Wizards sharing Spellbooks: Any Reason Why Not?

[Tael]

So, I know many DM's disallow it, but is there any reason why wizards don't share their spells other than "They're all selfish and paranoid bastards"?

[Vladislav]

Just like Doctors, Wizards' handwritings are utterly unintelligible. Whatever was scribbled by Wizard #1 simply can't be understood by Wizard #2.

Now, I know someone will bring up the "but then how they can learn spells from scrolls!?" argument, so ...


Spellcraft DC 15 + spell level
Learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll (wizard only). No retry for that spell until you gain at least 1 rank in Spellcraft (even if you find another source to try to learn the spell from). Requires 8 hours.
To decipher even a single spell from someone else's book takes eight hours, and success is not guaranteed. Good luck trying to prepare a whole bunch of spells every morning this way.

[Tael]

Just like Doctors, Wizards' handwritings are utterly unintelligible. Whatever was scribbled by Wizard #1 simply can't be understood by Wizard #2.

Now, I know someone will bring up the "but then how they can learn spells from scrolls!?" argument, so ...


To decipher even a single spell from someone else's book takes eight hours, and success is not guaranteed. Good luck trying to prepare a whole bunch of spells every morning this way.

Unless you spent every waking moment out adventuring, I'd think an elf wizard would have the time to get a few spells in the 400 something years he has been alive.

And really? How could you conceivably fail that check after level 5 or so?

[Oracle_Hunter]

And before you thnk about copying it over - it's very expensive and time consuming.



Spells Copied from Another’s Spellbook or a Scroll
A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

If the check fails, the wizard cannot understand or copy the spell. She cannot attempt to learn or copy that spell again until she gains another rank in Spellcraft. A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from the scroll.

Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook
Once a wizard understands a new spell, she can record it into her spellbook.

Time
The process takes 24 hours, regardless of the spell’s level.

Space in the Spellbook
A spell takes up one page of the spellbook per spell level. Even a 0-level spell (cantrip) takes one page. A spellbook has one hundred pages.

Materials and Costs
Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.
That said, if you have the money & time to burn, there's no reason not to.

[Vladislav]

I'd think an elf wizard would have the time to get a few spells in the 400 something years he has been alive. Yes, he has time to get them into his own spellbook.

If he has one, that is. Except the whole point of the thread is that he doesn't.

If he shares a spellbook with another wizard, they are still written in the other wizard's handwriting, and it still takes 8 hours per spell to figure them out.

Of, if they are written in the elf's handwriting, the other wizard has to spend the 8 hours.

[pasko77]

So, I know many DM's disallow it, but is there any reason why wizards don't share their spells other than "They're all selfish and paranoid bastards"?

Have you ever tried to study on someone else's notes?

Yeah, that's why.

[Hzurr]

Just like Doctors, Wizards' handwritings are utterly unintelligible. Whatever was scribbled by Wizard #1 simply can't be understood by Wizard #2.

Now, I know someone will bring up the "but then how they can learn spells from scrolls!?" argument, so ...


To decipher even a single spell from someone else's book takes eight hours, and success is not guaranteed. Good luck trying to prepare a whole bunch of spells every morning this way.

That's quite honestly the best explanation I've ever heard.

:smallsmile:

In regards to the origional poster, RAW I think that two wizards could use the same spellbook. The downside is that it would take twice as long for each to prepare their spells every day, and you'll run out of room in a spellbook more quickly since you have two casters using one book for all of their spells. Also, single point of weakness: if that spell book is ever targeted by a thief or something like that, then both wizards are screwed. Always better to have multiple copies.

[Thalnawr]

Actually, on page 140 of Complete Arcane, there are rules for "mastering" another's spellbook, with a Spellcraft check of DC 25 plus the highest level of spell in the book. Yes, it's a time consuming process, but once you've mastered a book, you're done with it, and you can share like the OP seems to want to.

[Boci]

Have you ever tried to study on someone else's notes?

Yeah, that's why.

Sorry but the fact that some notes were written by a different person does not automatically make them less useful to me. They can be harder to understand, but they can also be easier.

[Tael]

Yes, he has time to get them into his own spellbook.

If he has one, that is. Except the whole point of the thread is that he doesn't.

