Familiars and prestige classes

[Shecky]

Want to make sure I'm reading descriptions right. In some caster prestige classes (e.g., Arcane Trickster and Unseen Seer), each level advance gives "+1 level of existing class", with the caveat of "He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting."

Am I right in presuming that RAW means that a familiar would no longer advance with the master in class-related abilities once he started in such a prestige class?

[Kylarra]

That'd be correct. The usual thing to do [if you want a familiar] is trade off your familiar for an ACF and then take the Obtain Familiar feat which stacks all arcane casting classes to determine its abilities.

[Shecky]

Damn. That's what I was afraid of. *sigh* Gonna have to try to talk my DM into letting Unseen Seer stack with Wizard. Shouldn't be too hard, though, as 1) nothing in the US description says anything about it being a class that excludes familiars (I know, it's not RAW, but it bears consideration in the next point) and 2) the Familiar text does say that eligible classes do stack. I'd think that Wiz + US would reasonably stack as well as Wiz + Druid, for example, which is an explicitly acceptable combo.

D'you think this is reasonable enough to work - i.e., if you were my DM, would you allow it?

[MeeposFire]

Frankly in terms of power familiars for wizard characters are not powerful so I may allow just for that, but your way to rationalize it would have no bearing. It would also weaken some other prestige classes that grant familiar progression like alienist (though it is not that great to begin with).

I agree with the above take the obtain familiar feat. You will then have full familiar abilities even if you take prestige classes as long as they are arcane in general.

This would also let you get alternate abilities such as better meta magic with sorcerers.

[The Glyphstone]

Familiars can be very handy, though, in terms of Aid Another for crucial skill checks (they have all your skill ranks for free), and once you have Imbue With Spell Ability, they become the lowest-level way to break the action economy in core.

Also, insert Lightning Warrior joke about power and flavor here.

[Psyren]

D'you think this is reasonable enough to work - i.e., if you were my DM, would you allow it?

Didn't you read the rest of Kylarra's post? There's a feat that makes your familiar stack no matter which PrC you go into.

[John Campbell]

Most of the familiar's abilities scale with the master's levels regardless of whether those levels actually grant familiar progression or not. The familiar still gets half your hit points, with virtual HD equal to your own, your BAB, your base saves, and all your skill ranks, regardless of whether you got those from Wizard, Abjurant Champion, or Barbarian.

And they get most of their other useful abilities before most builds will qualify to prestige out of Wizard/Sorcerer anyway. Improved Evasion, Share Spells, and Empathic Link come in immediately, Deliver Touch Spells at Wizard 3, and Speak With Master at Wizard 5. Speak With Animals isn't terribly useful, especially since there's nothing compelling the animals to listen, provide useful information, obey instructions, or even not attempt to eat your familiar. The SR is uselessly low, even with full Wizard progression. The scrying is occasionally handy, but it's only 1/day, and making effective use of it requires you to send your familiar into places where you wouldn't go. The increased Int is also fairly useless, especially since the familiar's virtual HD don't come with actual skill ranks, but it does get to share yours (though I did once use it to make my DM finally stop arguing about what my familiar did and did not understand by pointing out that my weasel was smarter than his DMPC).

Which just leaves the natural armor bonus, but while that's nice, it's not enough to keep your familiar from getting hit with 19 out of 20 attacks if you send it into a mid-to-high-level fight without a load of magical bling or shared defensive spells.

So, basically, it's no big deal if you don't get full familiar progression... you get practically everything you really want from it anyway. On the flip side, if you want to try to talk your DM into allowing it to progress with spellcasting rather than strictly with base-class levels, it's not going to break anything. My group does that as a house rule, and the only real effect it's had is my being able to tell the DM that my weasel was smarter than his paladin.

Though, if I were your DM, I'd look a lot more kindly on a open proposal for a new house rule based on, "It'd make more sense and isn't going to break anything," than on an attempt to twist the rules into saying what you want when it's obviously not what they actually say.

