Non-lethal Coup de Gras--Is it possible?

[ShriekingDrake]

Can a player who can only deal non-lethal damage perform a Coup de Gras? How about critical hits and sneak attacks?

[Yuki Akuma]

Why can they only deal nonlethal damage?

Anyway, yes, you can sneak attack and score critical hits with nonlethal damage. Not sure about coup de grace.

(Coup de gras means "blow of fat", by the way. Totally not what you meant.)

[Leecros]

coup de grace-by definition is "deathblow"

i'm not sure if you can do a coup de grace with nonlethal damage without nullifying its meaning

[Newbieshoes]

You can. If you have a means to deal subdual damage you can CDG with it.

[Shadows]

I don't think it's in the rules that you can, but I doubt that allowing them as a house rule would be broken.

[Spiryt]

Would only need redefining, I guess, since creature dies after successful CdG - if it's supposed to be non fatal stomping, I guess that dropping target to - 10 of non lethal damage would be all right.

[FelixG]

Well non lethal can turn into lethal with enough of it cant it? so I dont see why you could kill a person with it with a CDG

[Yuki Akuma]

Well non lethal can turn into lethal with enough of it cant it?

Nope.words

[FelixG]

Nope.words

Ah so it cant BUT



Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage
You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll.


You can turn a non lethal weapon lethal and do a CDG with it

[Escheton]

You can't coup de grace when taking a -4 to attack. It's a precision strike.
Normal autocrit subdual should work, so long as you have a means of dealing subdual dmg, like monks unarmed or with a sap.

[Spiryt]

You can turn a non lethal weapon lethal and do a CDG with it

That's why I assume that OP is not looking for CdG with nonlethal weapon, since it just means taking - 4, thus turning it into lethal damage, and killing the victim - but for making non lethal "version" - instantly punishing someone violently, so he isn't getting up, but without killing.

[FelixG]

You can't coup de grace when taking a -4 to attack. It's a precision strike.
Normal autocrit subdual should work, so long as you have a means of dealing subdual dmg, like monks unarmed or with a sap.



Coup de Grace
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).


Doesn't say anything in there about a penalty to your hit mattering in the slightest.

An unarmed strike coup could be as simple as snapping the enemies neck.

[Zeofar]

I think the question here is whether ShriekingDrake wants to make a Coup De Grace with nonlethal damage or if he wants to do a normal Coup De Grace with someone who could normally only do nonlethal damage.

[Ravens_cry]

I say . . . yes. But only with a sap or similar weapon that deals non-lethal damage by default, because you're not making an attack role so you can' t take -4 on it.
I believe you can make non-lethal sneak attack with a sap, so why not Coup de grâce? Is this RAW? I don't know and I don't care. As a player I have argued this, and as a DM I would allow it. It's not realistic, but then, neither is non-leathal damage to begin with.

[ShriekingDrake]

Thanks for the interest so far. I am sorry for having been cryptic. I have a ranger who has picked up a cursed sword. I cannot use any other weapon. Part of the curse is that the sword only deals nonlethal damage. I want to know whether, once I have an unconscious creature, I can deliver a death blow using CDG? The rules don't seem clear to me, especially with a type of damage called NONLETHAL, when CDG is all about dealing a LETHAL blow.

Many thanks.

[FelixG]

as I pointed out a non lethal weapon can do lethal damage with a -4, now, a coup de gras is an auto hit, so yes, you can do a lethal coup with a non lethal weapon.

Your GM may declare that as its a curse it cant make use of that rule though

[woodenbandman]

can't you use your foot instead?

[Grendus]

Beat them unconscious and have the evil or neutral character finish them off. Why do you need to deliver the killing stroke?

[Yuki Akuma]

If the sword is cursed not to deal lethal damage I think delivering a killing blow with it is ludicrous and against the spirit of the curse.

But yeah. You have feet, don't you? Unarmed strike.

[Spiryt]

You have everything to deliver CdG.

Although that's what I always wondered about cursed weapons - not using any other weapons seems nice idea - but how actually curse 'enforces' this?

Hand being stuck to the sword like with badly used epoxy is just too straightforward, and would cause 238 other problems.

So I would say that cursed weapons is more like psychological/mind screw or whatever effect, that whatever you do, you can't throw the sword away, and you always end wielding it in case of a fight in some weird way.

But you still have your body for your disposal.

[FelixG]

You have everything to deliver CdG.

Although that's what I always wondered about cursed weapons - not using any other weapons seems nice idea - but how actually curse 'enforces' this?

Hand being stuck to the sword like with badly used epoxy is just too straightforward, and would cause 238 other problems.

So I would say that cursed weapons is more like psychological/mind screw or whatever effect, that whatever you do, you can't throw the sword away, and you always end wielding it in case of a fight in some weird way.

But you still have your body for your disposal.

Might be a magical compulsion just to preform drop (free action) to make you drop any other weapon you attempt to hold for example

or it could magically propel weapons away from you to hilarious effect

[ShriekingDrake]

Most enlightening. Thanks.

[Nero24200]

By RAW you can't, though personally I wouldn't see an issue with a non-lethal version which only knocks the target unconcious rather than killing them.