If he shares a spellbook with another wizard, they are still written in the other wizard's handwriting, and it still takes 8 hours per spell to figure them out.

Of, if they are written in the elf's handwriting, the other wizard has to spend the 8 hours.

Actually, I am not talking about the sharing of one spellbook between two wizards permanently, but Elf Wizard 1 going up to Elf Wizard 2 and saying "Hey dude, can I study your spellbook once you memorize your spells for the day, as you won't be needing it for at least another 24 hours?"

[LibraryOgre]

I borrow a bit from Ars Magica in describing why wizards spellbooks are generally mutually unintelligible... basically, while they mostly rely on the same magical theories, everyone develops their own short-hand, especially as they develop in level. Did you master a couple spells? Then your notes about future spells you learn will include references to those mastered spells; something like "q.v. 3rd p DMII; nomin. instig. blf or expls." To me, this makes sense as "referencing the 3rd paragraph of Greater Dispel Magic, the nominative instigator should be a bilabial fricative, or there will be an explosion."

Anyone else has to stare at it for a long while before they can figure out what the heck I mean.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Gorram 3.5 and its arcane rules structure :smallsigh:


Arcane Magical Writings
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in her own way. Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until she takes time to study and decipher it.

To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers a magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.

Once a character deciphers a particular magical writing, she does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering a magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll.
So yeah.

If you use Read Magic you can instantly decipher another 'caster's writings - and then you never need to roll to decipher them again. So each 'caster uses Read Magic, looks over the other's spellbook (at the rate of one page per minute on a 10 min/lv spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/readMagic.htm)) and then, when you have the gold, you can copy it into your own spellbook.
Long story short - you can't actually prepare any spell you don't already have copied in your own spellbook. Copying a spell into your spellbook costs 100 GP per Page and each spell takes up pages equal to (1 + [Spell Level - 1]) and takes 24 hours per spell copied.

So, your DM isn't using a house rule here. It's RAW, unless he doesn't let you copy spells even when you have the time and money.

[Tael]

So, your DM isn't using a house rule here. It's RAW, unless he doesn't let you copy spells even when you have the time and money.

Yeah, in case I wasn't clear, this is my problem. My Elf wizard is a reasonably high ranking member of the Mages Guild, more than 200 years old, and somehow cannot have learned any spell from his colleagues.

[Godskook]

@Oracle Hunter, he's asking about why other wizards are stingy, not why the magic is hard to read.

@OP, your DM might be over-doing it for some reason, since wizards *should* be sharing some spells, but at the same time, ask yourself this: "Why don't all programmers share their code with each other?"

[Tokuhara]

Well, the way I look at it, if you are the head of the organization or are close friends with colleagues, they could "decipher" it for you

[Tael]

@OP, your DM might be over-doing it for some reason, since wizards *should* be sharing some spells, but at the same time, ask yourself this: "Why don't all programmers share their code with each other?"

Uh, they do. Not code for current projects that are going to be marketed of course, but there is tons and tons of free code for just about anything available on the internet.

Also, Programming is not the best analog, since Wizards don't sell their new spells. Compare it instead to research professors, who may not share the stuff that they're working on currently for a paper or grant, but will share anything less recent than that.

[Godskook]

Uh, they do. Not code for current projects that are going to be marketed of course, but there is tons and tons of free code for just about anything available on the internet.

Some programmers share their code, but not all, and the latter was what I said.


Also, Programming is not the best analog, since Wizards don't sell their new spells. Compare it instead to research professors, who may not share the stuff that they're working on currently for a paper or grant, but will share anything less recent than that.

:smallconfused: They don't? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices)

[Tael]

Some programmers share their code, but not all, and the latter was what I said.



:smallconfused: They don't? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices)

Clarification: They don't sell their spells as intellectual property. Well, at there's no rules for it.

[Godskook]

Clarification: They don't sell their spells as intellectual property. Well, at there's no rules for it.

:smallconfused: There's not?


In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook)

[LibraryOgre]

Yeah, in case I wasn't clear, this is my problem. My Elf wizard is a reasonably high ranking member of the Mages Guild, more than 200 years old, and somehow cannot have learned any spell from his colleagues.

