Domain Sorcerer: worth it?

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm attempting to build a character for a game that's going to start after Christmas. It's a little early, but the DM's kind of a powergamer, and I want to be prepared. The game starts at level 3. I was thinking of going Sorcerer, PrCing into Malconvoker at level 7, and then something else after the latter had maxxed out. However, there's a summoning Druid in the party, so I don't want to actually focus on summoning until just before I PrC, probably fluffing that some event or revelation has awakened this new side of my sorcerous powers.

I came across the Domain Sorcerer alternate class feature in Complete Champion (page 52), and am wondering if I should take this at level 5 to get the Summoning Domain. The way it's worded is kindof putting me off:


Your depth of belief allows you to channel divine power the way a cleric does. By doing so, you gain access to a single cleric domain.
Level: 5th.
Replaces: To gain this benefit, you do not learn a new 1st-level sorcerer spell and a new 2nd-level sorcerer spell at 5th level. From now on, you know one less sorcerer spell that you can cast at each subsequent level (not counting the domain spells from this alternative class feature).
Benefit: Choose one cleric domain. If you worship a specific deity, the domain you choose must be one to which your deity grants access. You gain the granted power of the chosen domain. In addition, you can cast one domain spell of each spell level available to you per day from that domain.
Unless I'm reading this wrong, this means that my spells known progression, taking Malconvoker into account, and including the known domain spell, would look like this:

{table=head]Level|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
1|4|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2|5|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4|6|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5|6|3+1|1+1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
6|6|3+1|1+1|0+1|-|-|-|-|-|-
7|6|3+1|1+1|0+1|-|-|-|-|-|-
8|6|4+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-|-|-|-
9|7|4+1|2+1|1+1|0+1|-|-|-|-|-
10|7|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-|-|-
11|8|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|0+1|-|-|-|-
12|8|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-|-
13|8|4+1|4+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|0+1|-|-|-
14|8|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-|-
15|8|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|0+1|-|-
16|8|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|-|-
17|8|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|1+1|0+1|-
18|8|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|2+1|1+1|-
19|8|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|2+1|1+1|0+1
20|8|4+1|4+1|3+1|3+1|3+1|2+1|2+1|2+1|1+1[/table]

While my spells per day progression would look like this:
{table=head]Level|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
1|5|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3|6|5|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4|6|6|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5|6|6+1|3+1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
6|6|6+1|4+1|3+1|-|-|-|-|-|-
7|6|6+1|4+1|3+1|-|-|-|-|-|-
8|6|6+1|5+1|4+1|-|-|-|-|-|-
9|6|6+1|6+1|5+1|3+1|-|-|-|-|-
10|6|6+1|6+1|6+1|4+1|-|-|-|-|-
11|6|6+1|6+1|6+1|5+1|3+1|-|-|-|-
12|6|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|4+1|-|-|-|-
13|6|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|5+1|3+1|-|-|-
14|6|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|4+1|-|-|-
15|6|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|5+1|3+1|-|-
16|6|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|4+1|-|-
17|6|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|5+1|3+1|-
18|6|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|4+1|-
19|6|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|5+1|3+1
20|6|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|6+1|4+1[/table]

This seems...less than worth it, particularly at level 6 and at odd levels starting with 7. At such levels, I would only get one casting of my highest-level spell per day, which seems an extraordinarily high price to pay for domain access. Am I wrong in my reading of the rule? If so, what would be the correct spells known and spells per day progression?

[gbprime]

Yeah, you essentially give up 1 spell per level to gain a domain which gives you a power and 1 spell per level. The trouble is, you can only cast each domain spell once per day, unlike the spells you're giving up.

The Arcane Disciple feat (Complete Divine) works much the same way.

The only way to come out ahead on the deal is to take a PrC that gives you a bonus domain, but then you have to choose those spells as spells known when you level up. it's generally not worth it for a sorcerer, but is for a beguiler or a warmage (since they can cast anything on their entire list, adding to the list is instant payola).

[Escheton]

Does not the summoning domain give augmented summoning without the prereq feat?
If so, worth it, you can spend more feats to boost your summoning.

[zimmerwald1915]

The domain granted power gives +2 CL to summoning spells.

