ToB Questions, RKV Swordsage.

[Elric VIII]

I'm working on a character now, basically something between a Rogue and a Bard, except using ToB and Cleric. My end build will be: Swordsage 6/Cleric 3/Crusader 1/RKV 10. I will be using Cloistered Cleric, Knowledge Devotion, and Spontaneous Divine Caster Variant. This will allow me 2 9th level maneuvers and 11th level Cleric Casting. I will be a Human with 1 flaw.

Here's a detailed build with feats:

Swordsage 1: Able Learner, Shadow Blade, Extra Readied Maneuver
Cleric 1: Illusion Domain, Divine Magician, trade Knowledge for Knowledge Devotion
Cleric 2: Weapon Finesse
Cleric 3: -
Crusader 1: -
Swordsage 2: EWP Spiked Chain or TWF
Swordsage 3: -
RVK 1: -
RKV 2: Divine Vigor
RKV3: -
RKV 4: -
RKV 5: Extra Turning
RKV 6: -
RKV 7: -
Swordsage 4: Extra Turning
RKV 8: -
RKV 9: -
RKV 10: Extra Turning
Swordsage 5: -
Swordsage 6: -



This character will focus on Setting Sun and Shadow Hand, with a few White Raven maneuvers. His stances, with the exception of the level 1 Crusader stance will be Shadow Hand. I have a few questions about execution and streamlining my character.

1.) To use Shadow Blade effectively one needs to also have Weapon Finesse and either Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, or Proficiency with the Spiked Chain. I would tend toward the chain, since you can't use TWF when executing a strike. Does this seem like a valid conclusion?

2.) Can one class's IL be used to determine the highest level maneuver learned from RKV, then add it to the other's list?
As an example, at my second RKV level my Swordsage IL would be 7 (3 SS + 0.5*4 other + 2 RKV) and my Crusader IL would be 6 (1 Cru + 0.5*6 other + 2RKV). As an IL 7 Swordsage I can learn a level 4 maneuver from Shadow Hand as part of my RKV level-up, can I choose to add that 4th level maneuver to my Crusader maneuvers known list?

3.) Since the RKV gives me a good recovery method, is it worth it to take Adaptive Style for Swordsage or should I leave it as an instance of Extra Turning? (Keep in mind that in addition to SS maneuvers I have 5 Crusader maneuvers and Cleric spells)

Thank you for your help.

[Douglas]

1) Yes.

2) No. You must use the initiator level of the class that you are adding the maneuver to.

3) That depends on how many encounters you expect in a typical day, how many times you expect to need to recover a Swordsage maneuver each encounter, and how many of the low levels you will actually have to play through. In general based on my experience I would recommend taking Adaptive Style at level 1, either by taking a second flaw or swapping out Extra Readied Maneuver.

[Elric VIII]

In general based on my experience I would recommend taking Adaptive Style at level 1, either by taking a second flaw or swapping out Extra Readied Maneuver.

It's a shame the SS recovery is so horrible. Before I decide on this, what are the breaks between encounters? Is it enough to fight at the castle gate then spend a few min traveling deeper into the castle to consider it a second encounter when you're attacked again?

I'm not opposed to taking another flaw, I'm just wondering (with the exception of the first few levels) if I will really need to stop to recover. I suppose having it and not needing it is better than needing it and not having it, so chances are that I will probobly go for it.

[JeminiZero]

1.) To use Shadow Blade effectively one needs to also have Weapon Finesse and either Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, or Proficiency with the Spiked Chain. I would tend toward the chain, since you can't use TWF when executing a strike. Does this seem like a valid conclusion?

You can use Shadowblade with any of Shadowhand's favored weapons, including the dagger, shortsword, sai and siangham. You can use TWF with strikes, but only certain specific strikes/boosts (the Mongoose series, and the Desert Wind boosts that add fire damage to all your melee attacks).

There is one other thing I would note: many Shadowhand stances require you to keep your off-hand free. Which means that you can't use Spiked Chain (a 2 handed weapon) and those stances at the same time. I would recommend that you either stick with shortswords+shadowblade, or else take spiked chain with something other than the shadowhand stance tree.


3.) Since the RKV gives me a good recovery method, is it worth it to take Adaptive Style for Swordsage or should I leave it as an instance of Extra Turning? (Keep in mind that in addition to SS maneuvers I have 5 Crusader maneuvers and Cleric spells)

I would actually opt to take Adaptive style, as Swordsages can burn through their maneuvers fairly quickly. They get a fair number of swift/immedate boosts/counters. Most notably the Diamond Mind Conc to save series, sudden leap, Desert Wind fire damage to melee boosts, swift Invis/Incorporeal etc. Being able to recover all of that at once is fairly important, especially in the middle of a prolonged fight, and is something that would seriously drain a RKV's turn recovery.

