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Milo v3
2010-12-17, 01:51 AM
I want to findout why some people can stand to play as gnomes. So I created this thread to findout why & maybe change the opinnions of some Kobold haters.

Kobolds are seen as underpowered cannonfodder and gnomes are seen as little inventors. This thread is to change the common sterotypes of these to races. Here is a little example of my opinions:

Kobolds
This race is descended from the orginal true dragons. They fastest of the standard small humaniods. They are experts in trapmaking, mining, sorcery, alchemy, training Dire Weasels, & Making armour out of Giant beetles.

Gnomes
This race is basically a bad mix of dwarves, halfings, & weak fey. They invent things that are ten times more complicated then they should be, that then blow up in the face of the inventor. They are jealous little creatures that woreship a god that commited Atrocities killing thousands of innocents.

Yeah so thats my point of view.

MeeposFire
2010-12-17, 01:57 AM
Hey gnomes are great for many things like setting off traps, being dinner,...

FelixG
2010-12-17, 02:20 AM
I am with you man. Gnomes are annoying as [Exponent Deleted] :smallbiggrin:

Really all they are good for is dinner...Kobolds are much more fun to play as.

One of my few enjoyments of 4E was that Gnomes got the boot to the face to the monster manual.

crazedloon
2010-12-17, 02:24 AM
To begin with most people do not play kobolds because they are normally evil. In DnD an alignment is not racial stigmatization or lies about a race it is cold hard fact. So no matter if you read the story of the glittergolds "betrayal" for the gnomes or for the kobolds the race as a whole are evil.


Kobolds
This race is descended from the orginal true dragons. They fastest of the standard small humaniods. They are experts in trapmaking, mining, sorcery, alchemy, training Dire Weasels, & Making armour out of Giant beetles.
-not the fastest (a fast one for sure) but gnomes have whisper gnomes which are just as fast and better at hiding.
-making traps are only useful if your enemy come to you (or a select few very creative uses of some spells) since they tend to be stationary
-mining aint something a PC does and if you want a miner you play a dwarf
-how can they be better at training dire weasels when the gnome can talk to the weasel and ask it to ride it.
-so they can make subpar armor instead of spending the same skill on making useful armor... truelly a gift

-they are better sorcerers but than only if you break kobolds with feats (and fluff wise that is only a select few in an entire populace while the others are just as good if not weaker than other races)



Gnomes
This race is basically a bad mix of dwarves, halfings, & weak fey. They invent things that are ten times more complicated then they should be, that then blow up in the face of the inventor. They are jealous little creatures that woreship a god that commited Atrocities killing thousands of innocents.

Yeah so thats my point of view.
-inventions which blow up are a stigma much like anything you will try to defend on the kobolds and depend on the world (speaking of the standard DnD worlds because custom worlds can not be taken into account)
- again the "atrocities" are only committed if you believe the evil creature version of a story. And again that same god is good aligned which is not an opinion in DnD it is a fact.

if those are the best things you can find for gnomes being bad you have quite the uphill battle

LordBlades
2010-12-17, 02:29 AM
IMHO, the only reason gnomes are cool is Shadocraft Mage :smallbiggrin:

Akal Saris
2010-12-17, 02:31 AM
I like whisper gnomes because they're like tiny little ninjas that flip out and kill people.

I like standard gnomes because the thought of a squeaky-voiced little dude in a bathrobe summoning demons and entangling you in giant black tentacles appeals to my sense of comedic justice. Ditto for gnome illusionists.

And I like tinker gnomes because I'm a die-hard Dragonlance fan and random explosions are pretty awesome.

Jjeinn-tae
2010-12-17, 02:42 AM
I rather like gnomes as they appeal to my enjoyment of Steampunk, and I rather enjoy the incessant practical jokes. I wouldn't be caught within a mile of one though for fear of my life. Eberron Gnomes are also amusing though for being little mobsters (do not mess with The Trust).

I like kobolds as I like reptiles, and I tend to favor the "underdog." My campaign setting features them heavily as the races with the most "power" within society, but that hardly speaks for standard kobolds. There's just something intangible that I enjoy about them. I also would not be caught within a mile of kobolds for fear of my life.

Both kobolds and gnomes have a strange way of making silverware threatening... You touch a kobold's fork and you get twenty knives in your hand from all the traps, you touch a gnome's fork and who knows what would explode in the name of a joke.

Strife Warzeal
2010-12-17, 02:47 AM
you touch a gnome's fork and who knows what would explode in the name of a joke.

Somehow he lined your undergarments with small glass tubes of his homemade Alchemical Fire(It burns three times as hot and twice as long!) that are set to break when the fork is touched.

Gabe the Bard
2010-12-17, 03:37 AM
I once had a rock gnome who was turned into a kobold after a time-space paradox. Interestingly, he started out as a young gnome, which made him old or venerable as a kobold. Lucky for me he didn't start out as a middle aged gnome!

Serpentine
2010-12-17, 04:22 AM
They invent things that are ten times more complicated then they should be, that then blow up in the face of the inventor.You say that like it's a bad thing :smallconfused:

I like gnomes AND kobolds. One of my favourite characters in my game is a long-running gnome illusionist sorcerer/cleric/arcane whatsidoovey.
In my campain world, there are three main groups of gnomes:
- Goblin Isle gnomes are sort of Carribean. They are definitely tinkerers (they're set to invent Warforged sometime in the next few years, and their cities contain huge skyscrapers that go as far underground as they do into the sky), but they are also made up of ever-warring piratical island-nations, and an awful lot of their tinkering goes towards war machines.
- Cliffton gnomes, way inland in the Highland region, are the real stereotypical tinker gnomes. They're mostly colonists from the Goblin Isles seeking a more peaceful existance, and they form a good part of the basis of the magical subculture in the city of Cliffton.
- Mainland gnomes are sort of the equivalent of the (historical, stereotypical) Jews - well-off moneylenders and businessmen, respected and depended on but also subject to mistrust and suspicion. They still have an aptitude for gadgetry, but it's usually reduced to a casual hobby or very strictly utilitarian such as for bank security.

I'm okay with the idea of gnomes being sort of a cross between dwarves and fey. It makes sense to me, and I find them plentily distinct from the other races.

Kobolds haven't really come up much in this world. They're around, there just hasn't been much call for them in-game. We once came across a kobold Ranger taking pot-shots at a city of zombies, and the aforementioned gnome was kidnapped by a tribe of them who were working for a minotaur Barbarian (the kidnapping wasn't at the Morndrax's behest, that was for their own purposes). Oh yeah, there was that cabal of cultists working to resurrect an ancient dracolich... That was kinda snazzy.
I guess kobolds have featured a bit. I like 'em.

JaronK
2010-12-17, 05:26 AM
Whispergnomes are awesome. Tiny ninjas! And Kobolds are hilariously fun to play (especially Dragonwrought Kobolds... you run around telling everyone how much better you are than them because you're a dragon and they're not... until you find a giant dragon and just start worshipping him).

JaronK

Bayar
2010-12-17, 05:31 AM
To begin with most people do not play kobolds because they are normally evil. In DnD an alignment is not racial stigmatization or lies about a race it is cold hard fact. So no matter if you read the story of the glittergolds "betrayal" for the gnomes or for the kobolds the race as a whole are evil.



Don't forget that good and evil tags are metagame terms usually. In-game, good and evil is just in the eye of the beholder.


-not the fastest (a fast one for sure) but gnomes have whisper gnomes which are just as fast and better at hiding.

Kobolds have Slight build, that gives them the same +8 bonus to hide as whisper gnomes, plus other bonuses due to size when it is advantageous.


- again the "atrocities" are only committed if you believe the evil creature version of a story. And again that same god is good aligned which is not an opinion in DnD it is a fact.

if those are the best things you can find for gnomes being bad you have quite the uphill battle

Well, I read Garl's version of the story, and it seemed like he went Genocidicles just for a laugh. On mortals no less. If that is not an evil act, I don't know what is. Oh, did I mention, he didn't apologise ? Or that no other god apart from Io did anything to fix Garl's mistake ? Would revenge after betrayal condemn a race to an evil tag ?

Coidzor
2010-12-17, 07:42 AM
Would revenge after betrayal condemn a race to an evil tag ?

Well, Revenants are still evil, after all. And so is letting oneself actually be consumed by the desire for revenge.

Personally, I prefer kobolds roasted with a pineapple marinade or crispy-fried with 11 secret herbs and spices and served with ranch, honey mustard, and barbecue sauce on the side whereas with gnomes I favor a pudding with a light plum sauce. I know you're only supposed to have elf pudding with plum sauce, but I like the piquant aroma of being an iconoclast. Though if you're entertaining, probably best to break even with a flaming dwarven brandy and bioluminous fungus #12 sauce.

So it basically devolves into the age-old dichotomy between sorcerers and wizards.

Yora
2010-12-17, 07:59 AM
I really like gnomes and keep them for my homebrew setting while kicking out halflings.
But I really can't get my mind around why people like gnomes as tinkers. There are two bad things people seem to associate with gnomes, which are tinkering and silliness.
I like them as illusionists, rangers, rogues, and alchemists who are very proffessional about the things they do.

I don't care for kobolds at all. They rarely, if ever, appear in any of my games.

The Gilded Duke
2010-12-17, 08:49 AM
Gnomes make some of the best illusionists ever, getting a bonus to save dcs that other wizards just don't have access too, as well as the powerful gnomish illusionist ACF, and access to the Shadowcraft Mage PRC. They also have access to gnome only feats that make their illusions more powerful.

Illusionists are some of the best crowd control wizards.
Wizards are god.

My tenth level gnome Illusionist could use a 0th level spell to tie up 14 10 foot squares of enemies for at least one round.

They are also hardy little bastards, and make surprisingly good barbarians.
Lastly all standard gnomes have the racial spell like ability to destroy evidence (prestidigitation)

Radar
2010-12-17, 09:10 AM
I am with you man. Gnomes are annoying as [Exponent Deleted] :smallbiggrin:

Really all they are good for is dinner...Kobolds are much more fun to play as.

One of my few enjoyments of 4E was that Gnomes got the boot to the face to the monster manual.
Well, they are a PC race (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KqjOGdOMtA&feature=related) again.

Seriously: any race is as cool or as lame as we want it to. If someone describes gnomes as suicidal maniacs, they will be such. If someone else pictures kobolds as baby-eating monsters, then it will be true in their game. If yet another person decides to build a powerful empire uniting crazy genious of gnomes with more level-headed kobold engeneers, then it will work just as well.

DwarfFighter
2010-12-17, 09:18 AM
From the side: I don't agree with the fascination with kobolds. Sure, they are the "cute" evil guys, but they are still evil and suitable only for being slaughtered in their hundreds and thousands by low-level adventurers.

-DF

Bayar
2010-12-17, 09:29 AM
From the side: I don't agree with the fascination with kobolds. Sure, they are the "cute" evil guys, but they are still evil and suitable only for being slaughtered in their hundreds and thousands by low-level adventurers.

-DF

Same can be said about gnomes.

Coidzor
2010-12-17, 09:32 AM
Same can be said about gnomes.

Nah, gnomes are easier to domesticate so you can just have 'em in their fields and you can just use commoners, maybe experts if you have to be some kind of fantasy kosher, to slaughter 'em. Kobolds, on the other hand, just like digging too much to stay in a pen for easy gathering of the flock.

FelixG
2010-12-17, 09:39 AM
Nah, gnomes are easier to domesticate so you can just have 'em in their fields and you can just use commoners, maybe experts if you have to be some kind of fantasy kosher, to slaughter 'em. Kobolds, on the other hand, just like digging too much to stay in a pen for easy gathering of the flock.

Thats why you keep them in the caves and have them mining! raise critters in the caves to eat, self sustaining work force!

Gnomes...if you keep them on the surface you have to look at them 0.o and just looking at them makes you want to punt them! :smallbiggrin:

Radar
2010-12-17, 09:45 AM
Don't forget that good and evil tags are metagame terms usually. In-game, good and evil is just in the eye of the beholder.
Between Detect Evil and Holy Word spells it isn't metagame - it's part of the in-game reality (measurable even). Otherwise you wouldn't have axiomatic or anarchic weapons as well.

AtlanteanTroll
2010-12-17, 09:50 AM
Why would you play a Kobold? They have horrible racial traits.

mootoall
2010-12-17, 10:04 AM
I'm gonna throw my hat in for the gnomes here, for the sheer badassery that is the Whisper Gnome. I genuinely don't think there's anything more badass than something legitimately bred to sneak around and kill someone with pumped up gnomish quickrazor iajutsu focus. Also, factotums. Gnomes make excellent factotums. Both fluff and crunch-wise.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-17, 10:07 AM
I take you haven seen *this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm) or this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) upgrades to Kobolds my good troll, and that is not een touching all the goodies brought by Races of the Dragon

Yes sir, Kobolds are one of my favourite races, why do you ask?

*You need to check the Desert and jungle varieties

AtlanteanTroll
2010-12-17, 10:13 AM
I take you haven seen *this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm) or this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) upgrades to Kobolds my good troll, and that is not een touching all the goodies brought by Races of the Dragon

Yes sir, Kobolds are one of my favourite races, why do you ask?