[Escheton]

ouch, yeah, no.
That does nothing besides keep the critter there 2 rounds more.
Great at lvl 1-3. Pointless beyond lvl 5-6 or so.

So it's mostly fluff. And there are better ways of dealing with that.
Now I wonder which domain did grant the feat.
Ima go search for a summoners/druid handbook.

found one: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864066/Summoning_Handbook

[zimmerwald1915]

Thanks. The other nagging little issue, of course, is since there's a summoning druid, is it wise to focus on summoning as a sorcerer at all? I originally waded into the concept via my fondness of Planar Binding spells, and through the potential of patching the Sorcerer's small spell selection with monster monster and outsider SLAs. But I'd like to hear your recommendations for other ways to fill the arcane controller's role with a Sorcerer if you've got them.

For reference, here's the party:

Beguiler: skills, scouting, some facing
Druid: summoning, healing
Monk: unbuilt, unknown focus
Ranger: ranged
Sorcerer: me

If I don't go with summoning, I might go with a mix of debuffing and control in combat, with a little Divination and of course Teleport out of it. Is this wise?

[Escheton]

I think any summon feats/cl increases apply to both summon monster and summon undead.
Both have a few utility uses, but not by much.

The druid looks to be the main in combat last-ditch save healer and will prolly be summoning a tad less.

Getting a well rounded spell-list for a sorc might be difficult, but scrolls and wands help a lot so you can focus on the stuff you would cast on a regular basis.
So yeah, it's wise, but not easy to do well.

If you can give the current lvl, we could prolly make a good list that progresses nicely.

[zimmerwald1915]

I really despise scrolls and wands, and almost never purchase them unless I really really need to fill a spell niche or plot demands them. I'll take them if the DM dumps them in my lap or we go questing, but my money has better places to go.

We're ECL 3 at the moment. Here's my spell list as I planned it out for the Malconvoker build:

Level|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
3|Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation|Grease, Mage Armor, Magic Missile|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4|Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Grease, Mage Armor, Magic Missile|Wings of Cover|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5|Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Grease, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Glitterdust, Wings of Cover|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
6|Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Grease, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Glitterdust, Wings of Cover|Summon Monster III|-|-|-|-|-|-
7|Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Grease, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Glitterdust, Wings of Cover|Summon Monster III|-|-|-|-|-|-
8|Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Benign Transposition (replaces Mage Armor), Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter, Summon Monster I|Glitterdust, Summon Monster II, Wings of Cover|Greater Mage Armor, Summon Monster III|-|-|-|-|-|-
9|Amanuensis, Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Benign Transposition, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter, Summon Monster I|Glitterdust, Summon Monster II, Wings of Cover|Greater Mage Armor, Summon Monster III|Wings of Flurry|-|-|-|-|-
10|Amanuensis, Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Benign Transposition, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter, Summon Monster I|Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Summon Monster II, Wings of Cover|Greater Mage Armor, Haste, Summon Monster III|Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|-|-|-|-|-
11|Amanuensis, Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Benign Transposition, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter, Summon Monster I|Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Summon Monster II, Wings of Cover|Greater Mage Armor, Haste, Summon Monster III|Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|Teleport|-|-|-|-
12|Amanuensis, Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Benign Transposition, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter, Summon Monster I|Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Scare, Summon Monster II, Wings of Cover|Dispel Magic, Greater Mage Armor, Haste, Summon Monster III|Dimensional Anchor, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|Summon Monster V, Teleport|-|-|-|-
13|Amanuensis, Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Benign Transposition, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter, Summon Monster I|Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Scare, Summon Monster II, Wings of Cover|Dispel Magic, Greater Mage Armor, Haste, Summon Monster III|Dimensional Anchor, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|Summon Monster V, Teleport|Summon Monster VI|-|-|-
14|Amanuensis, Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Benign Transposition, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter, Summon Monster I|Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Scare, Summon Monster II, Wings of Cover|Greater Mage Armor, Haste, Magic Circle Against Evil (replaces Dispel Magic), Summon Monster III|Dimensional Anchor, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Summon Monster IV, Wings of Flurry|Lesser Planar Binding, Summon Monster V, Teleport|Greater Dispel Magic, Summon Monster VI|-|-|-
15|Amanuensis, Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Benign Transposition, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter, Summon Monster I|Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Scare, Summon Monster II, Wings of Cover|Greater Mage Armor, Haste, Magic Circle Against Evil, Summon Monster III|Dimensional Anchor, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Summon Monster IV, Wings of Flurry|Lesser Planar Binding, Summon Monster V, Teleport|Greater Dispel Magic, Summon Monster VI|Summon Monster VII|-|-
16|Amanuensis, Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Benign Transposition, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter, Summon Monster I|Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Scare, Summon Monster II, Wings of Cover|Greater Mage Armor, Haste, Magic Circle Against Evil, Summon Monster III|Bestow Curse (replaces Ruin Delver's Fortune), Dimensional Anchor, Summon Monster IV, Wings of Flurry|Dismissal, Teleport, Lesser Planar Binding, Summon Monster V|Greater Dispel Magic, Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI|Prismatic Spray, Summon Monster VII|-|-
17|Amanuensis, Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Benign Transposition, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter, Summon Monster I|Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Scare, Summon Monster II, Wings of Cover|Greater Mage Armor, Haste, Magic Circle Against Evil, Summon Monster III|Bestow Curse, Dimensional Anchor, Summon Monster IV, Wings of Flurry|Dismissal, Teleport, Lesser Planar Binding, Summon Monster V|Greater Dispel Magic, Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI|Prismatic Spray, Summon Monster VII|Summon Monster VIII|-
18|Amanuensis, Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Benign Transposition, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter, Summon Monster I|Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Scare, Summon Monster II, Wings of Cover|Greater Mage Armor, Haste, Magic Circle Against Evil, Summon Monster III|Bestow Curse, Dimensional Anchor, Summon Monster IV, Wings of Flurry|Draconic Polymorph (replaces Teleport), Dismissal, Lesser Planar Binding, Summon Monster V|Greater Dispel Magic, Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI|Greater Teleport, Prismatic Spray, Summon Monster VII|Greater Planar Binding, Summon Monster VIII|-
19|Amanuensis, Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Benign Transposition, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter, Summon Monster I|Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Scare, Summon Monster II, Wings of Cover|Greater Mage Armor, Haste, Magic Circle Against Evil, Summon Monster III|Bestow Curse, Dimensional Anchor, Summon Monster IV, Wings of Flurry|Draconic Polymorph, Dismissal, Lesser Planar Binding, Summon Monster V|Greater Dispel Magic, Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI|Greater Teleport, Prismatic Spray, Summon Monster VII|Greater Planar Binding, Summon Monster VIII|Timestop
20|Amanuensis, Caltrops, Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic|Benign Transposition, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter, Summon Monster I|Detect Thoughts, Glitterdust, Scare, Summon Monster II, Wings of Cover|Greater Mage Armor, Haste, Magic Circle Against Evil, Summon Monster III|Bestow Curse, Dimensional Anchor, Summon Monster IV, Wings of Flurry|Draconic Polymorph, Dismissal, Lesser Planar Binding, Summon Monster V|Greater Dispel Magic, Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI|Greater Teleport, Prismatic Spray, Summon Monster VII|Greater Planar Binding, Polymorph Any Object, Summon Monster VIII|Summon Monster IX, Timestop
I have an Artificer's Monocle so I don't have to learn Identify.

Here's what the Druid's character sheet says he has prepared:
0: Cure Minor Wounds*2, Detect Magic, Light
1: Spider Hand, Produce Flame, Winged Watcher
2: Blinding Spittle, Nature's Favor

He also has a wand of Summon Nature's Ally I

[HunterOfJello]

Sorcerers have a very short spell list. Giving up 1 spell known per level is a massive price to pay for any build. Even if I was a Sorcerer going into a Prestige Class like the Sand Shaper, I wouldn't give up a spell known per level for anything.

Sorcerers live or die based upon the very careful practice of cherry picking their spell list. This alternate class feature is a terrible choice because it slows down your spell progression and shortens your already minuscule spell list.

[Greenish]

Does not the summoning domain give augmented summoning without the prereq feat?Dragon Below domain (ECS) does.

Better option might be to pick it up with Planar Touchstone, though, and if my memory serves, Spell Focus: Conjuration is a requirement for Malconvoker.

