(3.5e) Weighted Pommel

[Saitox]

Hello, I have a question regarding the weighted pommel for swords. My friends says that he would permanently gain the +1 to damage even if he was to remove it and I don't believe that is so. I might be wrong and so would just like to clarify. We're also discussing whether or not he could make continuous training to gain a +1 per month of training by increasing the pommels weight. Thoughts anyone?

[Kuma Kode]

Getting the bonus even if it's removed is simply a ridiculous thought. That's like taking the tires off your car but still expecting that you can drive around just fine. Ask him if he could still cut people even if he removed the blade.

Increasing the damage per month sounds rather abusive without any sort of limit or penalty, and also makes one wonder why professional soldiers aren't doing 1d8+74 damage per hit (6 years of training, +2 Strength).

[Scarlet-Devil]

Sorry to interject without anything helpful to say, but what's the sauce for this "weighted pommel"?

[Fenryr]

It's the one in the Paladin Quintessence? If no, my bad, I know no other pommel.

The pommel I said above requieres one month of training. If I were the DM, I would tell him "Each morning you wake up and train for a while. In a month you gain the +1."

Stack pommels? Hell no!

[dgnslyr]

I'm no expert on swords, but wouldn't a weighted pommel mess up the balance of the blade? If the pommel is weighted, the sword would be back-heavy, and I'd imagine that would be a bit awkward to use. I guess that's why you need the month of training to get the +1 damage.

[herrhauptmann]

Tell him 'no'.
If he wants to get some sort of bonus, have him train with weighted weapons (the way baseball players put weights on a bat). If he does it faithfully, for game after game, character month after character month, grant him some extra XP. Afterall, it's assumed that warrior types practice in their off time.

From a game mechanic perspective, he's trying to get extra bonuses. From a real world perspective, he'd actually fight worse using an unbalanced weapon. Especially during the several weeks he's trying to get used to the difference.


I'm no expert on swords, but wouldn't a weighted pommel mess up the balance of the blade? If the pommel is weighted, the sword would be back-heavy, and I'd imagine that would be a bit awkward to use. I guess that's why you need the month of training to get the +1 damage.

Pommels are essentially weights on the end of a sword. One of their purposes, is to balance the blade. Now an excessively weighted pommel would also make the sword unbalanced, but opposite from a pommel that was too light.
Getting extra damage from a heavier weapon, that works if the entire thing gets heavier, not just the 5 ounce mass below the heel of your hand. That's why Magic of Faerun introduced [heavy] weapons.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm no expert on swords, but wouldn't a weighted pommel mess up the balance of the blade? If the pommel is weighted, the sword would be back-heavy, and I'd imagine that would be a bit awkward to use. I guess that's why you need the month of training to get the +1 damage.

It's incredibly awkward. Speaking as someone who actually has used one before, it has one "advantage": your first swing is slightly faster than a normal swing. But your next swing is awkward as all get out, as you are attempting to correct the overbalancing and massive weight on the end of your sword. So you get one swing. If you miss, you're dead. :smalltongue:

[Saitox]

Thanks for the clarification. I just wanted to make sure that there wasn't some loophole or clerical error(heh.....cleric) when I denied him the stack and permenency. I tend to be fairly lenient in what I usually let them get away with, unless they roll a 1.......I love being DM.

[Shademan]

the way I solved it was making a new system for stuff like that:
balanced weapon(+300g) +1 to hit
heavy weapon (+300g) +1 to damage
masterwork weapon (500g)+1 to hit and damage

[Mastikator]

Being granted a small portion of exp would make more sense.

[Psyx]

'No, chance.' to both questions.

The first is worth laughing in his face over, because it's absurd.
The second is just abusive. 'I take a year off and do +12 damage'. Better still: I go to a plane where no relative time passes in the prime material and practice for 100 years. I now do +1200 damage.



Being granted a small portion of exp would make more sense.

But opens floodgates. There is no reason one need a heavy pommel in order to train. Other characters could also start using spare time to train and demand extra XP each game-day.

Personally, I fail to see how a heavier pommel is going to give any advantage. Pommels already ARE weights: That's kind of their point. Heavier ones aren't going to help in any way. What's the source for this insane idea?

[Barstro]

I'm no expert on swords, but wouldn't a weighted pommel mess up the balance of the blade? If the pommel is weighted, the sword would be back-heavy, and I'd imagine that would be a bit awkward to use. I guess that's why you need the month of training to get the +1 damage.