Nothing prevents him from learning spells from his colleagues... he just needs to pay for them in resources. It's not like he can take their spell book down to Kinkos and photocopy the pages.

You may be saying "Well, I just need to pay for copying materials, then, because my colleagues wouldn't charge me." However, we're talking resources, not necessarily cash. Have you been paying your dues tot he guild for the 100+ years you've been a member? Have you been buying them dinner and drinks to cement relationships (i.e. make them willing trade spells with you)? These things are abstracted in the background of characters made above level 1. If your character IS level 1, then you're not a high ranking member, and you haven't had the resources to build relationships that way.

[Oracle_Hunter]

@Oracle Hunter, he's asking about why other wizards are stingy, not why the magic is hard to read.
The other reason is that when you're monopolizing someone else's spellbook, they can't be using it - and at 24 hours per spell, this can leave an individual without his spellbook for a long time.

Of course, a Wizard's Academy should have a full set of "copied" spellbooks in some secure storage facility. Ask your DM why you can't get access to those.

[Tael]

:smallconfused: There's not?

That's not inventing new spell, that's paying them to let you borrow their spell book. Tons of people know about the spell magic missile, it's widely used and available everywhere. You're just paying them for the trouble.

[warmachine]

What I find annoying is that buying a spell to put into your spellbook requires buying a scroll. I find it incomprehensible that, in a pseudo-medieval setting, there isn't a network of guild halls or monasteries with open spellbooks on hand, chained to the desk. You just have to supply your own materials and pay a small fee.

Information is power but if people are selling such information as arcane scrolls on the open market in the first place, you may as well reduce costs by creating a spare spellbook, charging for access to it and undercut the scroll sellers. Someone can steal the spellbook but someone can steal scrolls anyway. If you don't like a stranger sitting in your library for days on end, kick the book to an outhouse. If you want customers in and out as fast as possible, sell spellbook pages.

There's a danger that some spells will become effectively free due to commonplace pages but better to use this business model before some do-gooder church or wizard gives the spells away for free anyway.

[Diarmuid]

Buying a scroll is not the only way. Someone earlier in the thread quoted the pricing model normally used for paying to copy a spell from someone else's book.

[Bobbis]

What I find annoying is that buying a spell to put into your spellbook requires buying a scroll. I find it incomprehensible that, in a pseudo-medieval setting, there isn't a network of guild halls or monasteries with open spellbooks on hand, chained to the desk. You just have to supply your own materials and pay a small fee.

That's what's great about D&D, if your DM wants there to be. There are. In fact, since I run a not-quite-Tippy-verse (magic is commonplace, decanters of endless water supply towns and cities) I'm going to implement this.

[Godskook]

That's not inventing new spell, that's paying them to let you borrow their spell book. Tons of people know about the spell magic missile, it's widely used and available everywhere. You're just paying them for the trouble.

That's your interpretation. The text does not distinguish between "privilege = intellectual property" and "privilege = hassle", and the 'hassle' isn't really a hassle, since it costs them literally nothing, in time or expense.

And if it were hassle, why is the price based on what you're recieving, not on what you're borrowing. Rent is usually proportional to the liability of the original owner, not the benefit recieved by the customer(it costs more to rent more expensive cars, but they all drive).

Finally, I didn't say you were paying them to invent anything. I said you were paying them for their intellectual property.

[ericgrau]

I thought that the PHB specifically recommends this, unless I'm mistaken. Or maybe it was common knowledge I heard a long time ago.

You can copy or prepare spells from other wizard's spellbooks with a spellcraft check. IIRC if that wizard is with you while you copy spells then you don't need to make a check. It's in the rules for putting new spells into spellbooks and in the spellcraft rules.

[Diarmuid]

Unfortunately, you're misremembering that section. Earlier in the thread someone pasted in that section and you could "decipher" a spell from someone else's book which would then allow you to write it into your own book. Alone, this requires a Spellcraft check, with the author the success is automatic.

This does not let you memorize directly from the other person's book. Someone mentioned a newer rule from CArc or CMage about "mastering" someone else's book which I'm guessing does allow for that, but I havent read the rule, I'm just going by what was already mentioned.

