[3.5] Psionics and save DCs

[Ernir]

As is, this is the rule on the saving throw DC vs. psionic powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#savingThrowDifficultyCla ss):

Saving Throw Difficulty Class
A saving throw against your power has a DC 10 + the level of the power + your key ability modifier (Intelligence for a psion, Wisdom for a psychic warrior, or Charisma for a wilder). A power's level can vary depending on your class. Always use the power level applicable to your class.
... which is pretty much what we'd expect it to be.

Now, psionics don't have a heighten spell mechanic, instead using the Augment mechanic. Most powers work just fine this way, but... then there are those like Psionic Suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/suggestionpsionic.htm) that for some reason... just don't have it. They don't even have a higher level version with a higher save DC, since the base power is clearly supposed to scale into the Mass Suggestion version of the arcane spell.

Am I imagining a problem? Would it create a problem to base the save DCs on how many PP you spend on the power (excluding Metapsionics) rather than an Augment that may or may not exist? Would make a lot more sense to me, at least. :smallconfused:

[AnswersQuestion]

That is a problem, yes. Not much to do about it and a significant number of powers has their own augment clause to up DCs(sometimes for free, as part of other augmentations). Pathfinder paid more attention to that. The converted psionic suggestion does have the DC clause for example.

[Psyren]

Just add an Augment to all of the powers that should scale that way. You get the added benefit of giving Wilders a helping hand, too. You can even add it to an existing augment for those powers that have it, along the lines of Psionic Dominate. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dominatepsionic.htm)

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Certainly wouldn’t hurt to add a Heighten Power feat anyway. Heightening a spell has a few uses other than upping the DC, anyway. Getting through globes of invulnerability, for instance.

Since the cost of heightening should be 2 power points per level heightened (max. heighten to to the highest level power you can manifest), overdoing the DC with a heighten plus a power’s natural augmentation shouldn’t be too much a problem.

[Keld Denar]

Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) doesn't have a scaling DC either.

[truemane]

Certainly wouldn’t hurt to add a Heighten Power feat anyway. Heightening a spell has a few uses other than upping the DC, anyway. Getting through globes of invulnerability, for instance.

Since the cost of heightening should be 2 power points per level heightened (max. heighten to to the highest level power you can manifest), overdoing the DC with a heighten plus a power’s natural augmentation shouldn’t be too much a problem.

This is the most elegant solution. Ensure that you add the 'Must expend Psionic Focus to use this Feat' like all the other Metapsionic Feats and you're done. The system is self-limiting, not being able to spend more than one PP per level on each power.

[AnswersQuestion]

This is the most elegant solution. Ensure that you add the 'Must expend Psionic Focus to use this Feat' like all the other Metapsionic Feats and you're done. The system is self-limiting, not being able to spend more than one PP per level on each power.

Heighten Power
Benefits: By expending psionic focus, you increase the effective level of the power you manifested by 1, plus 1 for every 2 power points spent. Treat this as an augmentation.

It'd also make the endowed mind feat obsolete (expend focus = +1 dc)

[FMArthur]

Just make sure to word it so that it excludes the use of Metapower.

[truemane]

Heighten Power
Benefits: By expending psionic focus, you increase the effective level of the power you manifested by 1, plus 1 for every 2 power points spent. Treat this as an augmentation.

It'd also make the endowed mind feat obsolete (expend focus = +1 dc)

Psionic Endowment and Greater Psionic Endowment. Yeah. Good call. That would make Heightening a power by one or two levels useless.

Then again, it is another one (or two feats), and you couldn't use them both at the same time unless you also had Psicrystal Containment (two more feats). That's a significant enough investment of resources that I'd consider allowing it if someone wanted to blow four or five feats on it.

[Zaq]

Just make sure to word it so that it excludes the use of Metapower.

Why? Spending 2 feats (and your psionic focus) just to increase the save DC of a single power by 1 really doesn't seem like an issue to me, especially when Psionic Endowment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicEndowment) exists. I mean, I guess it lets you increase the save DC one more above what you could while heightening it anyway, but I really don't think that this is broken. Maybe just add a clause preventing it from being used for early entry tricks, if that's your concern.

[Ernir]

Certainly wouldn’t hurt to add a Heighten Power feat anyway. Heightening a spell has a few uses other than upping the DC, anyway. Getting through globes of invulnerability, for instance.

Since the cost of heightening should be 2 power points per level heightened (max. heighten to to the highest level power you can manifest), overdoing the DC with a heighten plus a power’s natural augmentation shouldn’t be too much a problem.
Hmm. I don't have the Psionic PrC options hardwired into my head, but this could have the side effect of creating new early entry methods. I'm not sure how undesirable that is.

Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) doesn't have a scaling DC either.
Yep. There are a few others that "suffer" like this. Some don't even have any Augmentation options, period. =/

That is a problem, yes. Not much to do about it and a significant number of powers has their own augment clause to up DCs(sometimes for free, as part of other augmentations). Pathfinder paid more attention to that. The converted psionic suggestion does have the DC clause for example.
Not much to do about it? Well, we have houserules. :smalltongue:
(And I have all kinds of pet projects involving 3.5 fixes on my menu anyway.)

Is the Pathfinder psionics beta version available online somewhere, so I could have a look?

Just add an Augment to all of the powers that should scale that way. You get the added benefit of giving Wilders a helping hand, too. You can even add it to an existing augment for those powers that have it, along the lines of Psionic Dominate. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dominatepsionic.htm)
Just hacking on Augmentation clauses for every power involved would solve it, sure.

I just find it interesting that this isn't a system-wide feature anyway. I'd find it more elegant. Something along the lines of...

Adding this to the Power Point cost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#powerPoints) entry: (New content italicized)
Power Point Limit
The power point cost mentioned in each power's description is the minimum number of power points needed to manifest the power. Some powers allow you to spend more than their base minimum cost to achieve an improved effect, or augment the power. You can also choose to spend additional power points on a power in order to increase its save DC. The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to your manifester level.

Replacing the Save DC (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#savingThrowDifficultyCla ss) entry with this:

Saving Throw Difficulty Class
A saving throw against your power has a DC 10 + one-half the number of power points spent on the power (round up) + your key ability modifier (Intelligence for a psion, Wisdom for a psychic warrior, or Charisma for a wilder).
Count all power points spent on augmenting a power in order to determine its power point cost for this purpose, but do not count the additional power point cost incurred by adding a metapsionic feat to a power.

And editing the Wild Surge class feature description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/wilder.htm) a bit:

Wild Surge (Su)
A wilder can let her passion and emotion rise to the surface in a wild surge when she manifests a power. During a wild surge, a wilder gains phenomenal psionic strength, but may harm herself by the reckless use of her power (see Psychic Enervation, below).

A wilder can choose to invoke a wild surge whenever she manifests a power. When she does so, she gains +1 to her manifester level with that manifestation of the power. The manifester level boost gives her the ability to augment her powers to a higher degree than she otherwise could; however, she pays no extra power point for this wild surge. Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge., and gains a number of "free" virtual power points equal to the effective manifester level increase, which must be immediately spent on augmenting the power. If the power has no augmentation option, the virtual power points spent still serve to increase the power's saving throw DC. In all cases, only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve.

Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the power a wilder manifests with her wild surge.

This improvement in manifester level does not grant her any other benefits (psicrystal abilities do not advance, she does not gain higher-level class abilities, and so on).

She cannot use the Overchannel psionic feat and invoke her wild surge at the same time.

At 3rd level, a wilder can choose to boost her manifester level by two instead of one. At 7th level, she can boost her manifester level by up to three; at 11th level, by up to four; at 15th level, by up to five; and at 19th level, by up to six.

In all cases, the wild surge effectively pays the extra power point cost that is normally required to augment the power; only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve.

[AnswersQuestion]

Is the Pathfinder psionics beta version available online somewhere, so I could have a look?

http://www.dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewforum/f=2.html

The book hits the stores next week.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Hmm. I don't have the Psionic PrC options hardwired into my head, but this could have the side effect of creating new early entry methods. I'm not sure how undesirable that is.
No more so than Heighten Spell does with Spellcasting PrCs. The maximum level of heightening is key to that.

By the way, that is why I don’t like the tacked on augmentation simply for save DC. There’s no upper limit, especially when one considers the myriad ways to breach the spending limit on power points. It opens the door for out-of-control save DCs.

Most powers that allow the DC to scale only have the DC scale if you are augmenting for other effects at the same time. Example: even if you are an 17th level telepath, your psionic charm only has augmentation options to raise it to a total cost of 9 points, for a +4 difference in DC. You cannot freely augment the power to cost 17 points with a +8 DC. Powers like these already have a cap that would be broken with free augmentation for DC.

[dextercorvia]

I think the problem with a Heighten Power feat, is that Overchannel (or Wild Surge, or the Torc of Power Preservation) would let you manifest powers of a higher level than normal, opening up all sorts of early entry abuse.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I think the problem with a Heighten Power feat, is that Overchannel (or Wild Surge, or the Torc of Power Preservation) would let you manifest powers of a higher level than normal, opening up all sorts of early entry abuse.
Hence my recommendation of writing it with a cap on its ability to Heighten.