Can a class use 2 or more ACF and other questions

[SoHardToRegiste]

By ACF I mean Alternative Class Features such as those listed in Complete Mage.

I really like the Focused Specialist ACF, which forces you to ban an additional spell school but lets you memorize more spells per day.

I also like the Eidetic Spellcaster ACF from a certain issue of Dragon Magazine. With Eidetic Spellcaster, you lose:
-Scribe Scroll feat
-Familiar

But you no longer require a spellbook to memorize spells, everything is done from memory.

So my first question is, is it possible to create a Wizard character with both the Focused Specialist and Eidetic Spellcaster ACFs ?

For my second question, what does the acronym SAD mean in this context:


Also, consider using Beguiler (PHBII) as your spontaneous side. Its Int based (making you SAD), give tons of nice skills and trapfinding, and automatically knows all spells on its list.

original discussion:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126505

Acronyms everywhere, it's driving me crazy hehe.

And for my final question, I'm just trying to gauge the true power of the Wish spell. According to the spell description, Wish can:


# Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

Let's say Szass Tam knows that Spider-man is Peter Parker from New York on planet Earth. Can he Wish for Peter Parker to be transported in front of him? Peter is from another plane/alternate dimension/alternate universe.

The Wish entry also says:


# Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Wish

Now, Spider-man was True Neutral to start with, but after his neutrality indirectly led to the death of his aunt and uncle, he became Lawful Good.

Can Szass Tam successfully cast the following spells:
Wish 1: Recreate the body of his aunt
Wish 2: Transport body in front of him
Wish 3: Resurrect aunt

Make the same 3 Wishes to resurrect Spider-man's uncle.

Then Szass Tam can bargain with Spider-man to gain his service temporarily (to catch rebels or whatever) and as reward at the end Spider-man and his family will be Wished transported back to where they belong.

So can Wish do all of that? If so then it's way too powerful. I mean transporting people across universes instantly, they can't even do that in Star Trek.

If Wish can do all of that, what would stop Szass Tam from wishing that Obould be transported in front of him? He can then hold him as hostage.

[true_shinken]

Now, Spider-man was True Neutral to start with, but after his neutrality indirectly led to the death of his aunt and uncle, he became Lawful Good.

I don't care much about the rest of your post, but unless Peter is under really bad writers, he is textbook Neutral Good througout his career. The thing about not catching the thief was just a slip - one act does not represent your alignment.

[DragonOfLies]

SAD means single ability dependent. For example, Wizards only really need a high INT score to be good at what they do. Monks on the other hand are very MAD (multiple ability dependent) to the extent that they need too many high ability scores.

Might try and get back to you on the rest soon :)

Edit: Also, you can take multiple ACF's, but only if they don't overlap. You couldn't for example take two ACF's that both require giving up a Wizard's familiar.

Edit 2: The ability to teleport spiderman to you in a universe where there is no spiderman is entirely DM-dependent. It depends on his/her view of the setting; it might be that the setting allows for the existence of alternative realities and other dimensions/universes, but it's by no means certain. Wish is a 9th level spell though, so you can expect it to be overpowered.

[olentu]

I can recall no reason why one could not take more than one alternate class feature so long as they do not replace the same class feature.

[Safety Sword]

So can Wish do all of that? If so then it's way too powerful. I mean transporting people across universes instantly, they can't even do that in Star Trek.

Small point. D&D isn't Star Trek. That is all.

[Runestar]

I believe you can take as many ACFs as you want, so long as they don't clash. For example, you shouldn't be able to take 2 abilities which require you to give up familiar.

The 2nd part reminds me of this old nodwick strip where Lolth tries to court Spiderman. :smallbiggrin:

[Baveboi]

Wish is GRANTED, take that in mind. When you Wish for something, you Wish it of your DM, of your Game, of said game Gods and/or powers.

I will use your example because I LIKE Szass Tam. He wishes for, let's say, Elminster to pop up at his state. He gets his wish for a 5.000 xp (or one charge of his Ring of Three Wishes).
The problem is (and this is the part where the groups break down and DM has the ultimate call), powerful divinations spells forewarned Elminster that he's gonna end up in Szass' presence soon. Now you don't get a defenseless NPC to make hostage of, but a VERY angry and very powerfully armed and prepared NPC to teach you a lesson, be you Szass Tam or a random PC.