Edit: Plus there's the versatility of being able to switch out your current maneuvers for something else entirely different to tackle a particular enemy.

[Douglas]

I think the technical definition in ToB is that 1 minute of rest without interruption is enough to recover all maneuvers. They even go into details like not attacking, not being attacked, not using maneuvers, etc., just in case someone's insane enough to try a "between encounters" recovery while combat is still going on.

So, don't bother worrying about recovering between encounters. If there's enough separation for someone to say it's a new encounter without being laughed out of the room then you almost certainly have enough time to recover fully regardless of your class. You take Adaptive Style as a Swordsage for in-combat recovery while enemies are still on the field trying to kill you, and my experience has been that non-trivial encounters quite often do last long enough for even a Swordsage to run out unless you put an excessive focus on one type of maneuver. 6 strikes takes a lot longer to run out than 3 strikes, 2 boosts, and a counter, but the latter arrangement has considerably more power and flexibility while it lasts.

[Elric VIII]

There is one other thing I would note: many Shadowhand stances require you to keep your off-hand free. Which means that you can't use Spiked Chain (a 2 handed weapon) and those stances at the same time. I would recommend that you either stick with shortswords+shadowblade, or else take spiked chain with something other than the shadowhand stance tree.

AFAIK the only 2 are Balance on the Sky and Dance of the Spider. I'm not taking Dance of the Spider, since the only place that it would fit is in place of Assassin's Stance, and I'd prefer that. Balance on the Sky is a level 8 stance and I won't be getting it until level 17. It doesn't seem like a good trade-off for one level 17 ability.

Plus, my stances will be all Shadow hand, my maneuvers are also going to incorporate Setting Sun throws for BFC, which will be really good with a reach weapon.




Edit: Plus there's the versatility of being able to switch out your current maneuvers for something else entirely different to tackle a particular enemy.

The more I consider it (and by everyone's advice), the more I think that it is a very good idea to take this. I will be adding this to my plan.

[Draz74]

One note on the weapon choice -- spiked chain is a totally valid option, but unarmed strike could also work. If you go Unarmed Swordsage variant, you can spend one feat on Snap Kick and have a form of mini-TWF that also works while you're executing a maneuver.

Whether this is worth considering depends on whether your DM rules that the Unarmed Variant doesn't get its AC bonus in light armor. Also on how valuable the spiked chain's reach would be. Thanks to that reach, spiked chain is probably still better even if the armor ruling goes your way.

[Elric VIII]

Whether this is worth considering depends on whether your DM rules that the Unarmed Variant doesn't get its AC bonus in light armor. Also on how valuable the spiked chain's reach would be. Thanks to that reach, spiked chain is probably still better even if the armor ruling goes your way.

I went through this thought process myself, and came up with the answer that there are so many SS maneuvers I want to be able to play that my next-next character is going to be an unarmed SS/Beguiler/Jade Phoenix Mage with a dip into monk for flurry and Kung-Fu Genius.

[Reynard]

a dip into monk for flurry and Kung-Fu Genius.

Is +2/4 AC really worth a Monk dip?

Flurry can be replaced with the aforementioned Snap kick, only Snap Kick is much better as it can be used after moving, and you can attack with actual weapons as well.

[Elric VIII]

Is +2/4 AC really worth a Monk dip?

Flurry can be replaced with the aforementioned Snap kick, only Snap Kick is much better as it can be used after moving, and you can attack with actual weapons as well.

I was thinking about how under adaptations it did not give the unarmed SS Imp Unarmed Strike, but that's a stupid point since it's an adaptation, not a variant, and that should be included.

As for flurry, I thought that could be used with Snap Kick for additional attacks. Can someone TWF with unarmed only, then add Snap Kick for -4 to all attacks and two extra at max BAB?

[tyckspoon]

I was thinking about how under adaptations it did not give the unarmed SS Imp Unarmed Strike, but that's a stupid point since it's an adaptation, not a variant, and that should be included.

As for flurry, I thought that could be used with Snap Kick for additional attacks. Can someone TWF with unarmed only, then add Snap Kick for -4 to all attacks and two extra at max BAB?

Imp. Unarmed Strike is actually part of the monk's Unarmed Strike class feature, along with the improved damage dice, so that's taken care of.

