Party Build Help [D&D 3.5]

[Lord.Sorasen]

First off I want to apologize for asking so many questions all at a time.


Anyway, on topic: I'm dming, and my party has mostly decided the characters they wish to create. However, since we are all children of the information age, they have all sorts of crazy supplement based things they wish to do. As a dm I would like their goals to be within reason, but I'd still like to see some level of balance. Please note that everyone in the group has played Dungeons and Dragons before, but is still considered new. I suppose what I'll do is post all of their characters below. If anyone can help me make sure things are balanced (as well as fun to play) it would be very much appreciated.

The first character is a Warforged Dragonfire Adept. She has taken the "adamantine Body" feat, and hopes to combine it with her high constitution and dragon scale Natural Armor bonus to create something of a fire breathing dragon tank.

- Would there be any good ways to further boost AC? Particularly those not requiring much dexterity. We're using a 32 point buy system so it might be maneagable to make room for a little.
- Are there any Alternate Class Features which could replace invocations, at least to some degree? Or some sort of feat that allows one to use invocations for other purposes? (the same way some classes can burn spell slots for other benefits)
- I have chosen to allow her to take metabreath feats, deciding that expressed in rounds was supposed to imply that the breath attacks could be used frequently (as it compares to a breath attack expressed in minutes). Would this be inbalancing?

Second Character is a human paladin. She may very much end up the leader, whether she originally intended to or not, based on her being the only one who even resembles the standard humanoid. She hasn't really decided much in terms of powers... but here's the thing. She wanted a special mount other than a standard horse, and became transfixed on the Nightmare. And without thinking I said yes.. Looking at the Nightmare, I am realizing it is both evil and also way more powerful than any warhorse. I was thinking I make her take the prestige class "Knight of the Iron Glacier" and then replace the megaloceros with the nightmare, which has the same CR. Is this a bad idea? Maybe use the lesser Nightmare, and make it require some other swap? No further questions on this one.

Third character is a vanara (3.0, Oriental Adventures) beguiler.

- I used the "witch" spell list presented in Dungeon Master's guide. Is this a bad idea?
- She wants to be sort of a trickster illusionist sort of thing... She was thinking taking the magic trickster presented in complete trickster, and something else too but I forget what it was I'm afraid.

Fourth character is a neanderthal with the half-ogre template (total of +6 str, +2 Con, -4 int, -2 cha. Large Size, giant and human blood, +2 AC, 40 feet movement, weapon focus with some primitive weapons.. +1 LA.. I think that's it) psychic warrior. I'm a bit worried he's too powerful but I'm starting to think it will be fine.

Finally we have a Hadozee, he wants to specialize in ranged combat, using ranger, scout, UA ranged combat barbarian variant, or something of that sort, and wonders in which ways he can take advantage of his feet (which qualify as hands.)


Anyway, sorry for the extended question. Thanks in advance for any responses ^^

[gorfnab]

- Would a warforged with a heavy armor type feat need proficiency with heavy armor to avoid penalties?

From the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) page 7


Does a warforged with the Adamantine Body feat need
to have Heavy Armor Proficiency in order to avoid
suffering penalties for wearing heavy armor?
No. The Adamantine Body feat resembles heavy armor in
many ways, but it doesn’t require you to have any special
proficiency.



- Would taking a level of fighter to gain tower shield proficiency be at all worth it?
- Are there any Alternate Class Features which could replace invocations, at least to some degree?
- I have chosen to allow her to take metabreath feats, deciding that expressed in rounds was supposed to imply that the breath attacks could be used frequently (as it compares to a breath attack expressed in minutes). Would this be inbalancing?

Tower Shields are never really worth it useless you animate them or heavily optimize that character around them. Only go fighter if you need the bonus feat.

There are no ACFs that I know of to replace invocations.

Using the metabreath feats like that would really not cause much of imbalance if any in my opinion.

Also here is a Dragonfire Adept Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!?post_id=3383758 42#338375842).

[Galileo]

If you're going to ask for advice on all the characters, go ahead and post their problems here. Change the thread name to "party build help" or something.

[JeminiZero]

- Are there any Alternate Class Features which could replace invocations, at least to some degree?

