 1st level.

Battle Sorcerer: 1 feat (light armor)

Cloistered Cleric: 4 feats minimum (light armor, knowledge devotion, 2 other domains), can get up to 6 with double feat domains like War and Metal.

Unnamed Druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid): 1 feat (Track) so 2 less than standard.

Thug Fighter: 1 (light armor), so 5 less than standard.

Sneak Attack Fighter: 5 feats (light, medium, heavy, shield, tower/exotic shield), so 1 less than standard.

Other variants: No change


NPC classes:
Adept: 0
Aristocrat: 4 (light, medium, heavy, shield), 5 if their tower shield proficiency counts
Expert: 1 (light armor)
Warrior: 4 (light, medium, heavy, shield), 5 if tower shield proficiency counts.

So, on the SRD, the standard Fighter, Deityless Cleric with War and Metal Domains, Psychic Warrior, and Paladin/Totem Barbarian/Soulknife/Aristocrat/Warrior win out (with the Aristocrat and Warrior tying with the Psychic Warrior if tower shields fall under the tower shield proficiency feat as a bonus feat bit)

So for those 4 levels (since 1 is already taken up by Fighter) we get 23 + 8 (cleric) + 5 (psychic warrior) + 4 Totem Barbarian + 4 Paladin of Freedom. 8+5=13, 4+4=8, 23+13= 36, 36+8 = 44. 44 Familiars. Using Fiendish Codex I, Unearthed Arcana, Dragon #280, the Player's Handbook, the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and whatever Dragon Magazine gave us the Metal Domain. And since one is still a 15th level wizard (and has 8th level spells), if one trades in one of those feats for, say, Dragon Familiar, that's a small swarm of 43 Babby Gold Dragons, which would add Draconomicon to our source list.

If one still wanted 9th level spells, on the other hand, that's still 36 familiars.

And this is without delving into the question of what it would cost to make a custom item that bestows the feat Extra Familiar.

(With elder evil worship and DCS, an infinite loop can be reached, but I'm not going to be talking about that further as it's meaningless to discuss infinity as it is infinite.)

[Autolykos]

You're misunderstanding the statement. Think about it this way: IF in a campaign setting, there isn't a single character with the wizard class, it doesn't exist. The reason it doesn't exist is because there just aren't any, not because no one is using it. The box metaphor is inaccurate for the hypothetical situation presented.Not true. Anyone who knows something about Object-Oriented Programming can tell you that you can have a class without a single instance of it. Indeed, abstract classes can't even have instances.

[Benejeseret]

Well Coidzor, I thought mine was a stretch, but then you just took it to a whole new demi-plane. Gratz

Thoughts on 'using' so many familiars:

1. Make them all Item Familiars
i. Invest Life Energy - with 44 (Coidzor) familiars that's 540% XP gain!!
ii. Special Ability - Spell Use to break the action economy horribly, make the
item familiars out of Pearls of Power

2. Channel spell / touch spells. Could we somehow get a duskblade ability to channel a multiple times and the familiar Deliver Touch to do a 44 familiar touch attacks for 44x spell damage a turn??

[Hanuman]

Dragon Magazine #280
+Reputation

[Nanoblack]

For all of those who responded to me:

What do I mean by that? Well, if no one plays it, PC or NPC, then it doesn't exist in the game world. It's just a big fat hypothetical, a test of how sucky you, the designer, can make soemthing.

Bolded text for emphasis. We're not speaking OOC, we're referencing the actual game world...

[Coidzor]

Well Coidzor, I thought mine was a stretch, but then you just took it to a whole new demi-plane. Gratz Well, you know, taking 30 minutes an hour and a half (err...:smalleek:) to putter around with the stuff that's been floating around in my head since I first discovered super mounts and wanted to see if I could put a personal spin on such a build and come out with a competent gish at the same time...

And to be fair, the Dark Chaos Shuffle (embrace the dark chaos + shun the dark chaos) is one of the more broken spell combos, as it can/does set one's feats to the level at which the chaos shuffle occurs rather than the level when the feat was obtained. I don't really see the issue since 3.5 is so built up on feat chains anyway, but I haven't fully absorbed the dark lore and so don't have as full an understanding of what horrors could be unleashed.

The real headache is that I've been trying to figure out what if any interaction is possible between the various things that combine familiar with a mount or animal companion and all of the extra familiars. It might just be a one-off, one-for-one trade. Of course, some way to make one's familiar a mount or AC rather than an AC or mount into a familiar would be even better due to the fun times that can happen as a result of improved familiar.


Thoughts on 'using' so many familiars:

1. Make them all Item Familiars
i. Invest Life Energy - with 44 (Coidzor) familiars that's 540% XP gain!!
ii. Special Ability - Spell Use to break the action economy horribly, make the item familiars out of Pearls of Power

You could be a LE Muckdweller wizard and form your own tribe out of your Muckdweller familiars who are tougher and smarter than other Muckdwellers (level 15 wizard has Int 13 familiars, standard Muckdweller Int is 10). :smallbiggrin: Or at least within one step of LE on both axes (I think that's how it works, so a N, LN, NE, or LE caster could have the LE muckdwellers as familiars.)

But if you're grabbing the Item Familiar Feat, that'd bump it down to 43 item familiars. So it'd only be 530% of normal experience gain. The price increases a fair bit as well, 43*2K gp (86,000 gp minimum, though they double as magic items as well) instead of 4300 gp (100 gp per familiar summoned) invested in having them, and gets more expensive for every power the item familiars get. Still probably an issue but not a deal-breaker, I think. Of more concern is how I'm not sure if it works due to being uncertain as to whether Item Familiars are actually Familiars.



2. Channel spell / touch spells. Could we somehow get a duskblade ability to channel a multiple times and the familiar Deliver Touch to do a 44 familiar touch attacks for 44x spell damage a turn??

Hmm. This reminds me of LoP's The Nasty Gentleman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861906/LoPs_Dirty_Tricks_4:_The_Nasty_Gentlemen). I don't think Channel Spell is going to be all that useful, since full-attack channeling requires duskblade 13 and regular chanelling by a duskblade takes level 2 or 3 as well. So it'd lock one fairly well into the duskblade chassis and would cut down on the number of familiars and character utility as well. However, it would beef up the extant familiars significantly in the HP department.

I believe the build introduction has several spells it mentions that would be of use here as well. Familiar handbook probably does as well.

[JeenLeen]

I was reading through Heroes of Horror yesterday and its Summon Familiar description does not have a phrase "like a sorcerer or wizard" or some other thing to make it seem to have the 1 familiar/caster limit.

Although I suppose if you are a wizard, your gaining of a new familiar might make your old one stop being a familiar? Not sure how those clauses work for multiclassing.

[Coidzor]

I was reading through Heroes of Horror yesterday and its Summon Familiar description does not have a phrase "like a sorcerer or wizard" or some other thing to make it seem to have the 1 familiar/caster limit.

Although I suppose if you are a wizard, your gaining of a new familiar might make your old one stop being a familiar? Not sure how those clauses work for multiclassing.

Hmm? You mean for a Dread Necromancer or...?