*You need to check the Desert and jungle varieties

Bah, I hate adding extra varieties. Kobolds are there to populate abandoned mines hunting rats for food, and Gnomes are there to be eccentric nut-jobs who make things go boom.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-17, 10:17 AM
I suppose I can't make you change your mind, so I will not try it, but I think that is a pretty simplistic view of them (both Kobolds and Gnomes); to each it's own I suppose.

Coidzor
2010-12-17, 11:24 AM
Bah, I hate adding extra varieties. Kobolds are there to populate abandoned mines hunting rats for food, and Gnomes are there to be eccentric nut-jobs who make things go boom.

Well, who made the mines? That's who we need to contact. Kobolds. Made the mines. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaFZTAOb7IE) :smallamused:

Lord Vukodlak
2010-12-17, 02:49 PM
Well, I read Garl's version of the story, and it seemed like he went Genocidicles just for a laugh. On mortals no less. If that is not an evil act, I don't know what is. Oh, did I mention, he didn't apologise ? Or that no other god apart from Io did anything to fix Garl's mistake ? Would revenge after betrayal condemn a race to an evil tag ?

Did you read Garl's side of the story? Only Kurtulmak's tale makes any mention of there being other kobolds being harmed in the collapse.

In one version of the tale Kurtulmak intended to play a great prank. He would invite all other racial deities for a great feast where he would tell them a tale[of how he stole sorcery from Tiamat], at the end he would pull out a ornate stone trigger and bury the assembled deities alive. Garl came upon the cavern and pulled out the stone burying the kobold god in his own trap.
The kobolds claim out of jealousy while the Gnomes say just to see if it actually work or that the key stone resembled his holy symbol.

Another version of the tale has Garl collapsing the cave while Kurtulmak was hosting Asemodeus. The archdevil was not pleased. In either version the only one harmed was Kurtulmak.

Kurtulmak's version of the tale doesn't hold water, it doesn't match alignments for any of the deities involved[except Io]. And it makes him out as this absolute perfect genius. The only part that makes any sense is that he'd pick personal power over restoring the lives of all those who were lost.

Bayar
2010-12-17, 06:25 PM
Here's a tough exercise: Switch good and evil alligments and tags from everything in D&D. Would that make Garl's story false or no longer make sense ?

Gamerlord
2010-12-17, 06:29 PM
Let me see.

KOBOLDS:
Crazy awesome little sorcerer dudes who worship dragons.

GNOMES:
Short annoying people who wander around being useless, and dying.

Tvtyrant
2010-12-17, 06:30 PM
Gnomes: Capable of using shadow magic so powerful it can replicate evocation better then the original.

Kobolds: Small things that are useful for PunPun.

I like the Gnomes better myself, but Kobolds are cool too.

Zonugal
2010-12-17, 06:33 PM
I'm a pretty big fan of forest gnomes as I tend to play them more like the Vietcong rather than tinkerers. Pass Without Trace at will and boosts to illusion & alchemy can make them into very good guerrilla warriors.

darbythegambler
2010-12-17, 06:44 PM
why choose? they both make great ammo for the Hulking Hurler in the party :smallbiggrin:

Dr.Epic
2010-12-17, 06:44 PM
Gnomes are crazy and who doesn't want to play a crazy race?:smalltongue:

hamishspence
2010-12-17, 06:53 PM
Well, Revenants are still evil, after all. And so is letting oneself actually be consumed by the desire for revenge..

Actually, in Monsters of Faerun, and repeated in City of the Spider Queen- Revenants default to True Neutral.

In 3rd ed, when a race is described as "usually evil" this is normally a mix of inborn tendencies and cultural tendencies (which reinforce inborn ones).

However, there's always room for exceptions. And kobold communities dominated by nonevil power centers, in Races of the Dragon, are not all that rare.

Plus, when PHB mentions inborn tendencies, it also states some creatures have them to a greater extent, some to a lesser extent- the example given was "usually Lawful evil" (both kobolds and beholders)

and it also said kobolds have much weaker inborn lawful evil tendencies, than beholders do.

As to "who started the fight between the two" the Faerun timeline book A Grand History of the Realms has gnome souls being incarnated in gems, kolbolds "being greedy and uncaring" mining up the gems, and Garl going on a "rescue mission" to retreive the gnome souls from the kobolds- and in the escape, collapsing the kolbold home.

It follows Races of the Dragon fairly closely in most respects (born from blood of a dragon)- but the portrayal of the mine collapse is different.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-12-17, 07:29 PM
Here's a tough exercise: Switch good and evil alignment and tags from everything in D&D. Would that make Garl's story false or no longer make sense ?

The story still makes no sense as none of the good gods interfered or did anything about it. Switching the alignment tags means you have a lawful good kobold god who teaches his people to pillage and plunder and hate all races[gnomes are just the most hated]


Gnomes are crazy and who doesn't want to play a crazy race?:smalltongue:

Anyone who plays Kobolds OR Gnomes.

Coidzor
2010-12-17, 08:53 PM
The story still makes no sense as none of the good gods interfered or did anything about it.

Gods are kinda lazy, even the good ones, such that them interfering, even when other gods are already on the scene is kinda rare unless it has personal ramifications.

AtlanteanTroll
2010-12-17, 09:31 PM
Well, who made the mines? That's who we need to contact. Kobolds. Made the mines. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaFZTAOb7IE) :smallamused:

Not in my campaign... :smalltongue:

JaronK
2010-12-17, 09:44 PM
Here's a tough exercise: Switch good and evil alligments and tags from everything in D&D. Would that make Garl's story false or no longer make sense ?

Now you're getting into Pelor: The Burning Hate (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor_the_Burning_Hate) territory. Which is awesome, of course, so carry on.

JaronK

Milo v3
2010-12-17, 10:38 PM
Firstly I have no idea what "Whisper Gnomes" are. :smallconfused:
I don't think I own any book with any mention of them in it (At all). I think from now on we should restrict ourselves to talking about the standard Gnomes & Kobolds (No subraces or Dragonwrought:smallwink:).

I must say that I now see a use for Gnomes:
- Testing Kobold Traps
- Dinner
- Target Practice
- Bombs
Thank you MeeposFire & FelixG.:smallbiggrin:

History

Orginally said by crazedloon
the "atrocities" are only committed if you believe the evil creature version of a story. And again that same god is good aligned which is not an opinion in DnD it is a fact.
1. So you would believe the words of the God of Pranks and Trickery over a race of Lawful Draconic creatures with large lifespans.

2. Have you not heard that "History is written by the victor". That is why all the "Standard races" hate the kobolds. The Humans, elves, and dwarves where told lies from a god of pranking (And they were foolish enougth to believe it).

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-17, 10:41 PM
Firstly I have no idea what "Whisper Gnomes" are. :smallconfused:
I don't think I own any book with any mention of them in it (At all). I think from now on we should restrict ourselves to talking about the standard Gnomes & Kobolds (No subraces or Dragonwrought:smallwink:).

I must say that I now see a use for Gnomes:
- Testing Kobold Traps
- Dinner
- Target Practice
- Bombs
Thank you MeeposFire & FelixG.:smallbiggrin:

History

1. So you would believe the words of the God of Pranks and Trickery over a race of Lawful Draconic creatures with large lifespans.

2. Have you not heard that "History is written by the victor". That is why all the "Standard races" hate the kobolds. The Humans, elves, and dwarves where told lies from a god of pranking (And they were foolish enougth to believe it).



Knock yourself out with the Whisper Gnomes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3) (the only type of gnome I would consider to play)

absolmorph
2010-12-17, 10:46 PM
Here's a tough exercise: Switch good and evil alligments and tags from everything in D&D. Would that make Garl's story false or no longer make sense ?
The story you're talking about is told by a god bent on revenge and his clerics.
Why are you taking it as a reliable source?

FelixG
2010-12-17, 10:50 PM
The story you're talking about is told by a god bent on revenge and his clerics.
Why are you taking it as a reliable source?

The same reason anyone takes any gods story as the truth?

Both are just as likely to be the true story so its up to the GM to decide what happened

Milo v3
2010-12-17, 10:51 PM
Part 2

Alignment

Originally Posted by crazedloon
To begin with most people do not play kobolds because they are normally evil. In DnD an alignment is not racial stigmatization or lies about a race it is cold hard fact. So no matter if you read the story of the glittergolds "betrayal" for the gnomes or for the kobolds the race as a whole are evil.
Yes Alignment are "Forces that Define the Cosmos" (Direct quote from PBH). But what shapes alignment in Humanoids? It is your social & emotional environment & your actions as a reaction to that environment. The kobolds were not orginally evil. No they were lawful neutral. Then the Atrocity happened....
To take blame of himself the God of Prank's lied. The other gods believed him and began to see kobolds as evil creatures. The reaction to this environment caused them to start acting evil and thus it is because Garl that Kobolds are currently evil

Note:Lets try and keep this fair only the cannon (No homebrew, whisper gnomes, or tucker Kobolds) & no variants (Subraces, Dragonwrought, Unearthed Arcana, or Whisper Gnomes). Okay this is just a fight between Standard kobolds & Standard Gnomes (PHB Or Dragonlance variety)

Milo v3
2010-12-17, 10:58 PM
Part 3
Firstly I would just like to clarify Standard races: As in PHB stats without MM or Races Of The Dragon (For Kobolds).

Mining

-mining aint something a PC does and if you want a miner you play a dwarf

It would be very rare to mine in D&D. But in certain situations your players might think it will be the fastest way of doing something or the DM put's it in the adventure. Also why would you play as a dwarf when your mining. Firstly kobolds get +2 on mining, and second individually kobolds mine as fast as dwarves (Yet as kobolds are smaller they can get more kobolds working in one space and mine faster).

Duos Greanleef
2010-12-17, 11:00 PM
In my world (three campaigns ago), I went out of my way to make kobolds civilized and gnomes barbaric.
The kobolds had turned their trapmaking skills on the forest around their mountain for the purpose of philanthropy to the human settlement trying to get on it's feet. Like little scaly Squantos.
The gnomes were cannibals. More like goblins really. A raiding party was as likely to kill each other as the marked town.
Needless to say, my PCs didn't know what to make of it.

Milo v3
2010-12-17, 11:07 PM
Part Four
This will consern two things: Dire Weasels and Beetle armour.

Dire Weasels

how can they be better at training dire weasels when the gnome can talk to the weasel and ask it to ride it.

If you read the Gnome entry you would see that gnomes can only talk to Burrowing animals. Dire Weasels aren't burrowing animals. They don't have a burrowing speed and they live in temperate hills. Not Burrowing. And the most common animal companion for kobold rangers (Or Paladins) are Dire Weasels.


Armour

so they can make subpar armor instead of spending the same skill on making useful armor... truelly a gift
How is +1 max Dexterity bonus sub-par? Last time I checked being able to move better in armor is a good thing. Especially as Beetle armour has no extra penalties.

Serpentine
2010-12-17, 11:07 PM
To take blame of himself the God of Prank's lied.According to who? The Evil, vindictive enemy-god Hells-bent on revenge who refused, according to his own story, to save his own people.
At most, you can say it's one's word against the other. There is no more reason to take Kurtelmuck's word as Gospel over Garl's.

Fun aside: I suspect that in my world, Garl and Kurtel would be aspects of the same over-deity. Unless the latter would be the Father rather than the Trickster...

woodenbandman
2010-12-17, 11:10 PM
Why does everyone treat gnomes like the jews of the DnD universe?

Milo v3
2010-12-17, 11:13 PM
Part Five (I think)

Sorcery

-they are better sorcerers but than only if you break kobolds with feats (and fluff wise that is only a select few in an entire populace while the others are just as good if not weaker than other races)
First take note of thier Favoured Class: Sorcerer. Second the "Draconic Rite of Passage" (its not a feat), allows the Kobold to cast a sorcerer spell 1/day. Kobold sorcerers commonly teach young sorcerers how to use thier powers (No other race can do that). Must I go on, and note that not one of these has to do with a feat.

Milo v3
2010-12-17, 11:18 PM
This is a brake in the series to answer a question. How nice of me?


Why does everyone treat gnomes like the jews of the DnD universe?


Answer: Read my posts and many on the first page. Also I don't want to destroy the souls of all Jewish people. That would be wrong.

absolmorph
2010-12-17, 11:20 PM
Guys, I think the answer to this entire thread is obvious.
Look at Milo v3's avatar.
It's a kobold.
What are kobolds infamous for?
http://www.ackbar.org/images/ackbar.jpg

Milo v3
2010-12-17, 11:29 PM
It is a trap!:smalltongue:

What? Someone had to say it. And he did basically say that I placed the trap. Like a kobold I must say.

I made my Avatar a kobold because it was the closest to Deekin Scalesinger (my hero and the person who started my Kobold obssession).

Milo v3
2010-12-17, 11:35 PM
So any more arguments?

If not then the kobolds win. I also might add that to combat you I will send thousands of facts that prove my point until they get through (A kobold tatic).
It should also be said that I love a good fight. And the reason I started this thread was to prove to one of my teachers Kobolds aren't as weak as he thinks.