Do note that its possible for a DFA to live with heavy armor. Essentially each time she casts an invocation she has a chance of failure. But this won't be an issue outside of combat (i.e. she can keep trying until she eventually succeeds). In which case she wants to focus entirely on invocs that are only cast outside of combat e.g. See the Unseen, Endure Exposure (Extremely important! lets her breath NOT damage party members standing in the way), flight, etc

Although admittedly some of the better invocs are combat only (like Chilling Fog).

[Lord.Sorasen]

Done. Thank you for everything so far ^^

[Darrin]

The first character is a Warforged Dragonfire Adept. She has taken the "adamantine Body" feat, and hopes to combine it with her high constitution and dragon scale Natural Armor bonus to create something of a fire breathing dragon tank.

- Would there be any good ways to further boost AC? Particularly those not requiring much dexterity. We're using a 32 point buy system so it might be maneagable to make room for a little.


Law Devotion can provide +3 AC for 10 rounds 1/day.

The darkness invocation gives her an all-day 20% miss chance, which is sometimes better than having a high AC.



- Are there any Alternate Class Features which could replace invocations, at least to some degree? Or some sort of feat that allows one to use invocations for other purposes? (the same way some classes can burn spell slots for other benefits)


There's a feat in Drow of the Underdark that would allow her to spend one of her darkness SLAs (she has an infinite number of them) as a swift action to Hide In Plain Sight.



- I have chosen to allow her to take metabreath feats, deciding that expressed in rounds was supposed to imply that the breath attacks could be used frequently (as it compares to a breath attack expressed in minutes). Would this be inbalancing?


Some DMs require additional hoops for DFAs to jump through to get metabreath feats (Dragonborn of Bahumat, Power Surge), but balance-wise you should be fine. Just keep an eye out for stacked metabreath effects, like an infinitely-enlarged breath attack.



Second Character is a human paladin. She may very much end up the leader, whether she originally intended to or not, based on her being the only one who even resembles the standard humanoid. She hasn't really decided much in terms of powers... but here's the thing. She wanted a special mount other than a standard horse, and became transfixed on the Nightmare. And without thinking I said yes.. Looking at the Nightmare, I am realizing it is both evil and also way more powerful than any warhorse. I was thinking I make her take the prestige class "Knight of the Iron Glacier" and then replace the megaloceros with the nightmare, which has the same CR. Is this a bad idea? Maybe use the lesser Nightmare, and make it require some other swap? No further questions on this one.


Use the lesser nightmare (Planar Handbook), maybe nerf it a bit on the HD (call it a "juvenile lesser nightmare"), and let her "upgrade" it later. As for Knight of the Iron Glacier... that could use a lot of rework, but could be a good framework for a "Knight of the Yeah, I Got One Helluva Badass Mount" PrC.



Third character is a vanara (3.0, Oriental Adventures) beguiler.

- I used the "witch" spell list presented in Dungeon Master's guide. Is this a bad idea?
- She wants to be sort of a trickster illusionist sort of thing... She was thinking taking the magic trickster presented in complete trickster, and something else too but I forget what it was I'm afraid.


Witch spell list is a little too sparse... more limited than beguiler. For an experienced player, the lack of spells would probably drive them nuts ("No glitterdust?!?", "Whaddya mean I don't have haste?"). If it's a casual player just looking to be the party healer, some general buffing/debuffing, and play some pranks on some NPCs... I don't know, I'd probably try to steer them back towards beguiler or bard. Why exactly wasn't the beguiler spell list acceptable? No healing?



Fourth character is a neanderthal with the half-ogre template (total of +6 str, +2 Con, -4 int, -2 cha. Large Size, giant and human blood, +2 AC, 40 feet movement, weapon focus with some primitive weapons.. +1 LA.. I think that's it) psychic warrior. I'm a bit worried he's too powerful but I'm starting to think it will be fine.


Should be fine. Lots of melee damage looks overpowered in the lower levels, but after about ECL 6 the full casters start to pwn the battlefield. In most cases, PsyWar doesn't have access to the game-breaking psionic stuff.



Finally we have a Hadozee, he wants to specialize in ranged combat, using ranger, scout, UA ranged combat barbarian variant, or something of that sort, and wonders in which ways he can take advantage of his feet (which qualify as hands.)


Hmm... I don't see anything about the feet counting as hands in the racial abilities, but I can see how that might be argued. Maybe he can use a footbow on the ground? Or maybe dual-wield two longbows while flying?

[Lord.Sorasen]

Use the lesser nightmare (Planar Handbook), maybe nerf it a bit on the HD (call it a "juvenile lesser nightmare"), and let her "upgrade" it later. As for Knight of the Iron Glacier... that could use a lot of rework, but could be a good framework for a "Knight of the Yeah, I Got One Helluva Badass Mount" PrC.

To be honest, I figured she'd only want to take one level of it.. And in the case of Knight of the Iron Glacier, the only feature given at first is the improved mount.

To be completely honest with you, the aspect of lesser nightmare I don't quite like is its lack of flight. Sure it's still a fire horse, but something about it just doesn't seem quite the same. It'd probably be too overpowered though, I'm expecting? And that smoke thing, too... Would it be possible to give her lesser nightmare, and grant it its nightmare abilities as her paladin levels grant it more hit dice?



Hmm... I don't see anything about the feet counting as hands in the racial abilities, but I can see how that might be argued. Maybe he can use a footbow on the ground? Or maybe dual-wield two longbows while flying?

The argument comes from what seem to have been its powers in spelljammer.


Witch spell list is a little too sparse... more limited than beguiler. For an experienced player, the lack of spells would probably drive them nuts ("No glitterdust?!?", "Whaddya mean I don't have haste?"). If it's a casual player just looking to be the party healer, some general buffing/debuffing, and play some pranks on some NPCs... I don't know, I'd probably try to steer them back towards beguiler or bard. Why exactly wasn't the beguiler spell list acceptable? No healing?

It's not so much that it wasn't acceptable as that it seemed to lack some of the illusion or charm based powers I was expecting from the class. The one playing it, it's her first character, and she wanted to be sort of like a fortune teller, but rather than a real diviner one who simply tricked people into thinking she'd predicted their futures with a bit of illusion, etc. In other words: I used it for flavor. But I'll definitely consider switching it back.

[Tvtyrant]

For the Paladin use a refluffed version of the Unicorn prc (I don't remember the exact name) which gives you a Clestial Unicorn Charger later on. Then she can get a Nightmare and later use the charger part to make it the Cauchemar.

[Lord.Sorasen]

For the Paladin use a refluffed version of the Unicorn prc (I don't remember the exact name) which gives you a Celestial Unicorn Charger later on. Then she can get a Nightmare and later use the charger part to make it the Cauchemar.

Do you remember which book I would find this class in? Also what is a charger? I have seen the term before but am not quite certain what it means.

[Tvtyrant]

It is complete Divine I think, and the charger thing is a template that makes your mount better.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Actually just found it now. It's called "beloved of Valarian" and is in fact in Book of Exalted Deeds.

Oh man, though, let me tell you, this would need a lot of reworking. Everything about it is made with the whole "nature, unicorn, etc" in mind, including an entire separate progression type spell list. Another thing that worries me is that it does not state that you designate the unicorn as a special mount: She's very specific on wanting to be a paladin. Perhaps more so than she is on wanting to have a Nightmare, even.

[Tvtyrant]

Well you can always make your own :P

I would do the following
Full Spell Progression
Full BaB
D8 HP
Transforms the Paladin Mount into a Nightmare (make it whitefire if you like)
The mount progresses at an improved rate (maybe add familiar stuff)
Ability to turn into the Cauchemer for turns per day equal to prc class level.


Essentially you make it mount based, with the fluff of "saving" a nightmare by making it good. Could have mounted combat based requirements like ride-by attack. To balance it you could either give a lower HD or less spellcasting, though since you have casters you probably don't need to worry about it being too powerful. Besides which it wouldn't work in most dungeon settings, so its going to see limited use.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I will give this a shot! The suggestions you have given seem good to me.

[Tvtyrant]

I will give this a shot! The suggestions you have given seem good to me.

:D Always happy to help!

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

For the Warforged person I would look at some attachments that might come in handy, and if there aren't any that look/work well maky your own (within reason of course).

[Tvtyrant]

I was thinking about the Warforged and I remembered something; it doesn't make attack rolls! Its breathe weapon is DC based, not attack roll based; this means instead of taking a feat for tower shields it can just use them untrained without taking any penalty. If it needs to make an attack it can just drop the shield as a free action instead.

Also you could look for ways to add Con to AC, which would add even more AC, and an amulet of natural armor.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Amulet of Natural Armor? What does it do? And this knowledge on tower shields is truly fantastic.

