Hey look everyone, it's another Paladin thread!

[Ragitsu]

If a paladin was riding off to a place that may involve combat, but came upon a situation where selling their arms and armor would save a family from destitution, would you penalize the player if they opted for either route?

[Tvtyrant]

Is this a "make the Paladin fall no matter what he does thread" or a "this is something in my actual game" thread?

If its in game then why does the Paladin have no money? Did they spend every dime on weapons and armor? Why isn't the rest of the group helping in order to prevent the Paladin from getting killed?

[Gavinfoxx]

Why does he have no money? He can give them some supplies, and tell them about the nearest church that can take care of them, maybe?

It's the paladin's job to be the MAILED FIST of the church, remember that...

[Sang Real]

Would you penalize the player?
No. Leave that to angry NPCs.

[DeadManSleeping]

3rd option: be the Big Damn Hero and save them without giving up your weapons and armor. Because Good finds a way.

[Tam_OConnor]

Let me give a context: A young paladin with no lands, wielding her father's sword and wearing some chain with the rust just scrubbed off, is going on crusade, to kill the pagans/heretics/enemies of the faith. She passes by a farm, where the freeman of the place comes out to her and begs her to save his family from destitution.

Options:

A) The paladin removes her arms and armor, asks if the freeman can get a good price for them. If no, then she sells the gear herself, and gives the money to the farmer, assuming there are no local temples of her god. If yes, then she cuts herself a quarterstaff and goes off on crusade, trusting her faith to provide. She's demonstrating faith in her god, and humility by putting another before herself, which are hardly things to make a paladin fall.

B) The paladin refuses gently, but directs the freeman towards some other benevolent institution in the area. Depending on the importance of the crusade, the paladin may be displaying an excess of pride, thinking that she's an individual determinant in the success of the crusade. At the same time, though, as a paladin called to fight for her god, to diminish her own effectiveness is in some ways an insult to her god, to not commit herself fully. But the degree depends on how pressing the crusade is. It may be a minor sin, but not something worthy of a fall, by any measure.

C) The paladin asks why the freeman is destitute. Is this a systemic problem, because of oppressive taxes or the like? Or did a business venture fail? If it's something the paladin can deal with (quickly, since the crusade beckons), then she deals with it, and carries on. If it isn't, she makes a mental note, tells the freeman that she'll be back, or send someone, and goes off on crusade, telling someone with the authority to fix the problem. Paladins don't exist in a vacuum. Even if it's just her and her god, there's a hierarchy. Work with it.

So, in brief, no penalty, but such a situation would say an awful lot about what kind of paladin they were.

[Sillycomic]

Really, so a paladin could potentially fall every time he passes a homeless person and doesn't take the shirt off his own back to help?

Come on. There are demons kidnapping little children, and you're going to penalize a paladin for not helping in soup kitchens?


First of all, most armor and arms for a paladin would either be family heirlooms or equipment given to them by the church, for the sole purpose of dealing with church business (or upgrades of said equipment). If he decides to go pawning it off whenever he sees a little girl who wants some bread, then I would suggest that could likely make the paladin fall.

(seriously, if your god saw you do something THAT stupid, he would deny you your powers)

At the very least it will get him kicked out of whatever order he's in. What use is a paladin if he has no equipment?

That would get you a destitute paladin... which would ironically cause another paladin to feel sorry for him, and sell all of his weapons and armor to help.

[Tam_OConnor]

On the other hand, don't forget that Int is a dump stat for paladins. Punishing stupidity would result in not too many paladins left. *Shakes fist at point-buy and MAD*

[Sillycomic]

Although, perhaps that explains why there's not a lot of paladins running around....


And why there's so many destitute people (all fallen paladins who sold their equipment)

[Ragitsu]

On the other hand, don't forget that Int is a dump stat for paladins. Punishing stupidity would result in not too many paladins left. *Shakes fist at point-buy and MAD*

And Wisdom?

[Runestar]

And that's why whenever I go out, I always carry some coins along with me in case I get mobbed by students with donation tins. :smalltongue:

That said, would it be possible to prioritise the main quest, and return to help out or send them some money/supplies later on, when you get some gold from your cut of the treasure?

Or is this "If you don't help out now, they are going to be dragged off into the nine hells 5 minutes later" kinda scenario? :smallconfused:

[woodenbandman]

poor people are not always besieged by evil.