[mootoall]

Honestly, Wizard is probably much better for a Malconvoker build. Trading your familiar is always nice, and when it gets you free Augment Summoning as a focused conjurer ... well, it's never a bad thing. However, if you're dead set on sorcerer, I'd just select the Summon Monster/Planar Whatever spells as spells known. I mean, it seems to me that's what you'd be doing by taking the domain anyway, minus shortening your spells/day.

[gbprime]

For reference, here's the party:

Beguiler: skills, scouting, some facing
Druid: summoning, healing
Monk: unbuilt, unknown focus
Ranger: ranged
Sorcerer: me

If I don't go with summoning, I might go with a mix of debuffing and control in combat, with a little Divination and of course Teleport out of it. Is this wise?

Debuffing definately looks like a good specialization. Your front line consists of a monk and whatever meat the druid summons, so they're gonna need some help. More meat won't help that, you need things like glitterdust, slow, confusion, evards, mass resist energy, mass fire shield, swift etherealness, etc.

[Fouredged Sword]

Or you could build the mailman and simply kill anything that looks like a real threat dead in a single round. He is a great direct damage caster. Your party looks like you may have problems in the killing things department.

[zimmerwald1915]

@ gbprime: the Beguiler's got half of that on his spell list, oddly enough.

[gbprime]

@ gbprime: the Beguiler's got half of that on his spell list, oddly enough.

INdeed he does. Add some clerical domains and he's ready to rock.

But while his skill monkey self has those buffs and debuffs to throw in combat, you need to find the ones he's missing and cover them.

[Escheton]

Thing is, thats just the sorta thing you would have scrolls/wands of. Which they can both use. And for the ones that are both on the sorc/wiz list and the cleric and/or druid list most of them can cast it.

Wand of summon 1? for what? 1 round?



The spell-list looks alright. Though I feel it's missing some punch. And burning victims, but thats just because I like pyromancer sorcs.

[gbprime]

Thing is, thats just the sorta thing you would have scrolls/wands of. Which they can both use. And for the ones that are both on the sorc/wiz list and the cleric and/or druid list most of them can cast it.

Sure, but why get a wand/scroll of something you're going to use all the time? That's just throwing money at the problem. You should be getting wands and scrolls of the things you only sometimes use, and spending your precious spell selections on things you'll do all the time.

[zimmerwald1915]

Or you could build the mailman and simply kill anything that looks like a real threat dead in a single round. He is a great direct damage caster. Your party looks like you may have problems in the killing things department.
Sorry, didn't see this. I was considering it until the DM banned incantatrix.

[zimmerwald1915]

Okay, so I've pretty much ditched the Malconvoker build, and thus even the slightest temptation to take the domain sorc ACF. I'm still worried about patching spell versitility, so I've looked into a build dipping Mindbender and then going Mage of the Arcane Order and Fatespinner. I need to spend two useless feats, but the DM has said I can take flaws to patch that. For spells, I'm thinking the following:

