Master Specalist Question..

[Maho-Tsukai]

After looking at the Master Specialist Class' expanded spellbook I was wondering exactly what lists it can take spells from. By RAW you can TECHNICALLY take a spell from any list so long as it's in your school which means if I where to say play a Wizard(Necromancy) 3/Master Specialist X I could use said ability to gain the cleric version of animate dead as a level 3 spell meaning I am no longer behind a cleric in being a Necromancer. However, I remember somebody telling me that for some reason(Errata, perhaps...) the Master Specialist can only grab spells off the Wizard/Sorc list with expanded spellbook. Is this true or can I take spells from lists other then the Wiz/Sorc list so long as they are in my specialized school?

[Urpriest]

Errata is indeed the reason. The Complete Mage errata specify that Master Specialists can only take these extra spells off the wiz/sorc list.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Ok, thanks. Looks like my only way to get a non-DN arcane necromancer who dose not suck compared to a cleric is via the Death Master and other 3rd party sources I have. What a shame. *sighs* Ehh...At least the Death Master from the Dragon Magazine Compendium(Which I guess is "2nd Party" since it's made jointly by Wizards and Pazio..) can make up for it's small list by learning off-list spells from scrolls and spellbooks.(While that is most likely not RAI, by RAW a Death Master's spellbook functions "Identical to that of a wizard" meaning that they have access to every spell a wizard can grab via scrolls, spellbooks ect..AND acssess to the spells on their list which include some things most wizards will never get their hands on without feats..(Desecrate, for example, and Animate Dead as a level 2 spell.))

[Urpriest]

I know you've stated this in a previous thread, but why exactly do you want to avoid DN for this concept? Too easy?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Two reasons, actually. A) Too overused. I have played DNs before. I have played them a lot, after playing one class for a very long period of time you kinda want to change it up. B) Limited spell list. While the DN is a great Necromancer he lacks many of the obscure, lesser known, fun, flavorful spells that Wizards and Clerics have access too and he dose not. I mean, yeah, DN's can do Necromancy great, but the cleric can be a Necromancer too and STILL be able to do other things, and have acssess to a crapload of necromancy spells a DN will never get their hands on. The wizard sucks as a Necromancer but still gets some of those lesser known spells and like the cleric can do other things AND Necromancy while the DN dose necromancy and that's it.(Oh, and not to knock DNs but they still can't animate anything until they hit level 4 spells and, like a wizard, lack desecrate in their spell list. In fact their whole spell list is pretty botched but whenever I play a DN I use a fixed version of the spell list which I posted up on these forums a long while back, actually.)

Death Master and/or 3rd party stuff gives me what I want. Death Master gives me low level animation, desecrate and acssess to those "wizard exclusive" spells via scrolls, spellbooks ect.. and I also happen to have enough 3rd party books on Necromancy to make a Wizard a powerful animator/undead legion making type.(Mainly because I had scoured the internet for ANY way to make a Wizard an animator necromancer on par with a cleric when it comes to the legion making thing and I have a few 3rd party sources which through a combination of unique feats and spells can do a reasonable job of that...I also, unknowingly, picked up a lot of crappy Necromancy supplements as well..."Secret Collage of Necromancy" ring any bells?)

[Psyren]

Have you considered Archivist, or Cloistered Cleric with Divine Magician? Both of those can load up on necromancy spells, including those from the wiz/sorc list.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Archivist was actually an option I had considered a while back. As for cloistered cleric, no...just..no. The reason? I prefer high int and/or high cha to high wis so unless I can houserule a casting stat change cleric is not an option. As for archivist, I have heard numerous times that it sucks at Necromancy although I don't think that's the case personally. Sure it lacks rebuke, domains and spontaneous inflicts but it has all the necessary spells and since it can get command and control undead(domain spell lists ARE divine after all) it really dose not need rebuke...and besides control undead is FAR better then rebuke is at higher levels anyway. As for domains, yeah, thats kinda a loss but Archivists are still divine so all they need to do to get domains is PrC out into something that gives them bonus domains like Contemplative. However, despite all these things people STILL say they suck at Necromancy. I honestly don't know why but they still say that and if anybody here has an answer to why people say that DESPITE what I have pointed out above I would love to hear.