[SimperingToad]

Let the paladin sell his horse and walk. Now, if it's his poke-steed, that's not gonna happen. There are other things a paladin carries, or should be carrying (such as money and food) which could be given or sold as well.

There is also the consideration of what did they do to make themselves destitute? Bad harvest? Or, gambling?

Is the destination of the paladin an immediate need? Or, is it just because he wants to go there?

There are also times when a paladin has no ability to aid immediately, or cannot if his presence is required elsewhere in all haste. Nothing saying he cannot return when the crisis is over, or he may even ride to the nearest temple and request aid for the people. Lots of options depending on the situation.

[Supercomputers]

What use is a paladin if he has no equipment?

S/he could potentially survive being dumped in a pool of acid with acid breathing sharks by hobgoblins for the entertainment of an insane lich, following that escape from his/her prison cell, poke said lich's chief cleric's eye out, kill said lich's chief cleric's protégé and lose said lich's phylactery in the sewers under the lich's city.

That'll probably never ever happen but it is possible.

[Strife Warzeal]

S/he could potentially survive being dumped in a pool of acid with acid breathing sharks by hobgoblins for the entertainment of an insane lich, following that escape from his/her prison cell, poke said lich's chief cleric's eye out, kill said lich's chief cleric's protégé and lose said lich's phylactery in the sewers under the lich's city.

That'll probably never ever happen but it is possible.

Yeah, but that Paladin has stats in the millions. If they can even be calculated.

[Sillycomic]

S/he could potentially survive being dumped in a pool of acid with acid breathing sharks by hobgoblins for the entertainment of an insane lich, following that escape from his/her prison cell, poke said lich's chief cleric's eye out, kill said lich's chief cleric's protégé and lose said lich's phylactery in the sewers under the lich's city.

That'll probably never ever happen but it is possible.

Wanna read the strip again? Said paladin had an improvised quarterstaff.

However, if you wanna argue on the way from escaping his prison to poking the cleric's eye out... the paladin had seen a little destitute girl he would have handed over the quarterstaff to make sure she got some chicken soup for the soul (and the tummy) and then done those things, I might change my mind.

[Supercomputers]

Nuh-uh! In my hypothetical situation s/he pokes said lich's chief cleric's eye out using his/her... um... finger! Cause paladins are sooooo awesome they can unarmed strike your body parts off!

[Sillycomic]

I suppose there's nothing wrong with a paladin using an unarmed strike as their smite evil per day.

And if you have been captured and thoroughly tortured, your GM might be lenient on you as you try to escape and when you crit the said cleric say, as flavor text, "You poke his eye out in epic lawful goodness!"

Ahh, but the little girl he passed on his way to the cleric is still destitute and without any bread.. so the paladin falls anyway.

[kyoryu]

The Paladin is under no compulsion to sell his arms/armor to avoid falling.

Keeping the armor and weapons is a Neutral act - not an Evil one. Helping fight the demons is a Good act.

There are many, many poor people in the world, the paladin cannot rescue all of them from poverty. They do the most good that they can, where they can. However, the paladin should *want* to help them in some way.

[Roderick_BR]

Is this a "make the Paladin fall no matter what he does thread" or a "this is something in my actual game" thread?

If its in game then why does the Paladin have no money? Did they spend every dime on weapons and armor? Why isn't the rest of the group helping in order to prevent the Paladin from getting killed?

This is so very true! People forget that a handful of gold coins is a HUGE fortune for non-adventurers. Give them 10 gp, and they feed the whole family, rent a cheap place to live, and start their own small family business with the change. Why the paladin need to sell his weapon (magic? At least two thousands gold coins.) and armor (a NON magic full place costs 1500 gp!).
And anyone that would HAVE that much money to buy all that stuff, the paladin could easily convince him to lend him the money.
Seriously, this is a weak scenario.

[HeadlessMermaid]

Come on. There are demons kidnapping little children, and you're going to penalize a paladin for not helping in soup kitchens?
On the other hand, demons kidnap a handful of children every year, while poverty kills thousands. And not just because the weather happened to be bad and the crop failed, but because of the caste system and the unbearable taxes that come with it. Typically, taxes to the Nobility and - ha! - the Church. So...
:smalltongue:

On the other other hand, this. (Superman and Paladins share an unnerving amount of similarities...)

http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20100926.gif (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2012)
From SMBC comics (http://www.smbc-comics.com/) by Zack Weiner, re-posted with the author's blessings.

