Running a comb through the spell list

[Sir Swindle89]

There are certain spells that simply shouldn't be in the school they are currently in.

The ones i can think of are:
1) Mage Armor is printed as Conjuration should be Abjuration because it's practially the poster child of abjuration
2) Orb of X printed and Conjuration should be Evocation because it's a better blasting spell than every spell in the blasting school

The reason i want a list of these is so that when i do "specilist casters only" in my games I want them to be balanced, or failing that thematic.

[Emperor Ing]

specilist casters...balanced

Use only Illusion
Dominate the Universe

[Hanuman]

There are certain spells that simply shouldn't be in the school they are currently in.

The ones i can think of are:
1) Mage Armor is printed as Conjuration should be Abjuration because it's practially the poster child of abjuration
2) Orb of X printed and Conjuration should be Evocation because it's a better blasting spell than every spell in the blasting school

The reason i want a list of these is so that when i do "specilist casters only" in my games I want them to be balanced, or failing that thematic.
Agreed, I'd say mage armor and orb shouldn't trigger cloudy conjuration, heh.

Specialist casters is a good way to disallow domain wizards.

[Sir Swindle89]

Use only Illusion
Dominate the Universe

Use only necromancy
Whightacalypse

Use only transmutation
Give you and you familiar infinite stats

Whats your point? At least it's not "Be a wizard, all of the above +scry and die and chain gating"

[Hanuman]

Use only necromancy
Whightacalypse

Use only transmutation
Give you and you familiar infinite stats

Whats your point? At least it's not "Be a wizard, all of the above +scry and die and chain gating"
Wizards are powerful, a player who picks a wizards wants a powerful character, either accept RAW or change the rules, restricting players is kinda silly.

[Sir Swindle89]

Wizards are powerful, a player who picks a wizards wants a powerful character, either accept RAW or change the rules, restricting players is kinda silly.

And how is a restriction not a rule change? I am talking about changing rules. Namly which schools of magic certain spells are in. The fact that you can still be really powerful even inside a particular school isn't really relevent. I added that "failing balance" clause because i know damn well that conjuration and divination aren't balanced against each other.

Edit: I'm kinda outraged at that statement. Half of the Dm's job is to restrict players. An actual game of D&D is not a TO board the DM has the right to say "no". In fact knowing when to say no is one of the first things you have to learn as a DM!

[Coidzor]

Of course not. Nothing's balanced against Divination. Except maybe Universal.

[Reynard]

Of course not. Nothing's balanced against Divination. Except maybe Universal.

Those two should probably be lumped into one school, really.

[Anxe]

Why shouldn't orbs be conjuration? The spells conjure/create an orb which is then thrown at the enemy.

[Coplantor]

Why shouldn't orbs be conjuration? The spells conjure/create an orb which is then thrown at the enemy.

Quoted for truth. Evocation spells creates the energy that is thrown (therefore, most of them are subject to spell resistance), conjuration summons non magical versions of that element for you to throw at your enemies. The sweet, sweet flavour of Orbs of X is that they override spell resistance.

[Sir Swindle89]

Quoted for truth. Evocation spells creates the energy that is thrown (therefore, most of them are subject to spell resistance), conjuration summons non magical versions of that element for you to throw at your enemies. The sweet, sweet flavour of Orbs of X is that they override spell resistance.

Orbs are a blasting spell, none can deny that. Evocation is supposed to be the blasting school. It makes sense from a mechanics perspective for them to be Evocation. The list of differences between an Orb of Fire and a Ball of Fire is pretty short.

Also Conjuration is really OP even without having access to the signature part of Evocation.

[Grelna the Blue]

Quoted for truth. Evocation spells creates the energy that is thrown (therefore, most of them are subject to spell resistance), conjuration summons non magical versions of that element for you to throw at your enemies. The sweet, sweet flavour of Orbs of X is that they override spell resistance.

[cough cough]Orb of Force? Non magical force to which there is no save or spell resistance? Seems kinda...iffy.

[Coplantor]

Well, I cant remember that one, but still, is it any less iffy if you make it an evocation spell?

[Grelna the Blue]

Well, I cant remember that one, but still, is it any less iffy if you make it an evocation spell?