Milo v3
2010-12-17, 11:57 PM
I just noticed one of you said that Kurtulmak is jealous, in that he could of revieved the Kobolds and his lair but choose to make himself a god.

Who ever said that is very wrong. Io gave him two choices either give him the power to rebuild the mine but lose his kin forever, or lead the kobolds as before and lose the mine of endless resources for eternity. Kurtulmak chose the latter and became the patron of kobolds.

Also to the people that say he had Asmodeus with him at the time of the collapse think. Why would a being of such power be talking to a mortal such as Kurtulmak. Remember this was before he became a god.

MeeposFire
2010-12-18, 12:19 AM
To be honest I think some of you take this too seriously (really builds? I guess I am the only one who thought we are supposed to write funny stuff).

My hero was my Dragonfire adept Kobold. He took his name from the great Kobold Meepo. He was well known for causing distractions with flour. He was way too much fun, talked like caespanar from Baldur's Gate 2.

"Meepo is a good Kobold oh yes!"

Lord Vukodlak
2010-12-18, 12:28 AM
1. So you would believe the words of the God of Pranks and Trickery over a race of Lawful Draconic creatures with large lifespans.


You forgot one thing "lawful evil" draconic creatures who worship a god of trickery. Both Garl and Kurtulmak have the trickery domain. Also gnomes live far longer then kobolds.
Kobold 120+Charisma
Gnomes 200+3d%[so up to five hundred years]

History also isn't written by the winner its written by the survivors. Just because the kobolds lost doesn't mean there god wasn't an evil SOB planing to bury all the other racial deities in a trap.

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 12:29 AM
I'm not trying to use builds to prove my point. Most of the stuff I've written wasn't even mechanics. But history and Logical ways to prove Kobolds aren't really that evil.

Kurtulmak wasn't a god at the time so he couldn't of had racial deities anywhere near him. Why would they be thier anyway. Also he is a Lawful god the only reason trickery is one of his domains is because of the expert used of traps kobolds use (Which are hidden and thus trickery).

absolmorph
2010-12-18, 12:36 AM
Kurtulmak: Lawful Evil (does not mean honorable or honest, by the way) deity hell-bent on revenge who teaches his followers to hate everyone else, with a focus on gnomes.
Garl Glittergold: Neutral Good deity of protection, humor and trickery who favors gnomes and teaches people that pranks are good.

The story in which Kurtulmak is given the choice by Io? Told by Kurtulmak and his followers.
Oh, and want to know how Garl collapsed it?
He triggered a trap Kurtulmak had lain in preparation for killing all the other deities while they were feasting.
Or he collapsed it while Kurtulmak (born a god, from one of Tiamat's eggs) was hosting Asmodeus.
Note that only ONE version notes any kobolds being killed, and that's the one told by Kurtulmak and his followers.

If it had actually killed a large number of kobolds, it would be an Evil act. Capital E. In DnD, Good and Evil are quantifiable values that can be placed on beings. Garl is Good. Good doesn't like killing.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-12-18, 12:38 AM
Also to the people that say he had Asmodeus with him at the time of the collapse think. Why would a being of such power be talking to a mortal such as Kurtulmak. Remember this was before he became a god.

Because Kurtulmak was already a god, in the other versions of the legend. Kurtulmak was a deity from birth, an accidental offspring when Tiamat caused one of her eggs to hatch prematurely.


I'm not trying to use builds to prove my point. Most of the stuff I've written wasn't even mechanics. But history and Logical ways to prove Kobolds aren't really that evil.

Here's some proof from the MM.
They send out warbands within a 10-mile radius of the lair attacking any intelligent creatures that enter there territory. They kill prisoners for food or sell them as slaves and there god despises all living creatures who aren't kobolds.

You made the claim that being a "long" lived lawful race some how made them more trust worthy then a longer lived non-draconic race. You said the Garl was a god of trickery but so is Kurtulmak.

Serpentine
2010-12-18, 12:40 AM
I think I'm gonna houserule reality for my game... In reality, there were some innocent kobolds there but not nearly as many as they say. It was a Bad Thing for Garl to do, though, and he feels/felt guilty about it, but Kurtlemuck won't give him any opportunity to make it up.

Psyren
2010-12-18, 12:40 AM
I love how often Kurtulmak's story is used as "evidence"

Do you also believe Zarus, Lloth, or Grummsh are telling their people unbiased, unvarnished truth? If so, I have a bridge to Bytopia with an amazing asking price...

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 12:53 AM
Yes I realise that Lawful doesn't mean honest. I also realize that his want of revenge at any cost makes him evil (As is says in BoVD).
Also he wasn't a deity from birth he was just the first kobold ever. He didn't come from tiamat's egg. He came from Caesinsjach's blood.

And why do people think that only Kurtulmak was the only kobold thier. It is a Kobold mine. Thier were at least 10,001 (The smallest amount of kobolds in a small colony) as this was his "Perfect" Mine.

Also
It was a Bad Thing for Garl to do, though, and he feels/felt guilty about it, but Kurtlemuck won't give him any opportunity to make it up.

Yes he feels so sorry he tells his people to attack the kobolds. He had the Opportunity to make it up. When Kurtulmak was on the verge of dieing and everyone else in the mine was dead. But no, only Io did anything (At all).

Lord Vukodlak
2010-12-18, 01:02 AM
Also he wasn't a deity from birth he was just the first kobold ever. He didn't come from tiamat's egg. He came from Caesinsjach's blood.

According to Kurtulmak, his other origin story has him born a god from one of Tiamats eggs. An accidental birth but still born a god.



And why do people think that only Kurtulmak was the only kobold their. It is a Kobold mine.
Because in the other version of the tale has Kurtulmak expressly making the place for the purpose of collapsing it on someone. And It makes no mention of other kobolds helping him make it. So either they weren't there or we was going to kill his own people.

absolmorph
2010-12-18, 01:06 AM
Also he wasn't a deity from birth he was just the first kobold ever. He didn't come from tiamat's egg. He came from Caesinsjach's blood.
According to his story. He is not a reliable source.



And why do people think that only Kurtulmak was the only kobold thier. It is a Kobold mine.
According to his story. He is not a reliable source.

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 01:11 AM
Think realistically for a second, why would he want to harm anyone at that time. The reason he hates other races now is because they didn't help him or fix the injustice (thats realistic). So sorry if I don't think he was trying kill deities. Its just he had no motive. Garl Glittergold on the other hand had a motive.
Is it really that hard to figure out?

Also where does it say these other Orgin stories? What books are they in because I don't have them? Unless they are 4.0.

MeeposFire
2010-12-18, 01:16 AM
Why are we worrying about reliable sources when it comes to origin myths? They all are suspect. It is possible the gods do not even know.

The important part is shifty is the better racial power :smalltongue:.

Also kobolds are cuter and are the ultimate underdog (in fact they used to sound like dogs but that ship has sailed). Of course kobolds attack all that come into their territory as seemingly everything that does wants to kill them. Poor little guys...

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 01:23 AM
MeeposFire is right. They're Myths and really it depends on the campaign setting. So are their any ways you can think of that make gnomes better then Kobolds? I can't think of a single one.

Psyren
2010-12-18, 01:30 AM
Your avatars lead me to believe this debate was doomed from the outset.

FelixG
2010-12-18, 01:35 AM
I love how often Kurtulmak's story is used as "evidence"

Do you also believe Zarus, Lloth, or Grummsh are telling their people unbiased, unvarnished truth? If so, I have a bridge to Bytopia with an amazing asking price...

Do you think any god will tell all their followers the unmodified truth? They are all liars and glory hounds :smallbiggrin:

Its pretty much pick and choose who to believe and that is the true story as there is no hard fact for people to go on, just myth.

MeeposFire
2010-12-18, 01:37 AM
Of course you are doomed!

We, your future koboldy masters shall take over and force you to let us mine to our hearts content. We will then serve our dragon masters who will enslave us forever and ever. All hail our dragon king!

EDIT: Speaking about avatars there are not enough kobold avatars! Of course you can never have enough kobold avatars...

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 01:39 AM
We are not enslaved. We want our divine bretheren to have all thier desires as they are Gods in tangibal form.

Edit: Yes why aren't thier more Kobold avatars.
Kobold Miners, Kobold Dire Weasel Riders, Kobold Warriors in Beetle Full plate, Kobold Sorcerers, Kurtulmak himself, Deekin. Yes thier are thousand of options.

FelixG
2010-12-18, 01:43 AM
Of course you are doomed!

We, your future koboldy masters shall take over and force you to let us mine to our hearts content. We will then serve our dragon masters who will enslave us forever and ever. All hail our dragon king!

EDIT: Speaking about avatars there are not enough kobold avatars! Of course you can never have enough kobold avatars...

Until the illithids take over anyway :smallbiggrin:

absolmorph
2010-12-18, 01:47 AM
Until the illithids take over anyway :smallbiggrin:
I, for one, welcome our new Tippyverse overlords.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-12-18, 01:51 AM
Think realistically for a second, why would he want to harm anyone at that time.
He planed to collapse the cavern on the other racial deities as a prank after inviting them to a grand feast. Garl wanted to see if pulling the keystone would really collapse the entire hall. It did.
Remember they both have the trickery domain,



The reason he hates other races now is because they didn't help him or fix the injustice (thats realistic). So sorry if I don't think he was trying kill deities. Its just he had no motive.
Not kill just collapse a cavern on them for laughs, they are gods after all.
Garl ruined his plans and hurt his pride thus he hates gnomes. Being of the same blood as chromatic dragons is enough to make him evil.


Garl Glittergold on the other hand had a motive.
What motive? the entire thing is colored from the Kobolds point of view. Nothing in Garl's description denotes a jealous individual. It explicitly states he believes its better to humiliating or befuddle your foes then outright slay them. The kobold version of the tale doesn't not compute with Garl's alignment and established behavior thus its suspect. But the other version fits with both alignments of the deities.



Also where does it say these other Origin stories? What books are they in because I don't have them? Unless they are 4.0.
Ecology of a Kobold from Dragon Magazine, 2nd edition books, Forgotten realms material. [where it says he pretended to be captured before he collapsed the cavern on the kobold deities head. Deities and Demi-Gods also references the event, but simply states it was Kurtulmak's cavern, and it only hurt his pride as a miner and a trickster.

Edit:That took a damn long time to write and I'll be damned if I wasn't going to post it.

Now lets look at what gnomes can do.
They have a +1 DC to illusion, so naturally they make good illusionists.
Put it with spell focus and greater focus and suddenly foes are failing both saves vs phantasmal killer.
+3 is nothing to sneeze at.

Small Sized with a Con bonus, perfect for a d4 caster more AC and more hit points.
They are resistant to illusionists which has minor benefits,
All gnomes with a charisma of 10 can cast prestidigitation whats not to love.

Gnomes get bonuses vs goblins and giants very common enemies for PC's

Shadowgnomer killer, nuff said,

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 01:53 AM
Ah yes the Mindflayers must win. As they are from the future. But then again my theory is that:
The Mindflayers come back in time and lose in thier war agianst the humans. Then a great catacysm occurs ending magic. The humans then find ilthid artefacts and slowly learn psionics. Eventually then begin to do experiments on themselves to fully unlock the psychic power within and the result is "Mindflayers". Then after millenia they forget they were once humans. Soon afterwards, the world is going to end so they go back in time
Technically it is a time paradox because if the mindflayers didn't go back in time they wouldn't of existed at all.

Also aren't we off the Myths. Because they can't be disproven nor proven. Quote: All the Gods are backstabbing liars. Strangly I've forgotten who said that.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-12-18, 01:59 AM
Ah yes the Mindflayers must win. As they are from the future. But then again my theory is that:
The Mindflayers come back in time and lose in thier war agianst the humans. Then a great catacysm occurs ending magic. The humans then find ilthid artefacts and slowly learn psionics. Eventually then begin to do experiments on themselves to fully unlock the psychic power within and the result is "Mindflayers". Then after millenia they forget they were once humans. Soon after the world is going to end so they go back in time
Technically it is a time paradox because if the mindflayers didn't go back in time they wouldn't of existed at all.

Also aren't we off the Myths. Because they can't be disproven nor proven. Quote: All the Gods are backstabbing liars. Strangly I've forgotten who said that.

It took me a while to write all that, I missed a few posts in between.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-12-18, 02:01 AM
Ah yes the Mindflayers must win. As they are from the future. But then again my theory is that:
The Mindflayers come back in time and lose in thier war agianst the humans. Then a great catacysm occurs ending magic. The humans then find ilthid artefacts and slowly learn psionics. Eventually then begin to do experiments on themselves to fully unlock the psychic power within and the result is "Mindflayers". Then after millenia they forget they were once humans. Soon afterwards, the world is going to end so they go back in time
Technically it is a time paradox because if the mindflayers didn't go back in time they wouldn't of existed at all.

Also aren't we off the Myths. Because they can't be disproven nor proven. Quote: All the Gods are backstabbing liars. Strangly I've forgotten who said that.

Actually unless there is a direct link between the mindflayers being a part of the universe and the cataclysm isn't a paradox

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 02:02 AM
I know what you mean Lord Vukodlak ! It's ok.