Do not, I repeat, do not EVER Wish for something you don't want. If you want your enemy to pop up in your house than you can't have nice things. Period.

Also, DM has always the last call on Wishes, be it rule or not. I once saw a group destroy an entire country's economy by wishing for gold... They were jailed in Spell-Hold AI. for good measure.

[SoHardToRegiste]

I don't care much about the rest of your post, but unless Peter is under really bad writers, he is textbook Neutral Good througout his career. The thing about not catching the thief was just a slip - one act does not represent your alignment.

I don't care much for your tone, but before you imply that the writers at Marvel were bad, perhaps you should look at the whole picture.

Peter Parker was just a young man when he was bit by a radioactive spider. After gaining special powers, he donned a disguise and became a prize fighter. Not once did he use his powers to help others until tragedy struck near to him.

I still remember the episode where the criminal was escaping the crime scene with a security guard yelling for Spider-man to stop him. Spider-man was counting his money and just said something like "not my problem man."

Afterward it turned out that the same criminal later killed Peter's family. After which Peter realized that with great powers comes great responsibilities.

There was a clear change in Peter's moral values and behavior after that incident, with Peter risking his life for the greater good. For that reason, I believe an alignment change is justified.

Now, if you simply argued that the later Spider-man is Neutral Good rather than Lawful Good, I wouldn't have minded. Some people at Dicefreaks list Spider-man as Chaotic Good. I just wrote him down as Lawful Good in the spur of the moment.

But I find your use of a mocking and lecturing tone when you don't even have a full grasp of the character's background to be funny.

[SoHardToRegiste]

Wish is GRANTED, take that in mind. When you Wish for something, you Wish it of your DM, of your Game, of said game Gods and/or powers.

I will use your example because I LIKE Szass Tam. He wishes for, let's say, Elminster to pop up at his state. He gets his wish for a 5.000 xp (or one charge of his Ring of Three Wishes).
The problem is (and this is the part where the groups break down and DM has the ultimate call), powerful divinations spells forewarned Elminster that he's gonna end up in Szass' presence soon. Now you don't get a defenseless NPC to make hostage of, but a VERY angry and very powerfully armed and prepared NPC to teach you a lesson, be you Szass Tam or a random PC.

Do not, I repeat, do not EVER Wish for something you don't want. If you want your enemy to pop up in your house than you can't have nice things. Period.

Also, DM has always the last call on Wishes, be it rule or not. I once saw a group destroy an entire country's economy by wishing for gold... They were jailed in Spell-Hold AI. for good measure.

Haha thanks for offering a practical answer to my query. Poor adventurers, wishing for gold and ending up in jail. Well at least it's a good learning experience for them. They are now fully prepared should they ever need to bargain with a Baatezu.

I like Szass Tam too, although I admit that I do not know him as well as you do. I haven't had the chance to read books or played a campaign featuring him.

I think his name has a nice ring, I really like the flavor of the Thay state, and I found this write-up featuring Larloch and Szass Tam to be really cool.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/plots-places/128345-larloch-shadowking-last-true-arcanist.html

[SoHardToRegiste]

I believe you can take as many ACFs as you want, so long as they don't clash. For example, you shouldn't be able to take 2 abilities which require you to give up familiar.

The 2nd part reminds me of this old nodwick strip where Lolth tries to court Spiderman. :smallbiggrin:

Ooohh, now that is a comic strip I need to look up! I think Lolth would be too much for Spidey to handle :D

[KillianHawkeye]

You might try editing your posts so you don't post three times in a row. Just a suggestion.

And yes, Wish is very powerful.

[SoHardToRegiste]

SAD means single ability dependent. For example, Wizards only really need a high INT score to be good at what they do. Monks on the other hand are very MAD (multiple ability dependent) to the extent that they need too many high ability scores.

Might try and get back to you on the rest soon :)

Edit: Also, you can take multiple ACF's, but only if they don't overlap. You couldn't for example take two ACF's that both require giving up a Wizard's familiar.

Edit 2: The ability to teleport spiderman to you in a universe where there is no spiderman is entirely DM-dependent. It depends on his/her view of the setting; it might be that the setting allows for the existence of alternative realities and other dimensions/universes, but it's by no means certain. Wish is a 9th level spell though, so you can expect it to be overpowered.