{table]Level|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
3|Benign Transposition, Grease, Magic Missile|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4|Benign Transposition, Grease, Magic Missile|Cloud of Bewilderment|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5|Benign Transposition, Charm Person, Grease, Magic Missile|Cloud of Bewilderment, Wings of Cover|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
6|Charm Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter (replaces Benign Transposition)|Cloud of Bewilderment, Wings of Cover|Dimension Step|-|-|-|-|-|-
7|Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Cloud of Bewilderment, Web, Wings of Cover|Dimension Step, Fly|-|-|-|-|-|-
8|Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Cloud of Bewilderment, Web, Wings of Cover|Dimension Step, Fly|Ruin Delver's Fortune|-|-|-|-|-
9|Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Cloud of Bewilderment, Mirror Image, Web, Wings of Cover|Alter Fortune, Dimension Step, Fly|Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|-|-|-|-|-
10|Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Cloud of Bewilderment, Mirror Image, Web, Wings of Cover|Alter Fortune, Fly, Great Thunderclap (replaces Dimension Step)|Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|Dimension Shuffle|-|-|-|-
11|Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Cloud of Bewilderment, Heroics, Mirror Image, Web, Wings of Cover|Alter Fortune, Fly, Great Thunderclap, Protection from Energy|Assay Spell Resistance, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|Arcane Fusion, Dimension Shuffle|-|-|-|-
12|Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Cloud of Bewilderment, Heroics, Mirror Image, Web, Wings of Cover|Alter Fortune, Fly, Great Thunderclap, Protection from Energy|Assay Spell Resistance, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|Arcane Fusion, Dimension Shuffle|Freezing Fog|-|-|-
13|Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Cloud of Bewilderment, Heroics, Mirror Image, Web, Wings of Cover|Alter Fortune, Fly, Great Thunderclap, Protection from Energy|Assay Spell Resistance, Polymorph, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|Arcane Fusion, Dimension Shuffle, Wall of Stone|Disintegrate, Freezing Fog|-|-|-
14|Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Cloud of Bewilderment, Heroics, Mirror Image, Web, Wings of Cover|Alter Fortune, Fly, Great Thunderclap, Protection from Energy|Assay Spell Resistance, Polymorph, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|Arcane Fusion, Dimension Shuffle, Wall of Stone|Disintegrate, Freezing Fog|Arcane Spellsurge|-|-
15|Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Cloud of Bewilderment, Heroics, Mirror Image, Web, Wings of Cover|Alter Fortune, Fly, Great Thunderclap, Protection from Energy|Assay Spell Resistance, Polymorph, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|Arcane Fusion, Dimension Shuffle, Telekinesis, Wall of Stone|Disintegrate, Freezing Fog, Superior Resistance|Arcane Spellsurge, Grasping Hand|-|-
16|Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Cloud of Bewilderment, Heroics, Mirror Image, Web, Wings of Cover|Alter Fortune, Fly, Great Thunderclap, Protection from Energy|Assay Spell Resistance, Polymorph, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|Arcane Fusion, Dimension Shuffle, Telekinesis, Wall of Stone|Disintegrate, Freezing Fog, Superior Resistance|Arcane Spellsurge, Grasping Hand|Polymorph Any Object|-
17|Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Cloud of Bewilderment, Heroics, Mirror Image, Web, Wings of Cover|Alter Fortune, Fly, Great Thunderclap, Protection from Energy|Assay Spell Resistance, Polymorph, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|Arcane Fusion, Dimension Shuffle, Telekinesis, Wall of Stone|Disintegrate, Freezing Fog, Superior Resistance|Arcane Spellsurge, Grasping Hand, Greater Arcane Sight|Irresistible Dance, Polymorph Any Object|-
18|Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Cloud of Bewilderment, Heroics, Mirror Image, Web, Wings of Cover|Fly, Great Thunderclap, Mass Snake's Swiftness (replaces Alter Fortune), Protection from Energy|Assay Spell Resistance, Polymorph, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|Arcane Fusion, Dimension Shuffle, Telekinesis, Wall of Stone|Disintegrate, Freezing Fog, Superior Resistance|Arcane Spellsurge, Grasping Hand, Greater Arcane Sight|Irresistible Dance, Polymorph Any Object|Shapechange
19|Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Cloud of Bewilderment, Heroics, Mirror Image, Web, Wings of Cover|Fly, Great Thunderclap, Mass Snake's Swiftness, Protection from Energy|Assay Spell Resistance, Polymorph, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|Arcane Fusion, Dimension Shuffle, Telekinesis, Wall of Stone|Disintegrate, Freezing Fog, Superior Resistance|Arcane Spellsurge, Grasping Hand, Greater Arcane Sight|Greater Arcane Fusion, Irresistible Dance, Polymorph Any Object|Shapechange, Timestop
20|Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter|Cloud of Bewilderment, Heroics, Mirror Image, Web, Wings of Cover|Fly, Great Thunderclap, Mass Snake's Swiftness, Protection from Energy|Assay Spell Resistance, Polymorph, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Wings of Flurry|Arcane Fusion, Dimension Shuffle, Telekinesis, Wall of Stone|Disintegrate, Freezing Fog, Superior Resistance|Arcane Spellsurge, Grasping Hand, Greater Arcane Sight|Greater Arcane Fusion, Irresistible Dance, Polymorph Any Object|Foresight, Shapechange, Timestop[/table]

[mint]

How does your DM feel about knowstones from Dragon?
Or Drake-Helmets from Eberron?
Rune-Staves?
I think there's a robe that gives you all summon monster spells as well.