[Godskook]

Unfortunately, you're misremembering that section. Earlier in the thread someone pasted in that section and you could "decipher" a spell from someone else's book which would then allow you to write it into your own book. Alone, this requires a Spellcraft check, with the author the success is automatic.

This does not let you memorize directly from the other person's book. Someone mentioned a newer rule from CArc or CMage about "mastering" someone else's book which I'm guessing does allow for that, but I havent read the rule, I'm just going by what was already mentioned.

Actually:


A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster’s book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)

All it takes is a spellcraft check to prepare a spell directly from another's spellbook, and the check scales trivially compared to one's spellcraft.

The key qualifier is that the wizard must already "know" the spell.

[LibraryOgre]

Actually, that's a fascinating artifact of 3e... knowing a spell meant putting it in your spellbook. There wasn't, aside from spell mastery, a mechanism for "knowing" a spell without writing it in your spellbook, and if you lose your spellbook, you technically don't know any spells save those you've mastered.

[Marnath]

Unfortunately, you're misremembering that section. Earlier in the thread someone pasted in that section and you could "decipher" a spell from someone else's book which would then allow you to write it into your own book. Alone, this requires a Spellcraft check, with the author the success is automatic.

This does not let you memorize directly from the other person's book. Someone mentioned a newer rule from CArc or CMage about "mastering" someone else's book which I'm guessing does allow for that, but I havent read the rule, I'm just going by what was already mentioned.

While it is true you couldn't cast from another's book, you could in theory have spent part of your WBL to buy a few choice spells out of a buddies book at some point in the past few decades/centuries. I don't see any difference between that and saying that you can start the game with scrolls and inscription materials, you paid out of your WBL anyway so what's it matter if you did the actual copying 20 years ago vs having to do it mid-campaign?

*edit: I suppose a difference could be not paying the cost of actual scrolls, but then you could just deduct that as "guild dues" or a bribe to the other wizard.

[dextercorvia]

Actually, that's a fascinating artifact of 3e... knowing a spell meant putting it in your spellbook. There wasn't, aside from spell mastery, a mechanism for "knowing" a spell without writing it in your spellbook, and if you lose your spellbook, you technically don't know any spells save those you've mastered.

You still "know" the spells in you scribed into your lost spellbook. You just can't prepare them without it. That way you can still use the borrowed spellbook to prepare them.

[Tyndmyr]

So, I know many DM's disallow it, but is there any reason why wizards don't share their spells other than "They're all selfish and paranoid bastards"?

Trust is one possible issue. A wizard's spellbook is a valuable thing to him.

Lack of a reasonable trade is another. If you both have something to gain from the other, all well and good. If he's gonna pick up a stack of spells from me, but I know all the spells he has, well, Ima want something for it.

Time. It's not ridiculous, but it takes time. Some wizards are busy off adventuring or w/e, and may not always have time.

The above should hardly apply all the time to everyone, but there are reasonable situations when it can't happen. Occasionally.

[Susano-wo]

What I am reading is that you can learn spells from another's spellbook, you just have to go through the hoops to have dechiphered the spells.

YOu have to put it in your own spellbook in your own notation to be able to memorize it, but if you borrow the spellbook for the day, you can decipher the spells gradually and add them to a spellbook of your own

And to the OP's point, it is assinine to tell your character that he cannot have learned more spells in his spellbook than the wizard level up, unless there is good story/gameworld reason, and especially if you were a high ranking mage guild member :smallconfused:

It should of course come out of your availible recources, WBL or whatever the GM is giving everyone, but you should be able to do it. Its like telling the fighter that he can't have a sword, or rather that he can't have more than, say 1 or 2 :smallamused:

[Yahzi]

I find it incomprehensible that, in a pseudo-medieval setting, there isn't a network of guild halls or monasteries with open spellbooks on hand, chained to the desk.
I find your incomprehension incomprehensible.

In a standard medieval setting, each wizard is going to invent their own private language for use in their spellbooks. This is to keep their competitors from spying, scrying, or otherwise sneaking a peek. Because to a medievalist, information is power - to be jealously hoarded and guarded.