[Shecky]

Didn't you read the rest of Kylarra's post? There's a feat that makes your familiar stack no matter which PrC you go into.

I don't exactly have a mountain of feats to give away.

[Shecky]

Most of the familiar's abilities scale with the master's levels regardless of whether those levels actually grant familiar progression or not. The familiar still gets half your hit points, with virtual HD equal to your own, your BAB, your base saves, and all your skill ranks, regardless of whether you got those from Wizard, Abjurant Champion, or Barbarian.

And they get most of their other useful abilities before most builds will qualify to prestige out of Wizard/Sorcerer anyway. Improved Evasion, Share Spells, and Empathic Link come in immediately, Deliver Touch Spells at Wizard 3, and Speak With Master at Wizard 5. Speak With Animals isn't terribly useful, especially since there's nothing compelling the animals to listen, provide useful information, obey instructions, or even not attempt to eat your familiar. The SR is uselessly low, even with full Wizard progression. The scrying is occasionally handy, but it's only 1/day, and making effective use of it requires you to send your familiar into places where you wouldn't go. The increased Int is also fairly useless, especially since the familiar's virtual HD don't come with actual skill ranks, but it does get to share yours (though I did once use it to make my DM finally stop arguing about what my familiar did and did not understand by pointing out that my weasel was smarter than his DMPC).

Which just leaves the natural armor bonus, but while that's nice, it's not enough to keep your familiar from getting hit with 19 out of 20 attacks if you send it into a mid-to-high-level fight without a load of magical bling or shared defensive spells.

So, basically, it's no big deal if you don't get full familiar progression... you get practically everything you really want from it anyway. On the flip side, if you want to try to talk your DM into allowing it to progress with spellcasting rather than strictly with base-class levels, it's not going to break anything. My group does that as a house rule, and the only real effect it's had is my being able to tell the DM that my weasel was smarter than his paladin.

Though, if I were your DM, I'd look a lot more kindly on a open proposal for a new house rule based on, "It'd make more sense and isn't going to break anything," than on an attempt to twist the rules into saying what you want when it's obviously not what they actually say.

That last is pretty much what I meant; "making more sense" is kind of in line with what the rules never actually come out and say.

I was already planning on a familiar for extra roguely duties, as the char is (well, will be) Rog/Wiz/Unseen Seer; every little bit of added dimension in sneaky-type stuff is always welcome. I don't intend for the little guy to be in the middle of brawls. And I'm not going for balls-to-the-wall optimization, so I'm not looking for cheese, just a little help from the familiar. (Plus, the idea of a familiar that's smarter than some of the PCs has too much potential for comedy to waste. :smallbiggrin: )

[KillianHawkeye]

I'd think that Wiz + US would reasonably stack as well as Wiz + Druid, for example, which is an explicitly acceptable combo.

Since when does multiclassing Druid advance your familiar?? :smallconfused:

I mean, sure there's that prestige class that allows you to combine your familiar and your animal companion on a single creature, but straight Wizard/Druid won't help you at all.

[Psyren]

I don't exactly have a mountain of feats to give away.

Not "a mountain." One. You only need it once, no matter how many PrCs you take.

[Shecky]

Since when does multiclassing Druid advance your familiar?? :smallconfused:

I mean, sure there's that prestige class that allows you to combine your familiar and your animal companion on a single creature, but straight Wizard/Druid won't help you at all.

Whoops, sorry, my bad; I have no idea why I keep conflating "familiar" with "animal companion". Worse, I've done that for YEARS. I'm apparently serving stupid-marinated fillet of tardbeast with dumbsauce. *embarrassed*

[Shecky]

Not "a mountain." One. You only need it once, no matter how many PrCs you take.

It's just an expression, meant to make it clear that I don't really have any feats to spare. One is one more than I can afford to let go.

[Psyren]

It's just an expression, meant to make it clear that I don't really have any feats to spare. One is one more than I can afford to let go.

Then you gotta ask yourself; how bad do you want a full familiar?
Unless your DM just lets you have it, in which case go nuts.