And the paradox is a time loop in a way that the mindflayers shouldn't exist.

You see the only reason mindflayers exist is that mindflayers went back in time and the humans found the tech that the mindflayers made which turn out to be actually humans. So the mindflayers served as the catalyist for the mindflayers. For them to exist they would have to existed before they existed.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-12-18, 02:03 AM
Prepare for our Mindflaying masters?

MeeposFire
2010-12-18, 02:10 AM
All time travel is a paradox if it said you are changing something. Gargoyles the show has time travel in a way that is not a paradox.

Speaking of gargoyles they are what I imagine when I think of kobolds with wings.

"Meepo had family once. They killed defending home from nasty adventures. Not like you, you friends. No these were bad adventurers who killed my people and stole our tribute to our patron. They broke our eggs. Many families were broken and family is so important to us. Meepo gets sad thinking of that time. Meepo was lucky as he was chosen to learn the craft of the dragons fire. Too bad adventurers killed the great dragon too"

Part of Meepo's old back story. That would be my Meepo not the actual Meepo. He was always a friendly sort a group favorite.

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 02:13 AM
Poor Meepo:smallfrown:
This is what I mean by Kobolds aren't evil. It is the Paladin's that are truly evil. They don't think about the Evil dragons family. They don't think about the kobolds family. They don't care as long as they don't break thier vows.

My two hates are Gnomes & Paladins. Especially Gnomish Paladins

MeeposFire
2010-12-18, 02:18 AM
If paladins took the time to continually check to make sure everything is as they thought it is a paladin would be in a lot of trouble, especially if they really thought about alignment.

Meepo always thought that kobolds worst problem is their xenophobia and lack of contact with the outside world. Its not like humans are so great. Other cultures know not the real kobold. Fortunately none of Meepos companions are gnomes or he would have to put his views to the test. More contact would make Kobolds more friendly and perhaps other races would not attack them all the time. The other problem is that kobolds reproduce so fast if we are not killed we need to expand to feed us.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-12-18, 02:28 AM
Timetravel stuff:
Time travel isn't a paradox if you take it far enough.
Timeline1 doesn't have Mindflayers. A catastrophe kills magic and humans evolve slowly into Mindflayers. Mindflayers travel back in time cause their world is gonna end. This changes history and causes changes to the Timeline creating Timeline2

Timeline2 has Mindflayers from the future. the changes are enough to alter the circumstances of how, why and who goes back in time as Mindflayers and they do different things. IF these changes to the makeup of the Mindflayer team or what they do go to Timeline3, if not go to TimelineX.

Timeline3 has the altered Mindflayers. IF this changes the makeup of the team or what they do go to Timeline3 and repeat until it doesn't. When it doesn't go to TimelineX

TimelineX is a loop. The Mindflayers going back causes the exact changes documented as happening. You have changed time but you have not caused a Paradox as there are no discrepancies between recorded history and what the mindflayers do back in the past.

Go Kobolds. Gnomes are only good for eating

absolmorph
2010-12-18, 02:29 AM
Poor Meepo:smallfrown:
This is what I mean by Kobolds aren't evil. It is the Paladin's that are truly evil. They don't think about the Evil dragons family. They don't think about the kobolds family. They don't care as long as they don't break thier vows.

My two hates are Gnomes & Paladins. Especially Gnomish Paladins
Those aren't Paladins. Paladins are Good. In DnD, Good and Evil are observable traits. If you direct Detect Good at a Paladin and the spell says the Paladin is Good, then the Paladin is Good, regardless of whatever claims you may make to the contrary.

Your petty attempt at hiding the truth is a failure, kobold.

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 02:31 AM
The fast reproductive rate is in the best interest of Kobold's. It allows them to mine faster, have more warriors, more sorcerers, more Kobold land when they expand.
And non-xenophobic kobolds are prejudiced against. But you can't hate Deekin.

Also thier are many paladin's that slay evil kobolds and dragons, but forget the evil creatures loved ones.

My theory isn't just time travel it is time loop and a paradox as well:

Timeline1 doesn't have Mindflayers. A catastrophe kills magic and humans evolve slowly into Mindflayers. Mindflayers travel back in time cause their world is gonna end. This changes history and causes changes to the Timeline creating Timeline2
You see they never evolve into mindflayers in Timeline 1 because they don't have the mindflayer artefact which causes the evolution experiments. Because the Mindflayers only exist because they went back in time. But in timeline 1 thier wouldn't have existed and thus not able to travel back in time thus they couldn't have evolved thus they couldn't of ..............

MeeposFire
2010-12-18, 02:43 AM
Those aren't Paladins. Paladins are Good. In DnD, Good and Evil are observable traits. If you direct Detect Good at a Paladin and the spell says the Paladin is Good, then the Paladin is Good, regardless of whatever claims you may make to the contrary.

Your petty attempt at hiding the truth is a failure, kobold.

The paladin is only good because nobody has gone in depth into their actions. Frankly nobody wants to, its a pain in the butt. No alignment conversation ever makes sense if you go long enough into the conversation.

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 02:58 AM
Yet again MeeposFire is right. If you deelve deep enough into an action you see everything is down to perspective. Even if Good & Evil are parts of the Cosmos.

absolmorph
2010-12-18, 03:20 AM
The paladin is only good because nobody has gone in depth into their actions. Frankly nobody wants to, its a pain in the butt. No alignment conversation ever makes sense if you go long enough into the conversation.

Yet again MeeposFire is right. If you deelve deep enough into an action you see everything is down to perspective. Even if Good & Evil are parts of the Cosmos.
DnD has a fundamentally different Good and Evil than we do. Their Good and Evil are defined. Ours are not. Ours are influenced by culture, perspective, experience, etc.
Our Good and Evil are subjective ideas which can be argued back and forth all day without an agreed-upon definition being reached, no matter how long the argument goes on for.
In DnD, you can say "Lolth is Evil" and know that it's fact because if you use Detect Evil on Lolth, you detect Evil. There is no wiggle room in this.

Coidzor
2010-12-18, 04:28 AM
The same reason anyone takes any gods story as the truth?

Both are just as likely to be the true story so its up to the GM to decide what happened

Indeed, both are just as likely to be the true story, which is to say, that there's not a Snow Golem's chance in Dis that either one of them is true. They're gods, they lie to their sheep. And depending upon whether you're in Planescape or not, either it stays a lie or it warps reality until whichever one is believed more becomes true.

And isn't that horrifying. "Believe hard little kobold, and there just might have been a huge slaughter of your people in the ancient past to give justification for your raid to go out and kill a bunch of gnomes for being gnomes."

FelixG
2010-12-18, 05:05 AM
And isn't that horrifying. "Believe hard little kobold, and there just might have been a huge slaughter of your people in the ancient past to give justification for your raid to go out and kill a bunch of gnomes for being gnomes."

In the kobolds defense they may be the only sane group in the DND multiverse as to any well thinking person should be out to kill a bunch of gnomes just for the fact that they are gnomes.

No one needs any other reason to kill them!

DragonOfUndeath
2010-12-18, 05:10 AM
In the kobolds defense they may be the only sane group in the DND multiverse as to any well thinking person should be out to kill a bunch of gnomes just for the fact that they are gnomes.

No one needs any other reason to kill them!

They taste good when the poison from the trap is removed.
Gnomes: Trap "Finders" and Dinner. What more could you ask for?

absolmorph
2010-12-18, 05:14 AM
In the kobolds gnomes' defense they may be the only sane group in the DND multiverse as to any well thinking person should be out to kill a bunch of gnomes kobolds just for the fact that they are gnomes kobolds.

No one needs any other reason to kill them!
The quote still makes just as much sense.

FelixG
2010-12-18, 05:17 AM
The quote still makes just as much sense.

No it doesn't because people who kill Kobolds just for being Kobolds are not right minded people! :smallbiggrin:

IIRC Gnomes dont go out of their way to kill Kobolds, they try to avoid them and will kill them if necessary, again IIRC they dont quite get why the kobolds are so pissy with them

Coidzor
2010-12-18, 05:21 AM
No it doesn't because people who kill Kobolds just for being Kobolds are not right minded people! :smallbiggrin:

If liking KFK is wrong, then I don't wanna be right. :smallamused: With eleven secrets herbs and spices, you can't go wrong when you go with the Marshall.

MeeposFire
2010-12-18, 05:28 AM
Trust me when you have curried gnome you never go back.

Coidzor
2010-12-18, 05:29 AM
Trust me when you have curried gnome you never go back.

Ooo, gnome curry! Going to have to keep that one in mind. :smallbiggrin: That's going right in there with elf pudding.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-12-18, 05:31 AM
Trust me when you have curried gnome you never go back.

I prefer a spit roast gnome with maybe a hint of vinegar and a dash of rosemary

have you tried Aasimar honey roasted with some roast potato? divine :smalltongue:

I haven't tried Elf Pudding. I've heard Wizards are the best but they keep running away and dodging my traps

FelixG
2010-12-18, 05:45 AM
I am very tempted to make a DnD cooking thread "Post your favorite recipes involving any core 3.P creature!"

Volthawk
2010-12-18, 05:48 AM
Welll, I prefer kobolds, since they have a real purpose. Gnomes...I'm not too sure what the point of them are. They're just another good race. Kobolds, however, have a purpose in the world. They supply dragons with their hoards, so if we had no kobolds, then dragons would have no hoard, so they might actually go out and do more stuff (say, killing people, taking their stuff) rather than chill in their caves.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-12-18, 05:49 AM
I am very tempted to make a DnD cooking thread "Post your favorite recipes involving any core 3.P creature!"

you totally should

MeeposFire
2010-12-18, 05:52 AM
I am very tempted to make a DnD cooking thread "Post your favorite recipes involving any core 3.P creature!"

I am tempted too. I might do that tomorrow if you don't. I will put up my gnome curry recipe.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-12-18, 05:56 AM
Any tips on a Half-Elf Paladin? I got him while hunting Elves. very Combat-Oriented with massive Armour

FelixG
2010-12-18, 05:57 AM
Any tips on a Half-Elf Paladin? I got him while hunting Elves. very Combat-Oriented with massive Armour

Armor wrapped elf is pretty good, if cooked properly! Just make sure you have a way to peal before hand

Set
2010-12-18, 06:18 AM
Kobolds are seen as underpowered cannonfodder and gnomes are seen as little inventors. This thread is to change the common sterotypes of these to races.

D&D has two kinds of kobolds. There's the first and second edition kobolds, which are cowardly yappy little dog-men. Then there's the third and fourth edition kobolds, which are megalomaniac little wannabe dragon-men.

There's also the kobolds of myth and lore, who may have been pretty awesome crafters, and were a big threat to miners.

My choice is to have both.

The 'kobold' is a small subterranean humanoid, light-sensitive, furry and with features of human, dog and ape. They can run on all fours, using their longer-than-expected arms (and bandy legs), moving at 30 ft., faster than most Small humanoids, or move at 20 ft. while standing erect and using weapons. Despite being primitive culturally, they are surprisingly clever at smithwork and forging, having better than average weapons for their area, and the best-equipped hobgoblin armies use kobold-forged weapons and armor. Despite their small size and savage appearance, the kobolds know quite well the value of their skill with smithcraft, and are more likely to be treated less abusively by the larger humanoids they work with than other weak races, like goblins.

The wyrmkin are also small humanoids, reptilian and not necessarily subterranean (or light-sensitive), hatched in clutches from unfertilized eggs that female dragons lay annually, if they haven't mated. A single egg can produce anywhere from three to six wyrmkin, with scales the color of their 'mother,' whom they serve with wide-eyed fanatical devotion. Some female dragons keep the little cretins around as flunkies, others find them annoying or inconvenient and either devour them or drive them out of the lair to annoy other people. Some even trade them like pokemon with other dragonesses, so as to have appropriate breeding stock, since wyrmkin cannot mate with other wyrmkin from the same mother. Wyrmkin have kobold-like stats (but don't run on all fours, and aren't particularly good at metalcraft or mining), and some minor abilities relevant to the color of their mother, such as resistance to the element of her breath weapon equal to their HD (usuallly just 1), and a bonus to some skill or feature based on their mothers abilities (black, green and white wyrmkin get a bonus to swim checks and can hold their breath for a really long time, blue wyrmkin can imitate animal noises, white wyrmkin can treat snow & ice like normal terrain, red wyrmkin get a bonus to Fort checks to avoid damage from environmental heat, etc.).

Wild wyrmkin, cast out by their 'mothers' (or outliving her), occasionally interbreed with other colored wyrmkin, producing mixed-blood tribes with gray or brown scales (mottled with other colors, based on heritage) and no special traits, being somewhat like generic 3.X kobolds.


As for Gnomes, I emphasis their fey origins. So many centuries ago that the gnomes themselves don't even remember it, there was a great exodus from the world of the fey. From the Seelie courts, armies of tall graceful noble warriors and arcanists, and a smaller race of trickster fey, had spent countless generations opposing their Unseelie counterparts. Their unending conflict so infuriated the rest of the fey folk that a great magical working expelled them en masse from the fey world, never to return.

The descendents of the taller race became what are today called elves. The descendents of the smaller race are now the gnomes.

Their Unseelie counterparts have become known as the hobgoblins and the goblins, and there is some shadowy whispering that an elf or gnome who falls too far into savagry and evil can still physically transform into a hobgoblin or goblin (and, in theory, vice-versa, although no one admits to knowing of a hobgoblin or goblin being redeemed and becoming an elf or gnome in this manner, even if they admit that the reverse is possible).

In theory, the third goblinoid race, the bugbears, also represent an Unseelie race expelled from the fey world, but they do not appear to have a Seelie counterpart among the 'good races...' Perhaps the bugbears are every bit as deadly as they claim to be, and have, to the last, slaughtered their Seelie counterparts!

Both gnomes and goblins have an unnatural cunning, and combine artifice and trickery and trapcraft into a deadly whole. Take any mention of 'Tucker's Kobolds' and apply it instead to gnomes (and goblins), who are the masters of the dirty trick and the low blow. Gnomes, back in ye olde editions, were primarily lawful, and it might be fun to sharpen the divide between the Seelie gnomes and the Unseelie goblins (no longer possessing any significant fey traits, due to their long expulsion from the fey realms, now fully humanoid) by making the gnomes trend towards law (seeking order in all things), as well as good, and the goblins trending towards chaos (sowing disorder wherever they go), as well as evil. These fey-derived goblins might even have a few gnome-level cantrips, used towards malicious ends, and while a gnome can speak with burrowing animals, perhaps the goblins can speak with rats, bats, or vermin, or something appropriate. (Elves and hobgoblins would reverse this ethical alignment tendency, with the elves trending towards chaos and good, lovers of freedom and the arts, and the hobgoblins towards law and evil, championing cruelty and discipline.)

[Using this origin, the only mechanical changes warranted to the goblinoid races, elves and gnomes would be to swap around their racial hatreds. Gnomes wouldn't have a racial hatred of kobolds, they'd have instead a racial hatred of goblins, and vice-versa. Same with hobgoblins and elves, each having a race-hatred for their opposites. Bugbears, having committed genocide on whatever Seelie counterpart they once had, have expanded their race-hatred to everything and everyone, secure in the proven knowledge that they are the world's deadliest hunters, and the entire world is their prey...]

Bayar
2010-12-18, 06:25 AM
According to who? The Evil, vindictive enemy-god Hells-bent on revenge who refused, according to his own story, to save his own people.
At most, you can say it's one's word against the other. There is no more reason to take Kurtelmuck's word as Gospel over Garl's.

Fun aside: I suspect that in my world, Garl and Kurtel would be aspects of the same over-deity. Unless the latter would be the Father rather than the Trickster...

What ? He chose to become a god and ressurect his kin and be their paragon over saying "Screw you guys, I'll just save this perfect mine for myself." . How did he refuse to save his kin ?


Your avatars lead me to believe this debate was doomed from the outset.

Oh, I'm sure that there won't be any form of bias from you if someone would start bashing blue goblins.


According to his story. He is not a reliable source.

According to his story. He is not a reliable source.

And the other stories are according to Garl Glittergold, an annoying prick that plays tricks on everybody for the lolz, and then just smiles and says "Haha, got you ! Wasn't that amusing ?".


IIRC Gnomes dont go out of their way to kill Kobolds, they try to avoid them and will kill them if necessary, again IIRC they dont quite get why the kobolds are so pissy with them.

Gnomes are a race that gets bonuses to attack rolls when fighting goblinoids and kobolds. Because they fight them all the time. Do kobolds and goblinoids get bonus to attacks when fighting gnomes ? **** no. Kobolds need to be rangers with the kobold ranger substitution level and pick gnomes as a favored enemy to gain a bonus to attack against them.


Really, I enjoy gnomes in some cases (whisper gnomes and Eberron gnomes in particular). But discussions like this "Kobolds should die in a ****ing fire because they have a ****ing allignment tag that says USUALLY Lawful Evil so they are EVIL KILL KILL KILL, and gnomes are the innocent party they did nothing wrong why does anyone don't think of the poor gnomes ?" make me rage so much. So GODDAMN much.

Like I said. If Garl Glittergold was NE and Kurtulmak was LG, pre-ascention (when Kurtulmak and the other kobolds didn't even interacted with the other races and all they wanted was to mine their own niche in the earth), and Garl acted like Genocidicles and collapsed the mine over every single kobold, crushing them to death, wouldn't that give justification for revenge ? Wouldn't that make kobolds exactly what paladins are ? A race (as opposed to a class) bent of getting rid of the evil that done them wrong so long ago ? Would kobolds be so different to elves that are fighting orcs ? I think not.

FelixG
2010-12-18, 06:30 AM
awesome stuff

You really are living up to the quote in your sig :smallbiggrin:

absolmorph
2010-12-18, 06:48 AM
And the other stories are according to Garl Glittergold, an annoying prick that plays tricks on everybody for the lolz, and then just smiles and says "Haha, got you ! Wasn't that amusing ?".
They aren't associated with any god, actually.


Like I said. If Garl Glittergold was NE and Kurtulmak was LG, pre-ascention (when Kurtulmak and the other kobolds didn't even interacted with the other races and all they wanted was to mine their own niche in the earth), and Garl acted like Genocidicles and collapsed the mine over every single kobold, crushing them to death, wouldn't that give justification for revenge ? Wouldn't that make kobolds exactly what paladins are ? A race (as opposed to a class) bent of getting rid of the evil that done them wrong so long ago ? Would kobolds be so different to elves that are fighting orcs ? I think not.
That's a big "If", there. And that's claiming that two of the three stories are false (both say Kurtulmak was a god prior to the cavern being collapsed). The two stories that have some agreement, rather than completely contradicting all others.
Additionally, revenge is an Evil act. Paladins are not focused on revenge, they're focused on empowering Good.
Furthermore, you're assuming that all kobolds were in the cavern/mine when Garl collapsed it. That would require there being no strange kobolds who want to see the surface and leave their village, no kobolds who do something wrong and get exiled (which, in an LG society, would be likely).

Note that in none of my posts do I say that kobolds are evil and should be killed. I claim that Kurtulmak is Evil (a verifiable fact) and shouldn't be trusted. I say that his story (and those told by kobolds) are the only ones which vilify Garl. The rest say that Garl was appreciating his work in his trickster way (by using the trap he'd set for ALL THE OTHER DEITIES), or that Garl collapsed the cavern on Kurtulmak and Asmodeus, who Kurtulmak was hosting.
The only evidence that you have to support the kobolds being the victims comes from the mouths of the kobolds and their god, who seeks revenge on Garl.
As I've stated, those aren't reliable sources.

Radar
2010-12-18, 06:48 AM
Armor wrapped elf is pretty good, if cooked properly! Just make sure you have a way to peal before hand
There's a camping trick, that simplifies it: roast the elf in the armour and crack it open, when it's ready. It's difficult to add spices and such, but on a road trip one shouldn't be that picky. :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2010-12-18, 07:03 AM
There's a camping trick, that simplifies it: roast the elf in the armour and crack it open, when it's ready. It's difficult to add spices and such, but on a road trip one shouldn't be that picky. :smalltongue:

Liquid marinades can still work though. :smallbiggrin:


What ? He chose to become a god and ressurect his kin and be their paragon over saying "Screw you guys, I'll just save this perfect mine for myself." . How did he refuse to save his kin ?

Because he didn't do that in the story where any kobolds died, he just left 'em dead.


Really, I enjoy gnomes in some cases (whisper gnomes and Eberron gnomes in particular). But discussions like this "Kobolds should die in a ****ing fire because they have a ****ing allignment tag that says USUALLY Lawful Evil so they are EVIL KILL KILL KILL, and gnomes are the innocent party they did nothing wrong why does anyone don't think of the poor gnomes ?" make me rage so much. So GODDAMN much.


Well, then it's a good thing this discussion isn't actually like that at all then. I'd hate to see someone actually get upset over this.

hamishspence
2010-12-18, 08:17 AM
Note that in none of my posts do I say that kobolds are evil and should be killed. I claim that Kurtulmak is Evil (a verifiable fact) and shouldn't be trusted. I say that his story (and those told by kobolds) are the only ones which vilify Garl. The rest say that Garl was appreciating his work in his trickster way (by using the trap he'd set for ALL THE OTHER DEITIES), or that Garl collapsed the cavern on Kurtulmak and Asmodeus, who Kurtulmak was hosting.

The A Grand History of the Realms version has many of the same characters and locations- including the kobold realm of Darasrixhurthi, and the green dragon Caesinsjach, and kobolds been born from the blood of dragons, and Kurtulmak as "first of the dragonspawn".

It also has kobolds mining their way into gnome territory for the first time, enslaving the gnomes, and stealing their gems. Which, unknown to them, were gnome souls.

During the first Dracorage, while Caesinsjach was away, devastating her own empire, Garl took the opportunity to sneak into Kurtulkmak's realm, rescue those soul-gems- and collapse the cavern during his retreat, killing Kurtulmak and most of his people. The survivors were mostly devoured by the green dragon- who was still consumed by the Dracorage.

"Asgorath the World-Shaper" (possible alternate name for Io) seeing the devastation wrought by the dragons, felt the need to make restitution- so raised the dead Kurtulmak up as a deity to guard and protect the kobolds.

It also mentions that the winged kobolds, called urds, had fled during the Dracorage- despite being under orders to keep the dragon at bay from their realm until her sanity returned, led by their leader, who "cared more for wealth and profit than for loyalty and responsibility".

Kurtulmak, on ascending and finding out- vowed revenge on the urd leader- but Asgorath raised him up to deityhood as well to protect him and the rest of the urds.

The tale is called First of the Dragonspawn- was an excerpt from a "Treatise Historical of the Dragon Tyrants" was recovered from the ruins of Myth Drannor (elven kingdom) and is on page 9 of A Grand History of the Realms.


So- in this version, while the kobold version is distorted somewhat- some of the same events take place- it's far more like the Races of the Dragon version- than any version that involves pranking.

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 05:00 PM
I think that the "A Grand History of the Realms version" is more likely than the others in that an evil dragon asked the Kobolds to do something evil. They didn't know that they were stealing gnome souls. Technically this is still an evil act because perspective has notthing to do with Good & Evil.

I started the recipies thread. Now you can tell us how you like Gnomes (and other races)cooked. Click here to enter Recipie Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9995167#post9995167).

hamishspence
2010-12-18, 05:08 PM
The dragon ruled an empire (called Darastriverthicha)

The kobold state Darastrixhurthi, was a vassal state of that empire.

So, the enslaving of the gnomes (after the initial intrusion) may not have been explicitly on the orders of the dragon empress.

Nor might the gems have been mined on her behalf (seeing as it was Kurtulmak's realm rather than the center of hers, that the gems were rescued from).

It's not the taking away of (unrecognized) gnome souls to their treasure hoards, that's the problem- one would hardly expect souls to take that form- and for acts to count as Evil, generally requires a little "They should have known better".

No- the evil act- is that they enslaved gnomes, and stole their gems from them, at all- it's not determined by what those gems turned out to be.


They didn't know that they were stealing gnome souls. Technically this is still an evil act because perspective has notthing to do with Good & Evil.

It is true that Evil is not always a matter of perspective- if a nation believes its not an evil deed to enslave others, by both BoED and Cityscape, they are wrong.

But sometimes, intent and context can matter as to whether an act counts as evil or not- some acts are not intrinsically evil- but can be made evil by the context in which they are done, or the intent, or both- according to BOVD.

Some acts are "always evil" (these appear in multiple splatbooks- BoVD, BoED, Fiendish Codex 2, Cityscape) and some are not.

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 05:13 PM
Yes I know enslaving things is evil. And stealing is evil. But they were just doing as told. But yes in this Alignment System they are evil. They did Evil things. Kurtulmak is evil. Revenge is evil. Lieing is evil. Pranks aren't evil. Killing many kobolds to kill the leader of the kobolds isn't evil even is you kill a few innocents.

hamishspence
2010-12-18, 05:23 PM
Stealing's a little trickier- there's quite a few nonevil, and even good, deities associated with theft in some way.

The "They were just doing as they were told" bit is harder to confirm- were they mining on Kurtulmak's orders, the dragon's orders, or both?

And was it Kurtulmak or the dragon that gave the order to "Enslave the gnomes, and take their stuff"- or even a decision made by the kobold in charge of the mining party that first broke through into the gnome caverns?

Either way, the Grand History of the Realms version, definitely makes Garl look much better- it wasn't a prank, it was a desperate rescue. Which makes the death of some innocent kobolds caused by collapsing the cavern in the escape, justifiable collateral damage- a bit like in warfare.

And it can even be compatible with the Faiths and Pantheons version, which says "Kurtulmak set a trap for Garl, and Garl escaped it, collapsing the cavern on Kurtulmak"- Garl could have been captured or nearly captured during the rescue mission.

Kurtulmak doesn't have to be a deity at the time, after all. Even before his ascension, he was named "The Horned Sorcerer"- and might have had a lot of power.

All that said- while it could be said to retcon the kobolds "we were innocent victims" story as something rather different-

the fact that kobolds are Usually Lawful Evil- would not ever justify a "Kill all kobolds on sight" policy.