TWFing with just Unarmed Strikes is.. debatable, because basically everything dealing with both Unarmed Strikes as a weapon and with Two-Weapon Fighting is filled with unstated assumptions from the designers about the right and obvious way they work, which turns out not to be obvious when somebody else goes over the text. So.. ask your DM. It won't break anything to allow it, but it does strike some people as weird or contrary to the intent of the rules.

[Reynard]

While you can use Flurry and Snap Kick together, your highest attack roll would be -4 compared to just normal full/single attacking.

So, say your to-hit modifier is, after all mods and such, +8. Flurry or Snap Kick alone would make it +6/+6. The two combined would make it +4/+4/+4.

FAKEEDIT: Wait, you said TWF. Well, the same applies. With the Two-Weapon fighting feat and light weapons, (which Unarmed Strikes are), it would be just +6/+6. And again, TWF+Snap Kick would be +4/+4/+4

So yeah, I'd say chose just one or two, probably TWF+Snap Kick, since they can be used after moving.


If you're certain about using Unarmed Strikes, and have a feat to spare, you may want to look into Magic of Incarnum for a one-level dip into Incarnate and the Open Chakra (Hands or Arms) feat. There are soulmelds that'll boost the damage you can do, mostly by adding a couple of d6s. Probably not optimal, though.

[Elric VIII]

Imp. Unarmed Strike is actually part of the monk's Unarmed Strike class feature, along with the improved damage dice, so that's taken care of.

TWFing with just Unarmed Strikes is.. debatable, because basically everything dealing with both Unarmed Strikes as a weapon and with Two-Weapon Fighting is filled with unstated assumptions from the designers about the right and obvious way they work, which turns out not to be obvious when somebody else goes over the text. So.. ask your DM. It won't break anything to allow it, but it does strike some people as weird or contrary to the intent of the rules.

Well. I'm not looking to cheese anything up, so to avoid that ugly mess, can I wield a shortsword in one hand and TWF with shortsword and unarmed strike, then add Snap Kick?

[Reynard]

Well. I'm not looking to cheese anything up, so to avoid that ugly mess, can I wield a shortsword in one hand and TWF with shortsword and unarmed strike, then add Snap Kick?

Yep.

And all will be Shadow Hand weapons, which is nice.

[Elric VIII]

While you can use Flurry and Snap Kick together, your highest attack roll would be -4 compared to just normal full/single attacking.

So, say your to-hit modifier is, after all mods and such, +8. Flurry or Snap Kick alone would make it +6/+6. The two combined would make it +4/+4/+4.

FAKEEDIT: Wait, you said TWF. Well, the same applies. With the Two-Weapon fighting feat and light weapons, (which Unarmed Strikes are), it would be just +6/+6. And again, TWF+Snap Kick would be +4/+4/+4

So yeah, I'd say chose just one or two, probably TWF+Snap Kick, since they can be used after moving.


If you're certain about using Unarmed Strikes, and have a feat to spare, you may want to look into Magic of Incarnum for a one-level dip into Incarnate and the Open Chakra (Hands or Arms) feat. There are soulmelds that'll boost the damage you can do, mostly by adding a couple of d6s. Probably not optimal, though.

I thought you could only attack with your off-hand on a full attack?

Also, instead of Open Chakra, wouldn't Superior Unarmed Strike bosst my damage without a dip?


Just a side note, the Flurry/TWF/Snap Kick idea (along with this character in general) were never really thoroughly thought out. They were just a side effect of my making the character in the original post, so I appologize if there are some ill-conceived notions here.

[Reynard]

If there's confusion, it's probably on my end. I was trying to help with your next-next character, the Unarmed Swordsage. Though, it is true that 'more dice' (from the Incarnate dip) tends to beat 'one size bigger' dice (from Monk). You'll probably get both, though, as an Unarmed Swordsage, since getting the Monk's unarmed strike damge increase is the only change that's really mentioned aside from taking away your light armour prof.

[Psyren]

I just wanted to point out the Adaptation on ToB pg. 125 that lets you swap out RKV's Devoted Spirit requirement for any other martial discipline. This should make it easier for you to qualify as a Swordsage, as you can replace it with Tiger Claw or something instead.

[Elric VIII]

I just wanted to point out the Adaptation on ToB pg. 125 that lets you swap out RKV's Devoted Spirit requirement for any other martial discipline. This should make it easier for you to qualify as a Swordsage, as you can replace it with Tiger Claw or something instead.

Oh, wow... that could make things a bit easier. Is there anything along the lones of suggested disciplines for the core dieties?