Is it just me or...

[DisgruntledDM]

Do a lot of the creatures in the Monster Manual look like they'd be more at home in a sci-fi game rather than a high fantasy one? Take, for example, the Ethereal Filcher, Phantom Fungus, the Digester and the Otyugh. They seem to have come from some unknown galaxy rather than a medieval fantasy setting.

[Dr.Epic]

How do we define what is fantasy and what is sci-fi? Really, fantasy and sci-fi are pretty much genre brothers (or sisters, I'm not sure).

[Vizzerdrix]

See I've always felt that way about dragons, myself. :smallconfused:

I think it has to do with too much Godzilla when I was young.

[Godskook]

The difference between sci-fi and fantasy is a 'feel', and people disagree as to what that 'feel' is. Hell, Star Wars has been accused of being a fantasy dressed up as a sci-fi, rather than a 'proper' sci-fi(probably by a trekkie, but I digress).

[KillianHawkeye]

Personally, I think the otyugh looks like something from a Final Fantasy game, although I'm not sure which side of the argument that's actually helping. :smallamused:

[DisgruntledDM]

Perhaps I should've said Space Opera instead of Sci-fi.

[Dr.Epic]

See I've always felt that way about dragons, myself. :smallconfused:

I think it has to do with too much Godzilla when I was young.

You think dragons belong in a sci-fi setting? To me dragons ARE the fantasy monster. I think dragons, I think knights in armor and magic.


Personally, I think the otyugh looks like something from a Final Fantasy game, although I'm not sure which side of the argument that's actually helping. :smallamused:

Well, most people can't tell their gender by looking at them so yeah.:smallwink:

[Vizzerdrix]

You think dragons belong in a sci-fi setting? To me dragons ARE the fantasy monster. I think dragons, I think knights in armor and magic.

Nah. For me, it's things like hydras, manticores, giants and unicorns. Those say Fantasy to me.

[Coplantor]

I dont know, monsters from those seems to be easily exchangeable, I can see a xenomorph be called a demon and thrown into a fantasy setting.

[Salanmander]

This is reminding me of Dr. Who, where ghosts, vampires, werewolves, etc. all end up being aliens.

[Ravens_cry]

This is reminding me of Dr. Who, where ghosts, vampires, werewolves, etc. all end up being aliens.
Or Scooby Doo, where everyone ends up being local cranks in improbably good masks. Then everyone goes back to the van to smoke a joint.

[Talyn]

Well, you've got Spelljammer, which is already pretty space-operaesque - and, come to think of it, I'm pretty sure every monster you described (except maybe the otyugh, which was from first edition) orginally came from Spelljammer, along with the Mercane, the Astral Dreadnought, and a bunch of the other more alien-y monsters.

[grimbold]

i think some of those sci-fi styled monsters are there if you want to have a space campaign.
cuz you know technically D&D is supposed to be generic

[Mastikator]

The difference between sci-fi and fantasy is a 'feel', and people disagree as to what that 'feel' is. Hell, Star Wars has been accused of being a fantasy dressed up as a sci-fi, rather than a 'proper' sci-fi(probably by a trekkie, but I digress).

And of course any trekkie is correct in making such accusations. :smalltongue:

[Godskook]

And of course any trekkie is correct in making such accusations. :smalltongue:

Mistaken, you are.

[DisgruntledDM]

Well, you've got Spelljammer, which is already pretty space-operaesque - and, come to think of it, I'm pretty sure every monster you described (except maybe the otyugh, which was from first edition) orginally came from Spelljammer, along with the Mercane, the Astral Dreadnought, and a bunch of the other more alien-y monsters.

Spelljammer was before my time, thanks for informing me of that.

[Sillycomic]

Mistaken, you are.

Some people who might disagree?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceOpera

Star Wars is probably the most famous modern example of space opera. In Star Wars, technology is either magic (the Force) or slightly faster versions of today's gadgets (blaster rifles, hovercars, space ships) and the characters would be right at home in a fantasy novel (evil emperor, farmboy, princess).

The definition says it is fantasy with an intergalactic background.

The first movie was rescuing a princess. Come one, how much more fantasy can you get?


Fantasy is all about monsters and magic. Some monsters have more of an alien quality, but that's because most monsters have that in common. Monsters are supposed to be alien, the more something is unfamiliar the scarier it is. And monsters are supposed to scare people.

And then you have a bunch of heroes who try to stop the big bad scary thing from being big bad and scary (hmm, same plot for Star Wars, how cool is that?)

[Godskook]

Some people who might disagree?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceOpera

Star Wars is probably the most famous modern example of space opera. In Star Wars, technology is either magic (the Force) or slightly faster versions of today's gadgets (blaster rifles, hovercars, space ships) and the characters would be right at home in a fantasy novel (evil emperor, farmboy, princess).

