Gnomes Vs. Kobolds [Archive] - Page 2 - Giant in the Playground Forums

Milo v3

2011-01-20, 10:32 PM

Maybe they're greedier than Neogi. Maybe they eat their young.
They aren't greedy in the same way as Neogi. Where anywhere does it say thier greedy?

Eat thier young? What? One of thier main goals is to have tonnes of children so thier is more of them so they have more teritory & resources.

So thier are many low level equilients in the Monster Manual. Skeletons, Zombies, Goblins, Elves, Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, even Formian Workers are built for low-level players. Its not the kobolds problem that DM's don't look at the Other monsters.

LansXero

2011-01-20, 11:48 PM

Eat thier young? What? One of thier main goals is to have tonnes of children so thier is more of them so they have more teritory & resources.

They are actually very protective of their young, and they see their upbringing and care as the responsability of the WHOLE community. No abandoned or neglected koboldlings, no orphans, they are all taught alongside the adults and treated with the respect given to one since their early stages :D

sonofzeal

2011-01-21, 12:04 AM

They aren't greedy in the same way as Neogi. Where anywhere does it say thier greedy?

Eat thier young? What? One of thier main goals is to have tonnes of children so thier is more of them so they have more teritory & resources.
Read the last line in that post. =P

The point was, you can have a society that's wonderfully and selflessly dedicated to the common good, and is still composed primarily of people that are evil in other ways.

Foeofthelance

2011-01-21, 12:12 AM

Except that the way kobolds are portrayed it doesnt seem that their society, as a whole, is particularly evil. They are pretty socialistic and totalitarian, true, but that seems to be their natural inclination; unlike humans and their love for freedom, kobolds seem to naturally love their community above everything else. Everything they do, from trapmaking to mining to building is done with their community's well-being in mind first and foremost. How is that 'evil'? :S

I think its less that Kobolds or their society are evil in any form, just that they typically serve evil forces; Chromatic dragons, Tiamat, etc. So the evil comes not from any instinct or inborn nature, but in their standard actions taken in the name of this or that God. The reason its "usually" is because there is the occasional kobold tribe that serves a metallic dragon, Bahamut, Io, or the like. And they go out and do good things. But since since most good aligned forces aren't in the habit of collecting fanatical slave tribes, most unaligned kobold tribes get "adopted" by evil forces and put to work.

Bayar

2011-01-21, 01:35 AM

:smallsigh: But interacting with traps is just ... boring. You roll Search to see them, and then Disable Device to stop them. Boring. Illusions are so much more ... creative. Complex. Inventive. Not to mention you can replace most traps with a spell ...

It appears that trap and illusion is intercchangeable in your statement. It only depends on the level of creativity your DM puts into his encounters.

Milo v3

2011-01-21, 02:14 AM

So this is what we have learned: Alignment in D&D sucks, illusions are basically traps, there seems to be a large fanbase for whisper gnomes, gods lie, anything else?:smallamused:

LansXero

2011-01-21, 02:17 AM

Milo v3

2011-01-21, 02:20 AM

We aren't rabid. We are kind extremists that can't be controlled.

MeeposFire

2011-01-21, 06:36 PM

We can not be rabid! We are not mammals!

Milo v3

2011-01-21, 06:47 PM

True we are Dragons

The dragon bone adorns our skull, the dragon blood fuels our magic, the dragons scales protect us, we are the dragon, long live the dragon.

We can't be rabid.

JaronK

2011-01-21, 07:06 PM

So this is what we have learned: Alignment in D&D sucks, illusions are basically traps, there seems to be a large fanbase for whisper gnomes, gods lie, anything else?:smallamused:

Dragons are cooler than anything else ever!

Seriously thought, Kobolds are absolutely racist lil guys. Dragons are awesome, Kobolds totally count, everything that's not scaly is evil and scary and wrong and shall be slaughtered by the might of DRAGONS unless they worship dragons in which case maybe they're okay but only as long as they know their place.

Kobolds are actually extremely good to each other, and to other dragons.

And I have to say, it's SO MUCH FUN to play Kobolds exactly as written. We had a group of all dragons (mostly Kobolds, with a Dragonborn or two thrown in) and ran around announcing our presence to everyone (we had two Paladins). Instead of listening at doors or sneaking about, we'd kick open the doors and yell "STAND BACK BEFORE THE MIGHT OF DRAGONS!" This worked shockingly well, especially when the scenario (it was WLD) had a group of Kobolds waiting to ambush. They just said "Okay" and stood back, and then we went on our merry way.

JaronK

Gnorman

2011-01-21, 07:22 PM

We also learned that everyone's a little bit racist, and most people are actually Lawful Evil.

absolmorph

2011-01-21, 07:55 PM

We also learned that everyone's a little bit racist, and most people are actually Lawful Evil.
It's true!
Also, it's hard to be sure what the majority of people are, since we haven't done any sort of survey; the sample is biased and small.

sonofzeal

2011-01-21, 08:33 PM

It's true!
Also, it's hard to be sure what the majority of people are, since we haven't done any sort of survey; the sample is biased and small.
But it's true! Avenue Q tells us so!

Milo v3

2011-01-21, 09:08 PM

and most people are actually Lawful Evil
Acording to the alignment test & my friends I Chaotic Evil.:smallamused:
But then I'm not most people.

everyone's a little bit racist
Just wondering? Is it racist to cast the epic spell "Familicide" on every gnome I meet?:smalltongue:

Czin

2011-01-21, 09:12 PM

D&D Gnomes; meh we already have two short human-like creatures; dwarves and halflings. The former already covers the steam/clockpunk and typically living underground gig, the latter already covers the sneaky aspect of whisper gnomes. There's no real point in their existence

Kobolds: They're literally angry little dragon-men, how could I say no?

Milo v3

2011-01-21, 09:21 PM

Kobolds: They're literally angry little dragon-men
We aren't angry. :smallannoyed:
But people always saying were angry, angers us.:smallmad:

Czin

2011-01-21, 09:32 PM

We aren't angry. :smallannoyed:
But people always saying were angry, angers us.:smallmad:

Shush, or I'll summon a Lord of Change and you'll have to deal with the mother of all daemonic Schrödinger wizards. :smalltongue:

absolmorph

2011-01-21, 10:37 PM

D&D Gnomes; meh we already have two short human-like creatures; dwarves and halflings. The former already covers the steam/clockpunk and typically living underground gig, the latter already covers the sneaky aspect of whisper gnomes. There's no real point in their existence.
Preventing a campaign from always being super serious by always having a prank ready for the overly dramatic moments, of course.

Czin

2011-01-21, 11:12 PM

Preventing a campaign from always being super serious by always having a prank ready for the overly dramatic moments, of course.

But I have warhammer Orcs for humor, and I have gremlins for pranks.

Thiyr

2011-01-21, 11:18 PM

Man, and here I was trying to just spectate this one again. Oh well.

D&D Gnomes; meh we already have two short human-like creatures; dwarves and halflings. The former already covers the steam/clockpunk and typically living underground gig, the latter already covers the sneaky aspect of whisper gnomes. There's no real point in their existence

Kobolds: They're literally angry little dragon-men, how could I say no?

Gnomish technology: unlike dwarven technology, advances at a much faster rate. Dwarves adapt technology well, but end up being too stoic to make use of it, preferring the old ways. And honestly, I kinda forget halflings exist. Always pretty much seen them as "short humans" rather than having...well, anything that set them apart really. Gnomes provide a mix of lighthearted humor, clever tricks, and magical/technological ingenuity. If anything, the halflings are the unneeded ones in my eyes.

Kobolds: I've already got a small horde-fighter for my low-level adventurers to fight against, but instead of being lizards with egos, they're the ever-majestic goblins, which feel just as natural as a warband in the forest as they do foot soldiers in an invasion force as they do a secluded group of scientific and magical prodigies working on perfecting their next big experiment...before they forget and/or explode themselves. Why should I use lizards that figured out how to make an arrow trap and seem to think they're dragon's spawn.

Oh yea, that's why I'd use them, because there's nothing wrong with two things filling similar niches. Same reason I don't cut out halflings.