Remember, our economic theories don't exist. The idea that if you stimulate demand, you can stimulate production and thus make more taxes? Doesn't exist. The idea that if everybody agrees to a common structure, then information can be freely distributed and everyone profits even more? Doesn't exist. The idea that a government should act for the benefit of the people? Doesn't exist.

Government in the medieval age meant "looking after someone's private property," which happened to include serfs and peasants. There is barely a notion of nationhood; the concept of "social contract" hasn't been invented yet (actually it has but it was forgotten), even group organizations as mercenary as corporations haven't been invented yet. It is all about personal oaths of loyalty, personal property, personal rights, personal power.

Read some Jack Vance fantasy. Then imagine those wizards sharing spells. Ha! This will put you in the right mind-set.

But if you let modern notions of economics/game theory intrude on your fantasy world, then wizards sharing spell books is the least of your worries. The whole concept of feudalism is doomed, and with it your good kings, evil barons, and noble knights.

[kiryoku]

the scroll spell learning thing is asuming you dont have the creators help i think right?

[Jack_Simth]

Just like Doctors, Wizards' handwritings are utterly unintelligible. Whatever was scribbled by Wizard #1 simply can't be understood by Wizard #2.

Now, I know someone will bring up the "but then how they can learn spells from scrolls!?" argument, so ...


To decipher even a single spell from someone else's book takes eight hours, and success is not guaranteed. Good luck trying to prepare a whole bunch of spells every morning this way.
You're looking at the wrong entry. That's for copying it to yours. The one you want is (also DC 15+Spell level, mind): "Prepare a spell from a borrowed spellbook (wizard only). One try per day. No extra time required. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm)" - which takes exactly as long as preparing spells normally. And as you need a nonthreatening environment to prepare spells anyway, you can take ten. If you have a +6 Spellcraft modifier, this is automatic at 1st for 1st level spells. Oh yes, that's 4 ranks in Spellcraft, and a +2 Int modifier. The DMG NPC Wizard can do it. It gets easier from there.

[Godskook]

The idea that a government should act for the benefit of the people? Doesn't exist.

This is funnier out of context than it was in context.

[Curmudgeon]

What I find annoying is that buying a spell to put into your spellbook requires buying a scroll. I find it incomprehensible that, in a pseudo-medieval setting, there isn't a network of guild halls or monasteries with open spellbooks on hand, chained to the desk.
Gee, that's exactly what I picture to explain this:
At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. What with all the Wizards leveling up, 2 is all you're allowed before you've got to let someone else have time with those books.

[The Big Dice]

Guilds of wizards wouldn't share anything with non members, because guilds are all about protecting a monopoly. In fact, a wizard's guild would be very likely to stomp on wizards that aren't members. A non guild wizard causing trouble makes the guild look bad. A non guild wizard being successful is intruding on the guild monopoly. Same for non guild members that are teaching wizardry, crafting or any other application of arcane ability that the guild should be regulating.

A guild offers protection and recognition of ability, plus access to teachers and training facilities in exchange for taking a hefty cut of member's earnings.

I could see a situation where they allow members to copy spells. For a fee, of course. Because the guild isn't a charity, it's a powerful political, social and economic organisation.

But I still wouldn't smile on players copying spells from each other's spellbooks. It makes two PC wizards into two identical PC wizards. An important rule at my table is, Thou Shalt Not Steal Another Player's Thunder.

[Marnath]

But I still wouldn't smile on players copying spells from each other's spellbooks. It makes two PC wizards into two identical PC wizards. An important rule at my table is, Thou Shalt Not Steal Another Player's Thunder.

Be that as it may, it is a campaign decision. By the rules, it works just fine. I'd personally find it very hard to imagine that even in the most restrictive guild you'd not have earned enough trust and standing to copy at least a few spells after what, 200 years was it?

[Curmudgeon]

Guilds of wizards wouldn't share anything with non members, because guilds are all about protecting a monopoly.
Structured organizations also want to maintain stability, so they're not going to do that much sharing even with their members. If any low-level Wizard could acquire all the spells they can cast with little or no expense, they could become a threat to higher-level members of the organization. So keeping the free spells down to 2 per level is a way for powerful Guild Wizards to maintain the advantage of superior spell knowledge over those upstart adventurer sorts.

[Marnath]

But that's all elementary, because the two spells a level are meant to represent your own research you do in your down time.

[Dr.Epic]

If they're spells are tattooed on themselves that could make for some...interesting sharing.:smallwink:

[Coidzor]

But I still wouldn't smile on players copying spells from each other's spellbooks. It makes two PC wizards into two identical PC wizards. An important rule at my table is, Thou Shalt Not Steal Another Player's Thunder.

No it doesn't, two players playing wizards in the same manner makes two identical PC wizards, not the contents of their spellbooks exactly matching up. Of course, this would lead to further questions of how they would even manage to do that in play, considering most BGC spells normally only require one application. And if you're having to ramp up encounters that much to account for two adept wizard players, them having similar or identical spell lists is the least of the concerns shaping the scenario.

...And your rule makes more sense for you to instead ban multiple instances of the same class, or at least the same party role than it does to ban characters with wizard levels sharing spells between spellbooks specifically.

Also, a gish is still a very different PC from a straight wizard, even if the gish also knows the straight wizard's spells and can pinch-hit on occasion.


And before you thnk about copying it over - it's very expensive and time consuming.

That said, if you have the money & time to burn, there's no reason not to.

Your sarcasm didn't translate very well in this case, sorry.


I borrow a bit from Ars Magica in describing why wizards spellbooks are generally mutually unintelligible... basically, while they mostly rely on the same magical theories, everyone develops their own short-hand, especially as they develop in level

This is supported by the rules that state masters and apprentices (and I believe apprentices of the same master) gain bonuses on deciphering the arcane writings of one another.

[ericgrau]

There are already rules for common fees that an NPC might charge for sharing a spellbook. You might not find exactly what spell you want like buying an individual scroll, but otherwise it's a better deal if you want to load up on a whole bunch of spells in bulk.

Spellbooks aren't cheap, and losing one is a disaster for a wizard. It's like loaning out your car or house. Another forumite said, no, it was like loaning out your soul. In any case you don't do it for free for strangers. Charging a fee is reasonable.

[Coidzor]

OP: It's clear your DM wants to limit your personal power from the ruling he made. Still, you're not as bad off as a sorcerer is, but it can be a quite instructive thought-exercise to pare yourself down to the essentials.

[Curmudgeon]

But that's all elementary, because the two spells a level are meant to represent your own research you do in your down time.
Those are more light part-time course work than independent spell research, though. After all, you're limited to existing spells of a level you can (or soon will be able to) cast. Independent research will let you devise new spells.

[Yahzi]

Guilds of wizards
There are no guilds of wizards.

As you note, guilds are about protection. Wizards don't need protection. Wizards only competition for power are a) other wizards, and b) clerics and druids. They can't do much about the divines except ignore them; but the last thing they want to do is make some other wizard stronger.

To be a wizard is to be a solitary Master of the Universe. If you wanted the help (and limitations) of others, you would have been a priest. The kind of IQ that makes a wizard doesn't come without an equally sized ego. Wizards are in it for themselves.

It's not entirely unjustifiable; arcane power is easy to misuse (unlike divine power which specifically comes with rules and overseeing parties). Not everyone should be trusted with it; and the way you know someone is worthy of the power is that they managed to achieve it on their own.

Wizards: the ultimate Libertarians - not only do they ignore the rules of man, they ignore the rules of physics! :smallbiggrin:

[BeholderSlayer]

Theres a specific rule that allows this in the PHB for a paltry 50 gp/ spell level fee.

[The Big Dice]

There are no guilds of wizards.

As you note, guilds are about protection. Wizards don't need protection. Wizards only competition for power are a) other wizards, and b) clerics and druids. They can't do much about the divines except ignore them; but the last thing they want to do is make some other wizard stronger.

To be a wizard is to be a solitary Master of the Universe. If you wanted the help (and limitations) of others, you would have been a priest. The kind of IQ that makes a wizard doesn't come without an equally sized ego. Wizards are in it for themselves.

It's not entirely unjustifiable; arcane power is easy to misuse (unlike divine power which specifically comes with rules and overseeing parties). Not everyone should be trusted with it; and the way you know someone is worthy of the power is that they managed to achieve it on their own.