The definition you linked to lists both Star Wars *AND* Star Trek, so I'm confused at what you're trying to say.

[Sillycomic]

That Star Wars isn't science fiction. It's a western that happens to be in space.

[Godskook]

That Star Wars isn't science fiction. It's a western that happens to be in space.

Ah.

1.Your link disagrees with you.

2.You're thinking of Firefly which is both Sci-Fi *and* a Western.

[Sillycomic]

My link agrees with me that it isn't science fiction.

If you want to disagree that it's a western? Fine, I don't see any merit in calling it hard and fast Western (with a capital W) versus a western (with a small w)

It's a fantasy.... which happens to be set in space.

[randomhero00]

The difference between sci-fi and fantasy is a 'feel', and people disagree as to what that 'feel' is. Hell, Star Wars has been accused of being a fantasy dressed up as a sci-fi, rather than a 'proper' sci-fi(probably by a trekkie, but I digress).

I respectfully disagree. Fantasy is a genre based on its own rules. Scifi is based on current speculation of real life rules and physics.

Its just happened to occur that they've gotten a different feel. But for instance, Dr. Who is Fantasy, despite how scifi it looks.

All in all there are very few actual, full on scifi genres. Scifi is often mixed with fantasy so one might make an argument that there are hybrids.

Anyways, point being, fantasy can have any kind of creature it wants in it. I've played games where there were "alien" quasi undead that came from space.

PS also don't forget the far realm. That's the whole point, is that they feel alien to us. Aberrations too.

[Godskook]

My link agrees with me that it isn't science fiction.

If you want to disagree that it's a western? Fine, I don't see any merit in calling it hard and fast Western (with a capital W) versus a western (with a small w)

It's a fantasy.... which happens to be set in space.

Incorrect, your link was to "Space Opera", which calls Star Wars a good example of such. And then, look at what subgenre is listed as a part of SciFi (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceFiction).

Also, it never says 'Star Wars is a Fantasy', it says "the characters would be right at home in a fantasy novel". That's distinguishably different, and in fact requires the assumption that the characters aren't currently in a fantasy novel to avoid being a circular statement.

[Mastikator]

Mistaken, you are.

The Force is magic. In the very least it's fantasy AND sci-fi. It's also bad sci-fi. But I like it, so I just think of it as fantasy IN SPACE.

Also, @OP. Yes. Many of the things in D&D feel like it would belong in a Star Wars movie. Other things feel like it'd belong in Naruto (or whatever it is you kids watch these days).
Which is fine, if you're into that sorta thing. There's nothing with with space Tolkien with a touch of Naruto.

[Sillycomic]

All right, you wanna play that game? Tv tropes war... 2010! It's on.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fantasy

Fantasy has a subsection called Science Fantasy, which Star Wars would fit in perfectly.

I'm saying Star Wars is a fantasy story, which happens to take place in the backdrop of space.

The link doesn't say that, I'm saying it. I actually took a science fiction class in high school, and one of the highlights of that class was one kid who wanted to do some extra credit by reading some more science fiction books and doing a report on them. So he pulls out a few Star Wars novels, and the sci-fi teacher just laughs at him and tells him it's not science fiction and he wouldn't accept it.

That one moment made my day. Hooray for science!



Also, it never says 'Star Wars is a Fantasy', it says "the characters would be right at home in a fantasy novel". That's distinguishably different, and in fact requires the assumption that the characters aren't currently in a fantasy novel to avoid being a circular statement.

So, your logic is that the characters aren't distinguishable from characters in a fantasy novel because you aren't sure the characters aren't in a fantasy novel? That's not circular logic, that's arguing my point for me.

Either the Star Wars characters aren't in a fantasy (thus they can easily be put in the fantasy genre mold with archetypes such as princess, overlord, farmboy turned hero, and the like)

Or Star Wars character ARE in a fantasy novel (in which case that's my point)


If you want to call Star Wars Sci fi because they dressed up the fantasy genre with some space ships and laser swords... be my guest

[Eloel]

Either the Star Wars characters aren't in a fantasy (thus they can easily be put in the fantasy genre mold with archetypes such as princess, overlord, farmboy turned hero, and the like)


While I haven't watched/read/whatever Star Wars (sue me!), I think this is exactly the point he's arguing.
"They are not in a fantasy". Whether they can be put easily into one is irrelevant, since even if characters would feel good in a fantasy setting, they're not in one.

Again, I'm just trying to restate what he did, and have no actual opinion (nor knowledge) on the topic.

[Godskook]

All right, you wanna play that game? Tv tropes war... 2010! It's on.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fantasy

Fantasy has a subsection called Science Fantasy, which Star Wars would fit in perfectly.