So archivist is still a consideration for games in which the Death Master is not allowed but if the Death Master is allowed it's the better option since unlike archivist it's not totally reliant on scrolls for good necromancy. So yeah. Also...the ABSOLUTE BEST scenario is Death Master + Frank and K Materal. A Death Master with either the Child Necromancer feat or levels in the Master of the Seven Necromantic Mysteries PrC can learn any necromancy spell from any list and Child Necromancer gives him the ability to do that at 1st level, no less. In addition Frank and K give us those lovely Necromantic creation feats and a lot of nice, flavorful PrCs.

[Godskook]

Arcane Disciple and Extra Spell? The first grants you an entire domain's spells, and the second, by some readings of RAW, is non-list specific.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Extra spell maybe. Arcane disciple is a no. For two reasons. The first is that Arcane Disciple's spells are based off Wis, a traditional dumb stat for wizards. Secondly, Arcane Disciple dose not add those spells to your spellbook or anything like that. It gives you domain slots and those spells can only be prepared in those slots. I want to be able to cast desecrate and animate dead more then once per day, thank you. Extra Spell is meh. It gets you desecrate at the same level clerics get animate dead...so it's not that great at accomplishing what I want to do. Though for a game which starts at higher levels it's a viable option.

[Godskook]

1.Arcane Disciple does not grant bonus spell slots at all

2.Unless you need exceedingly high DCs for the spells, you'll only need wisdom 19 by level 17 or so, which if you have a spare 10 or 12, can get you there fairly easily, depending on stat generation(which is how, btw?) And that's *only* if you need the 9ths. If you're shooting for lower level spells, no problem.

3.While you can only cast them 1/day, you're still allowed to use wands/scrolls unlimitedly.

4.The spells are "learn as normal for your class", which for a wizard, does allow you to add them straight to your spellbook.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I see, I am sorry for the confusion. However, if it's still 1/day it's not something I want to invest in. Again, I want to cast animate dead and desecrate more then once per day, period. Like I said, I will just suck it up and make a Death Master, even if the RAW is shoved aside in the favor of RAI it dose what I want to do sans acssess to certain spells that while nice to have are not necessary. Besides if RAW trumps RAI, like most people seem to claim, I can get those "wizard exclusive" spells provided I have the right scrolls or there is a wizard in the party who leans those spells and lets me have a look at their spellbook. Archivist is also on the table as well, though I want to here the arguments for why it sucks at necromancy before I decide to run a Necromancer Archivist.

[Keld Denar]

Primary problem with non-cleric/non-DN necromancers is that Rebuke Undead is still kinda awesome. On top of using it with Divine feats like Profane Lifeleach or other negative energy abilities, it adds more undeaders to your army, especially the powerful Incorps like Shadows.

The only way for an Archivist to really get the mechanic without losing caster levels is to dip into Sacred Exorcist for at least a level, and SacEx just doesn't have the necromancery feel to it (in fact, its the opposite!).

[Greenish]

As for cloistered cleric, no...just..no. The reason? I prefer high int and/or high cha to high wis so unless I can houserule a casting stat change cleric is not an option.Since you're not opposed to using 3rd party sources, one of the Dragonlance splats (Legend of the Twins, sayeth google) has feats for that.

[Urpriest]

Why do you want to use Desecrate or Animate Dead multiple times per day? They're both downtime spells, used when upgrading your undead army. Ideally you're only casting them a few times a level. What are the chances they'll all be on the same day?

[Maho-Tsukai]

@ Keld: Death Masters get rebuke as well, and I mentioned them as a viable option. Likewise 3rd party sources I have give feats to get rebuking and I have also started homebrewing some spells and feats for wizards(though sorcs can use most of them too) to fix their issue with animating and such.