Oh, and again: :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

And Wisdom?Yes. Play a PF paladin. :smalltongue:

[Myth]

Paladins are always a part of an Order. They have superriors who call the shots. Most good aligned chirches are rich (see: Lathander, order of Aster). If the situation is so dire that the character has to consider selling the tools of his trade (sword, armour) he is better off just contacting HQ and asking for assistance.

In other words even if your Paladin is poorer than a level 1 expert selling the fruits of his Profession and Craft skills, he is still a part of an order. AWLAYS. Unless you homebrew but then you've basically said "screw the published settings, everyone I'VE GOT THIS!" if you indeed have it, then don't force such choices on your players who are playing gimped characters anyway.

[Ailurus]

This is so very true! People forget that a handful of gold coins is a HUGE fortune for non-adventurers. Give them 10 gp, and they feed the whole family, rent a cheap place to live, and start their own small family business with the change. Why the paladin need to sell his weapon (magic? At least two thousands gold coins.) and armor (a NON magic full place costs 1500 gp!).
And anyone that would HAVE that much money to buy all that stuff, the paladin could easily convince him to lend him the money.
Seriously, this is a weak scenario.

Pretty much agree with this. If the paladin doesn't even have 5-10 GP its most likely the game is just starting out, in which case the correct solution is throw a book at the DM. (Handing over the arms and armor to the peasant is worse than leaving him in his current situation. If his family is already on the verge of starvation then its unlikely he has the time to go looking for a buyer, and even if he does a half-starved peasant walking down the road carrying a sword and chainmail or whatnot is just begging to get attacked by bandits)

In the event the Paladin is tricked out in tons of magic items and whatnot and still does not have 10 or so spare GP, well, you might have a case for selling off a minor magic item they have. Though, selling off said magical item will likely involve going to a major city, and the time it takes to do that will mean whatever evil you're riding off to smite will do much more evil in the time you're selling off your item.

Best solution if you don't have any cash (IMO):
a) Use 'sense motive' to make sure the peasant isn't trying to scam you (seriously, does he run outside to ask every passing adventurer for a handout? he's lucky to be alive then)
b) Is the paladin level 2 or higher? If so, inquire if anyone in the family is ill. Use lay on hands to at least partially patch them up (plus remove disease if a pathfinder paladin or a 3.5 paladin whose DM changed the worthless 'per week' to the slightly more useful 'per day'. Also restorations or something similar if said spells are prepared)
c) If the family is in danger of immediate starvation, provide them with some food to get by if it is on hand
d) Promise to come back to check on the family again once the evil has been smote.

Barely costs the paladin anything, and probably helps more than saying 'here you go, have 10 platinum! have a nice day!"

[DwarfFighter]

Society: The Paladin can't cure the disease, only treat the symptoms.

-DF

[Earthwalker]

I don’t think in the OP the paladin falling was even mentioned.
I do find it odd in DnD the you have people playing Good and wanting to help, then when 5000 GP falls in their lap they upgrade their +1 armour to +2 and buy a few other items and go out and fight for more money.
How much help could 5K do for say the small village the good person is protecting. Is +2 armour the best way to spend the money or would he better improve the quality of life for all if he invested in irrigation, or schools or libaries or a host of other things. Not to mention moving towards Trippyverse.
DnD does not support this, as it is asumed any money you get goes to making you better at fighting, its not about improving the world, just about beating bad guys.

[Myth]

I don’t think in the OP the paladin falling was even mentioned.
I do find it odd in DnD the you have people playing Good and wanting to help, then when 5000 GP falls in their lap they upgrade their +1 armour to +2 and buy a few other items and go out and fight for more money.
How much help could 5K do for say the small village the good person is protecting. Is +2 armour the best way to spend the money or would he better improve the quality of life for all if he invested in irrigation, or schools or libaries or a host of other things. Not to mention moving towards Trippyverse.
DnD does support this, as it is asumed any money you get goes to making you better at fighting, its not about improving the world, just about beating bad guys.

The whole system is centered on combat. Making an interesting character who is crap mechanically is not treated well by most parties when you fail to contribute. Gimping yourself further (unless you take VOP) by giving away the very resource the DM is giving you to beat the next thing he'll throw at you is a bad idea.