Milo v3

2011-01-22, 01:20 AM

Kobolds: I've already got a small horde-fighter for my low-level adventurers to fight against, but instead of being lizards with egos, they're the ever-majestic goblins, which feel just as natural as a warband in the forest as they do foot soldiers in an invasion force as they do a secluded group of scientific and magical prodigies working on perfecting their next big experiment...before they forget and/or explode themselves. Why should I use lizards that figured out how to make an arrow trap and seem to think they're dragon's spawn.

1. Kobolds can be the main antagonist of your game as much as hobgoblins, undead, drow, ect.
2. They are egotisitcal they except what they are (Dragons)
3. Gnomes aren't magical prodigies they are good at using illusion.
4. Gnomes aren't scientific prodigies either, in the defult D&D. They don't aren't even known for thier science in Core D&D.
5. Kobolds don't blow themselves up. Were does it ever say that?
6. They don't think they are dragons spawn. They Know they are dragons.Not true dragons but dragons none the less.
7. They also haven't just figgered out making arrow traps. They regard traps as art. They put thier heart & soul into making ingenius & practical traps which can stop invaders without a single loss of kobold life.

Thiyr

2011-01-22, 12:23 PM

Czin

2011-01-22, 12:40 PM

Most of the gnome points were covering the points in a similar fashion to what Czin was doing. Moreso to demonstrate that even two races that do similar have reasons to exist. Also, I was stating goblins blow themselves up. I was intentionally exaggerating things. In case you didn't notice the last line, I'll repeat it

If they share a similar niche and live in the same environment, then they cannot coexist without competing until one or the other goes extinct or leaves. Goblins and Kobolds only manage to avoid wiping each other out because they are stupendously numerous, grow up fast, and reproduce with rabbit like vigor while most demi-humans have low reproductive rates, take forever to grow up (case in point, the elves who take a century to reach sexual maturity), and don't seem to "get busy" all too often which makes them less likely to survive competition (though competition will be less fierce due to a smaller number of units who need resources.)

And plus, in my setting, D&D/Warcraft style gnomes were destroyed by a infestation of Overlord style gnomes (barely sapient, vermin like, one foot tall ankle-biters who dress like garden gnomes) who ate them and destroyed their machinery after their nations were utterly devastated in an absolutely disastrous war against the Grobsreich (It was humans with generally WW1 levels of tech against clockpunk gnomes, the gnomes never really stood a chance) and infest their burrows like blue shirt wearing, red cap donning, white beard totting rats. Why did I switch out the type of gnomes introduced in Greyhawk for the gnomes of Overlord 2? Because I found Overlord 2's gnomes to be hilarious.

MeeposFire

2011-01-22, 03:44 PM

The one setting where I actually like gnomes was Eberron. Otherwise I have had little use for them mechanically or in narrative. Funny the gnome/kobold hate relationship is not so strong there (at least in particular).

Milo v3

2011-01-22, 04:17 PM

A similar niche.
Gnomes Vs. Kobolds
I don't see gnomes mastering trap building. I don't see gnomes fufulling the wants of a Tangible God (Kobolds see True Dragons as Tangible gods which they worship over Kurtulmak). I don't see gnomes being natural miners. I see gnomes living in hills, talking to badgers, with huge names, pulling annoying pranks on everyone.

Goblins (This ones harder because I barely know anything about goblin.Portrayed as green even though they are said to be colored yellow to rust red. They ride worgs and have dealings with worgs. They are bullied by thier larger cousins into being infintary in thier armies.
No the only similarity I see between them is that they are small size, They commonly live in subterranian areas, & kobolds and goblins share a speed of 30ft.

Little Known fact by new players: Kobolds in earlier editions used to whiskered dogpeople (With the goblin subtype).

My favourite Gnomes are the ones in my campaign (Which are based off dragonlance gnomes). They are inventors which exaggerate everything they make so much that the chance of it blowing up the inventor becomes 90% chance.

Bayar

2011-01-22, 06:00 PM

My favourite Gnomes are the ones in my campaign (Which are based off dragonlance gnomes). They are inventors which exaggerate everything they make so much that the chance of it blowing up the inventor becomes 90% chance.

Kinda like Warcraft goblins, right ?

Czin

2011-01-22, 06:01 PM

Kinda like Warcraft goblins, right ?

No I say it's, more like Warhammer 40,000 Ork teknologee, though still very much like warcraft goblin-tech.

Milo v3

2011-01-22, 06:21 PM

Kinda like Warcraft goblins, right ?

I wouldn't know. I've never actually played WoW.

No I say it's, more like Warhammer 40,000 Ork teknologee, though still very much like warcraft goblin-tech.

How would you know about anything my Gnomes? And its not futuristic or anything more like clockwork golems & Steam powered clocks.

Czin

2011-01-22, 06:24 PM

I wouldn't know. I've never actually played WoW.

How would you know about anything my Gnomes? And its not futuristic or anything more like clockwork golems & Steam powered clocks.

If it's highly likely to go boom and it's extremely exaggerated, it's orky.

Milo v3

2011-01-22, 06:31 PM

If it's highly likely to go boom and it's extremely exaggerated, it's orky.
So basically everything in Just Cause 2 is Orcish.

Czin

2011-01-22, 06:33 PM

So basically everything in Just Cause 2 is Orcish.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__SXJM2y4kSk/SwXMNExUvKI/AAAAAAAAAR4/UNRY6cxl93g/s1600/Orks+Demotivational.jpg
And that's just the bare minimum of ork teknologee.

Milo v3

2011-02-15, 08:15 PM

Which side wins?
I'm Biased so I can't be the judge. How about Bayar he's not biased?:smallwink:

My vote to "The Mighty And Noble Kobolds".

mootoall

2011-02-15, 08:21 PM

Well technically there was no criteria for victory ...

LOTRfan

2011-02-15, 09:31 PM

Can't we all just get along? As civilized tiny lizard men and short magic guys?

*runs before the hail of double crossbow bolts and quickrazor blades arrive* :smalltongue:

Milo v3

2011-02-15, 09:49 PM

Can't we all just get along? As civilized tiny lizard men and short magic guys?

*runs before the hail of double crossbow bolts and quickrazor blades arrive* :smalltongue:

Never!:smalltongue:
The Gnomes "might of" commited Atrocities agianst kobold kind. Also wheres the fun in peace? :smallbiggrin:

Lawless III

2011-02-16, 12:45 AM

It's rather hard for me to weigh in on either side. As I've played a Gnome Shadowcraft Mage who acted like Clint Eastwood, and a Kobold Dread Necromancer who's a bit like Che Guevara, I've sort of come to disregard racial stereotypes when it comes to PCs. If you're strange enough to go adventuring, all bets are off.

As for NPCs, I prefer Gnomes. They're more fun to bug the party with. :smallbiggrin:

I also never understood the idea that gnomes have no niche of their own. Dwarves are the sturdy miners and craftsmen of the mountains. Halflings are flighty nomadic traders with a penchant for thievery. Gnomes live in burrows among the hills and plains or in the cities of men, they are the inventors and magicians who are called in to think of the solutions no one else would consider. Broad strokes, but they do each have their own distinct flavor if you can look a bit deeper than "short, live underground." To them humans and elves could just be "tall, live above ground." It's all just a matter of perspective. Gnomes, Kobolds, Halflings, Elves, or whatever your least favorite race are only as annoying or bland as you choose to make them. That's the beauty of DnD.

Done ranting, you may resume hating each other now.:smalltongue:

Set

2011-02-16, 12:45 AM

Can't we all just get along? As civilized tiny lizard men and short magic guys?

*runs before the hail of double crossbow bolts and quickrazor blades arrive* :smalltongue:

Little gnome boys and girls are forced to drill and practice techniques specially developed to kill kobolds, so that every gnome, even those who grow up in cities and will never see a kobold in their lives, will end up with a +1 to hit them due the intensive training their parents inculcated in them, so I'm guessing that there won't be much chance for peace.

Oddly, the kobolds, for all their racial legends about hating gnomes, don't seem to care enough to bother coming up with any special fervor or training for fighting their 'arch-nemeses.'

If I were re-flavoring that, I'd make it the evil races (orcs, goblinoids, kobolds) that get mechanical bonuses based off of race-hatred, instead of purportedly good races like dwarves and gnomes...

Arguably, the dwarf and gnome races both get enough fiddly little bonuses anyway. Compared to the half-orc, their list of racial traits reads like War and Peace.

