a crafting question

[big teej]

greetings playgrounders, I've a question on the craft skill.


let us assume you are creating a new character, and this new character has max ranks in both craft (armor) and craft (weapons)

and that the character is a dwarf.

so we'll call it +6 to craft (4 ranks + 2 racial)

with this, you can take 10 on the craft check and net anything with an AC bonus of 6 or less.

so, assuming 300 starting gold (what my group uses)

could you not make your own stuff at creation for 1/3 cost?

or is that out of bounds? (either officially, by RAW/erratta, or just bad form?)

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, it depends on how many years of your life the character is dedicating to crafting these things... AND if they are trying to make it masterwork, too.

The crafting rules are really really badly written... and killing 8 ranks on craft in anything but an Artificer is generally a realllyyy bad idea.

If you want to craft, play an artificer, and use your massive spell availability to stack major amounts of skill spells, to do this sort of thing, and get crafting times to be 'not hideously long'.

[big teej]

Well, it depends on how many years of your life the character is dedicating to crafting these things... AND if they are trying to make it masterwork, too.

The crafting rules are really really badly written... and killing 8 ranks on craft in anything but an Artificer is generally a realllyyy bad idea.

If you want to craft, play an artificer, and use your massive spell availability to stack major amounts of skill spells, to do this sort of thing, and get crafting times to be 'not hideously long'.

anything we don't have in hardcopy is auto-banned
we lack any eberron resources.

lets assume a dwarven that has grown up the son of a smith, so the time is taken up in the 60 years before you can play.

but you still pay for it out of the starting gold.

so back to the question
can you do it?

not "can it be done better"
simply "can"

[Gavinfoxx]

so back to the question
can you do it?

not "can it be done better"
simply "can"

Yes, you should be able to get items at 1/3rd the price by crafting them yourself.

If you give me a list of books that your group has access to, I can figure out the best possible crafter.

Also, are you okay with using online resources and classes and online srd stuff?

[big teej]

Yes, you should be able to get items at 1/3rd the price by crafting them yourself.

If you give me a list of books that your group has access to, I can figure out the best possible crafter.

Also, are you okay with using online resources and classes and online srd stuff?

resources allowed (i.e. what we have)
the SRD (both the hypertext and the wiki)
a Knight PDF
DMG
PHB
BOVD
BOED
races of stone
A&EG
Masters of the wild
Cityscape
Dieties and Demigods

that should be everything.

I'm not so much going for 'a crafting character' so much as a character who can occaisionally outfit themselves (or the party) at a cheaper rate...

but for all I know that could be the same thing. (I was only shooting for weapons and armor however)

[Tyger]

resources allowed (i.e. what we have)
the SRD (both the hypertext and the wiki)
a Knight PDF
DMG
PHB
BOVD
BOED
races of stone
A&EG
Masters of the wild
Cityscape
Dieties and Demigods

that should be everything.

I'm not so much going for 'a crafting character' so much as a character who can occaisionally outfit themselves (or the party) at a cheaper rate...

but for all I know that could be the same thing. (I was only shooting for weapons and armor however)

As noted above, the crafting rules are notoriously bad for non-magically powered crafters. For example, to craft a basic suit of full plate armor will take (given a Craft skill of 6 plus a masterwork set of tools (giving you the ability to take 10 and not screw up the materials) about 46.3 weeks of time.

So yes, you could easily have that included in your background that you made your plate armor yourself. After all, 46 weeks is chump change to a dwarf. But if you want to "outfit [yourself and your party]" you are not going to be able to do it thusly. Not without some huge cheese.

Don't even ask what that suit of full plate takes if you make it out of mithril or adamantium.

The best way to do this is to get access to the Fabricate spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) as a Wizard, Sorcerer or other arcane caster. You still need the materials and some skill, but its an instant spell. So BAM! you've got a suit of full plate. Its one of the problems in the skill system that logically leads to things like the Tippyverse. Magic is just soooo much better at it than mundanes can ever be.

[Godskook]

The crafting rules are really really badly written... and killing 8 ranks on craft in anything but an Artificer is generally a realllyyy bad idea.

1.Crafting was around *AND* good before Artificer. They just get it as a class feature-TM

2.The craft skill is not that bad to work with, since a very small bonus and "Take 10" allows you to craft 90% of what a level 1 player could want. It also has little(but some) to do with Artificer, since magic items don't require craft checks and literally almost anybody can hit the DCs needed to craft() an item in a week by level 5 or so.

[Tyger]

2.The craft skill is not that bad to work with, since a very small bonus and "Take 10" allows you to craft 90% of what a level 1 player could want. It also has little(but some) to do with Artificer, since magic items don't require craft checks and literally almost anybody can hit the DCs needed to craft() an item in a week by level 5 or so.

Pray tell, how? Sure, for inexpensive items this'll work. A longsword or a shortsword, sure you can do those in a week. A greataxe'll probably take two. Armor gets nasty fast, as noted above. And heaven forbid you want to make any of them masterwork - that masterwork longsword will take you a month or more.