Also what do you mean by parts?


To be honest I'd like to "make my own" as infrequently as possible, as I am still fairly new to the system. But I can certainly give it a shot when necessary.

Once again many thanks to everyone for all this information.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/warforged-components

Warforged components. They are handy add-ons that Warforged can buy/make to give them some extra options. The site I linked says what books the parts are from.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Oh ok, I will definitely look into this. Those cables seem incredibly useful right now.

PS I just realized the fact that the witch spell list has access to some healing powers may indeed be an important factor. Not to the girl choosing the class, but rather to the others (the hadozee specifically) who had considered taking something with healing capabilities but figured it would be covered. Also I figured as a very new player she won't quite recognize what she has missed.

[Tvtyrant]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#amuletofNaturalArmor

Increases Natural Armor, which stacks with shields and metal armor. Si combined with the +4-6 from the Tower shield it increases the armor of the Warforged very high. Not sure what level your starting at, but it is eventually a much have.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Currently starting at level 1, but we're gaining experience all over the place, so the levels should rise fairly quickly.

Man, this is just beautiful.

Just considered: Should I grant the prestige class any bonuses to the paladin's paladin abilities? Namely smite evil and lay on hands, I mean.

[Darrin]

Oh ok, I will definitely look into this. Those cables seem incredibly useful right now.


The Warforged DFA as an armored tank works very well. Their breath weapon is their primary class ability, and it doesn't require an attack roll. So she can tank up with adamantine plating, a tower shield, etc. and blast away with her breath weapon.

Note: Unlike most SLAs, invocations have verbal and somatic components, and they are subject to arcane spell failure checks. Adamantine body has a 35% ASF. This isn't a big deal when she casts her all-day buffs at the start of the day, she can just keep trying until the invocation works. In combat, this could get *really* frustrating, so I'd offer to give her a bonus feat, something similar to "Still spell" or "Still SLA": 3/day (or maybe X/day, X = Con modifier), she can ignore ASF to cast an invocation. This gives her an opportunity to shine in an emergency, and still keeps her power level relatively balanced.

Her breath weapon is *not* an SLA, and does not roll for ASF. Since she'll be relying on it for the majority of combat, she'll want to pump up her save DC as high as possible: buffing Con, Ability Focus, and anything that reduces the target's Dex/Reflex saves. Throwing tanglefoot bags, lassos, nets, or anything that can entangle makes her breath weapon harder to resist (entangle has a -4 Dex penalty, so -2 to Ref saves). Making sure she picks up a Dragon Spirit Cincture (Magic Item Compendium p. 95) early on would also be good.



PS I just realized the fact that the witch spell list has access to some healing powers may indeed be an important factor. Not to the girl choosing the class, but rather to the others (the hadozee specifically) who had considered taking something with healing capabilities but figured it would be covered. Also I figured as a very new player she won't quite recognize what she has missed.

My biggest concern would be later on, when she's finding scrolls, wands, and other spell-trigger items that she can't use because they're not on her spell list, or other players asking her, "Why can't you cast {blah}?" or "Why don't you have this {blah} spell?" For a new player, though, the smaller spell list will probably be a benefit: fewer spells for the player to keep track of, and not so much information overload when trying to decide what to cast. As the player gains experience, I'd probably revisit her spell list so she doesn't run into a lot of "none of my spells can help here" situations.


Amulet of Natural Armor? What does it do?


Just a basic defensive item from the DMG. It adds an "enhancement bonus" to a creature's existing natural armor. At 2nd level, the DFA gets a natural armor bonus of +2. A +1 enhancement adds on top of that, so NA = +3. When dealing with a spell, item, feat, or ability that grants a natural armor bonus, you want to check if the bonus is applied to the creature's base natural armor (sometimes worded as their "effective natural armor") or if it's an enhancement bonus, because multiple enhancement bonuses don't stack. An Amulet of Natural Armor +1 and a Barkskin spell, for example, both provide an enhancement bonus of +2. They don't stack, so you use the highest bonus from the Barkskin spell.

Natural armor is a good thing to have because it stacks with her armor bonus from Adamantine Body. Her Adamantine Body can also be enchanted as if it were masterwork armor. +8 (Adamantine Body) + 1 (+1 enhancement bonus) + 2 (natural armor +2, DFA 2nd level) + 1 (Amulet of Natural Armor +1) = +12 AC bonus.