Thanks for the detailed response! You make a good point, I haven't pondered the fact that some settings might include alternate universes and some don't. This makes me realize that while Sigil has portals leading to every plane of existence, it may not have any portals leading to alternate universes. There might be no Spider-man in a certain DM's setting, heck there might not even be a Norse pantheon with Thor and the likes.


I can recall no reason why one could not take more than one alternate class feature so long as they do not replace the same class feature.

Alright, thanks for the answer. With so many people in agreement, I take this answer as fact.

EDIT:
To KillianHawkeye: Good point. I'll remember that for next time. I just thought it was courteous to respond to everyone and it was easier to quote each post rather than edit the forum code. Next time it will be one super long post with all the quotes I promise :biggrin:


Small point. D&D isn't Star Trek. That is all.

Yes, D&D is more fun than Star Trek :smallsmile:

[LibraryOgre]

So my first question is, is it possible to create a Wizard character with both the Focused Specialist and Eidetic Spellcaster ACFs ?

I do not see an issue, so long as the ACFs each take away different things.

[Godskook]

I don't care much about the rest of your post, but unless Peter is under really bad writers, he is textbook Neutral Good througout his career. The thing about not catching the thief was just a slip - one act does not represent your alignment.

While I 90% agree with you, it wasn't a 'slip'. Peter's fairly reliable in that he forgets himself whenever he gets a power-surge with no apparent costs associated with it. (Remember Venom?) Its a backlash of his underdog status being removed, temprorarily.

Also, while his morality was always Good, I find it harder than you to classify his ethical alignment. I could see arguments going several ways.


I can recall no reason why one could not take more than one alternate class feature so long as they do not replace the same class feature.

+1 on this.

[Keld Denar]

original discussion:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126505

Is it bad that I recognized that quote as mine before even following the link, and worse yet that I remember the exact thread I posted it in?

/sigh

[Dusk Eclipse]

Is it bad that I recognized that quote as mine before even following the link, and worse yet that I remember the exact thread I posted it in?

/sigh

Considering that quote is more than a year old, I would say yes.

Edit: forgot to add the :smalltongue:

[SoHardToRegiste]

Is it bad that I recognized that quote as mine before even following the link, and worse yet that I remember the exact thread I posted it in?

/sigh

If by bad you mean the African American Vernacular English bad, then I agree :D

[KillianHawkeye]

To KillianHawkeye: Good point. I'll remember that for next time. I just thought it was courteous to respond to everyone and it was easier to quote each post rather than edit the forum code. Next time it will be one super long post with all the quotes I promise :biggrin:

The forum includes support for multiquote, allowing you to quote all the posts you want at once without having to do a lot of copy & paste or back editing. Just use the little "quotation mark plus sign" icons next to the quote button.

[Psyren]

I do not see an issue, so long as the ACFs each take away different things.

This is the way I do it too. For example, a Soulknife can take both of the Mind's Eye ACFs - trading Psychic Strike for feats, and trading Wild Talent for Hidden Talent, respectively - because they give up different things.

[absolmorph]

If so then it's way too powerful. I mean transporting people across universes instantly, they can't even do that in Star Trek.
A wizard did it. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt)
With a level 9 spell.
Other level 9 spells have effects including the following: speeding you up so that the rest of the word appears to stop for 6-30 seconds; transforming into any creature you know of, yes, even that one; connecting two planes, and possibly calling a denizen of the other plane; removing all magical effects on a person or item, completely; creating a temporary, 5 foot radius circle that teleports any creature that activates it to anywhere on the same plane.
Level 9 spells are powerful.

Oh, and I nearly forgot the spell that allows you to create a plane of your own! Yes, Genesis! Give your claims of godhood even more proof to back it up!

[Lans]

I believe you can take as many ACFs as you want, so long as they don't clash. For example, you shouldn't be able to take 2 abilities which require you to give up familiar.


I think you can do that by RAW actually. The wording on many of the abilities is worded, not as a trade, but in a "you don't get X on level Y" type of thing. So a sneak attack variant fighter could grab the ACFs from complete champion. The penalty is that he doesn't get the feat on the even level. Which he wouldn't of gotten anyway.

I don't think any DM would consistently allow it, but I think its RAW.