It wasn't just one mine though- it was an entire nation of kobolds- some of whom survived the collapse only to be devoured by the dragon, that was still suffering from the Dracorage.

The tale said:

Made up of many kobold metropolises known as labyrinths, Darastrixhurthi was located in a mountain that crowned a body of water known as the Hidden Lake during the Age of Fallen Netheril.

Psyren
2010-12-18, 05:31 PM
Oh, I'm sure that there won't be any form of bias from you if someone would start bashing blue goblins.

You're kidding, right? I picked it because they're an easily recognizable psionic race, and the avatar was up for grabs. If a Maenad or Elan was available and easily distinguishable as stick-art, I'd have gone with that instead.

I do like Blues, but not to the point that I'll start crying about how woefully misunderstood Maglubiyet was. (Psionic races tend to be atheists anyway.)

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 05:35 PM
Your right about "Who gave the Command?" questions. It is never stated. Leaving it a mystery. Also stealing is an evil act. Is is one of the example Evil acts in the "Book of Vile Darkness" So its not that tricky to see it as evil.

I also must note that we are talking about Myth's and they can't be proven except by Going back in time (And witnessing it) or finding some artefact which proves one story and disproves all others.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 05:48 PM
But they were just doing as told.


By Godwin's Law, I now declare this thread ... OVER!

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 05:58 PM
What we are not relating Gnomes or Kobolds to ...........

hamishspence
2010-12-18, 06:01 PM
Your right about "Who gave the Command?" questions. It is never stated. Leaving it a mystery. Also stealing is an evil act. Is is one of the example Evil acts in the "Book of Vile Darkness" So its not that tricky to see it as evil.

BoVD also stresses that
"Revenge is not always evil- but the evil mindset ussually redefines it as: revenge at any cost"

and

"Lying is not always evil- but it is so easy to abuse that the creeds of many good deities forbid it altogether"

So- not all things listed in BoVD, will be "Always Evil"- since the BoVD states so itself- though some will- harming souls, murder, and so on.

Sometimes even things it states are "clearly evil" are retconned in other sources:

"Allowing a fiend to exist, let alone helping it in any way, is clearly evil"

retconned with the existence of nonevil fiends- and suggestions that it is possible to redeem them- and a fiend LG paladin on the WOTC site.

On stealing- it does say "Any child can tell you that stealing is wrong" - but how wrong, or whether it's "wrong enough to count as an evil act" might be a little context-dependent.

Characters like Robin Hood, or Mal Reynolds from Firefly, despite being thieves, are listed as Chaotic Good in Complete Scoundrel- though this might be because their other good traits more than outweigh the thieving.



I also must note that we are talking about Myth's and they can't be proven except by Going back in time (And witnessing it) or finding some artefact which proves one story and disproves all others.

It's not described as entirely myth in Grand History- the book is called "Treatise Historical of the Dragon Tyrants"- written by someone residing in the elven city of Myth Drannor.

That said- after thousands of years (events took place nearly 30,000 years before the fall of Myth Drannor) it will be exceedingly difficult to tell how much is history and how much myth.
In a world of magic "scrying back in time" may be possible- but I'm not sure if the novels ever suggest it is done.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 06:07 PM
What we are not relating Gnomes or Kobolds to ...........

Well, you are saying the Kobolds did it because they were only following orders ...

hamishspence
2010-12-18, 06:14 PM
But also, that it was evil by the alignment system:


"And stealing is evil. But they were just doing as told. But yes in this Alignment System they are evil. They did Evil things."

Which I agreed with- but more for the enslavement, than the theft-

and more for the unjustified theft itself, than for the fact that (unknowingly) it was souls they were stealing.

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 06:18 PM
Not all Kobolds have the Revenge at all cost morality. Most can hold a grudge for hundreds of years.

Lying itself isn't evil. But using it to try and commit evil acts is an evil act in itself.

Stealing is an evil act. A minor evil act. One that with many good acts can be relatively forgotten. If you ask me Robin Hood was Chaotic Neutral.

So you can commit evil things with good intentions and it count as good. But you can't commit good with evil intentions?

mootoall
2010-12-18, 06:22 PM
Not all Kobolds have the Revenge at all cost morality. Most can hold a grudge for hundreds of years.

Lying itself isn't evil. But using it to try and commit evil acts is an evil act in itself.

Stealing is an evil act. A minor evil act. One that with many good acts can be relatively forgotten. If you ask me Robin Hood was Chaotic Neutral.

So you can commit evil things with good intentions and it count as good. But you can't commit good with evil intentions?

Champions of Ruin says that action trumps intention.

hamishspence
2010-12-18, 06:24 PM
"Good with evil intentions"- is tricky.

BoED does suggest that normally Good deeds done with strong selfish intentions, count as Neutral- but that's a slightly different thing.

Acts with sufficiently evil intentions- kindnesses and sacrifices intended to make the target corruptible- may count as Neutral or even Evil- even if normally

"making personal sacrifices to help strangers"

is a Good act.


Champions of Ruin says that action trumps intention.

True. Heroes of Horror, written slightly later, allows for a limited amount of Good intention and Good goals- to override Evil acts enough to make the character "a flexible Neutral" or "solidly Neutral.

A spellcaster casting [Evil] spells solely to protect the innocent, and fight those that harm them- would be this kind of Neutral character. And the book explains that this is how the nongood Dread Necromancers, can sometimes be nonevil as well.

TechnoScrabble
2010-12-18, 06:29 PM
I want to findout why some people can stand to play as gnomes. So I created this thread to findout why & maybe change the opinnions of some Kobold haters.

Kobolds are seen as underpowered cannonfodder and gnomes are seen as little inventors. This thread is to change the common sterotypes of these to races. Here is a little example of my opinions:

Kobolds
This race is descended from the orginal true dragons. They fastest of the standard small humaniods. They are experts in trapmaking, mining, sorcery, alchemy, training Dire Weasels, & Making armour out of Giant beetles.

Gnomes
This race is basically a bad mix of dwarves, halfings, & weak fey. They invent things that are ten times more complicated then they should be, that then blow up in the face of the inventor. They are jealous little creatures that woreship a god that commited Atrocities killing thousands of innocents.

Yeah so thats my point of view.

Biased much?
And what atrocities did the god of pranks commit, eh?

mootoall
2010-12-18, 06:29 PM
And yet, in all of that, enslaving and stealing, which has no Good application in this scenario, is an explicitly Evil act.

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 06:30 PM
Yes Actions go over initions. That is why we have so many problems with Alignment.

Yes I am biased. Thats why it is hard to change my mind about gnomes.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 06:31 PM
Yes Actions go over initions. That is why we have so many problems with Alignment.

No, that makes alignment simple. Good is good. Evil is evil. End of story.

hamishspence
2010-12-18, 06:38 PM
Grey areas can be fun- but it can also help, to have a few acts which

"no amount of justifying reasons- can make this a nonevil act"

Lying, and stealing, should probably not be among these. Torture, murder, actively harming souls, probably should.

"For pleasure" usually tends to be an aggravating factor,
"For the needs/safety of the innocent" tends to be a mitigating factor.

So a Good character who steals "for the needs of the innocent" in an area under a tyrannical regime where many innocents suffer- may not count as doing Evil deeds at all- they may be a Chaotic Good paladin of freedom, who would Fall if they ever did an evil act.

Conversely, a character who steals solely because they get pleasure in knowing that other people suffer as a result- would definitely be committing evil acts.

Even with a set of "always evil acts", you can still allow plenty of acts to fall outside that set, and have lots of "grey area".

Burner28
2010-12-18, 06:49 PM
Stealing for profit also could qualify as always evil.

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 06:53 PM
Yes with these gray areas the alignment system is ruined. If it is based off actions then thier are no gray areas.

hamishspence
2010-12-18, 06:55 PM
Yup- anything that "harms others" generally needs a good reason to explain why it is not evil.

"To save their lives" is the classic Good reason.

"For profit" ranks barely above "for pleasure" as an aggravating factor.

You could have a character who does Good deeds "for profit" or "for pleasure" and their deeds not (quite) count as Neutral instead, but it would be a very unusual Good character.

Maybe a person who believes that doing things for self-interested reasons like profit, or enjoyment- is the best reason to do them.

Yet- their sheer enjoyment out of making others happy and succouring their needs (or their desire to become rich and successful by doing so)-

might not be a "bad thing" so to speak- and they could still qualify as Good alignment- if by a narrow margin.


Yes with these gray areas the alignment system is ruined. If it is based off actions then thier are no gray areas.

BoVD explicitly states that no matter how "black and white" your game, there will always be grey areas.

You can have a narrow zone of (always evil) a very narrow zone of (always good)

(since generally it's easier for a nice deed to be downgraded from Good, than for a nasty deed to not count as evil)

and a nice wide area where intent, context, etc matter a lot.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 06:57 PM
Yes with these gray areas the alignment system is ruined. If it is based off actions then thier are no gray areas.

No, the alignment system works in this scenario. Let's go with the "enslaving gnomes then taking their gems."

Done for profit? Check.

No justification other than "for the evulz?" Check.

Harms others? Check.

Stealing? Check.

I don't see how you can justify it as a good, or even neutral act ...

hamishspence
2010-12-18, 07:00 PM
Yup- alignment system and "grey areas" are not incompatible.

Burner28
2010-12-18, 07:01 PM
BoVD explicitly states that no matter how "black and white" your game, there will always be grey areas.

You can have a narrow zone of (always evil) a very narrow zone of (always good)

(since generally it's easier for a nice deed to be downgraded from Good, than for a nasty deed to not count as evil)

and a nice wide area where intent, context, etc matter a lot.

Hmm.. Ebberon is stated to have moral ambiguity with a Lawful Evil king who wants world peace and a Neutral Good queen who believes in a honorable war, if I remember correctly

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 07:02 PM
Yes I realize that Kobolds are "Usually" Lawful Evil. I realize what they did in that "Myth" was evil. In other myths they didn't do anything wrong (At all). I also never said that enslaving and stealing from the gnomes was a gray area.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 07:11 PM
Yes I realize that Kobolds are "Usually" Lawful Evil. I realize what they did in that "Myth" was evil. In other myths they didn't do anything wrong (At all). I also never said that enslaving and stealing from the gnomes was a gray area.

:smallsigh: What myths show kobolds as actually good? I beg of you, find me one. Especially one that uses the "little pseudo-lizard men" permutation of the kobold.

What we can look at in game terms, if we want to*, is a strong tendency for gnomes to be excellent illusionists, who can then use Shadow Conjuration/Evocation to kick some ass. Kobolds? They get favored class: sorcerer. Less versatile, and no legitimate reason to actually be a sorcerer except for multiclassing penalties. Seriously. Kobolds are worse than gnomes.




*by the way, I can't believe you've effectively said "Hey, let's keep it to core" for both ... I mean seriously, you're giving up the only good kobolds ...

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 07:19 PM
Firstly by core I ment: PHB (For Gnomes) & Races Of THe Dragon (For Kobolds). How is that hampering the kobolds chances of winning?

Second the Myth in races of the Dragon. In it thier is no mention of kobolds doing anything evil. No they were just succesful at minning and getting rich. Then jealous Garl destroyied the mine of Kurtulmak. Io then gave Kurtulmak a choice Fixing his mine or becoming a god and helping the kobolds.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 07:30 PM
Firstly by core I ment: PHB (For Gnomes) & Races Of THe Dragon (For Kobolds). How is that hampering the kobolds chances of winning?

Second the Myth in races of the Dragon. In it thier is no mention of kobolds doing anything evil. No they were just succesful at minning and getting rich. Then jealous Garl destroyied the mine of Kurtulmak. Io then gave Kurtulmak a choice Fixing his mine or becoming a god and helping the kobolds.

Mmkay, firstly, if you're giving Kobolds RotD then you've got to give Gnomes their splatbooks too. After all, Kobolds are in PHB too.

Secondly, let me get this straight. You're saying that, because they're good at mining and getting rich (hey, gnomes and dwarves both do that!) they're better than gnomes?

Thirdly, looking over that myth (which, as you said, is a myth, and should be considered equally as much as all the others- that is to say, not at all,) you have Kurtulmak (whose holy symbol is ... what's that? A skull with a stake through it? Morbid ...) it seems very ... biased. As should be expected from a book supporting the kobolds a lot. However, Kurtulmak chose personal power over the rebuilding of one of the greatest kobold acheivements. Seriously. Instead of reversing Glittergold's action, he decided to doom his entire race to being vengeful towards to kobolds. That's ... pretty Evil.

Milo v3
2010-12-18, 07:38 PM
Firstly Kobolds aren't in the Players Handbook. The races in it are: Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Halfings.

Secondly in that myth he choose to ensure that the Atrocity would never again happen.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 07:43 PM
Firstly Kobolds aren't in the Players Handbook. The races in it are: Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Halfings.

Secondly in that myth he choose to ensure that the Atrocity would never again happen.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm
Hey, look at that! It's the SRD! It has Kobolds in it! If you want the "Races of" for gnomes, you're looking at Races of Stone, which, you guessed it, has the Whisper Gnome in it.