Have you tried asking for flaws?

[Shecky]

Then you gotta ask yourself; how bad do you want a full familiar?
Unless your DM just lets you have it, in which case go nuts.

Have you tried asking for flaws?

It's not a question of "how badly" I want it; it's a question of the familiar's progression making sense. Just seems a bit out of plumb for the familiar to stop advancing because you're taking a prestige class that's just a specialized extension of the base class, doesn't it?

As for flaws... hmm. That just might be the thing. I'll bounce it off him; he's a firm believer in balance, so getting a bonus by paying for it with a loss might appeal to him. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Last Laugh]

It's not a question of "how badly" I want it; it's a question of the familiar's progression making sense. Just seems a bit out of plumb for the familiar to stop advancing because you're taking a prestige class that's just a specialized extension of the base class, doesn't it?

As for flaws... hmm. That just might be the thing. I'll bounce it off him; he's a firm believer in balance, so getting a bonus by paying for it with a loss might appeal to him. Thanks for the suggestion!

Unseen seer is mostly a Superior version of the base class. All it loses is caster level in non divination spells and the fact that you could be taking incantrix levels. The divination loss is taken care of with Practiced Caster (wizard).

If it doesn't have familiar as a class feature then it doesn't get a familiar, call it balance. It's one of the wizards only 3 class features and many classes drop it, they still are way more powerful than wizard because they get real features, like archmage or fatespinner.

[Kylarra]

There is the debatably cheesy method of taking the flaw that trades out your familiar and using that feat to take obtain familiar. I'd let it fly since it's rather underpowered as far as feats and flaw usage go.

[Godskook]

There is the debatably cheesy method of taking the flaw that trades out your familiar and using that feat to take obtain familiar. I'd let it fly since it's rather underpowered as far as feats and flaw usage go.

There's no debate. Its an illegal move. Obtain Familiar isn't available till level 3, while the flaw is level 1 only.

[Kylarra]

There's no debate. Its an illegal move. Obtain Familiar isn't available till level 3, while the flaw is level 1 only.huh, so it is. Well then, I adjust my suggestion to using forsaken or whatever the flaw is to gain an early metamagic feat or whatever that you'd normally take at level 3 and then use level 3 feat for obtain familiar. :smalltongue:

[Reynard]

huh, so it is. Well then, I adjust my suggestion to using forsaken or whatever the flaw is to gain an early metamagic feat or whatever that you'd normally take at level 3 and then use level 3 feat for obtain familiar. :smalltongue:

Rather than the Flaw, trade your Familiar at 1st for one of the Wizard Immediate Magic ACFs in the second PHB.

[Psyren]

Rather than the Flaw, trade your Familiar at 1st for one of the Wizard Immediate Magic ACFs in the second PHB.

Or do both - flaws are usually a net benefit, so take them if allowed.

[Reynard]

Or do both - flaws are usually a net benefit, so take them if allowed.

...Trade away your familiar... twice?

[Shecky]

Rather than the Flaw, trade your Familiar at 1st for one of the Wizard Immediate Magic ACFs in the second PHB.

Not looking to ultimaxoptimizecheesify, just to make it work with the story and the character's background. In other words, keeping the familiar; I only wanted to know how best to justify the familiar's not becoming more of a liability than an asset at higher levels. We're more about the play and less about the numbers - the numbers just need to make sense in their context.

[Kylarra]

Rather than the Flaw, trade your Familiar at 1st for one of the Wizard Immediate Magic ACFs in the second PHB.Well yes, I suggested going for the ACF first, it's simply after OP talked about being feat starved to begin with that I suggested the flaw.

[Psyren]

...Trade away your familiar... twice?

There are other flaws. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingcharacters/characterflaws.htm)

[Shecky]

Well yes, I suggested going for the ACF first, it's simply after OP talked about being feat starved to begin with that I suggested the flaw.

Heh. I've been so used for so long to playing feat-monkey fighters that I feel poor in other classes. :smallwink: