Protoss VS Covenant!

[KingOfLaughter]

As the title explains,

SC Protoss VS Halo Covenant.
Both races are at their peaks, and have all available tech (Mother ships, reavers, etc)

I won't post my points just yet, just that I'm leaning on protoss.

Setting. Some world which both teams were drawn to in FULL FORCE to claim the relics on tis planet.

Scenario. Full out war. Only glassing is not allowed.

Ready? Set? GO!

[KillItWithFire]

Protoss send in dark tempies as an initial harraessment strike, all the while proucding collosi to deal with ground infantry like grunts and jackles. void rays an carriers prouced to deal with enemy vehicals and immortals sent in to deal with elites and other generals. If they manage their resources wisely the fact that they can use warp prisms to transport units quickly and teleport reinforcements into that position will make a huge difference. I'd go toss as the covies don't seem to be reay to handle as many distinct scenarios that the toss can and also are not psychic.

[KingOfLaughter]

Protoss send in dark tempies as an initial harraessment strike, all the while proucding collosi to deal with ground infantry like grunts and jackles. void rays an carriers prouced to deal with enemy vehicals and immortals sent in to deal with elites and other generals. If they manage their resources wisely the fact that they can use warp prisms to transport units quickly and teleport reinforcements into that position will make a huge difference. I'd go toss as the covies don't seem to be reay to handle as many distinct scenarios that the toss can and also are not psychic.

The fact that most protoss have the ability to sense an opponents move before it happens lends them a hug advantage. A zealot is probably on par with the Arbiter

[The Glyphstone]

At their peak, the Protoss will kick the Covenant nine ways to Sunday. They have reserves/secure positions that the Covenant can't eliminate, due to being halfway across the galaxy and warping in via robots. They can just keep churning out unmanned drone units en masse on-the-spot, or warp in reinforcements, while the Covenant has to physically transport their reinforcements. And yeah, they're psychics.

Technologically, they're probably within a fair margin (uncertain who's leading, but it would be a slim lead) - in a direct fight, the Protoss have an absurd logistic advantage that the Covenant can't hope to overcome in a long enough slugfest. That'll matter in the end far more than any amount of precognition or prescience.

[KillItWithFire]

Technologically, they're probably within a fair margin (uncertain who's leading, but it would be a slim lead) - in a direct fight, the Protoss have an absurd logistic advantage that the Covenant can't hope to overcome in a long enough slugfest. That'll matter in the end far more than any amount of precognition or prescience.

Yes it will but just think of the damage that two high tempies can lay down by warping in unnoticed, laying down some storms then merging. The storms would take out a number of grunts and an archon would take a few elites with it. All for the cost of two high templars. Quick question, how effective are we going to say an overcharge plasma pistol will be? Will it take down shields? Disable all mechanical units? (IE: Immortals)

Still, when the most impressive part of the covonent is mainly just their warriors presence on the battlefield I don't think they stand much of a chance. The toss will win logistics wise an are more adaptable than the covonent. In fact the only unit I believe the covonent has that is not just a soldier is a spec ops elite, one either cloaked or with a jetpack. When you thing of the fact that toss got the same cloaking tech, observers to act as spies, the ability to warp in reinforcments wherever, psionics, an superior resources, Protoss hands down.


The fact that most protoss have the ability to sense an opponents move before it happens lends them a hug advantage. A zealot is probably on par with the Arbiter

Nah. I'd say a zealot is on par with an elite. Zeratul is on par with the Arbiter.

[Seppl]

Remember that the Protoss have dark archons with mind control. The possibilities are endless...

[Selrahc]

The fact that most protoss have the ability to sense an opponents move before it happens lends them a hug advantage.

A hug advantage has got to be one of the most adorable uses for precognition. :smallsmile:

[Croverus]

Ok, are we using RTSrules or FPS rules?

Cause in the Halo Wars RTS, a single Scarab could destroy a lot!

[KingOfLaughter]

A hug advantage has got to be one of the most adorable uses for precognition. :smallsmile:

lmao just cause of how awesome that was I'm not correcting it.

[The Glyphstone]

Ok, are we using RTSrules or FPS rules?

Cause in the Halo Wars RTS, a single Scarab could destroy a lot!

Neither. We're comparing background and fluff, because game rules are impossible to make analogues of.

[KillItWithFire]

Even if we go by RTS rules.... Protoss were designe around this style of play and I still see wars as a bit of a "passing fancy" for Bungie.

To Croverus: Void ray vs Scarab, void ray wins

[KingOfLaughter]

Neither. We're comparing background and fluff, because game rules are impossible to make analogues of.

Da, even in fluff scarabs can destroy a lot, but they'd most likely fall to the colossus, if not the immortals or reavers first. (Immortal shields FTW :D)

[Da'Shain]

Nah. I'd say a zealot is on par with an elite. Zeratul is on par with the Arbiter.I'd put Zealots pretty solidly above Elites in terms of combat prowess, considering they're basically Jedi with shields instead of bolt deflecting blades.

[Croverus]

Da, even in fluff scarabs can destroy a lot, but they'd most likely fall to the colossus, if not the immortals or reavers first. (Immortal shields FTW :D)

Ah yeah, the Immortals.

What about the old school covenenant Dropships? I've never seen one get destroyed, lol.

[The Glyphstone]

I'd put Zealots pretty solidly above Elites in terms of combat prowess, considering they're basically Jedi with shields instead of bolt deflecting blades.

I think that's giving the Zealots too much credit, and lowering them at the same time. They're trained warriors from a warrior culture, as opposed to martial diplomats...and at the same time, combat precognition can't be an auto-win for them any more than it is for Jedi - they lose fights against Zerg or Terrans, neither of whom have precognition (Reference, Fenix from SC1, who loses in a 2-1 fight against hydralisks, though having his psi-blades fritz out couldn't have helped).

[Starbuck_II]

What about the fact that a sword strike from Halo sword kills.
Zealots don't always kill when they strike.

This highly favors Halo sword.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Protoss have an enormous logistical advantage. Being able to teleport units/buildings/spaceships pretty much at will could be pretty damn close to an autowin since it allows you to create local force superiority anywhere you damn well please. However, I'm not sure whether this is enough to offset their numerical disadvantage. As far as I understand, Protoss are limited to a small amount of not too densely populated worlds while Covenant have a giant empire built for war.

The thing is, even though they probably win on the ground, the two forces are matched closely enough for 'Toss to take losses vs. Covies. Resulting in a war of attrition, which Covenant should win.

[Demon 997]

On a full scale war the only things that really matter are logistics and industrial output. The protoss have logistics down, how are the respective industries?

[AmberVael]

I think that's giving the Zealots too much credit, and lowering them at the same time. They're trained warriors from a warrior culture, as opposed to martial diplomats...and at the same time, combat precognition can't be an auto-win for them any more than it is for Jedi - they lose fights against Zerg or Terrans, neither of whom have precognition (Reference, Fenix from SC1, who loses in a 2-1 fight against hydralisks, though having his psi-blades fritz out couldn't have helped).

I wouldn't compare zealots to jedi either, but at the same time, think of who you are comparing them to.

Your common terran marine is carrying around some really expensive and potent equipment by that time, from what I can tell- power armor and automatic, armor piercing guns that fire hypersonic metal spikes.

And zerglings may be really weak in the grand scheme of Starcraft, but they can tear said marines into pieces in close combat (and the Hydralisks are even worse- imagine anyone trying to take down a spine firing, bladed armed, armored monster without a weapon.) Zerg are space monsters that can tear through armor and ships with their bare, biological forms.


Elites, on the other hand, are shown to be killed by unarmored marines with some weapons that honestly don't seem too far advanced from our own. They're probably better, but they're not hypersonic spike shooters.


Honestly, I just think the Protoss are just too advanced. While they might not win without losses, or even have the proper numbers to take down the majority of a Covenant fleet... they might not have to, given the sheer number of options they have against a foe whose tech is so inadequate in comparison.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Nitpick: most current weapons are, in fact, hypersonic. Only some rounds are subsonic and usually they're specifically made to be subsonic (for stealth or for better stopping power vs. penetration, for example). So using the term to describe marines' rifles as awesome is kinda moot. Not to say they're bad guns though.

PS: I'm curious. Is there forcefield technology in StarCraft? Like Star Trek type impenetrable to physical objects forcefields... I'm just thinking that these would be an instant win against Zerg, who have no energy weapons.

[averagejoe]

Remember that the Protoss have dark archons with mind control. The possibilities are endless...

Especially if you allow them to mind control an entire ship in one go, as they can in game. That's probably unreasonable, as it's a gaming abstraction, but at the same time it offers a lot when everyone doesn't auto-recognize enemies on sight.

Also, maelstrom is quite potent against pretty much everything.


PS: I'm curious. Is there forcefield technology in StarCraft? Like Star Trek type impenetrable to physical objects forcefields... I'm just thinking that these would be an instant win against Zerg, who have no energy weapons.

I think that's what the 'toss shields are. They can't be touched by physical objects until they go down. The only thing is that they have limited power.

[AmberVael]

Nitpick: most current weapons are, in fact, hypersonic. Only some rounds are subsonic and usually they're specifically made to be subsonic (for stealth or for better stopping power vs. penetration, for example). So using the term to describe marines' rifles as awesome is kinda moot. Not to say they're bad guns though.

PS: I'm curious. Is there forcefield technology in StarCraft? Like Star Trek type impenetrable to physical objects forcefields... I'm just thinking that these would be an instant win against Zerg, who have no energy weapons.

Ah. Well chalk that up to my complete noobness in terms of guns, which I'll freely admit.

It sounded fancy to me. :smalltongue:

You know, advertising normal guns as hypersonic spike shooters would seem to be be accurate, but would also be waaay more interesting...

[Calmness]

Protoss would lose if they have a civil war, as is typical of them. >_>

[The Glyphstone]

What about the fact that a sword strike from Halo sword kills.
Zealots don't always kill when they strike.

This highly favors Halo sword.

Pretty sure that also counts as a game abstraction, though.


Protoss have an enormous logistical advantage. Being able to teleport units/buildings/spaceships pretty much at will could be pretty damn close to an autowin since it allows you to create local force superiority anywhere you damn well please. However, I'm not sure whether this is enough to offset their numerical disadvantage. As far as I understand, Protoss are limited to a small amount of not too densely populated worlds while Covenant have a giant empire built for war.

The thing is, even though they probably win on the ground, the two forces are matched closely enough for 'Toss to take losses vs. Covies. Resulting in a war of attrition, which Covenant should win.

This is why the 'Toss make such extensive use of robotics and drones, though. If need be, they can just swamp the Covenant in unmanned units - and that's on top of the bit where both empires are at the peak of their strength, giving the Protoss a whole bunch of worlds to draw their population from.


Protoss would lose if they have a civil war, as is typical of them. >_>

Wouldn't the same happen to the Covenant? Their society is a whole mass of disparate species 'united' by religion and strict control by the High Prophets - if a Covenant civil war erupted, the Covenant would effectively cease to exist.

[Calmness]

Wouldn't the same happen to the Covenant? Their society is a whole mass of disparate species 'united' by religion and strict control by the High Prophets - if a Covenant civil war erupted, the Covenant would effectively cease to exist.
Oh, so they are crazy religious fanatics, prone to infighting like the Protoss?

[AmberVael]

Oh, so they are crazy religious fanatics, prone to infighting like the Protoss?

Yes.
Refer to half of Halo 2's plotline, which basically highlights both traits. :smalltongue:

[KillItWithFire]

PS: I'm curious. Is there forcefield technology in StarCraft? Like Star Trek type impenetrable to physical objects forcefields... I'm just thinking that these would be an instant win against Zerg, who have no energy weapons.

the protoss sentry can make a force field maybe 20ft by 20ft? hard to tell with in game graphics. Anyway, nothing can pass through this field if its on the goun. No weapons no people. (Though it doesn't last long.) Is this what you were looking for.

[The Glyphstone]

Oh, so they are crazy religious fanatics, prone to infighting like the Protoss?

Well, the Covenant are more like a bunch of different races united by once philosophy, and if they turned on each other, it'd be devastating. The Protoss are one race who tend to take dogmatic schisms waaaaay too seriously. But the end result is pretty much the same, losing.

[KingOfLaughter]

Also if a protoss mother ship leads a space assault the covenant won't know what hit them. Just one large ship floating seemingly alone, and suddenly hundreds of interceptors come flying out of nowhere. Also, land a warp prism on high charity and start warping in everything you can, no high charity = no prophets, no prophets = no leadership, no leadership = complete and utter downfall.

[The Glyphstone]

Also if a protoss mother ship leads a space assault the covenant won't know what hit them. Just one large ship floating seemingly alone, and suddenly hundreds of interceptors come flying out of nowhere. Also, land a warp prism on high charity and start warping in everything you can, no high charity = no prophets, no prophets = no leadership, no leadership = complete and utter downfall.

That's out of the terms of the Vs. though (the second scenario). The battlefield is a single, unnamed planet, with vital significance to both sides for an indeterminate reason (enough that they won't glass it under any circumstances, but total war is good otherwise).

[KingOfLaughter]

That's out of the terms of the Vs. though (the second scenario). The battlefield is a single, unnamed planet, with vital significance to both sides for an indeterminate reason (enough that they won't glass it under any circumstances, but total war is good otherwise).

Yes but I assumed space domination would be a vital factor in gaining the planet.

[The Glyphstone]

Yes but I assumed space domination would be a vital factor in gaining the planet.

Space domination, yes. Conducting surgical decapitation strikes against the other side's leadership on an entirely different planet is adding a separate dimension beyond the original vs. terms. The Mothership example is fine, it's the 'send a warp prism to high charity and murderize the high prophets' that I was commenting on.

[KingOfLaughter]

Space domination, yes. Conducting surgical decapitation strikes against the other side's leadership on an entirely different planet is adding a separate dimension beyond the original vs. terms. The Mothership example is fine, it's the 'send a warp prism to high charity and murderize the high prophets' that I was commenting on.

When I stated full force I meant that the whole fleet would show up, and high charity more often then not leads the fleet.

(This also brings in about 40 Covenant Super Carriers captained by the covenants best and brightest)

[The Glyphstone]

When I stated full force I meant that the whole fleet would show up, and high charity more often then not leads the fleet.

(This also brings in about 40 Covenant Super Carriers captained by the covenants best and brightest)

Hm. Clearly I'm behind on my Halo knowledge then, because I thought High Charity was a planet. It's a ship?

[KingOfLaughter]

Hm. Clearly I'm behind on my Halo knowledge then, because I thought High Charity was a planet. It's a ship?

Yea, it's a ship I believe about the size of our Moon? Not quite sure let me go find some scale on it.

Edit: Here's a photo for you.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/halo/images/6/61/HighCharity-scale.gif

Double Edit: The Wiki Page! (http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/High_Charity)

[Mikeavelli]

On a full scale war the only things that really matter are logistics and industrial output. The protoss have logistics down, how are the respective industries?

The Protoss had their home world overrun by the Zerg, and haven't slowed their war machine down at all. It actually seems to be getting stronger as they start calling up all their old resources. Sorta've like a psychic-space-elf "Let's Get Dangerous" deal.

Also, the diameter of our moon is about 10x that size. (http://www.google.com/search?q=diameter+of+the+moon&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)

[KingOfLaughter]

I thought it was larger. :D

[G-Man Graves]

Let's remember, High Charity crashed into the earth with no ill affects. If something the size of the moon crashed into earth, we would have bigger problems than the teleporty hole thing Truth was after.

[KingOfLaughter]

Let's remember, High Charity crashed into the earth with no ill affects. If something the size of the moon crashed into earth, we would have bigger problems than the teleporty hole thing Truth was after.

I do not remember this... I think I might...Give me a few to go look it up...

Edit: If you mean Halo 3 Level floodgate, it's just a covviie Battle cruiser, not High Charity.

[Killer Angel]

Protoss at their peak, with all the units and tech and PSI powers developed, are simply devastating.

Their main weakness, is that they're slow to develope at their full potential: remove this weakness, and it's almost certainly game over.

[Talkkno]

Zealot>>>>Elite

"As the words left his lips Tassadar did the last thing Raynor would have expected--he ran. The Executor turned on his heel and did a graceful sideways leap, spinning down the hill in a smooth cartwheel motion and landing erect a good hundred feet from the base of the hill. The other protoss had apparently responded to some silent command because during their exchange they had crept silently down the hill as well, and now they were all grouped around their High Templar leader. Without another word Tassadar turned and led his Zealots at a full run around the hill and into the higher mountains that loomed beyond. The protoss moved so quickly that Raynor barely had time to register their departure before they had vanished from view. "
-Starcraft Queen of Blades chapter 9

A few indications on how agile and speedy the Protoss are. First thing here is Tassadar's leap, now it doesn't say exactly how far he leapt, but seeing as how he was on the hill when he jumped and landed at least 30 meters from the base of the hill, we get some idea. That's no insignificant feat. Of course, getting anything concrete on this is going to be impossible, because we don't know how high up he was when he leapt compared to the actual ground level. Still, he quite clearly posesses superhuman abilities.

The second thing that's worthy of note is the speed of the Protoss as they run away. Raynor barely has time to register their departure before they've already disappeared from view. There's no solid indication on distance here either, of course. But ‘higher mountains that loomed beyond’ doesn’t exactly seem to be a stone’s throw away. But again, it's quite safe to conclude this is above normal human standards given Raynor's reaction to the run.

Quite frankly, playing around with the numbers on the above gets crazy results. Assume for a second that ‘the mountains that loomed beyond’ is a mere 100 meters away, that would still mean that the Protoss dashed almost at 100 meters per second, unless Raynor has exceptionally poor reflexes. And what if the mountains were something like 1,000 meters away? I'm sure you see the point.

"Raynor saw four warriors close in on an ultralisks, each targeting a leg, and slice the massive zerg to pieces before it could bring its large scythe-tusks to bear.

One of the hydralisks reared up and hissed loudly as it turned and slashed at a protoss warrior, leaving a visible gash across his armored chest. The sound carried across the plains, and to Raynor it had a clear note of desperation. The zerg was calling for help! The protoss stabbed forward with one hand and swept the other in a wide outward arc, severing the hydralisk’s limb and then impaling it through the head, and the hydralisk’s cry faded, but Raynor could still hear the grating voice echoing and knew its warning had gone out. "
Starcraft Queen of Blades Chapter 10
Some zealot on zerg action. We're talking about a successful ambush on a smallish brood, so things weren't pretty for the zerg. These quotes give some indication on how effective psi-blades are against zerg as well. Even larger critters like Ultralisks don't seem to have enough armor to stop them.




Taken from Spacebattles
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=134193&highlight=protoss

[Gullintanni]

Zealot>>>>Elite


You're not giving Elites nearly enough credit. In the book Halo: The Fall of Reach, a Spartan (can't remember which, it's been a while) grapples an average Elite and loses. The Spartan has to flee. Keep in mind that the Spartan is wearing a 2 ton suit of powered armor than can rip through metal bear handed.

Factor in equivalent and fast charging shielding, ranged weaponry and what you have is an opponent who can rip through flesh and metal with ease, shred shielding with plasma fire and close with an energy sword.

The resulting combat is unshielded zealot vs shielded elite. None of this adjusts for potential armor permutations and mods that elites are capable of using including cloaking which are among some units standard issue.

On a probability scale, Zealots < Elites. They simply don't have the diversity of weapons or physical strength that an Elite does. There's a reason that Energy Swords in the Halo games are 1 hit kills, shielding and all.