DnD is not a socail simulation, nor a real world simulation. It has crap for economics, no mechanics governing pc to npc interaction apart from the semi-combat oriented bluff and diplomacy who's main goal is to get you more stuff.

[Earthwalker]

The whole system is centered on combat. Making an interesting character who is crap mechanically is not treated well by most parties when you fail to contribute. Gimping yourself further (unless you take VOP) by giving away the very resource the DM is giving you to beat the next thing he'll throw at you is a bad idea.

DnD is not a socail simulation, nor a real world simulation. It has crap for economics, no mechanics governing pc to npc interaction apart from the semi-combat oriented bluff and diplomacy who's main goal is to get you more stuff.

I agree with you here and it is just an oddity of DnD. The wealth adventurers get is staggering compaired to what commoners get to live on. It just annoying as one resource that could possibly help lots of people is also needed and dare I say required to keep advancing in the game.

I know of VoP but no idea how it works mechanically as I haven't got the book it is in. From what a few people ahve said here it is also a downgrade from just getting WBL.

[Greenish]

I know of VoP but no idea how it works mechanically as I haven't got the book it is in. From what a few people ahve said here it is also a downgrade from just getting WBL.You donate your share of the loot for charity, and in return gain bonuses to attributes, AC, attack and so forth. The bonuses are in line with what you could buy with your current WBL, the problem is that they don't offer any of the extra options (flight, teleportation, miss chances, charging over difficult terrain, increasing threat range) that you could normally buy.

Some classes are better than others at supplying these options as class features, and for them the difference isn't that big.

[Earthwalker]

You donate your share of the loot for charity, and in return gain bonuses to attributes, AC, attack and so forth. The bonuses are in line with what you could buy with your current WBL, the problem is that they don't offer any of the extra options (flight, teleportation, miss chances, charging over difficult terrain, increasing threat range) that you could normally buy.

Some classes are better than others at supplying these options as class features, and for them the difference isn't that big.

Ahh thank you. What book is it in ?

It seems like it is there to support some of the characters I have played, who wantto help as much as they want to kill evil. Of course its never usualy an issue as normally I don't play DnD how it was designed anyhow.

[Greenish]

Ahh thank you. What book is it in ?Book of Exalted Deeds.

[Psyx]

The Paladin is the militant arm of the church. It's not their job to hamstring themselves in their role at the first chance.

A soldier comes across a village. The villagers need money. Does the soldier sell his gear to help them? No; because then he isn't a soldier any more, and is not able to help the people in need of his military skills, nor to defend them in times of need. Paladins are soldiers, not Mother Theresa.

[Rumpus]

Anybody read Faith of the Fallen? It centers around a society here the ruling group's ethos is to give away everything you have to anyone who has less. It doesn't work out so well.

Ok, a little basic econ: if the PCs spend their money to buy better gear, then the money has entered the economy just as if they'd given it to charity. Let's say they drop a ton of money to buy better weapons and armor. The armorer and weaponsmith are going to spend that money to buy food for their families, expand their homes and businesses, take on new workers, and buy something very nice for the wife if they know what is good for them. This gives money to the farmers and other craftsmen, and employs more people. Spending money on goods is the best thing you can do for your economy. It's not like the money is vaporized when it hits the cash register.

Besides, it's not like everybody else has a claim to the PCs money. If they want money like the PCs, they can crawl down dark holes and let things try to kill them. If the PCs want to share their money, that may be a good act, depending on the circumstances. Keeping money you have rightfully earned is a neutral act.

Paladins are called to serve as the mailed fist of their god. Any follower of a Good diety can (and should) try to help the poor, but only the very few called as Paladins are able to smite the wicked and protect the faithful. And note that the OP didn't say anything about starvation, he just said that the family was about to be "destitute", which means "has no money". Paladins, like everybody else, can only do so much, and have to decide where the greatest good lies. If he gives up his gear so that a single family won't have an empty coinpurse, then he is doing the gene pool a favor by being killed by the next goblin he meets.

[Sillycomic]

I think it just sets a bad precedent if part of the problems in the world you are playing are things like.... lack of irrigation, high taxes, destitution or starvation.

From a game mechanic standpoint you have a wizard, a paladin, a rogue and a cleric all looking at this and thinking to themselves, "I have power attack and maximized fireball, I am not sure how that helps here."