Secondly, it says that ... nowhere. It says it would never be overlooked again, yes, but that simply reinforces the "revenge" aspect. Do you really think that if Io had given him the power to rebuild it he would've just let it fall again? No. He had decided to champion the kobolds.

Also, can't help but notice, but with the strength rebuild the mine (by himself, apparently,) he probably would have achieved divinity anyway. So really, Kurtulmak is being shortsighted and revenge driven, and wasn't really looking after the good of the kobold race.

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-18, 09:00 PM
Not all Kobolds have the Revenge at all cost morality. Most can hold a grudge for hundreds of years.

Lying itself isn't evil. But using it to try and commit evil acts is an evil act in itself.

Stealing is an evil act. A minor evil act. One that with many good acts can be relatively forgotten. If you ask me Robin Hood was Chaotic Neutral.

So you can commit evil things with good intentions and it count as good. But you can't commit good with evil intentions?

It honestly depends on who you ask. The philosopher Kant would say neither of those two things qualify as a good act, and that you need both pure intention and rational acting to qualify as good.

Is it evil to live life blindly? I mean, does a good intention justify an evil act? To an extent, perhaps. But to those you did damage to, it really doesn't matter how pure your intentions were. I'd say at most that good intentions+evil results=neutral act. Not evil, perhaps, because you didn't mean to, but certainly not good either. And why you were doing it matters too. If you were too stubborn to realize you were committing evil acts, well, many people consider pride to be a sin as well.

Committing good with evil intentions is generally considered evil if only because it can't last forever. Sure, evil, greedy people might find it in there best interests to do good things, but if they look out for only themselves then it's only a matter of time before their best interests involve more dastardly deeds.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 09:01 PM
It honestly depends on who you ask. The philosopher Kant would say neither of those two things qualify as a good act, and that you need both pure intention and rational acting to qualify as good.

Is it evil to live life blindly? I mean, does a good intention justify an evil act? To an extent, perhaps. But to those you did damage to, it really doesn't matter how pure your intentions were. I'd say at most that good intentions+evil results=neutral act. Not evil, perhaps, because you didn't mean to, but certainly not good either. And why you were doing it matters too. If you were too stubborn to realize you were committing evil acts, well, many people consider pride to be a sin as well.

Committing good with evil intentions is generally considered evil if only because it can't last forever. Sure, evil, greedy people might find it in there best interests to do good things, but if they look out for only themselves then it's only a matter of time before their best interests involve more dastardly deeds.

Champions of Ruin, again, supports the "action over intention" view, and that's where I get my alignment debate points.

AtlanteanTroll
2010-12-18, 09:15 PM
Firstly Kobolds aren't in the Players Handbook. The races in it are: Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Halfings.

Hey look, that means in a 'clean' campaign, you can't play one! Oh no! What ould that mean?

That they weren't intended to be a race?

http://blog.miridiatech.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/inconceivable-1.jpg

mootoall
2010-12-18, 09:18 PM
Hey look, that means in a 'clean' campaign, you can't play one! Oh no! What ould that mean?

That they weren't intended to be a race?

http://blog.miridiatech.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/inconceivable-1.jpg

Aaactually, as I pointed out, they're

A) In the SRD

and

B) Have the "Kobolds as characters" section.

So yeah, they can easily be played as a character (though they should have a negative LA if anything ...). All I wanted to point out was that, if you're goint to use RotD for kobolds then you should be allowed to use RoS for gnomes.

AtlanteanTroll
2010-12-18, 09:23 PM
Aaactually, as I pointed out, they're

A) In the SRD

and

B) Have the "Kobolds as characters" section.

So yeah, they can easily be played as a character (though they should have a negative LA if anything ...). All I wanted to point out was that, if you're goint to use RotD for kobolds then you should be allowed to use RoS for gnomes.

Yes, but they aren't in the PBH. Which still means what I said is... legit.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 09:25 PM
Yes, but they aren't in the PBH. Which still means what I said is... legit.

Well yeah, but it's still a core book.

I agree they're really not meant to be played, at least until, not even RotD, but the RotD web enhancement.

Milo v3
2010-12-19, 02:33 AM
They as AtlanteanTroll said weren't orginally meant to be a player race. On the other hand Gnomes where. So the MM stats weren't designed for players in mind. They just made it possible to do so. Race Of The dragon saw that Kobolds were underpowered and thus gave them a few extra features.

I don't own ROS. What extra features does the book give gnomes?

Also so what if Whisper Gnomes are in ROS. We aren't using subraces. If we were I could talk about the bonuses of flying kobolds.

Also did you say SRD was a core rule book?

hamishspence
2010-12-19, 04:21 AM
SRD is not a rulebook- it's an online compilation of all the "free" WOTC content that other companies were allowed to utilize in making 3rd party sources. It's the core 3 rulebooks, + content from Expanded Psionics Handbook, Deities & Demigods, Epic Handbook, and Unearthed Arcana.

A few things considered "product identity" (like mind flayers) are not in the SRD.

On alignment:

Hmm.. Ebberon is stated to have moral ambiguity with a Lawful Evil king who wants world peace and a Neutral Good queen who believes in a honorable war, if I remember correctly

It does- though in later books the LE king was stressed to be a bit of a ruthless tyrant, and the NG queen was stressed to want to "make the world a better place".

The campaign book goes out of its way to say that "Evil" does not mean "deserves to be killed"- some evil characters might have to be dealt with using violence- but not all.


Champions of Ruin is a good source- but whether evil acts override Good intentions to make the character Evil aligned, may depend on how evil the acts are. There are many PRCs with "any nongood" that are built around committing evil acts (consorting with fiends, casting Evil spells, etc)

but- with Heroes of Horror- those characters can (if they keep their evil acts to a minimum, focusing on helping others- maintain a Neutral alignment.

Champions of Ruin also says that "Even good characters can be driven to evil acts from time to time- it is the repeated use of them that marks the evil character- with evil acts often being their first resort rather than last resort.

So it might work like this:

Good character- commits Evil acts only in times of great desperation- only in order to protect people- and always tries to atone in some way afterward.

Heroes of Horror style Neutral character- commits minor Evil acts regularly- but as a rule focuses on helping and protecting others.

Champions of Ruin style Evil character- can range from:
Commits major evil acts regularly- but only for what they perceive as a good cause- and may have traits like compassion and altruism- which don't move them out of Evil alignment:
to:
Commits major evil acts for their own self-gratification (profit, or pleasure) and generally lacks compassion.

Savage Species mentions that some Evil characters treat their "in-group" with kindness and compassion, and people not in their "in-group" (or their enemies) with cruelty and malice.

So an Evil character can behave in an Evil way to their enemies, a Good way to their friends, family, spouse, or even whole nation- and still be Evil.

Serpentine
2010-12-19, 05:07 AM
Firstly by core I ment: PHB (For Gnomes) & Races Of THe Dragon (For Kobolds).Races of the Dragon isn't core. The Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual are core. Kobolds are in the Monster Manual. If you want to "stick to core", those are what, and all, you can use. If the kobolds get Races of the Dragon, then gnomes get Races of Stone.

Bayar
2010-12-19, 05:14 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm
Hey, look at that! It's the SRD! It has Kobolds in it! If you want the "Races of" for gnomes, you're looking at Races of Stone, which, you guessed it, has the Whisper Gnome in it.

Secondly, it says that ... nowhere. It says it would never be overlooked again, yes, but that simply reinforces the "revenge" aspect. Do you really think that if Io had given him the power to rebuild it he would've just let it fall again? No. He had decided to champion the kobolds.

Also, can't help but notice, but with the strength rebuild the mine (by himself, apparently,) he probably would have achieved divinity anyway. So really, Kurtulmak is being shortsighted and revenge driven, and wasn't really looking after the good of the kobold race.

I fail to see how letting his kin stay dead and him selfishly keeping a mine for his own gain and ascending solely by mining forever would cound as less evil than getting even with the gnomes.

Milo v3
2010-12-19, 05:21 AM
The reason is that weren't designed to truely be proper race choises until Races Of the Dragon. As such they weren't balanced with gnomes. With races of the Dragon they became balanced to Core Gnomes. Thats why I said to use races of the dragon for kobold. Not for the kobold feats or spells but so Kobolds themselves are balanced.
Also I'm unsure of the edits made to Standard Gnomes in "Races Of Stone".

Could use please tell me them so that I know they are balanced. But if thier where no changes to Gnome Racial Features then we use PHB for gnomes.

mootoall
2010-12-19, 11:21 AM
They as AtlanteanTroll said weren't orginally meant to be a player race. On the other hand Gnomes where. So the MM stats weren't designed for players in mind. They just made it possible to do so. Race Of The dragon saw that Kobolds were underpowered and thus gave them a few extra features.

I don't own ROS. What extra features does the book give gnomes?

Also so what if Whisper Gnomes are in ROS. We aren't using subraces. If we were I could talk about the bonuses of flying kobolds.

Also did you say SRD was a core rule book?

Look, they were not intended to be player races until they came out with the bite/claw/claw kobolds (RotD web enhancement), or the jungle or desert kobolds. RotD doesn't remove the terrible, terrible things about kobolds (namely the -4 total stat mod straight off the bat), and doesn't really give them anything good except for what leads to incredicheese.

As Hamishspence said, the SRD is a compilation of the three core books. So yes, I'm counting it as a "core rule book" for the sake of simplicity and accessibility.


The reason is that weren't designed to truely be proper race choises until Races Of the Dragon. As such they weren't balanced with gnomes. With races of the Dragon they became balanced to Core Gnomes. Thats why I said to use races of the dragon for kobold. Not for the kobold feats or spells but so Kobolds themselves are balanced.
Also I'm unsure of the edits made to Standard Gnomes in "Races Of Stone".

Could use please tell me them so that I know they are balanced. But if thier where no changes to Gnome Racial Features then we use PHB for gnomes.

Again, if you want to use any of the good features for kobolds from RotD, of which there are Dragonwrought or the jungle or desert kobold varients (and again, the claw/claw/bite from the web enhancement), then you're stuck with, you guessed it, the same stuff as the MM kobolds, with more fluff. So RotD doesn't do anything to make them any better as PCs.


I fail to see how letting his kin stay dead and him selfishly keeping a mine for his own gain and ascending solely by mining forever would cound as less evil than getting even with the gnomes.

I see nowhere in the legend where he's told that his people would be ressurected. In fact, it specifically says that the "loss of Darastrixhurthi would remain," and says nothing about kobolds being brought back to life, strongly suggesting that the entire tragedy would stay the same. As it is, he's actually harming his race by refusing to rebuild their greatest accomplishment, and instead is dooming his race to a life of revenge and, you guessed it, Evil.




Edit: Oh, and to answer your question, Milov3, there were no changes done to basic gnomes in Races of Stone. Just like there were no changes done to basic kobolds in RotD.

Bayar
2010-12-19, 12:25 PM
Umm..."even buried under rubble, Kurtulmak wouldn't give up on his people until he would find the strenght to dig all of them out" it says (not-copy pasted out of RotD of course). Yes, it does not say that he ressurected them, you are right. Make of that what you will. In my heart, Kurtulmak is the savior of his race. And I will gladly kill any gnome in his name (except those in Eberron since gnomes are awesome there, and they hold no grudge towards kobolds or vice-versa).

mootoall
2010-12-19, 12:29 PM
Umm..."even buried under rubble, Kurtulmak wouldn't give up on his people until he would find the strenght to dig all of them out" it says (not-copy pasted out of RotD of course). Yes, it does not say that he ressurected them, you are right. Make of that what you will. In my heart, Kurtulmak is the savior of his race. And I will gladly kill any gnome in his name (except those in Eberron since gnomes are awesome there, and they hold no grudge towards kobolds or vice-versa).

But ... no. He's not the savior of his race. The savior of his race would've rebuilt the thing that would have made them"fit to emerge as one of the dominant races in creation." Seriously. How does becoming a god, not rebuilding the mine, and saying "alright, instead of fixing our mistake we're gonna just have some sort of racial emnity with the gnomes" do anything to advance their race?

Bayar
2010-12-19, 12:38 PM
But ... no. He's not the savior of his race. The savior of his race would've rebuilt the thing that would have made them"fit to emerge as one of the dominant races in creation." Seriously. How does becoming a god, not rebuilding the mine, and saying "alright, instead of fixing our mistake we're gonna just have some sort of racial emnity with the gnomes" do anything to advance their race?

Ok, suppose that Kurtulmak would accept to rebuild the mine. The genocide would be forgotten. What would kobolds do now if it would happen again ? I seriously doubt that Io would come give a hand again if some other random jackass god would come and collapse the mine over the kobolds again.

mootoall
2010-12-19, 12:44 PM
Ok, suppose that Kurtulmak would accept to rebuild the mine. The genocide would be forgotten. What would kobolds do now if it would happen again ? I seriously doubt that Io would come give a hand again if some other random jackass god would come and collapse the mine over the kobolds again.