4th level, p.151 of the Spell Compendium. And no, of course not. But if it were Evocation, it would grant spell resistance, just as Magic Missile does. The fact that Conjuration can now blast isn't what most people who dislike the Conjuration blaster spells object to. It's the loss of SR, making Conjuration now THE blaster school.

Edit: And after all, if you summoned "real" fire or "real" acid, it would burn you before you threw it. Wait, you can't throw "real" fire, and if you could the distance wouldn't be contingent on level. So it must be "real" magic fire, which makes it okay...except that then there should be SR against it.

[Coplantor]

4th level, p.151 of the Spell Compendium. And no, of course not. But if it were Evocation, it would grant spell resistance, just as Magic Missile does. The fact that Conjuration can now blast isn't what most people who dislike the Conjuration blaster spells object to. It's the loss of SR, making Conjuration now THE blaster school.

Oh, spell compendium, I dont have that one :smalltongue:

Then again, most conjuration fans choose it not for the blast power but because of everything else. Also, weren't the orbs single target ranged attacks? Most evocation blasting spells attack more than one target, so it still has some advantages to conjuration.

[Foryn Gilnith]

But if it were Evocation, it would grant spell resistance, just as Magic Missile does.
Or it would ignore SR, like a Force Dragon's (Su) breath does, without falling back on that ridiculous Conjuration-specific explanation of NONMAGICAL FORCE.

[GoatBoy]

Why shouldn't orbs be conjuration? The spells conjure/create an orb which is then thrown at the enemy.

I think that in order to make a playable game, you should group/classify things according to what balances the game, rather than what makes sense from the perspective of reality.

Case in point: In 3.0, burning hands and shocking grasp were Transmutation. Seriously, look it up.

Creating other spells by that rationale, you could turn Transmutation into a "blast-y" school. And then, what would be the point of anything?

Spell schools should be arranged according to what role they play in combat, not what "makes sense." I know that overemphasizing balance leads to class homogeneity akin to 4e, but I also think that a sizable portion of 3.5's balance issues come from the seemingly haphazard arrangement of the core spell lists.

[Godskook]

One of the first and fore-most problems with the 'schools' of magic is that they're inconsistently defined.

Evocation, for instance, is defined primarily for *what* it does(blasting), not how it does it. Sure, it gets 'saddled' with a 'how', but honestly, nobody can understand how Evocation doesn't have the Orb spells by Evocation's definition.

Conjuration, on the other hand, doesn't focus on *what*, but rather *how*. Namely, making "something from nothing". With as vague as that definition is, we can get just about anything into the school, from blasting spells('create' some fire/acid), to BFC('create' a wall), to debuffs('create' some glitterdust) to almost anything else.

If you want to balance the spell lists, you're probably going to need to start with dividing the schools better.

[Coplantor]

I think AD&D 2nd edition covered the school descriptions better than 3.5

[Mercenary Pen]

If we're redefining spell schools, then maybe the solution to some of these issues would be to have certain spells overlap between schools, so that the orb spells (for example) are now or the 'borderline' between evocation and conjuration... Of course, this should go hand in hand with creating more consistent and thorough definitions of the spell schools for best results- but either/or will at least get you some of the way.

[Zeful]

Why shouldn't orbs be conjuration? The spells conjure/create an orb which is then thrown at the enemy.

First it doesn't follow the rules for mundane (lit. nonmagical) versions of the substances (fire at 1d6 damage, acid at 1d6 exposure/10d6 submersion). Second, it further invalidates Evocation as a school. Third the spells are all still acids (seriously, all the spells save Orb of Force are "As orb of acid except [insert damage type here]).

[Figurant #9]

Making balanced/thematic casting seems to be something that'd be better achieved by letting players propose a concept and then working with them to build a Beguiler/Dread Necromancer/Warmage-modeled knock-off.

It'd involve less book-scouring (there's no need to decide where Orb of Cold belongs if a player's building a monster-summoner), it'd allow more personalization (spells/abilities specifically designed to fit a concept) and it'd go further in terms of balance (the transmutation and conjuration schools each have enough diversity for a Wizard to play an entirely different game than a Bard, even if they're reduced to the spells that match the explicit goals for the schools).