And this knowledge on tower shields is truly fantastic.


Tower shield can provide a +4 shield bonus, or provide total cover (no line-of-effect, can't be attacked) but "you must give up your attacks to do so". It's not entirely clear what is meant by "attacks", though... there's an argument she could still use an (Su) ability, such as her breath weapon, since it's not an attack action or full-round attack. Casting a spell/invocation also might not be considered an attack (although you'd still have to deal with the tower shield's 50% ASF). However, I think the intent in this case was any overtly offensive action, so just use the same criteria for invisibility spells: if it would end an invisibility spell, it counts as an attack. Indirect attacks, such as summoning monsters, switching the target of a spiritual weapon, or actions that target unattended objects would probably not be considered direct attacks.


Just considered: Should I grant the prestige class any bonuses to the paladin's paladin abilities? Namely smite evil and lay on hands, I mean.

Probably, otherwise she's just a fighter that doesn't get any bonus feats.

Rough kitbash of a "Redeemed Nightmare" PrC:

Knight of the Renewed Dawn

Requirements: Lawful Good, BAB +5, Ride 8, ability to lay on hands or cast a cure spell.
Special: Must use lay on hands or a cure spell to heal a nightmare that is currently dying (-1 to -9 HP) to bring the nightmare up to 1 or more HP. If the character then stands in front of the nightmare, unarmed and completely still (treat as helpless), and offers the nightmare absolution for its sins, the nightmare must make a Will save. The DC is equal to 10 + amount of HP it was below zero + the character's Charisma modifier. If the nightmare fails this save, it becomes "redeemed": it's alignment changes to lawful good, it loses it's flight, special attacks, special qualities, and it's attacks are no longer consider evil-aligned. With a successful DC 20 Diplomacy check (treat the nightmare as Friendly), the nightmare will agree to serve the character as a mount. Otherwise, the nightmare is dismissed to the Celestial realms, but it can be called back later as a special mount (see below). If the nightmare makes its save, it can attack as normal (and even coup de grace if it prefers).

BAB: Full
Good Saves: Fort
Skills: as paladin
Spellcasting: +1 caster level every other level, starting at 1st.

1) Special Redeemed Nightmare Mount: Gain a "redeemed" nightmare as a special mount. If the character already has a special mount from another class, this ability replaces it. A redeemed nightmare uses the same stats as a normal nightmare, but is lawful good, has no fly speed, does not have any special attacks or special qualities, and its attacks are no longer considered evil-aligned. Treat as a paladin's special mount in all ways, except as follows: Her effective paladin level is her Knight of the Renewed Dawn level + 5, or her Knight of the Renewed Dawn level + her paladin levels, whichever is higher. The nightmare does not gain extra hit dice, natural armor, strength bonus, or special abilities as a paladin's mount, but gradually regains it's nightmare abilities (see table below).
2) Bonus Feat: Gain mounted combat, mounted archery, ride-by attack, spirited charge, skill focus (ride), martial weapon proficiency (lance), or weapon focus (lance) as a bonus feat.
3) Smite evil 1/day as a paladin equal to your class level. If you already have smite evil from another class, gain +1 use per day, and your Knight of the Renewed Dawn levels count towards your extra damage.
4) Gain lay on hands as a paladin equal to half your class level. If you already have lay on hands from another class, add half your Knight of the Renewed Dawn levels to your existing lay on hands ability. When used on your special mount, the amount of damage you choose to heal cures double the amount of HP it normally would.
5) Fortune Favors the Bold. 1/day, when riding your mount, you can reroll a failed ride check, jump check, concentration check, or Reflex save for either you or your mount.
6) Full Mounted Attack. You can make a full attack even if your mount moves more than 5' in a round, but not more than one move action. This cannot be used with a charge action.
7) Bonus Feat: Gain mounted combat, mounted archery, ride-by attack, spirited charge, skill focus (ride), martial weapon proficiency (lance), or weapon focus (lance) as a bonus feat.
8) Smite evil 2/day as a paladin equal to your class level. If you already have smite evil from another class, gain +1 use per day, and your Knight of the Renewed Dawn levels count towards your extra damage.
9) Heal Mount (Su). 1/day as an immediate action, you can cast heal as the spell.
10) Full Mounted Charge. You can make a full attack after your mount moves, even if the mount is moving up to its full speed or charging.