Plus it's confusing. The Superman comic earlier summed it up pretty well. How do you stop these things? Whose fault is it? Is it the government officials, the tax collector's, the sheriff, the king, the family that builds their farm in a dry place, random acts of nature, legal gambling...

On top of that, it's not fun. If you spend your gaming session working on the political/social/economical problems of a fake world, that would be a fairly boring session in my opinion. AND... if you do find that fun and enjoyable, why don't you just go out and help the real political/social/economical problems going on in the world. You play a paladin able to smite demons, and you instead send your paladin to a soup kitchen to help homeless starving npcs with a nice meal.... when real homeless starving people would love for you to volunteer in a real soup kitchen.

Plus, one of the logical explanations to these problems is "Well, I can do it better myself if I were leader." So then you got the paladin honestly contemplating killing/dethroning the current king in order to rule and make sure everything happens his way.

At least at this point you have a much better, "Will the paladin fall," scenario.

[Ragitsu]

Actually, I never mentioned the paladin "falling", and the GM (in this case) won't do that.


Paladins, like everybody else, can only do so much, and have to decide where the greatest good lies. If he gives up his gear so that a single family won't have an empty coinpurse, then he is doing the gene pool a favor by being killed by the next goblin he meets.

Interesting.

Myself, I am burned out on the "greater good" and "kill one to save a thousand" mantras that are popular in fiction these days (plus, I feel it is often an excuse to commit evil in small doses), but I accept your interpretation all the same.

[Vivicious]

Part of it comes down to the Paladin's attitude, innit?

If he chooses not to sell his arms and armor because he needs them to fight evil, that's one thing. If he chooses not to sell his arms and armor because he is unsympathetic to the plight of the soon-to-be destitute, that's quite another thing.

"I'm sorry, but I can't" isn't the same as "Get a job, hippie". :smalltongue:

[Weasel of Doom]

I wouldn't penalise the paladin for making either choice and think that doing so is unreasonable.

The paladin should definately help the family such as through lay on hands or remove disease if applicable. Depending on how urgent their quest they might stay there for a little bit and try and aid the family another way, perhaps the local lord will loan the family money or let them delay paying taxes if the paladin offers his word as surety.

Some paladins may give up their weapons and items to hlep the family. These paladins could then continue their quest wielding a sling and a quarterstaff. They're weakened but some paladins would consider the right thing to do and trust god to provide. Such a paladin is also pretty likely to have the vow of poverty feat.

I agree with the people who said the choice they make tells you a lot about the sort of paladin they are and that keeping their stuff is neutral but giving it up OR smiting a demon are both good.

@Myth Does core really say that all paladins are part of an order because that's not what I've always thought? Some might be but the lone knight-errant questing across the country with only his trusty steed is a pretty established archetype.

[hamishspence]

Myself, I am burned out on the "greater good" and "kill one to save a thousand" mantras that are popular in fiction these days (plus, I feel it is often an excuse to commit evil in small doses), but I accept your interpretation all the same.

PHB2 3.5 phrase for the "paladin philosopher" archetype was

"Outside of moral absolutes, an ethical code is based on the greatest good of the greatest number"

So- as long as the paladin doesn't do [Evil] acts- they really should be thinking about "the greater good".

On "kill one to save a thousand" there can be a difference between "taking a decision you know will lead to death" and "murder".

The classic example is a disease outbreak. Very high fatality rate- very contagious. There is a vaccine- but it's dangerous, and will kill some people who take it.

Now for a big enough population, the rules of statistics will mean that on average, some people will die of the vaccine, who would not have died of the disease (since there's always a chance of not catching it).

The character takes a decision- which he knows will result in people dying- to save the population. "Distribute the hazardous vaccine".

Could a paladin make that decision in that place?
I think they could. Even if the act can be described as "harming the innocent" by distributing a vaccine which you know will kill some of them- the intent behind the act is not to kill anybody- it's to save as many lives as possible.

It just happens- that the life-saving measure, will kill people in the process.

"Kill some in the process of saving the group"

is slightly different from

"Murder somebody to save the group."

[JonestheSpy]

You know, 1st edition addressed the overarching question the OP brings up, if not the rather extreme specific. A paladin was required to give almost all of their wealth away - I believe they donated 90% of all cash they acquired, and could only keep 10 magic items or so. So no, they were not obligated to disarm themselves to help the poor, but no being greedy either.

[Ragitsu]

Paladin ignoring the poor?

Bizarro D&D?