Also, there are dozens of these homebrewed already.

[Godskook]

but I also think that a sizable portion of 3.5's balance issues come from the seemingly haphazard arrangement of the core spell lists.

Bwuh?

Most of 3.5's balance issues has nothing to do with school selection. Look at Jaronk's tier list. Notice how in core, nobody except full-casters get tier 2 or 1, and tier 3 is a bard-only tier(in core). The top 5 classes in core were all strong spellcasters, and only 1 of them has any caring about what 'school' his spell was.

The balance issues in 3.5 have a lot more to do with things like "Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard", or similar things, not cause a Conjurer is better than an Evoker.

[GoatBoy]

Bwuh?

Most of 3.5's balance issues has nothing to do with school selection. Look at Jaronk's tier list. Notice how in core, nobody except full-casters get tier 2 or 1, and tier 3 is a bard-only tier(in core). The top 5 classes in core were all strong spellcasters, and only 1 of them has any caring about what 'school' his spell was.

The balance issues in 3.5 have a lot more to do with things like "Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard", or similar things, not cause a Conjurer is better than an Evoker.

I don't mean the balance between specialists of different schools. I mean that Transmutation and Conjuration are the only schools needed to be a god on the battlefield.

Since you've seen the tier list, you'll notice how the "specialized" casters (beguiler, dread necro, warmage) drop two or three tiers from their unrestricted counterparts once you restrict their spell lists.

Such an approach wouldn't work as well for Conjuration or Transmutation, because those schools really have no obvious weaknesses, and having no such weakness is the primary prerequisite for tiers 1 and 2.

My wording was somewhat unclear. Apologies.

[Grelna the Blue]

Oh, spell compendium, I dont have that one :smalltongue:

Then again, most conjuration fans choose it not for the blast power but because of everything else. Also, weren't the orbs single target ranged attacks? Most evocation blasting spells attack more than one target, so it still has some advantages to conjuration.

Unfortunately (and I realize you'd have no way of knowing this without having all the books), there are area effect Conjuration blaster spells too. For instance, Blast of Flame (also from the SC), a 4th level Conjuration that does up to 10d6 fire damage within a 60' cone, save for half, no SR, or Doom Scarabs (one of the coolest flavor spells in PHII), an area effect Necromancy/Conjuration that does significant damage against which SR is ineffective (it does grant SR against its secondary effect of healing the caster).

[Susano-wo]

If we're redefining spell schools, then maybe the solution to some of these issues would be to have certain spells overlap between schools, so that the orb spells (for example) are now or the 'borderline' between evocation and conjuration... Of course, this should go hand in hand with creating more consistent and thorough definitions of the spell schools for best results- but either/or will at least get you some of the way.

Actually, multi-school spells seems brilliant. Want to blast with conjured elements? conjuration creates the orb, and evocation allows it to be stronger than normal as well as, oh, say, not burning you.

RE: shocking grasp/burning hands as Transmutation: if grouping according to a theme that makes a lot of sense. If you want to be a melee wizard, trans is a good school, what with self altering spells, so it makes sense, thematically, that your melee attack spells are also in it. Just not a lot of sense according to the definitions/descriptions of the spells schools

one final quibble: Orb spells ignoring SR is not flavor. If anything is the opposite of flavor, that is it >.>

[Godskook]

I don't mean the balance between specialists of different schools. I mean that Transmutation and Conjuration are the only schools needed to be a god on the battlefield.

Since you've seen the tier list, you'll notice how the "specialized" casters (beguiler, dread necro, warmage) drop two or three tiers from their unrestricted counterparts once you restrict their spell lists.

Such an approach wouldn't work as well for Conjuration or Transmutation, because those schools really have no obvious weaknesses, and having no such weakness is the primary prerequisite for tiers 1 and 2.

My wording was somewhat unclear. Apologies.

1.You'll notice that of those 3, only Warmage drops below tier 3, and even then, that's cause he's a shoehorned blaster, with very little else to his name.

2.Transmutation sits a lot on the polymorph spells. I'd be curious as to what a beguiler-esque Transmuter would be capable of without it.