Special Mount: As the Knight of the Renewed Dawn gains levels, the redeemed nightmare gains the following abilities:

1) Empathic link, share spells, share saving throws.
2) Improved evasion.
3) Fly 30' (poor).
4) Flaming Hooves (Su) as a nightmare (+1d4 fire damage), except its natural attacks are considered good-aligned for the purposes of bypassing DR.
5) Smoke (Su) as a nightmare, except it is a standard action to use and provides no concealment.
6) Fly 60' (average).
7) Command creatures of its kind up to it's HD, including both redeemed and unredeemed nightmares.
8) Etherealness 3/day, caster level 20
9) Fly 90' (good).
10) Astral projection 3/day, caster level 20

Hmm. Etherealness at ECL 13 and Astral Projection at ECL 15 still seem too powerful. Maybe 1/day instead of 3/day?

[Lord.Sorasen]

So, this is a lot of information to take in all at once, but mostly it seems like good things! I actually tried my own hand at the Nightmare Prestige Class, but judging by yours, I probably way overpowered it. I'll post what I came up with regardless, for critique etc. Also I'm using your class name, because it sounds really nice and I don't really have another equivalent class name.

KNIGHT OF THE RENEWED DAWN

Requirements: Lawful Good, BAB +5, Ride 8 ranks, Smite Evil class ability.
Special: Must have shown compassion to an "always evil" intelligent creature.

Hit Dice: D8
BAB: Full
Will Saves: Fort
Skills: as paladin
Spellcasting: Spells as existing class at first, 5th, and 9th level. (1/4th)

1) Call Lesser Nightmare: A Knight of the Renewed Dawn gains a Lesser Nightmare (Planar Handbook) as a special mount. A redeemed Nightmare uses the same stats as a normal lesser nightmare, but is Lawful Good, and its attacks are no longer evil aligned. Treat as a paladin's special mount in all ways, but her effective paladin level is her Knight of the Renewed Dawn level. If she has paladin levels, these stack.
1) A Knight of the Renewed Dawn gains "Sacred Vow" as a bonus feat.
2) Gain lay on hands as a paladin equal to half your class level. If you already have lay on hands from another class, add half your Knight of the Renewed Dawn levels to your existing lay on hands ability. When used on your special mount, the amount of damage you choose to heal cures double the amount of HP it normally would.
3) Conversion (Su): Once a Day per class level (but only once per encounter), a Knight of the Renewed Dawn can spend a full-round action to attempt to bring evil creatures closer to good. For this ability to succeed, the target must be able to hear the Knight of the Renewed Dawn and speak her language, and must be intelligent. The creature cannot be "always evil" or "always Neutral". Any target of this ability must make a will saving throw against a Knight of the Renewed Dawn's diplomacy check. Those who fail begin to act one step closer to good (Neutral creatures act good, evil creatures act neutral). If you or your allies are currently attacking the target or its allies, it gets a +5 on its saving throw. The effect lasts 7 days, and with each day it may make a new saving throw. If it escapes from the Knight of the Renewed Dawn, it receives a +1 on its saving throw for every day it has been separated. (See EMISSARY OF BARACHIEL for details)
4) Smite evil 1/day as a paladin equal to your class level. If you already have smite evil from another class, gain +1 use per day, and your Knight of the Renewed Dawn levels count towards your extra damage.
5) Sustenance: A Knight of the Renewed Dawn's conversion can permanently change the alignment of those she converts. If a converted creature remains in the presence of the Knight of the Renewed Dawn for a full seven days, and fails its will save on each day, its alignment changes permanently.
6) Call Nightmare: A Knight of the Renewed Dawn's mount gains back its original powers, and changes from a lesser nightmare to a Nightmare for the sake of statistics (though its attacks are still not evil aligned). For all other purposes, it is considered the same being as the lesser nightmare possessed before.
8) Fiend Conversion: A Knight of the Renewed Dawn can use its conversion powers on creatures defined as "always evil" or "always neutral" though these creatures receive a +5 on their saving throws.
10) Celestial Influence: Your Nightmare gains the celestial template. Furthermore, any fiendish creature you convert from this point on loses the fiendish template and takes the celestial template.