Yes, its feasible, but for an adventurer it really does come down to how much downtime your DM gives you. If you are routinely granted a month between adventures to while away your time, crafting can save a pretty penny in the early levels, and provide something for a non-caster to do in the off months. But if you have a DM that keeps you hopping, it just ain't going to happen.

TL;DR version, its usefulness depends largely on your campaign style.

[Urpriest]

Pray tell, how? Sure, for inexpensive items this'll work. A longsword or a shortsword, sure you can do those in a week. A greataxe'll probably take two. Armor gets nasty fast, as noted above. And heaven forbid you want to make any of them masterwork - that masterwork longsword will take you a month or more.

Yes, its feasible, but for an adventurer it really does come down to how much downtime your DM gives you. If you are routinely granted a month between adventures to while away your time, crafting can save a pretty penny in the early levels, and provide something for a non-caster to do in the off months. But if you have a DM that keeps you hopping, it just ain't going to happen.

TL;DR version, its usefulness depends largely on your campaign style.

Are you factoring in the ability to raise the DCs to shorten the crafting time? I haven't done the math, but this often gets neglected when people call crafting unwieldy.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Just don't Craft anything that costs 0 :smalltongue:


4. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.
Emphasis mine. Still, having a Divide By Zero Bomb is handy for those final battles :smallamused:

More seriously, I don't think it's a good idea to try to abuse your backstory for current rewards. It's much like trying to get a +5 Sword at level 1 because "it's my family's ancestral weapon;" you're using narration to buff your mechanics. Also consider when you became LV 1: how long did it take to get all your Skill Points in Craft? When did you get your "starting gold?" It's not at all clear that you have had your Starting Gold for the years of Crafting time needed to make all your stuff.

[Diarmuid]

Along OH's lines too, the 300gp for char creation is assumed to have been gathered over your entire life up until you decided to start adventuring. You didnt make the decision to be a warrior and then automagically get a check for 300gp to spend.

[Godskook]

Pray tell, how? Sure, for inexpensive items this'll work. A longsword or a shortsword, sure you can do those in a week. A greataxe'll probably take two. Armor gets nasty fast, as noted above. And heaven forbid you want to make any of them masterwork - that masterwork longsword will take you a month or more.

1.Longswords and greataxes take exactly the same amount of time.

2.By level 5 or so, you're sporting at least 8 ranks, and with a "take 10" can hit the DC for almost anything without even trying to optimize. Add a mwk tool, an int bonus, and another level or two as needed.

3.Assuming bare minimum of DC 18 and a take-10 of 18, we're crunching out 32.4 gp per week. At those speeds, only a Falchion or Greatsword among the SRD martial weapons would take 2+ weeks.

4.For Mwk, it'd take about 2 months, unless you're capable of boosting the DC to 30(which would cut it down to <4 weeks).


Yes, its feasible, but for an adventurer it really does come down to how much downtime your DM gives you. If you are routinely granted a month between adventures to while away your time, crafting can save a pretty penny in the early levels, and provide something for a non-caster to do in the off months. But if you have a DM that keeps you hopping, it just ain't going to happen.

TL;DR version, its usefulness depends largely on your campaign style.

"The craft skill is not that bad to work with" is what I said, so it sounds like we're roughly agreed.

[Tyger]

1.Longswords and greataxes take exactly the same amount of time.

Whoops! Meant to say Greatsword, not axe. My inner barbarian must be coming to the fore. :smallwink:


2.By level 5 or so, you're sporting at least 8 ranks, and with a "take 10" can hit the DC for almost anything without even trying to optimize. Add a mwk tool, an int bonus, and another level or two as needed.

3.Assuming bare minimum of DC 18 and a take-10 of 18, we're crunching out 32.4 gp per week. At those speeds, only a Falchion or Greatsword among the SRD martial weapons would take 2+ weeks.

4.For Mwk, it'd take about 2 months, unless you're capable of boosting the DC to 30(which would cut it down to <4 weeks).

"The craft skill is not that bad to work with" is what I said, so it sounds like we're roughly agreed.

Yup. Agree with all of the above.

[ericgrau]

Up to your DM. Often no. Some may allow a little. There's also the argument that other PCs would have spent the time you spent crafting for making money in other ways. Generally crafting is way too time consuming to be worth it, so it makes sense to disallow free money via such an inefficient method.

IMO craft, profession and perform do so little they could be removed from the game and changed into backstory with almost zero impact on gameplay. Bards may as well make level checks in place of perform because it's essential for them and almost worthless for anyone else.

[big teej]

I am now quite intrigued by the artificer class.....

also, given how the campaign has been run thus far, I believe I can squeeze in a weeks worth of work in here and there....


however, it would seem that my dreams of having battle plate much sooner are crumbling to dust :smallfrown:

if a long sword (100 gp if memory serves) takes 2 weeks....

mountian/battle plate (both up in the thousands) would take....