On speed: Spartan armor enhances speed significantly. It's a powered suit after all. Elites can keep up. There's not as great a gap in Zealot and Elites speed as one might suggest.

Overall however; Protoss have this in the bag owing specifically to their ability to move forces. If you assume 100% of all the covenant are present and 100% of all Protoss are present, then there's potential win for the Covenant in there, but I'd still give this to the Toss.

Frankly, the only reason the Protoss aren't the dominant species in Starcraft is because they're so slow (costly) to mobilize. This is an abstraction and in all likelihood, their ability to move forces would not suffer from that limit.

EDIT:as I suspected, the Spartan in question is John 117, Master Chief. The BEST Spartan loses to an average Elite. Elites really are portrayed as still being strictly better than Spartans. Granted in this scenario, the Chief was caught somewhat off guard, but the point is still valid.

[Talkkno]

You're not giving Elites nearly enough credit. In the book Halo: The Fall of Reach, a Spartan (can't remember which, it's been a while) grapples an average Elite and loses. The Spartan has to flee. Keep in mind that the Spartan is wearing a 2 ton suit of powered armor than can rip through metal bear handed.




I just noted at the very least, zealots are capable of 100 meter dash in a second.
Here's how fast Spartans are which are comprable.
"The Chief and his team sprinted up the half-kilometer sandstone slope in thirty-two seconds flat."
-The Fall of Reach, p.4
On a flat-out run, we're talking about 60 km/h or so

Not at all comparable in terms of speed at all.

[Gullintanni]

I just noted at the very least, zealots are capable of 100 meter dash in a second.
Here's how fast Spartans are which are comprable.
"The Chief and his team sprinted up the half-kilometer sandstone slope in thirty-two seconds flat."
-The Fall of Reach, p.4
On a flat-out run, we're talking about 60 km/h or so

Not at all comparable in terms of speed at all.

The problem is that there's no evidence that the author is being literal. The author didn't state that zealots move 100 meters per second, only that they moved fast. The author is probably being hyperbolic.

In any event, the author doesn't offer concrete distance of travel, or speed of movement. You can't quote specific numbers based on no numbers.

[Dienekes]

The problem is that there's no evidence that the author is being literal. The author didn't state that zealots move 100 meters per second, only that they moved fast. The author is probably being hyperbolic.

True but an upgraded elite can still pseudo-teleport in game. Really, I'm definitely giving them the speed against elites here.

[Gullintanni]

True but an upgraded Zealot can still pseudo-teleport in game. Really, I'm definitely giving them the speed against elites here.

*Fixed for you.

Agreed, Zealot is faster. But not blindingly so. That's my point. Given that the Elite has precisely EVERY other tactical advantage, unless the Zealot's are overwhelmingly faster than the Elites, then I'd give it to Elites on a 6-7 times out of ten.

Also, assuming that every Zealot is fully upgraded is a bit like assuming that every Elite is Honour Guard, or Special Forces or Command level. The instantaneous and unilateral distribution of upgrades in Starcraft is an abstraction as well.

[Talkkno]

The problem is that there's no evidence that the author is being literal. The author didn't state that zealots move 100 meters per second, only that they moved fast. The author is probably being hyperbolic.


Are we really go into a author's intent argument here? I mean that's just going go nowhere.
Zealot sheilds are far stronger then Elite Shields, elite shields can be penerated by UNSC firearms, where Terran Marines guns do exactly squat agasin't zealots. Marine's being gun being far stronger the UNSC firearms. I can provide quotes where a zealot basically gets shot at my a dozen marines with absolutely no effect as they chopped to pieces. I can also also provide quotes to prove Marine guns are stronger then UNSC ones well.

[Gullintanni]

Are we really go into a author's intent argument here? I mean that's just going go nowhere. 1

Zealot sheilds are far stronger then Elite Shields, elite shields can be penerated by UNSC firearms, where Terran Marines guns do exactly squat agasin't zealots. Marine's being gun being far stronger the UNSC firearms. I can provide quotes where a zealot basically gets shot at my a dozen marines with absolutely no effect as they chopped to pieces. I can also also provide quotes to prove Marine guns are stronger then UNSC ones well. 2

1. That depends on whether or not you're going to quote hard numbers without any actual data.

2. And this is guilty of approximating in game mechanics to reality. Again, there is no data outside of game mechanics and balancing issues to really sell this. On the other hand, there is specific evidence that UNSC weapons are UNDERPOWERED in the Halo series in order to promote balance.

exhibit a) It takes more than 5 assault rifle rounds to the skull to down a marine without a helmet.

exhibit b) shooting a marine in the face with a plasma pistol does not result in instantaneous blindness.

exhibit c) we're not discussing the UNSC, we're discussing the covenant. That means plasma, not ballistics.

[Talkkno]

1. That depends on whether or not you're going to quote hard numbers without any actual data.
Dispute how I calced it then, I feel the approximations are fairly reasonable, if you wish to dispute that, then feel free too.