Yeah, that.

[Tvtyrant]

I think giving the ability to Heal the mount is an amazing one, you should totally adopt it. If I ever run anything with Nightmares in it I am sooo stealing this idea :P

[Chambers]

For the Paladin's mount you can do what they did in the 3rd Edition Ravenloft books. Any mount or familiar or animal companion becomes what they call a Dread mount, or Dread companion, or whatever.

In essence it's the same creature with a few changes. It's ethical alignment matches the character (Lawful/Chaotic), but it's moral alignment is always Evil. The mount has a telepathic link to it's owner and can sense the owner's hopes, fears, and desires...but the mount doesn't understand why the owner should repress herself. So what happens is you have an evil mount that serves the Paladin in ways that the Paladin might not like, but the mount is just trying it's best to please the Paladin.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I think giving the ability to Heal the mount is an amazing one, you should totally adopt it. If I ever run anything with Nightmares in it I am sooo stealing this idea :P

The healing is definitely a nice idea. Should I simply use the prestige class they presented in its entirety, or implement the healing into my own build? (PS I didn't include the Cauchemar idea because those things felt a bit too terrifying, to be completely honest.)



For the Paladin's mount you can do what they did in the 3rd Edition Ravenloft books. Any mount or familiar or animal companion becomes what they call a Dread mount, or Dread companion, or whatever.

In essence it's the same creature with a few changes. It's ethical alignment matches the character (Lawful/Chaotic), but it's moral alignment is always Evil. The mount has a telepathic link to it's owner and can sense the owner's hopes, fears, and desires...but the mount doesn't understand why the owner should repress herself. So what happens is you have an evil mount that serves the Paladin in ways that the Paladin might not like, but the mount is just trying it's best to please the Paladin.

I'll suggest it to the paladin, but I think she'd prefer the idea of a reformed mount a bit more, honestly.

[Darrin]

I actually tried my own hand at the Nightmare Prestige Class, but judging by yours, I probably way overpowered it.


As a DM, my biggest concern with the nightmare is the concealment and the at-will astral projection. Etherealness, even though it's a 9th level at-will spell, shouldn't be too much of a headache... if the PC uses it, they essentially take themselves out of most fights, since ethereal creatures generally can't affect the material plane. Physical barriers such as walls, mountains, etc. become almost meaningless, but I can still screw with the PC with force effects, ethereal filchers/marauders, ether cyclones, ghosts, etc.

It's not clear from the description but the nightmare's Smoke (Su) effect sounds like it surrounds the nightmare with at least 10' of smoke on all sides (a 30' x 30' cloud). This means while mounted, the paladin would have total concealment at all times (50% miss chance, can't be targeted directly) to all ranged attacks, and 20% concealment against most melee attacks. And the cone of choking smoke isn't something the nightmare does instead of attacking with its hooves/bite, it gets to do it every round as a free action. As an area effect, there might be "friendly fire" issues.

Astral projection at-will is a problem because of the "dupe" trick: The spell projects the caster and his buddies into the astral plane, but from there they can travel back to the material plane, at which point physical duplicates are created of their bodies and all of their equipment, including magic items. So any magic items with disposable/dischargeable effects (potions, wands, staves, candle of invocation, ring of wishes, etc.) can be used without expending the original item. In addition to an infinite supply of duplicate equipment, the duration to astral projection is open-ended: it lasts as long as you want it to. I've seen some high-level optimizers suggest that you can use astral projection to lock up your real body somewhere safe and just go adventuring with your astral duplicates relatively risk-free (I forget exactly how the silver cord risk was dealt with).

It also occurred to me yesterday that rather than sweat over balancing a homebrew PrC, you can probably satisfy the paladin's nightmare fetish with a 16500 GP magic item: Figurine of Wondrous Power, Ivory Goats. The Goat of Travail has the same stats as a nightmare, except it also has horns for a double-gore attack. So if it's overpowered, it's a headache you only have to deal with once a month for 12 hours.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Yeah, those other powers are the parts that bother me the worst. I think I'm going to give the nightmare the paladin bonuses, but give it its powers by level of prestige class as presented in the prestige class given above. I'm replacing the things dealing with "movement+attacks" with the things dealing with fiend conversion, actually. I think it'll end up working well. And then they can power their mount as much as they want.

If it turns out too powerful we'll figure things out.