YEARS!!! :smalleek:

[Oracle_Hunter]

mountian/battle plate (both up in the thousands) would take....

YEARS!!! :smalleek:
Let's see...
To make Armor in one week you need to have a check equal to

10(Price)_____
10 + (AC Bonus)

If you don't finish in the first week, your progress each week is subtracted from the price for subsequent weeks. That makes the formula for Week #2

10(Price)_____ - CK(Week 1)
10 + (AC Bonus)

If you have a +8 to Craft and Take 10 every week, that gives you a CK of 18 every week - and therefore a linear reduction.

Assuming Full Plate (1.5K GP, +8 AC) your check needed to complete in one week is

10(1500)_____ = (approximately) 834
18

So you're never going to finish it in one week. At a steady check of 18, it will take you 47 weeks to finish a suit of Full Plate. Man, that sucks.

By comparison, Half-Plate (600 GP, +7 AC) only takes a score of 353 and, with a +8 to Craft, only 20 weeks.
Man, why does anyone bother to make Full Plate aside from Casters? :smallconfused:

EDIT: Actually, everyone should make Banded Mail. Base Check of 157 means you finish a suit every 9 weeks - and with a +1 DEX it's much better than Half-Plate.

Also, Longswords are only 15 GP and a DC 15. You can churn those out once per week with only a +5 Craft.

...and, ironically, it looks like making a MW Weapon only takes extra time if the base weapon takes more than 9 weeks to make. while a MW Armor only takes longer if the base armor is crafted in less than 5 weeks. Weird.

[Godskook]

if a long sword (100 gp if memory serves) takes 2 weeks....

Greatsword is 50gp and Falchion is 75gp, offhand, and those are the most expensive SRD martial weapons. A greatsword takes 1, 2 or 3 weeks depending on your check. If you can barely hit 15 on a "take 10", you get 3 weeks, but that's level 2 with a +0 int mod and no additional help. If you can squeek a 17(same ranks, mwk tools, so *REALLY* easy), its 2 weeks. If you can get the check up to 25, so that you can quicken the speed, you get it done in 1 week, thanks to the DC boost.

Looked up Longsword, and its 15gp, so we're talking 1 week, easy, if you can make the check at all.


mountian/battle plate (both up in the thousands) would take....

1.What level are you

2.What's the price and AC bonus on those?

3.Craft is something you can "Aid Another" on.

4.Assuming it is in the neighborhood of Full-Plate, price-wise(+8 AC, 1500gp), so if you can only hit the minimum check(DC 18), you get 32.4 gold per week. That's roughly 46 weeks. If you can make it DC 28, it'd take a max of 19.1 weeks(so probably, or you finish on day-crafting).

[Gavinfoxx]

resources allowed (i.e. what we have)
the SRD (both the hypertext and the wiki)
a Knight PDF
DMG
PHB
BOVD
BOED
races of stone
A&EG
Masters of the wild
Cityscape
Dieties and Demigods


Hmmm, lets seee.... that's an odd list, for sure... it looks like MOST of your craft stuff is going to be in the SRD / PHB... I'd say, you're going to want to be a Wizard, Human for the skill point bonus. Maybe start with a a level of Rogue or Bard or something, though this is suboptimal in general. You could maybe be a Cloistered Cleric, get the Artifice Domain (it's in the expanded domains section of the SRD), and get that Create Infusion to create super-potions? You could maybe get the Creation Domain as well. Also get Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magical Arms and Armor, and max your use magic device skill.... OR you could get the Magic Domain, to use wizard scrolls... Or you could get Leadership and get a Divine Bard as your crafting cohort. This would give you access to UMD the skill helping spells you DON'T have -- Alter Self, Heroism, Greater Heroism, mostly... YES Alter self *does* help with crafting skills, check the list here for forms that help with crafting:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0

Anyway, if you want a cohort or helper, take Leadership, and you want a *Divine Bard*. That will get you access to most of the skill helping stuff, they have good skills so they can aid another, that gets you access to a DIVINE Alter Self, which can then go into your Herbal Infusions, so you've got basically 'potions' of Alter Self, which is, generally, otherwise impossible... PLUS this gives you access to lots of normally arcane spells as divine spells, and a Divine Bard is a good party booster as well. Also, with Leadership, you could have your Divine Bard cohor just pick up the crafting feats that you DIDN'T get / aren't going to get, and help you craft stuff that way, with you paying the XP / GP / providing the spell most of the time, with him simply providing the feat, or occasionally the spell, but you are the main one that 'crafts' it. Tell your DM you want to ignore the 'attract followers' part of Leadership and just have the cohort, that will make him more likely to allow it. Also, you will want to eventually use the Spell Clock method of creating crafting XP via some (REFLAVORED!) methods from BoVD/BoED here:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7274.0

Most of the other tricks from that thread aren't doable, but the Ambrosia one is!