3.Warmage *is* a conjurer/evoker, not an evoker. Look over the spell list and notice how many conjurations made the list, including the orb spells.

[Reynard]

2.Transmutation sits a lot on the polymorph spells. I'd be curious as to what a beguiler-esque Transmuter would be capable of without it.

It'd still probably make a decent class. Pretty gishy, and mostly with pre-combat buffs. Transmutation also has some battlefield control in there.
EDIT: And not forgetting that it'll also get a select few spells that aren't Trans, or maybe some spells from the Druid or Cleric lists.

[Godskook]

It'd still probably make a decent class. Pretty gishy, and mostly with pre-combat buffs. Transmutation also has some battlefield control in there.
EDIT: And not forgetting that it'll also get a select few spells that aren't Trans, or maybe some spells from the Druid or Cleric lists.

Oh, I expect that a non-polymorph Transmutation Nerf-Caster would still do quite well, just not tier 1 or 2 well.

[SurlySeraph]

Spell schools should be arranged according to what role they play in combat, not what "makes sense." I know that overemphasizing balance leads to class homogeneity akin to 4e, but I also think that a sizable portion of 3.5's balance issues come from the seemingly haphazard arrangement of the core spell lists.

I like this idea, and placing them by role would also make more sense in some cases. (Conjuration summons a mundane orb of fire that does more damage than being on the Plane of Fire? Really?)

With that said, it's very easy to fluff things so that they fit in one school rather than another, and placing them by role would take away some of the nice things that weaker schools do have. For example, Contingency really doesn't make much sense as an Evocation spell; Universal or Divination are more plausible, but that takes away one of Evocation's best assets. Mage Armor is Conjuration because it summons armor made of force, but the SpC has a bunch of spells like Manyjaws and Dinosaur Stampede that are Evocation because they summon things made of force. Necromancy has fear spells and Enchantment doesn't because *handwave*, but taking away all all its Will save effects would make Necromancy a lot weaker. Necromancy has Astral Projection and Conjuration doesn't because it involves souls, not just travel, but Conjuration has enough breakable spells without Astral Projection.

And defining "role" would be tricky. You can't really have "Buff school," "Blasting school," "Mind-affecting school," "Action economy school," etc., both because those wouldn't be balanced against each other and because a lot of spells have effects that fit multiple roles.

[Sir Swindle89]

2.Transmutation sits a lot on the polymorph spells. I'd be curious as to what a beguiler-esque Transmuter would be capable of without it.

w/o polymorph you's still have flesh to stone and some buff stuff I don't think you cold make it to T2 w/o polymorph tho. Polymorph is pretty broken.


3.Warmage *is* a conjurer/evoker, not an evoker. Look over the spell list and notice how many conjurations made the list, including the orb spells.

I never really noticed that. Would throwing some control at the spell list get them to T2?

[Coplantor]

@Surly: What about something akin to te schools of magic in the elder scrolls? Destruction for damage dealing spells. conjuration for all your summons, alteration for, well, alteration, healing, illusionism, mysticism being the oddball... I'm sure I forgot something...

[Toliudar]

Warmages do have some control, with wall spells and black tentacles and the like. What would get them to T2, IMHO, would be to add the teleportation line of spells to the mix.

If we could think of some justification for moving teleports out of Conjuration, that would also go a ways towards balancing the schools.

[Godskook]

I never really noticed that. Would throwing some control at the spell list get them to T2?

They have fogs already, but going up two tiers is a hard road. Iirc, there was a thread about giving them access to the SM line, which makes thematic sense for the class for quite a few reasons(on their two-school list, SM are "WAR" spells, honestly), and it might've been the consensus that it would bring them up to at least tier 3.

[Sir Swindle89]

I like this idea, and placing them by role would also make more sense in some cases. (Conjuration summons a mundane orb of fire that does more damage than being on the Plane of Fire? Really?)

Although it does make sense to do things by role I don't really support that, it smacks of 4th ed. I really think just a cearer definition of what falls into each school (and a hefty hit with the nerf bat and/or ban hammer to certain broken spells) is what's needed.