I have some questions:

Alter Fortune is on the druid spell list as well and costs 200xp/cast. Are you sure?
Why are both your first choices for level 3 spells movement spells?
Why snake swiftness over haste?
Dispel Magic is supercute, y u haet?

[zimmerwald1915]

How does your DM feel about knowstones from Dragon?
It doesn't matter. I don't have the issue they're in available.


Or Drake-Helmets from Eberron?
Nor do I have any material relating to that campaign setting.


Rune-Staves?
They're fine and dandy, and way beyond my price range as a third-level characer.


Alter Fortune is on the druid spell list as well and costs 200xp/cast. Are you sure?
Hmm, missed it being on the Druid list. Thanks for the catch. Means I can get Mass Snake's Swiftness that much earlier.


Why are both your first choices for level 3 spells movement spells?
They do different things. Dimension Step moves people around. Fly lets people move themselves around, not to mention take on flying enemies.


Why snake swiftness over haste?
Haste is on the Beguiler spell list. So is Glitterdust. So is Charm Person, but I need that for Mindbender (and Sorc 6 is such a drag compared to Sorc 5/Mindbender 1).


Dispel Magic is supercute, y u haet?
And so is Dispel Magic, and Greater Dispel Magic.

[mootoall]

Knowstones, I believe, are also on Crystalkeep. And are well worth your money.

[Grelna the Blue]

This may be just me, but I don't see summoning as the best way for a sorcerer to focus, although having a few summoning spells in the mix is great.

As for the domain sorcerer thing, trading sorcerer spells known (castable many times per day) for domain spells that can only be cast 1/day and a domain power COULD be worth it, but only if you were planning to take metamagic feats that could allow you to better utilize those higher level spell slots that would otherwise be wasted AND you were getting spells that were substantially different/better than a sorcerer normally has access to.

[woodenbandman]

i think you should be a bufferor or blasteror. It seems like your party has pretty much everything else covered.

In either case, I'd say it definitely depends on which domain you get and what your focus is. And if your DM allows certain metamagical classes.

[DementedFellow]

Somewhat related, but could a Domain Sorcerer become a Walker in the Waste?

[dextercorvia]

I saw something about Runestaves being out of the price range of a lvl 3 sorcerer. I disagree. A custom Runestaff containing 3 first level spells costs 800 gp. (I realize that the recommendation is that the lowest level spell in a staff be at least 3rd level, but the example immediately following that as well as several of the 'official ones breaks that suggestion.)

And this can be made even cheaper by limiting the use to fewer than 3 times per day per spell. Having only a single use of each spell would cut the price in half (or you could have 7 first level spells in there for 800 gp).

[mint]

They do different things. Dimension Step moves people around. Fly lets people move themselves around, not to mention take on flying enemies.


What I meant was they seem like they solve the same type of problem. My thinking is that to warrant both, situations that call for one where the other simply will not do need to be significant.



Haste is on the Beguiler spell list. So is Glitterdust. So is Charm Person, but I need that for Mindbender (and Sorc 6 is such a drag compared to Sorc 5/Mindbender 1).


Oh, I thought haste and snakey snakey were mutually exclusive.
Then how about slow? If you take heighten to keep your early spells relevant it is pretty fantabolous.
Also, there is a feat in Lords of Madness, the aberration book, called [Mind Sight], it is for victory. If sauce is an issue it might be in the crystal keep feat index.



And so is Dispel Magic, and Greater Dispel Magic.

but its so kjooot!

[zimmerwald1915]

Then how about slow? If you take heighten to keep your early spells relevant it is pretty fantabolous.
Slow's on the Beguiler list as well, and he can spam spells over and over just as well as I can. There is literally no point in taking spells like this, Haste, Dispel Magic, etc. as spells known.

[mint]

I agree. Mostly. I want to make that clear. I am not trying to be obstinate.
But spells like say dispel magic or a spell like slow for a sorcerer who benefits greatly from heighten spell, there's merit to them in how the party can bring them to bear not just that they can do so.
Like action economy and redundancy.
I do see why you have all those teleportation spells now though.