. And this is guilty of approximating in game mechanics to reality. Again, there is no data outside of game mechanics and balancing issues to really sell this. On the other hand, there is specific evidence that UNSC weapons are UNDERPOWERED in the Halo series in order to promote balance.

I was planning to quote specific fluffly bits from novels to prove my point...

[Gullintanni]

Dispute how I calced it then, I feel the approximations are fairly reasonable, if you wish to dispute that, then feel free too.

Without another word Tassadar turned and led his Zealots at a full run around the hill and into the higher mountains that loomed beyond.



It's simple. If the distance the author set out is in fact 100 meters, there is a vast chasm in speed between that assumption, and whether or not it's 50 or 30 meters. For perspective, I have a hill behind my house that I can circle and disappear behind in under 5 seconds. This does not mean I can run really fast. The distance just isn't particularly far. In addition, if your zealots movement took 2 seconds instead of one, you're looking at zealots moving half as fast. If you want to assign an arbitrary speed, you need to have concrete distances.

Not disputing the strength of Terran rifles. The problem is that the rules of an RTS dictate that everything is tougher than it is strong. Is there any quote in a novel you can provide that 12 marines sustain fire with 100% accuracy on a Zealot for a couple of seconds without killing them?

For perspective consider that Zealots in the game can also weather artillery shelling in the form of siege tanks. This is not a point in defense of the realism of the game's health and durability scaling.

[Talkkno]

Not disputing the strength of Terran rifles. The problem is that the rules of an RTS dictate that everything is tougher than it is strong. Is there any quote in a novel you can provide that 12 marines sustain fire with 100% accuracy on a Zealot for a couple of seconds without killing them?


Not off hand, but I will when I get back home. But here's something that might help.

"His real security, however, came from touching the control on his belt buckle that sealed the room with a force field that couldn’t be broken down by anything short of a large explosive device, and not necessarily then."
-Page 86 of Starcraft Ghost:Nova
Keep this is mind this is a mere Terran device, so a Protoss one ought to be stronger.

[Gullintanni]

Not off hand, but I will when I get back home. But here's something that might help.

"His real security, however, came from touching the control on his belt buckle that sealed the room with a force field that couldn’t be broken down by anything short of a large explosive device, and not necessarily then."
-Page 86 of Starcraft Ghost:Nova
Keep this is mind this is a mere Terran device, so a Protoss one ought to be stronger.

Is there any mention of what generated the energy field? Is it drawing on a man portable power source? Or for better context, a zealot portable power source? Or is it drawing off of a generator located within a building which has the freedom to be as large as it wants? If so, then you're approximating a shield that might be as strong as something you find on a Dragoon or a Scout or even a Carrier to that of a Zealot.

Please provide context for your quote.

[KillItWithFire]

Protoss win because they have Frank Sinatra on their side. (Ever tried spelling Artanis backwards?)

[mangosta71]

What about the fact that a sword strike from Halo sword kills.
Zealots don't always kill when they strike.

This highly favors Halo sword.

The dark templars' weapons one-shot marines and zerglings. That makes them approximately equivalent to Halo swords. And dark templars are invisible. Why should the protoss bring in zealots at all if they have access to DTs? They can slaughter the entire Covenant ground force with a platoon.

Nitpick: most current weapons are, in fact, hypersonic. Only some rounds are subsonic and usually they're specifically made to be subsonic (for stealth or for better stopping power vs. penetration, for example).
Nitpick: Hypersonic specifically means "between 5 and 10 times the speed of sound". Modern rifle rounds have a muzzle velocity around 2.5 times the speed of sound. They are supersonic, but not hypersonic. The only hypersonic weapons in the world that I'm aware of are experimental railguns.

[Talkkno]

The dark templars' weapons one-shot marines and zerglings. That makes them approximately equivalent to Halo swords. And dark templars are invisible. Why should the protoss bring in zealots at all if they have access to DTs? They can slaughter the entire Covenant ground force with a platoon.


And I've already noted Zealot's swords make a mockery of even the sheer size and bulk of a Ultralisk.

[Maxios]

The Conevant would make a giant spire (like the one you had to blow up in Reach) appear, which, if destroyed, reveals the Conevant's large space fleet

[Lord_Gareth]

Ah, the Protoss. The following information is given using only information up to Starcraft: Brood War, before SCII adds insult to injury.

Air Power: The Protoss are experts at space and air combat. Their scout ships are the equivalent of fighters for other races, and they're designed to engage in ship-to-ship combat with other fighters and to attack capital ships en masse. Their Arbiters can cloak entire fleets and teleport reinforcements directly to the front; the power of their Carriers requires no introduction. The Covenant barely knows how to use their own technology, and their weapons are clumsy and slow compared to the missiles and plasma-bullets (projectile delivery, plasma load) used by the Protoss, and they have never traditionally fielded large amounts of air power on the surface with any kind of efficiency. Game to the 'Toss here.