Marnath

2011-02-16, 01:05 AM

Oddly, the kobolds, for all their racial legends about hating gnomes, don't seem to care enough to bother coming up with any special fervor or training for fighting their 'arch-nemeses.'

That's probably because their usual combat tactic seems to be "Smother them under a pile of our gutted corpses!" Like in, the arms and equipment guide I think it was, where the mercenary list had goblin mercs at a silver coin/day and the same price was for kobolds too but they come in groups of ten for that price.

Milo v3

2011-02-16, 04:31 AM

That's probably because their usual combat tactic seems to be "Smother them under a pile of our gutted corpses!" Like in, the arms and equipment guide I think it was, where the mercenary list had goblin mercs at a silver coin/day and the same price was for kobolds too but they come in groups of ten for that price.

We resent that. We have many combat tactics and none are the one you stated before. One is to:
1. Cast Move Earth to build a trench.
2. Fill the trench with a flamable liquid
3. Begin a retreat. So the enemies follow.
4. Set the trench on fire with magical fire.
5. Fire crossbow bolts at enemies.

The enemies must now jump through the flames or retreat. All the while they are being hit by bolts.

Bayar

2011-02-16, 04:53 AM

We resent that. We have many combat tactics and none are the one you stated before. One is to:
1. Cast Move Earth to build a trench.
2. Fill the trench with a flamable liquid
3. Begin a retreat. So the enemies follow.
4. Set the trench on fire with magical fire.
5. Fire crossbow bolts at enemies.

The enemies must now jump through the flames or retreat. All the while they are being hit by bolts.

Still, the best tactic that kobolds use in sieges is to swarm and overrun the enemy. And it works.

Milo v3

2011-02-16, 05:14 AM

Still, the best tactic that kobolds use in sieges is to swarm and overrun the enemy. And it works.

Thats not our best tactic its just our most common tactic.

Marnath

2011-02-16, 02:15 PM

Thats not our best tactic its just our most common tactic.

Which is what I said, after all. :smallsigh:
You'll notice I never said it was their only tactic, I said usual.

Milo v3

2011-02-16, 05:14 PM

Which is what I said, after all. :smallsigh:
You'll notice I never said it was their only tactic, I said usual.

I was actually talking to Bayar. Your response sounded more like a sarcastic joke.:smalltongue:

Marnath

2011-02-16, 10:21 PM

I was actually talking to Bayar. Your response sounded more like a sarcastic joke.:smalltongue:

You were talking to him, yes. And he was talking to you about what you said to me. So it's connected, see? And there was some sarcasm there, true, however it doesn't make it untrue what I said, they are primarily swarm fighters.

Milo v3

2011-02-16, 11:11 PM

I'd say we were Ambush fighters that use numbersto our advantage. We don't really swarm over them. We rarely get close. Thousands of kobolds with crossbows and magic at a single ambush. Kobolds breed like rabbits and we use that to our advantage.

Bayar

2011-02-17, 02:13 AM

Milo v3

2011-02-17, 02:20 AM

Well, that's not really what Races of the Dragon says...

Yes it is. But not in those words. I basically said Kobolds overwhelm thier enemies by swarming the enemy in fancy way.:smallbiggrin:

Gnorman

2011-02-17, 05:31 AM

Repeat after me. You. Are. Not. Actually. A. Kobold.

This whole kneejerk "Everything kobold is awesome" thing is totally undercutting the supposed genuine intellectual debate thing.

Milo v3

2011-02-17, 05:49 AM

Repeat after me. You. Are. Not. Actually. A. Kobold.
You're not actually a Kobold.:smalltongue:
But jokes aslide. The reason for me saying "we Kobolds" is because I'm roleplaying.

This whole kneejerk "Everything kobold is awesome" thing is totally undercutting the supposed genuine intellectual debate thing.
What are you talking about. I realise thier are many problems with kobolds:
- They rarely enter common society causing them to have to make thier own weapons and supplies.
- Basically a race of servants
- Are cold-blooded
- Many of their battle tactics rely on the Traps stopping the enemy from coming close.
- Other battle tactics normally require huge amounts of Kobold troops and thier are thousands of kobold causalties.
Ect.