[FelixG]

By RAW you can't, though personally I wouldn't see an issue with a non-lethal version which only knocks the target unconcious rather than killing them.

if you are able to coup them they are already helpless, knocking em out isnt going to do much :D

[ShriekingDrake]

if you are able to coup them they are already helpless, knocking em out isnt going to do much :D

Exactly. The question really is . . . once they are helpless, if the character is required to use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, can that character use that weapon to CdG. It seems not.

[Jack_Simth]

Nope.Well... it takes a rather absurd amount, but with *enough* nonlethal damage, unless the target is immune to starvation and thirst (or nonlethal damage), you can arrange for the target to never, ever get back up, just by applying nonlethal damage. You just have to, you know, apply enough nonlethal damage that they won't recover from it before they starve ....

[Spiryt]

if you are able to coup them they are already helpless, knocking em out isnt going to do much :D

Uh, then killing them also is not going to do much? :smallconfused:

CdG is, obviously, rule made to emphasis that disposing of helpless enemy is rather easy.

So if you want to kill, or rather knock him unconscious, before he, for example, wakes up - CdG.

[Jack_Simth]

if you are able to coup them they are already helpless, knocking em out isnt going to do much :D
That depends on how they became Helpless. Color Spray and Hold Person can both make someone Helpless, but it's a very good idea to apply something that'll last a bit longer in very short order.

[Cirrhosis]

while a sword dealing non-lethal damage could not, theoretically, deal enough damage through a coup de grace to kill someone, the target of the coup de grace is then subject to a fort (DC 10+the, in this case non-lethal, damage dealt) save to avoid death. that fort save is not death through damage, so dealing it through non-lethal damage wouldn't actually matter, would it? it would just make it harder.

[JordonKCall]

coup de grace-by definition is "deathblow"

i'm not sure if you can do a coup de grace with nonlethal damage without nullifying its meaning

A coup de grâce is a stoke/strike of mercy or more literally stroke of grace. USUALLY resulting in the death of its' targets. Non-lethal damage exists as option for players to deal with an enemy or enemies without having to kill or mortally wound them. It makes sense to allow this to occur unless as a GM you insist on them playing out the grapple, maintain, chokehold for turn after turn. It takes on average 3-6 seconds for a RNC (rear-naked choke) to disable an attacker. 6 seconds, 1 round? Sounds perfect to me. I guess in the end it'll always be up to the GM, but there's a very strong case for it.

- Jordon

[Deophaun]

Let's the say the curse prevents you from using absolutely any other item, improvised or otherwise, to deal lethal damage. You can still kill this person; all you need is three inches of water and you can drown them. As they're helpless from all the non-lethal damage, it's a done deal.

[The Viscount]

Well... it takes a rather absurd amount, but with *enough* nonlethal damage, unless the target is immune to starvation and thirst (or nonlethal damage), you can arrange for the target to never, ever get back up, just by applying nonlethal damage. You just have to, you know, apply enough nonlethal damage that they won't recover from it before they starve ....

Starvation and thirst deal nonlethal damage, so cannot kill you.

As for this sword that deals nonlethal and CdG, there's a suggestion that you can't CdG with nonlethal, but no explicit rules in CdG. Regeneration mentions that you cannot kill a regenerating creature with a weapon that would deal nonlethal damage. It seems logical to me to extrapolate that out, but extrapolation isn't rules.

[Beheld]

Answer: Yes you can totally Coup De Grace with a non lethal attack. What happens? You crit, and they make a Fort Save or die.

RAW: The Coup De Grace rules say nothing about not being able to use the attack when you can only do non-lethal.

Implementation in non-Cursed sword scenarios: You beat on a Troll for a bit, it is unconscious. Now you Coup De Grace it and it saves or dies, and you do this till it is dead.

EDIT: Apparently not: "An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage." So I guess you just have to drown trolls to death instead.

EDIT2: The Previous Edit is totally wrong: "A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace."

[Big Fau]

...This thread is old enough to be in 1st grade.

[Beheld]

...This thread is old enough to be in 1st grade.

Damn, I hate getting trolled by those yung Necromancers.

[Jack_Simth]

Starvation and thirst deal nonlethal damage, so cannot kill you.I didn't say it would kill them. Just that they wouldn't get back up. The nonlethal from starvation or thirst can't be healed until you get food or water (or a spell that says otherwise), and Regeneration explicitly doesn't apply to it. So if you hit someone with enough nonlethal that they won't get back up before the nonlethal from starvation or thirst exceeds their normal hit point allotment, then they don't get back up. They may not technically be dead in the D&D sense, but you can put them in a pine box, bury them, and few people will care about the difference.

[Calthropstu]

It is not possible RAW.

However, I have houseruled for all my games that you can. It follows all the same rules as a coup de grace, except the saving throw is to avoid falling unconcious rather than die.

[Yuki Akuma]

Did someone just... go to the last page of the forum and post in threads there?

Who does that?

[Beheld]

I feel bad because I accidentally gave incorrect information. Turns out you totally can coup de grace a regenerating creature with a weapon that does non-lethal damage, I'm not sure how I and the guy who first said that missed it, but the regeneration rules specifically lay out:

"A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace."

EDIT: Nevermind I'm dumb and still wrong, because then it says "can't be done with weapon that auto converts to non-lethal."