Wizards: the ultimate Libertarians - not only do they ignore the rules of man, they ignore the rules of physics! :smallbiggrin:

Low level wizards get protection or they are dead meat. If you kill enough low level wizards,eventually you run out of wizards.

Mid level wizards need protection in numbers.Individually, they are fairly powerful, but they are also extremely vulnerable. Especially to mid level and high level wizards. They need protecting from people with the same kind of abilities that are also aggressive in their research methods. And they need some kind of organisation to give them respectability in the face of clerics, who are fully capable of stomping those annoying wizards out of existence if they get a reason to.

High level wizards are a force of nature, but even they are vulnerable. Sure, they have the capability of changing the face of nations. But so do other high level wizards. And they are a fairly rare breed, having survived the witch hunts the mundanes have while they were at low levels, because of the activities of mid level wizards competing for resources.

Wizards depend on people.They might be intelligent, but intelligence doesn't mean you remember to eat or think about doing laundry and other mundane chores. Intelligence is no protection against absent mindedness, or getting sidetracked by a random thought that relates to your latest line of research.

Wizards who act in the ways described on these forums would end up being the kind of wizards that adventurers come along to overthrow.

[faceroll]

Saw this in Oracle Hunter's post:


Arcane Magical Writings
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in her own way. Another person’s magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until she takes time to study and decipher it.

To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in written form in another’s spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell’s level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers a magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.

Once a character deciphers a particular magical writing, she does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering a magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing was a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, she can attempt to use the scroll.

Does the bolded part preclude use of Secret Page from making a cheap duplication of another wizard's spellbook?


There are no guilds of wizards.

Except for prestige classes like Mage of the Arcane Order or Red Wizard....

[Curmudgeon]

Does the bolded part preclude use of Secret Page from making a cheap duplication of another wizard's spellbook?
No, the spell itself precludes that. While Secret Page can make a page appear to hold another spell, there's nothing in the spell description that allows the caster to specify what spell, or to allow making a copy (accurate or otherwise) of any particular magical writing.

[faceroll]

No, the spell itself precludes that. While Secret Page can make a page appear to hold another spell, there's nothing in the spell description that allows the caster to specify what spell, or to allow making a copy (accurate or otherwise) of any particular magical writing.

The argument I've seen in favor of the Secret Page trick is that the writing in a wizard's spellbook isn't actually magical, as it's not specified in the rules (allegedly), but here there are rules that describe the spellbook writing as magical in nature.

[Curmudgeon]

The argument I've seen in favor of the Secret Page trick is that the writing in a wizard's spellbook isn't actually magical, as it's not specified in the rules (allegedly), but here there are rules that describe the spellbook writing as magical in nature.
That actually isn't relevant to the issue. The Secret Page spell description doesn't specify any copy functionality, so the trick doesn't work. SP just produces something different, not necessarily any particular writing.

[doctor_wu]

Also what happens when the wizard is traveling to different areas to do research.

I am thinking of a conjurers conference or something and the other wizard was not invited how will you prepare spells then.

A dm can make a guild of wizards if he felt like it or a university.

Actually what if there was a guild of wizards saying each wizard must have his own spellbook. Wizard guild did it.

[Tyndmyr]

I find your incomprehension incomprehensible.

In a standard medieval setting, each wizard is going to invent their own private language for use in their spellbooks. This is to keep their competitors from spying, scrying, or otherwise sneaking a peek. Because to a medievalist, information is power - to be jealously hoarded and guarded.

Remember, our economic theories don't exist. The idea that if you stimulate demand, you can stimulate production and thus make more taxes? Doesn't exist. The idea that if everybody agrees to a common structure, then information can be freely distributed and everyone profits even more? Doesn't exist. The idea that a government should act for the benefit of the people? Doesn't exist.

Once you have magic, you no longer have a standard medieval setting. Therefore, everything that follows from this assumption is irrelevant.

Even the default D&D setting has dieties with Magic in their domain. Complete Champion has rules for the massive churches which exist to spread the knowledge of magic.

So, his incomprehension is quite understandable. The existence of massive organizations trading spells is part of the rules. Therefore, they are an expected part of standard D&D(not to be confused with medieval settings)