Ground Combat: This one is actually somewhat closer. The different capabilities of the various Covenant species do lend them an advantage, and those Gravity Hammers aren't anything to laugh at. Sadly, the Protoss are capable of great subtlety, and they also tend to favor unmanned drones. The Covenant has no easy answer for the Reaver factories, especially without control of the skies, and Dark Templar warriors make mockery of just about anything they come across in the absence of cloak-penetration technology. Unlike with the case of Ghosts vs. the UNSC's detection tech, the Covenant don't invent or innovate, which means that the Dark Templars can expect to enjoy their advantage indefinitely. Slain Zealots just come back to haunt you as Dragoons, which are not fun to try and deal with (especially when sized to actual scale) and are often deployed in great numbers, since Zealots fervently wish to die in battle and not in a bed. Game: Protoss.

[Maxios]

Using their overwhelming Grunt Hordes, Hunters, as well as Brutes, the Conevant would win a ground battle.
After all, in the Hard [in Halo] difficulty (or legendary, can't remember which) it says this is the way Halo is meant to be played, and the enemies are very, very, tough.

[Lord_Gareth]

Using their overwhelming Grunt Hordes, Hunters, as well as Brutes, the Conevant would win a ground battle.
After all, in the Hard [in Halo] difficulty (or legendary, can't remember which) it says this is the way Halo is meant to be played, and the enemies are very, very, tough.

For one man, alone, using human technology and Covenant-inspired shielding? Of course they are. They're fielding an actual army. Thing is, the 'Toss bring armies too, and as I asserted above, their mastery of the skies is not likely to be challenged any time soon.

I'd be more interested to hear if the Covenant could survive invasion by the Zerg. No Flood, though. No need to involve Flerg in this.

[Maxios]

If glassing WAS allowed, the 'toss would be turned to ash. When the Conevant is actually using tactics for once, they can be a very dangerous foe. In a halo novel, a grunt actually tore about a couple soldiers. The only reason in the games you could take down the Conevant easily, is because you're a super soldier.

[Dienekes]

Using their overwhelming Grunt Hordes, Hunters, as well as Brutes, the Conevant would win a ground battle.
After all, in the Hard [in Halo] difficulty (or legendary, can't remember which) it says this is the way Halo is meant to be played, and the enemies are very, very, tough.

The problem comes in, SC gameplay is abstract. So we try to use fluff. And from a fluff standpoint, Zealots take your bullets better than Tony Montana. Also, of note. A Zealot is the basic unit of the Protoss forces.

Yeah, a Zealot's parallel is a freakin' Grunt.
Zealot > Grunt
Stalkers > Jackal
Archons > Brutes
Dark Templar > Elite
Sentries and High Templars laugh at your pitiful "physics"
Immortal > Hunter
Reaver > Wraith
but I'm thinking in all fairness
Colossus < Scarab

[Maxios]

Good point. But the Conevant makes up for it with the sheer number of soldiers. Grunts have been described as quick-breeding, each one having hundreds of 'lil Grunts

[AmberVael]

Good point. But the Conevant makes up for it with the sheer number of soldiers. Grunts have been described as quick-breeding, each one having hundreds of 'lil Grunts

Because of course, a small group of elite invisible psychic warriors will stand no chance against a horde of cowardly narcoleptic alien midgets. :smalltongue:

[Maxios]

Because of course, a small group of elite invisible psychic warriors will stand no chance against a horde of cowardly narcoleptic alien midgets. :smalltongue:

Good point :smalltongue:

[Mikeavelli]

This is bogged down worse than the Terran Dominion vs UNSC thread, where we argued about the relative merits of Marines vs. SPARTANS ignoring the gigantic advantage possessed by the rest of the Terran military.

Similarly, Elites and Zealots are easily close enough to be comparable to each other, but Elites are pretty much the best ground forces the Covenant has, compared to the giant mess of units the Protoss have access to. Even better since this one is including the full might of the Protoss military instead of just Pre-brood war.

Dark Templar will rip the Elites apart - always active cloak superior to the active camouflage from the Halo games, Warp Blades powerful enough to kill marines in one hit even accounting for the "abstraction inherent in the game system," etc.


Edit: Added in to avoid double-posting, At a certain point, the limiting factor is no longer how fast grunts breed, but how many weapons can be produced in order to arm them effectively. There's a reason they march into battle with a Plasma Pistol and a "good luck, buddy."
[hr]

Interestingly, the idea of Flood vs. Zerg is the only one I think the Haloverse would win hands down. The Zerg successfully assaulted a single Xel'Naga worldship and... Kinda've forgot about them afterwards. SCII implies the Xel'Naga have had the whole thing under control up until the point Kerrigan showed up.

Meanwhile, the Flood in the ancient past made the Forerunners (who I see as at least equivalent to the Xel'Naga) **** bricks and die. Even wiping out all the life in the Universe wasn't enough to stop the Flood.

[KingOfLaughter]

If glassing WAS allowed, the 'toss would be turned to ash. When the Conevant is actually using tactics for once, they can be a very dangerous foe. In a halo novel, a grunt actually tore about a couple soldiers. The only reason in the games you could take down the Conevant easily, is because you're a super soldier.