Sure, but my assertion was that Star Wars was a 'proper' SciFi. That it might also have fantasy elements is fine by me, but your 'authoritative' source(Really, tvtropes is an authoritative source now?) agrees that it is a SciFi without caveat.


So, your logic is that the characters aren't distinguishable from characters in a fantasy novel because you aren't sure the characters aren't in a fantasy novel? That's not circular logic, that's arguing my point for me.

That's not my logic(poorly worded as it was), and that double negative is hard to follow your meaning on.


Either the Star Wars characters aren't in a fantasy (thus they can easily be put in the fantasy genre mold with archetypes such as princess, overlord, farmboy turned hero, and the like)

That sounds a bit closer to my logic, and given the close connections between SciFi and Fantasy, you could probably transcribe any story from either across the boundary with little effort or feelings of "out of place".


If you want to call Star Wars Sci fi because they dressed up the fantasy genre with some space ships and laser swords... be my guest

I don't 'want' to call it SciFi. It is a SciFi.

[Sillycomic]

I simply said some people disagree with you. Not sure how you interpreted that as "authoritative." I suppose some people can be authoritative.

How about an essay by Ken Wharton?

http://www.smartpopbooks.com/1257

Or work by Ligia Luckhurst?

http://starwars-edifice.co.uk/starwars-edifice_not_science_fiction.htm

There are sci-fi elements in Star Wars. These are things that are in the backdrop however, and have no real use to the story, the plot, the characters or the overall themes of the story.

But, that would make it a fantasy story with some scifi elements in it.

However, that's basically what you're saying too. I guess we're just in disagreement of who gets top billing in the Star Wars Genre. Is it Fantasy with some sci fi (me) or Sci fi with some fantasy (you)

[Susano-wo]

[must not participate in derail to debate about sci-fi definition....stuggling...will...fading...]:smallwink:

In any case, I think that the spelljammer origin hypothesis, if correct explains much of the odd monsters in the abberation category.

Dragons, are pretty much the iconic fantasty monster to me, though there are a host of others that scream fanstasy, such as Manticores, Harpies, Griffons, etc.

And dammit, I'll just say this: if Star Wars is a sci fi, its a really crappy one, since it doesnt use, understand, or even seem to give much of a crap about, k'now, science. [dammit ><]

[JonestheSpy]

There are plenty of twisted, weird abominations with no mythological/folkloric precedent in fantasy works that inspired Gygax and the first wave of game designers. Try reading Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, Jack Vance or C.L. Moore - not too mention the original ruling Pulp Triumverate of Robert E Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, and H.P. Lovecraft.

Man, kids these days, nobody reads the actual source material...

[Fiery Diamond]

I'll just pop in here and say something that will probably get me yelled at, but here goes anyway:

Science Fantasy is a subgenre. It is a subgenre of Fantasy. It is a subgenre of Sci-fi.

Pathetic attempt at making a text Venn Diagram.


........________________...________________......
....../..........................\/..........................\.....
..../............................/\...........................\.....
../............................./...\...........................\...
./............................/Scie\...........................\..
|.............Fantasy....|.nce..|........Science.. .......|.
.\............................\.Fant/...........Fiction......./...
..\............................\.asy/.........................../...
....\...........................\.../.........................../...
......\..........................\./.........................../..
........________________...________________

Seriously, what's so hard about this?

Both Star Wars and Star Trek fall under the Science Fantasy part, though one has significantly higher "Fantasy" elements in comparison to "Science" elements than the other does.

[absolmorph]

As others have said, the problem is that people disagree on what is and isn't fantasy. Some people think psionics fits into fantasy just fine. Some people don't. It's all opinion.

Also, on Star Wars:
Silly Comic, Ligia breaks it down too far and doesn't actually use the definition of fantasy (which is when supernatural phenomenon are a primary part of the plot, theme or setting); the only supernatural part is the Force, which only plays a significant role with Luke, Vader and Palpatine. You could take the character-types of the main characters of at least three of the five stories she listed and plop them into a fantasy story. The same could be done with the plots. I don't know about The Andromeda Strain or Close Encounter With the Third Kind (I haven't had any experience with them).
In The Matrix, Neo is The Chosen and ends up doing several things which aren't possible by our understanding of physics. He's capable of this because he's The One.

[Godskook]

And then there's Niven and Clark:

Clark: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Niven: "Any sufficiently rigorously defined magic is indistinguishable from technology."

So really, fantasy and scifi are merely siblings of the same over-genre.

[Sillycomic]

I would agree with that. Although I think Ligia is mostly arguing that Star Wars isn't science fiction. Whether it's fantasy seems secondary to his argument.

Although he gives a brilliant definition of what science fiction should be:

Science fiction is a narrative genre in which some scientific concept or development, real or imaginary, human or alien, serves as an essential tool for propelling the story forward.

Star wars is propelled forward by oppressive government, powerful overlords, and to a lesser extent trade embargoes.


And, some topic related posting:

D&D does try to encorporate different concepts and genres into their settings. So it would make sense that other monsters are thrown in. There are things from other planes, other worlds, even from the afterlife.

There are books that help you run a more steampunk d&d, or more horror. Perhaps the people making D&D just wanted to stat up enough creatures so you could throw pretty much whatever you wanted at your heroes and have it make some sort of sense. Be it awakened barbarian dinosaurs with ninja monkeys or ninjas with laser swords and blunderbusses rocketing across the galaxy.

[Tvtyrant]

I personally feel that differentiating between science fiction and fantasy is silly; look at Cthulu. Its so deep into fantasy land there wouldn't be any rescuing it, except at least half the people I know use the term science fiction for it. The truth is that they are compatible generes, any attempt to make something one or the other is going to be using shifting and artificial standards.

With regards to the science fiction in D&D there is an entire group of creatures (aberrations) that fall under science fiction rather then fantasy. The LoTR wouldn't have had the same feeling if Ithiliads with LifeHelm Spelljammers came down out of the sky and pwnd some grues. If you don't like the space stuff don't use it, and if you do then use it. D&D is designed to allow you to adventure, doesn't care what type.

[Otacon17]

I've always thought that Star Wars was more fantasy, myself... sci-fi generally takes some vaguely plausible technological marvel and examines what life would be like if it were real. Example: Ray Bradbury's A Sound of Thunder, which examines the reprecussions of time travel. Star Wars contains space ships and lightsabers, yes, but they are far from the focus of the story.

Star Wars fits the definition of fantasy because it involves, as absolmorph said, supernatural phenomenon as a primary part of the plot. The Force is a supernatural, er, force (and yes, I am purposely ignoring the idea of midichlorians). Considering the original trilogy focuses heavily on Luke learning how to control the Force, I'd say it's a primary part of the plot.

That being said, yes, it's science fantasy.

On a somewhat related note, the otyugh (if I'm remembering it correctly) always kind of reminded me of the Star Wars trash-compactor monster :smalltongue:

[Sillycomic]

Not to get way super off of topic, but wouldn't Cthulhu be considered horror?

Oh, and you live in Corvallis? How cool is that. I'm in Portland. Actually, I lived in Monmouth for a time. That would have been only a few minutes away. Yeah! Nerds living close to me is cool.

[Zeofar]

I think part of what you're seeing here is that aberrations are meant to have an not-from-this-world feel. The Otyugh and Ethereal Filcher are both aberrations, and, frankly, I don't know why the Digester isn't one since it looks like and has the abilities of one. Phantom Fungus are plants, and they could arguably come from another galaxy. So, yes, some creatures do seem to not fit into a standard fantasy setting, and I'm thinking that isn't entirely unintentional. I think you'll find that many that seem out of place are aberrations, and that is a pattern right there.

[Susano-wo]

Not to get way super off of topic, but wouldn't Cthulhu be considered horror?

Oh, and you live in Corvallis? How cool is that. I'm in Portland. Actually, I lived in Monmouth for a time. That would have been only a few minutes away. Yeah! Nerds living close to me is cool.

The thing about Horror is that it can also be Pulp, Sci-Fi, Fantasy...really its compatible with about any other genre tag asdie from maybe romanitc comedy:smallbiggrin:

[big teej]

You think dragons belong in a sci-fi setting? To me dragons ARE the fantasy monster. I think dragons, I think knights in armor and magic.



hm...

"the difference between sci-fi and fantasy is that in sci-fi, the dragon has to flap its wings"

thats what I always thought the difference was.

:smalltongue:

the following ramble is on topic for once, but it IS a ramble. so



on a slightly more serious note. I've always viewed them as nearly interchangeable, just different fluffyness

lets take Warhammer for example
warhammer and warhammer 40k are largely similar.

instead of full plate, we have power armor
instead of +awesome swords, we have lascannons and heavy bolters
instead of fiends we have daemons
etc.

I cannot call to mind a single plot in either genre that could not be dressed up in the other and it work.

perfectly.

hell, even startrek could be converted (sea-based adventures anybody?)

then again, I suppose thats more a comment on plot....../ramble

[WarrenZig]

I dont know, monsters from those seems to be easily exchangeable, I can see a xenomorph be called a demon and thrown into a fantasy setting.

Fun Fact!: Yautja (Predators) refer to Xenomorphs as Dragons.

Also, Sci Fi (Not SyFy...) and Fantasy are the same thing in a different setting.

[Lawless III]

It's a bit far removed now, but on an earlier point, Star Wars isn't a "space western". It's "space samurai":smallbiggrin:. Both Lucas and Leone (creator of the famous Dollars trilogy) were inspired by Akira Kurosawa's samurai movies such as Yojimbo.