That is exactly why it would take a month a training; you need to alter your muscle memory.

It is the added weight that allows this +1. Remove the weight and you lose the whole basis for the bonus.

As for stacking; you could houserule that every month he can add weight to the pommel, but he fights at a -2 while training (one month per weight unit) and there is a limit to how much he can add before the weapon is balanced so incorrectly that it is no longer useful. The reality is, adding one weight unit makes it almost unusable, but the training overcomes it.

I did just figured out your friend's logic, though. He does not think that the pommel weight is something you add to the weapon, he thinks it is a training aid (like the weighted donut for a baseball bat). In his mind, "training with a pommel" strengthens his arm enough to do +1, so training like that for more months give more +1s. But the reality (as much as that word has an actual definition in AD&D) is that the weight needs to be on the weapon to be of use, and the training is learning how to use the weapon with the added weight.

[Myth]

Pommels are essentially weights on the end of a sword. One of their purposes, is to balance the blade. Now an excessively weighted pommel would also make the sword unbalanced, but opposite from a pommel that was too light.
Getting extra damage from a heavier weapon, that works if the entire thing gets heavier, not just the 5 ounce mass below the heel of your hand. That's why Magic of Faerun introduced [heavy] weapons.
bullshizzle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szn6AHiQqto) :smallconfused: balancing the blade? no.

[Greenish]

bullshizzle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szn6AHiQqto) :smallconfused: balancing the blade? no.I wouldn't trust the fellow. What sort of a Brit doesn't drink tea? :smallwink:

[BridgeCity]

bullshizzle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szn6AHiQqto) :smallconfused: balancing the blade? no.

I'm not all that sure how trustworthy that guy is.

In the comments section he brushes off talking about pommels being used to hit people by saying that anything would have worked, and if they wanted them to be used that way they would have made them more offensivley shaped. He seems to be unaware (or choosing to ignore) the very real fact that Knights and other sword users were train to hold their sword by the blade and bash people with the pommel, like a mace, and trip them with the hand guard. Medievil instruction books have survived that detail this practise, pictures and everything.

Seemingly not being aware of that makes it difficult for me to believe he really knows as much about swords as he claims.

Also, as he himself points out, late medieval swords did use counter-weighted pommels. Given that D&D pretty much covers the ancient world right up to gunpowder (if you so choose) it is perfectly correct to say that one of the uses of a pommel can be as a counter-weight, which is what this particular game mechanic is playing with.

Edit: For those interested, the technique of using the pommel as a weapon is called Mordhau, also Mordstreich or Mordschlag. Translated from German it basically comes out as 'Murder Strike' which is just awesome.

[Myth]

Looking at most of the Albion swords (not having one myself.. yet) they all have metal pommels but all of them seem light. Saying that all pommels are counterweights is not the same as acknowledging that some (often those meant for trusting rather than cutting) have them.

Techniques where you use your sword as a mace? Which master wrote that? I only know about half-swording.

[BridgeCity]

Looking at most of the Albion swords (not having one myself.. yet) they all have metal pommels but all of them seem light. Saying that all pommels are counterweights is not the same as acknowledging that some (often those meant for trusting rather than cutting) have them.

Techniques where you use your sword as a mace? Which master wrote that? I only know about half-swording.

I'm pretty sure no one here has said that all pommels were used as weights, but your comment of 'balancing the blade? no.' comes across as you saying that none of them did. That's why I pointed out that a few were used that way.

As for using the sword as a mace, like I said it's called Mordhau, alternatively Mordstreich or Mordschlag, and comes from the German School of Swordsmanship. I don't know specifically who wrote it, but here is a link to a picture of a guy half-swording against a guy using Mordhau.

Mordhau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wallerstein_219.jpg)

Edit: The picture is from the Codex Wallerstein.

[Greenish]

I don't know specifically who wrote it, but here is a link to a picture of a guy half-swording against a guy using Mordhau.

Mordhau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wallerstein_219.jpg)That looks like it should be captioned "UR DOIN IT RONG".

[Boci]

Reguarding the +1 damage / month, I would allow that as long as for every extra point of damage, there was an increased chance of the weapon taking damage from using it for an attack, although that fits with a self sharpening sword more.