It would take a covenant super carrier (Aka the ones that prophets have) an entire year to glass a planet the size of earth. (As stated in Halseys Journal which is published and written by Bungie)

Motherships can glass entire planets in hours. (As is stated in various fluff where the protoss glass entire zerg infested planets in hours with a single ship)

[Flame Gryphon]

Short Answer; Protoss, every time.

Long Answer; We're comparing Elites, one of the covenants most powerful species, to Zealots, the Protoss' weakest and most base unit. Should there be any argument here? If so, here's my basic diagram;

1. The Covenant are so powerful because they are facing base, weak human forces. When they start facing Flood, they're destroyed. The Protoss are not only facing humans, and they still can destroy their enemies.

2. Psi-Powers. All I have to say.

3. Cloaking; both Covenant and Protoss have cloaking, but the Protoss have measures against said cloaking, while Covenant do not.

4. They both have plasma weapons, however as far as we can see the Protoss' do not overheat.

5. Energy swords; Anyone who has played Halo knows that in the wrong hands, energy swords are more harmful then helpful. All you have to do is keep backing up, and blasting the enemy away. The Zealots have a dash ability to close in on the enemy. Also, Halo swords run out of power, Starcraft swords have only been shown (to my knowledge) to do so once.

6. The only possible way the Covenant could win would be to glass the planet, but what about the Protoss shield powers? Could they not create a shield to block said glassing? If not, I know how they could get out; it's called teleporting back to their planet.

[KingOfLaughter]

5. Energy swords; Anyone who has played Halo knows that in the wrong hands, energy swords are more harmful then helpful. All you have to do is keep backing up, and blasting the enemy away. The Zealots have a dash ability to close in on the enemy. Also, Halo swords run out of power, Starcraft swords have only been shown (to my knowledge) to do so once.


Also plasma swords can be knocked out of the Elites hands, good luck knocking a Psi Blade out of the Zealots armor.

Also Scarabs? Just FYi I'd assume the covenant at full power to have at least 100 scarabs. Not to mention one super scarab (Halo Wars) plus locusts (Mini anti vehicle scarabs)

Locusts are probably easy kills for Immortals (Better shields and most likely higher damage)

Scarabs, well if nothing actually manages to board them, Protoss are entirely willing to kamikaze and a scout is no doubt bigger then a Pelican which have been noted to crash destroy Scarabs.

As for the super scarab? Void Rays, lots of em.

[Lord_Gareth]

Interestingly, the idea of Flood vs. Zerg is the only one I think the Haloverse would win hands down. The Zerg successfully assaulted a single Xel'Naga worldship and... Kinda've forgot about them afterwards. SCII implies the Xel'Naga have had the whole thing under control up until the point Kerrigan showed up.

Meanwhile, the Flood in the ancient past made the Forerunners (who I see as at least equivalent to the Xel'Naga) **** bricks and die. Even wiping out all the life in the Universe wasn't enough to stop the Flood.

Thing is, with Flood vs. Zerg, is that the Zerg are combat-ready, have had millennia to perfect their phlebetium-weaponry (which is how I'm handwaving the whole problem of animal vs. tank), and are lead by an intelligent chain of command that is absolutely loyal to its master. The question is not, "Who would destroy the other?" but rather, "Who comes out on top of the assimilated whole?" and I feel the Zerg would be the ones in control once the Flerg are done forming.

[Da'Shain]

I think that's giving the Zealots too much credit, and lowering them at the same time. They're trained warriors from a warrior culture, as opposed to martial diplomats...and at the same time, combat precognition can't be an auto-win for them any more than it is for Jedi - they lose fights against Zerg or Terrans, neither of whom have precognition (Reference, Fenix from SC1, who loses in a 2-1 fight against hydralisks, though having his psi-blades fritz out couldn't have helped).I was talking in terms of capabilities, not outlook. Zealots have what is essentially superspeed in terms of ground movement, psi-blades that cut through most anything, limited precognition, psi-enhanced strength and fortitude, etc. About the only thing they don't have that Jedi do is telekinesis, and this seems to be because Zealots are actually fairly low on the psi-power food chain. They're also three meters tall and encased in armor and shields, which doesn't hurt.

They lose fights against Zerg and Terrans mainly because the latter two have much larger numbers to throw around, the same reason Jedi were losing the battle of Geonosis. Fenix's psi-blades fritzing out never made much sense to me, unless he's just supposed to be that exhausted from the earlier battle.

[lateresponse] [/ lateresponse]

[Felixc-91]

this was never a competition. i draw your attention to the difference in technology levels. in SC2 the notes your tech specialist's notes indicate that the protoss technology makes the Terran's in SC2 look like cave men. the covenant on the other hand have technology that they copied off a much more advanced race than them, which is still revers engineered by humanity about 500 from now after a few years of study. the protoss would slaughter, even if they were not allowed to use orbital bombardments and the covenant could.