Let's roll with your approach. Superior Resistance is on the druid spell list as well. But Protection from Energy, Wall of Stone is too and technically, druids can access irresistible dance through summon nature's ally. So maybe that's fine. This is relevant because these are among the spells you want to prepare as a druid either way.

I would suggest Greater Arcane Sight on a scroll. Or permanency? Does permanency work with the greater version?
You could also get True Casting from CM on a wand and ditch Assay Resistance.
If you drop Greater Arcane Sight, you could learn Radiant Assault for your level 7 spell instead. Compare it to Wings of Flurry and see if you want to unlearn Wings in favor of something else after Assault.

[Tyndmyr]

Sure, but why get a wand/scroll of something you're going to use all the time? That's just throwing money at the problem. You should be getting wands and scrolls of the things you only sometimes use, and spending your precious spell selections on things you'll do all the time.

Things you use all the time can be solved by Eternal Wands. 2/day uses for eternity. They are ideal for things you cast a routine amount of every day, like hour/level or 24 hr buffs. Then, you gain the benefit of the spell without a precious spell known being expended on it.

Regular wands are much better for things you use occasionally. Scrolls are ideal for high level spells and things you use...very rarely. Water breathing, for instance. Frigging amazingly useful in a very few situations, but most campaigns will only have those come up once or twice.

I wouldn't bother with domain sorc, personally. Doesn't mesh well with the sorc theme. If you want domains on an arcanist, go domain wizard. Domain wizard/sorc isn't actually a bad idea for Ultimate magus, either.

[zimmerwald1915]

I agree. Mostly. I want to make that clear. I am not trying to be obstinate.
I'm afraid I was obstinate myself. I'd had a bad day, involving a bank unexpectedly not having Saturday hours and an hour's wait for a bus. I apologize.


But spells like say dispel magic or a spell like slow for a sorcerer who benefits greatly from heighten spell, there's merit to them in how the party can bring them to bear not just that they can do so.
Like action economy and redundancy.
Slow doesn't stack with itself, and he can take Heighten Spell just as easily as I can.


Let's roll with your approach. Superior Resistance is on the druid spell list as well. But Protection from Energy, Wall of Stone is too and technically, druids can access irresistible dance through summon nature's ally. So maybe that's fine. This is relevant because these are among the spells you want to prepare as a druid either way.
The difference, I suppose, is that the druid cannot simply spam off his list. I could probably get away with outsourcing all these spells to the Druid, you're right. I could probably replace Protection from Energy with Magic Circle Against Evil, Wall of Stone with Cloudkill or Wall of Force, and Superior Resistance with Howling Chain. And I just might.


You could also get True Casting from CM on a wand and ditch Assay Resistance.
The point of Assay Resistance is that it's a swift action cast, while True Casting takes a round. I suppose that doesn't matter as much with Arcane Fusion, but it still matters.


If you drop Greater Arcane Sight, you could learn Radiant Assault for your level 7 spell instead. Compare it to Wings of Flurry and see if you want to unlearn Wings in favor of something else after Assault.
Isn't that only in Dragon Magazine? Besides, the point of Wings is uncapped damage scaling with level and force damage. If I were to replace it it would be with Maw of Chaos.

[mint]

I'm afraid I was obstinate myself. I'd had a bad day, involving a bank unexpectedly not having Saturday hours and an hour's wait for a bus. I apologize.

Slow doesn't stack with itself, and he can take Heighten Spell just as easily as I can.


No worries :D

You're right of course. But he does have a lot more spells known than you so he won't have the same incentive to take it. Final suggestion: ray of dizziness, is it on the beguiler list?



The point of Assay Resistance is that it's a swift action cast, while True Casting takes a round. I suppose that doesn't matter as much with Arcane Fusion, but it still matters.


Right, Assay is much better and totally worth it if you run into a lot of SR.



Isn't that only in Dragon Magazine? Besides, the point of Wings is uncapped damage scaling with level and force damage. If I were to replace it it would be with Maw of Chaos.
Nah, it is in the SpC. It does 3d6 (really 3d6), rounds of daze on a failed save. It dazzles for 1d6 if the target makes the save and it does untyped energy damage.
It also targets will and whereas WoF has range 30, Assault is Long.