Persistent Spells & Not Breaking the Game

[Enix18]

In a Pathfinder game that I'll be playing in soon, my gunslinger sorcerer is essentially going to be able to apply the persistent spell metamagic effect to a spell for free twice per day. This is pretty sweet, obviously, but it leaves me with a bit of a balancing act on my hands...

See, I like the DM (who happens to be my younger brother), and so I don't want to try and pull off any absurd persistent spell shenanigans. Yes, I could persist wraithstrike, but where's the fun in that? So I'm in the market for some buff spells that would be reasonable to carry around all day. Some of the standard stat boosters like cat's grace and eagle's splendor are the first that come to mind as being pretty fair, but I was wondering if you folks could offer some more suggestions.

Since it's probably important, my character focuses on ranged combat (he duel-wields crossbows, and can channel spells through his firearms), however he's also the only arcane caster in the party and so the ability to provide supportive magic is equally as important as combat abilities. He is level 8, and can cast up to 4th level spells as a result. Spells that boost his offensive/defensive combat abilities would be nice, as would a few solid buffs that could apply to other party members or allow him to support them better.

So there you have it. I'm sorry if it's a bit rambly, as it's getting rather late here, but that's my request: do you folks have any spells that would be effective to persist without being overpowered?

[Draz74]

Defenses are less likely to break the game than offenses. So, Death Ward ... Magic Circle against Evil ... Freedom of Movement ...

[Salanmander]

Some things that could be fun that come to mind include movement stuff (spider climb, etc.) or senses stuff (arcane sight...is there something that grants scent?).

[Tyndmyr]

Persist spell isn't as big as you'd think for breaking the game. There's a coupla reasons for this...

First off, there's the level adjust to deal with. Sure, you can mitigate it away, but it does take at least some investment. The traditional method, incantatrix, has pretty steep prereqs. Including banning a school. So, investing a few levels of PrC goodness plus that is something to consider.

Second, buffs still take spell slots. Sure, they last all day...but if you manage to persist say, 12 spells per day, that only ends up being three per party member(unless you have group buffs), and 12 spell slots expended isn't trivial. You *can* opt to use low level slots, but then you're trading off the potential for the more fun buffs.

Thirdly, it's a static effect. It's much easier for a DM to balance around abilities that are always in play than temporary ones. On a non-persist wizard, your level of security varies widely depending on exactly what you have up at the moment.


It's pretty cool, and persist is definitely a viable buff strategy, but I wouldn't consider it more broken than say, war weaver buff strategies.

[LordBlades]

Thirdly, it's a static effect. It's much easier for a DM to balance around abilities that are always in play than temporary ones. On a non-persist wizard, your level of security varies widely depending on exactly what you have up at the moment.

It's pretty cool, and persist is definitely a viable buff strategy, but I wouldn't consider it more broken than say, war weaver buff strategies.

This, I'm currently playing an Incantatrix in my RL campaign and the DM has told me a couple of times that it's much easier for him to design encounters knowing that player X has persisten polymorph, divine power, righteous might and divine favor up, rather than needing to account for every subset of the above buffs the player might have at the time he reaches a given encounter.

[Vistella]

Persistent Arcane Spellsurge is the best thing a sorcerer can have :)

[Killer Angel]

Persistent Spell is not a game breaker: it requires SIX level adj.
Metamagic reducers or Persist for free are game breakers

[LordBlades]

Persistent Spell is not a game breaker: it requires SIX level adj.
Metamagic reducers or Persist for free are game breakers

That depends. I've constantly gamed with DMM: persist clerics and Incatatrix-es in parties and so far nothing has been broken. Persistent spells don't affect your chracter's peak performance, they just make you able to mantain that peak performance over longer durations.

Fighting a cleric fully buffed with non persistent buffs is no different that fighting a cleric buffed with the same buffs, but persisted.

[AnswersQuestion]

Uhh, guys... there's no point in calling Persistent Spell "Balanced because of the adjustment" because our dear poster already stated that his player will get 2 free persisted spells per day. So let's leave that out of the discussion, will we?

[Escheton]

That depends. I've constantly gamed with DMM: persist clerics and Incatatrix-es in parties and so far nothing has been broken. Persistent spells don't affect your chracter's peak performance, they just make you able to mantain that peak performance over longer durations.

Fighting a cleric fully buffed with non persistent buffs is no different that fighting a cleric buffed with the same buffs, but persisted.


Provided you don't have more than 1 encounter/day that is.
Thats the point, it frees up spellslots, which you use to destroy the encounters.
You don't have to spend 5 6-lvl spells for the average 5 encounters/day to buff that spell you love.

[LordBlades]

Provided you don't have more than 1 encounter/day that is.
Thats the point, it frees up spellslots, which you use to destroy the encounters.
You don't have to spend 5 6-lvl spells for the average 5 encounters/day to buff that spell you love.

What i meant was about the peak power of a spellcaster going nova and spending his best resources in that encounter. It still destroys that encounter, regardless whether his buffs carry on to the next enconter or not.
Having some long duration buffs simply means that you'll keep being useful after that, instead of merely sitting on the sidelines and watching somebody else going nova in the next encounter.

Try for example a 10-ish melee non-DMM: Persist cleric playing alongside a Druid. A brown bear with items is a pretty potent combatant even without any additional buffs. Even if the druid has no spells left, he can still maul ppl in combat with reasonable effectiveness. The cleric however is pretty much **** in melee without Divine Power and Righteous Might. And he probably won't have more than 1-2 of each.

I'm not saying Persistent spells don't make a character more powerful, just that they don't break anything, as other people suggested.

[Aracor]

Keep in mind that Pathfinder has a persistent spell feat now. It's just very different: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic

[ericgrau]

Hmm with a +6 metamagic for free twice a day it'll be hard to not break the game. I mean you could persist utterly useless things like bull's strength, which your party will soon have on magic items, but it's basically like a businessman saying "I get free money. I'm trying not to take too much." You could persist hour/level or maybe 10 minute per level buffs that almost last all day anyway. Or maybe persist some kind of divination spell like detect thoughts. Very useful but not in combat. And situational so blowing a persist on something you only use part of the time isn't that great.

[Necroticplague]

If you focus on the dual weilding part, try persisting Blessing of Garillion. You can use the 4 arms to weild a few extra crossbows (and if youre willing to invest for multitasking, load them without using complete actions). You can also try persisting Sweet Dreams so that you never have to worry about a nightmare or similar preventing you from prepping spells.

[Vivicious]

To be clear, you want spells of 4th level and below, yes?

Just from PF core:

Haste, for the whole party. [Fairly standard buff--handy to have all the time in case of ambush, but not broken.]

Blink. [50% chance of being on the wrong plane if/when they come after you, 20% chance your actions will take place on the wrong plane.]

Fly. [Grants immunity vs. nonflying anything if you take yourself out of range.]

Greater Invisibility. [Delicious buff. Maaaaybe trending toward broken depending on the game's powerscale.]

Summon Monster IV. Could be used for a Hound Archon--unlimited castings of Aid, Continual Flame, has 60' Darkvision. Greater Teleport at-will for itself alone +50 pounds of cargo. Not your taxi service, but could take items to or from a safe spot. Could be used as a taxi service if you stuffed your party into a Bag of Holding and had them hold their breath.

Edit: Hound Archon attendant becomes broken if you send it to market to get scrolls to solve the dungeon, since you're a Sorcerer. :smallwink:

[Tyndmyr]

Blink is actually one of my favorites. It has a tradeoff, sure, but it's overall a win in hit percentage, and as an added advantage, it lets you walk through walls, which is just awesome.

[Bakkan]

I have always thought it would be fun to persist Greater Mirror Image (PHB2). Essentially an 89% miss chance nearly all day.

Swift Fly and Swift Expeditious Retreat are also some of my favorite persistable spells.

[Vistella]

To be clear, you want spells of 4th level and below, yes?

Just from PF core:

Haste, for the whole party. [Fairly standard buff--handy to have all the time in case of ambush, but not broken.]

Blink. [50% chance of being on the wrong plane if/when they come after you, 20% chance your actions will take place on the wrong plane.]

Fly. [Grants immunity vs. nonflying anything if you take yourself out of range.]

Greater Invisibility. [Delicious buff. Maaaaybe trending toward broken depending on the game's powerscale.]

Summon Monster IV. Could be used for a Hound Archon--unlimited castings of Aid, Continual Flame, has 60' Darkvision. Greater Teleport at-will for itself alone +50 pounds of cargo. Not your taxi service, but could take items to or from a safe spot. Could be used as a taxi service if you stuffed your party into a Bag of Holding and had them hold their breath.

Edit: Hound Archon attendant becomes broken if you send it to market to get scrolls to solve the dungeon, since you're a Sorcerer. :smallwink:
haste and fly arent legal targets for persistant spell though, neither is summon monster

and greater invis only works if you persist it on yourself

but blink works :smallbiggrin:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Persist spell isn't as big as you'd think for breaking the game. There's a coupla reasons for this...

First off, there's the level adjust to deal with. Sure, you can mitigate it away, but it does take at least some investment. The traditional method, incantatrix, has pretty steep prereqs. Including banning a school. So, investing a few levels of PrC goodness plus that is something to consider.

Second, buffs still take spell slots. Sure, they last all day...but if you manage to persist say, 12 spells per day, that only ends up being three per party member(unless you have group buffs), and 12 spell slots expended isn't trivial. You *can* opt to use low level slots, but then you're trading off the potential for the more fun buffs.

Thirdly, it's a static effect. It's much easier for a DM to balance around abilities that are always in play than temporary ones. On a non-persist wizard, your level of security varies widely depending on exactly what you have up at the moment.


It's pretty cool, and persist is definitely a viable buff strategy, but I wouldn't consider it more broken than say, war weaver buff strategies.

I want to add to this, that persisted spells are as vulnerable as any other spell effect, so you might want to take that into acount

[Tyndmyr]

Yup, after the first dispel hits them, a cocky persist wizard gets a lot more humble. After that comes the rings of counterspelling(loaded with dispel), backup copies of critical buffs, and so forth.

It's the same problem as permanencied spells. You invest in a character build to negate one problem(short durations), but it makes you even more vulnerable to other things(since if you have persists, you ARE going to have buffs up to dispel).

[Douglas]

That depends. I've constantly gamed with DMM: persist clerics and Incatatrix-es in parties and so far nothing has been broken. Persistent spells don't affect your chracter's peak performance, they just make you able to mantain that peak performance over longer durations.

Fighting a cleric fully buffed with non persistent buffs is no different that fighting a cleric buffed with the same buffs, but persisted.
Take a look at the Team Solars link in my sig and then tell me if you still think that's always true.

Persistent Spell doesn't just extend peak performance to last all day, it also saves time in combat, increases the number of buffs you can plausibly use without combat ending before you're ready, and in the extreme case allows using buffs that would otherwise expire before you even finished buffing. If you're using enough buffs, Persistent Spell can rather significantly increase your peak performance.

[Godskook]

I'm not saying Persistent spells don't make a character more powerful, just that they don't break anything, as other people suggested.

There's more than one way to 'break' something, and all-day touch-attacks out of a single 3rd level cleric slot is fairly broken. Its not an "infinite loop" kind of broken, but still. Kinda like the MtG card "Flash" which was broken cause it was so powerful it literally was called "format defining", but with no loops are required in the combo.

[Vivicious]

haste and fly arent legal targets for persistant spell though, neither is summon monster

and greater invis only works if you persist it on yourself

but blink works :smallbiggrin:

Eek, you're right. Sorry, forgot that Extendable != Persistable.

Why doesn't Fly qualify tho'?

[Vistella]

Eek, you're right. Sorry, forgot that Extendable != Persistable.

Why doesn't Fly qualify tho'?

its neither personal nor has a fixed range, its a touch spell

[Douglas]

its neither personal nor has a fixed range, its a touch spell
Whether "touch" counts as fixed range is ambiguous and subject to debate. Regardless, tacking on Reach Spell metamagic or Arcane/Divine Reach from Archmage/Hierophant makes it 30' range which unambiguously does qualify.

[Vistella]

RAW touch isnt fixed

but yes, reach spell fixes that, but its another metamagic adjustment you have to live with :)

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Swift Fly works unambiguously.

The easiest way to defend against dispel magic is to avoid being targeted. Greater Mirror Image/Greater Invisibility will do the trick. Countering dispels is difficult because there are so many iterations of dispel magic. "Ha ha, I counter your greater dispel magic!" "Sorry, this is reaving dispel/chain dispel/dispel yo mama." So the other way to defend against dispel is to raise your caster level. If you have UMD, using a Bead of Karma is good. Ring of Enduring Arcana is cheap and effective. Generic ways of pumping CL are always good.

[Tyndmyr]

Take a look at the Team Solars link in my sig and then tell me if you still think that's always true.

Persistent Spell doesn't just extend peak performance to last all day, it also saves time in combat, increases the number of buffs you can plausibly use without combat ending before you're ready, and in the extreme case allows using buffs that would otherwise expire before you even finished buffing. If you're using enough buffs, Persistent Spell can rather significantly increase your peak performance.

You *can* make broken buffers. You can also make broken blasters, and broken battlefield controllers, or broken physical damage chars(hulking hurler). This doesn't necessarily say anything about the brokenness of the larger class of builds using that strategy. Pun pun being a paladin does not mean paladins are overpowered.

For all those other things you mentioned, see the aforementioned War Weaver.

[Necroticplague]

You *can* make broken buffers. You can also make broken blasters, and broken battlefield controllers, or broken physical damage chars(hulking hurler). This doesn't necessarily say anything about the brokenness of the larger class of builds using that strategy. Pun pun being a paladin does not mean paladins are overpowered.

For all those other things you mentioned, see the aforementioned War Weaver.

I thought pun-pun was a psion so that he got Knowledge(The Planes) as a class skill.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I thought pun-pun was a psion so that he got Knowledge(The Planes) as a class skill.

I think the level 1 version IE the paladin one, instead buffs Religion to the baator and back to get knowledge of the free wishes granted by pazuzu.