Again, who's to say that Kurtulmak wouldn't have ascended anyway? It says Io was looking for a god to champion the kobolds. Either Io would have become that god, or Kurtulmak would have ascended anyway, and become the god of the Kobolds through his own merits. As it is, the kobolds have absolutely no remarkable civilization, as they rely entirely on true dragons for any significant accomplishment.

absolmorph
2010-12-19, 04:14 PM
Ok, suppose that Kurtulmak would accept to rebuild the mine. The genocide would be forgotten. What would kobolds do now if it would happen again ? I seriously doubt that Io would come give a hand again if some other random jackass god would come and collapse the mine over the kobolds again.
They have multiple mines so losing one is a lesser loss.

mootoall
2010-12-19, 04:48 PM
They have multiple mines so losing one is a lesser loss.

Ah, but this mine was kinda ... big.

MeeposFire
2010-12-19, 05:03 PM
Again, who's to say that Kurtulmak wouldn't have ascended anyway? It says Io was looking for a god to champion the kobolds. Either Io would have become that god, or Kurtulmak would have ascended anyway, and become the god of the Kobolds through his own merits. As it is, the kobolds have absolutely no remarkable civilization, as they rely entirely on true dragons for any significant accomplishment.

Ah the gnomish elitism. Since kobolds have a lesser civilization we obviously do not deserve happiness! Historians never write about us as you bigger races just do not care to know of the kobold. Of course we never let you close enough to find out...woops.

mootoall
2010-12-19, 05:36 PM
Ah the gnomish elitism. Since kobolds have a lesser civilization we obviously do not deserve happiness! Historians never write about us as you bigger races just do not care to know of the kobold. Of course we never let you close enough to find out...woops.

Lolwut? No ... I'm pointing out the fact that Kurtukmak deliberately decided to allow their only real accomplishment to stay broken ... in favor of futile revenge.

MeeposFire
2010-12-19, 06:05 PM
Ah the gnomish elitism. Since kobolds have a lesser civilization we obviously do not deserve happiness! Historians never write about us as you bigger races just do not care to know of the kobold. Of course we never let you close enough to find out...woops.

Just to be clear...this was intended as a joking rant from a kobolds perspective:smallwink:.

Bayar
2010-12-19, 06:20 PM
They have multiple mines so losing one is a lesser loss.

A mine which basically said that it could be mined for eternity without ever running out of precious metals and gems. yeah, a lesser loss indeed :annoyed:

absolmorph
2010-12-19, 06:23 PM
A mine which basically said that it could be mined for eternity without ever running out of precious metals and gems. yeah, a lesser loss indeed :annoyed:
Because, obviously, you can't have multiple mines around the same infinite source.
That would just be ridiculous! What if it runs out?!

My point was that they could rebuild that mine and have other mines in various places so they can lose one and not be nearly extinct.

Psyren
2010-12-19, 06:31 PM
Stealing is an evil act. A minor evil act. One that with many good acts can be relatively forgotten. If you ask me Robin Hood was Chaotic Neutral.


You can't have it both ways. Either you take WotC's sources as gospel, in which case stealing is evil but Robin Hood is canonically CG, or you accept that context is important, in which case stealing is not so bad.



So you can commit evil things with good intentions and it count as good. But you can't commit good with evil intentions?

It's possible to do good with evil intentions - e.g. Gollum, who saved the world just as Frodo was about to doom it.

mootoall
2010-12-19, 06:32 PM
Just to be clear...this was intended as a joking rant from a kobolds perspective:smallwink:.

Heh, I know. I just like debunking it.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-12-19, 06:45 PM
Kurtulmak story, just doesn't jive, it only makes sense as propaganda, a deliberate lie to control his people. Or an invention by kobolds to justify there hatred of gnomes.

I've just written a new version of the story,

Garl curious as to Kurtulmak great work went to investigate, and possibly grease a few stair cases. While admiring the central chamber. Kurtulmak came upon him and in his paranoia believed him a spy. He charged at the gnomish deity with his pick-axe and swung a mighty blow. Garl simply waved goodbye and teleported away at the last second. Kurtulmak axe smashed into a central support pillar, so mighty was this blow it set off a chain reaction that destroyed the mine.

Garl offered no explanation because he had done nothing, it was Kurtulmak's own paranoia and rage that destroyed the mine. The other gods did nothing for the same reason. Only Io the Ninefold dragon took pity on Kurtulmak, he believed that Kurtulmak would learn from his mistake and make a fine champion for his people.
Kurtulmak of course could never blame himself, so he blamed Garl.

Made up by me, but makes way more sense then the pile of dragon dung Kurtulmak's telling.

JaronK
2010-12-19, 07:15 PM
No way. Kurt knew how to make mines. That's his thing. There's no way a single central support being destroyed could take out the whole thing... and certainly not to a blow from a single pickax. Redundancy is key in such a situation and Kurt would know that!

Clearly, Garl was just jealous because kobolds are dragons and Garl is not a dragon. That makes far more sense.

Go team dragon!

JaronK

Psyren
2010-12-19, 07:18 PM
Go team dragon!

JaronK

Garl, jealous of kobolds? And Kurt isn't even Dragonwrought. I call shenanigans.

The "new story" seems unlikely to me as well, however.

MeeposFire
2010-12-19, 07:25 PM
Its too bad Kobolds are too busy mining and serving dragons to hire a good PR person like gnomes. If we did things would be different. I bet th kobold PR guy was a gnome, tricksy are the gnomes.

Thiyr
2010-12-19, 07:39 PM
New point as to why kobolds are overrated:

They stole the goblins thunder. Goblins are the superior cannon-fodder underdog! Constantly put down for doing just what the phb races do. Kobolds, those irritating spotlight stealing little lizards, took our attention away from the the true awesome underdogs. Because a goblin is a terrible thing to waste. (http://www.goblindefensefund.org/)

As for why gnomes are awesome? I find they fulfill an interesting and entertaining role, they provide a means to play a small person without forcing me to be a halfling, and amuse me. I don't find them to be particularly pointless compared to other races (I don't see the whole techy-thing fitting with dwarves if you're moving up the fantasy tech-tree, and while illusions are their thing, standard gnomes don't feel rogue-y to me. They're the hardy trickster as opposed to the sneaky scoundrel.), and their stereotypes don't grate on my nerves, as I don't feel that they get shoved down my throat quite so much as that race of infallible, perfect trapsmith, dragon-descended, inherently magically superior, expert miner, and don't forget about how we have perfect group tactics that can scare even a fifteenth level party lizards.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind kobolds if their particularly vocal fans would give them a -rest-. But as they stand, I find them highly annoying, and they best serve as expendable dupes for young adventurers.


As far as PR people...I'm going to have to reference the above fans. Kobolds problems are their having too many PR people, and having them be far too vocal. Gnomes PR support, if they even have any, are a lot more efficient.

Milo v3
2010-12-19, 07:39 PM
Firstly Kurtulmaks story is not a Pile Of Dung! How dare you! It is more believable then many Real world myths yet many people sit believe in them.

Secondly how would he revive the dead kobolds in his mine? With Arcane magic? I think not. At that time thier was no deity for kobolds.

And as my assossiates have said :"A mine of infinite resources".
[Sarcasm]Now why would anyone be jealous of that?[Sarcasm/]

mootoall
2010-12-19, 07:46 PM
Firstly Kurtulmaks story is not a Pile Of Dung! How dare you! It is more believable then many Real world myths yet many people sit believe in them.

Secondly how would he revive the dead kobolds in his mine? With Arcane magic? I think not. At that time thier was no deity for kobolds.

And as my assossiates have said :"A mine of infinite resources".
[Sarcasm]Now why would anyone be jealous of that?[Sarcasm/]

But it ... was a pile of dung. Just like all the other myths. It was probably Garl stepping on one of Kurtulmak's sandcastles and him throwing a temple tantrum before they all decided to throw it out of proportion.

All gods have the ability to resurrect someone. They kinda have ... divine power. If Io wanted to, or even if Kurtulmak wanted to after his ascention, he could have. But he didn't.

Thirdly, again, I never see "infinite resources" in the myth ... only that it was a magnificent mine.

Thiyr
2010-12-19, 07:47 PM
As I am having trouble finding the reference in this thread, where is this mine of infinite resources? What were these resources? Were they gemstones?

If so, my train of logic is fairly obvious. Jealousy isn't the proper word to use in that situation. Otherwise, where were these infinite resources coming from? And if someone was envious of said resources, why wouldn't they -steal- them instead of burying them where the race of quick-breeding miners could just -mine it again-?

MeeposFire
2010-12-19, 07:51 PM
New point as to why kobolds are overrated:

They stole the goblins thunder. Goblins are the superior cannon-fodder underdog! Constantly put down for doing just what the phb races do. Kobolds, those irritating spotlight stealing little lizards, took our attention away from the the true awesome underdogs. Because a goblin is a terrible thing to waste. (http://www.goblindefensefund.org/)

As for why gnomes are awesome? I find they fulfill an interesting and entertaining role, they provide a means to play a small person without forcing me to be a halfling, and amuse me. I don't find them to be particularly pointless compared to other races (I don't see the whole techy-thing fitting with dwarves if you're moving up the fantasy tech-tree, and while illusions are their thing, standard gnomes don't feel rogue-y to me. They're the hardy trickster as opposed to the sneaky scoundrel.), and their stereotypes don't grate on my nerves, as I don't feel that they get shoved down my throat quite so much as that race of infallible, perfect trapsmith, dragon-descended, inherently magically superior, expert miner, and don't forget about how we have perfect group tactics that can scare even a fifteenth level party lizards.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind kobolds if their particularly vocal fans would give them a -rest-. But as they stand, I find them highly annoying, and they best serve as expendable dupes for young adventurers.


As far as PR people...I'm going to have to reference the above fans. Kobolds problems are their having too many PR people, and having them be far too vocal. Gnomes PR support, if they even have any, are a lot more efficient.

Goblins are a terrible thing to waste...which is why adventurers take their time to kill every last one and they can too since they are nowhere near as frightening.

Honestly I like goblins too. They not so bad. Sure it is not easy to be green but they have some talent. If only kobolds were not so scared of being betrayed by everything then we could join forces!

Also halflings are much cooler than gnomes. They are very friendly. At least when they cheat us it brings a smile to the face.

absolmorph
2010-12-19, 08:16 PM
As I am having trouble finding the reference in this thread, where is this mine of infinite resources? What were these resources? Were they gemstones?

If so, my train of logic is fairly obvious. Jealousy isn't the proper word to use in that situation. Otherwise, where were these infinite resources coming from? And if someone was envious of said resources, why wouldn't they -steal- them instead of burying them where the race of quick-breeding miners could just -mine it again-?
Especially with a god to help them.

Thiyr
2010-12-19, 08:16 PM
Goblins are a terrible thing to waste...which is why adventurers take their time to kill every last one and they can too since they are nowhere near as frightening.

Honestly I like goblins too. They not so bad. Sure it is not easy to be green but they have some talent. If only kobolds were not so scared of being betrayed by everything then we could join forces!

Also halflings are much cooler than gnomes. They are very friendly. At least when they cheat us it brings a smile to the face.

Honestly, though, I find the way gnomes do it to be better. The halfling will sneak behind your back to do what it wants and you're never gonna know. The gnome trick you, tell you about it, and you'll both have a good laugh about it afterward.

And I wouldn't really say kobolds are "scared of being betrayed". RotD puts it more into them just hating other races and being secretive. "They are perfectly happy being overlooked by others, having disdain for other races and preferring to conduct their activities in secret". Less the kid that's been picked on and is afraid to talk to people, more the kid that just hates people in general and would rather nobody know of him/her.

mootoall
2010-12-19, 08:18 PM
As I am having trouble finding the reference in this thread, where is this mine of infinite resources? What were these resources? Were they gemstones?

If so, my train of logic is fairly obvious. Jealousy isn't the proper word to use in that situation. Otherwise, where were these infinite resources coming from? And if someone was envious of said resources, why wouldn't they -steal- them instead of burying them where the race of quick-breeding miners could just -mine it again-?

The myth being quoted is in RotD under "religion".

Milo v3
2010-12-19, 08:26 PM
For the last time can we get off of myths. As Mootoball said the Myths are under "RELIGION". And Religion can be amazingly stupid and make no sense at all yet supposedly it happened. So can we get off the Myths.

MeeposFire
2010-12-19, 08:28 PM
Honestly, though, I find the way gnomes do it to be better. The halfling will sneak behind your back to do what it wants and you're never gonna know. The gnome trick you, tell you about it, and you'll both have a good laugh about it afterward.

And I wouldn't really say kobolds are "scared of being betrayed". RotD puts it more into them just hating other races and being secretive. "They are perfectly happy being overlooked by others, having disdain for other races and preferring to conduct their activities in secret". Less the kid that's been picked on and is afraid to talk to people, more the kid that just hates people in general and would rather nobody know of him/her.

Gross exaggerations says I! Why do you think we hate other races? We afraid of hurt. We may not say it, but we scared of being harmed. We like being overlooked since it means they not harming us.

Halflings are funny. Halfling can do it all ways. Gnomes boring. Smell funny too. Though I miss older halflings. They plumper and fed us more, back when they thought Meepo was family dog. Hairy feet were better for warmth too.

Milo v3
2010-12-19, 08:37 PM
Meeposfire I disagree. We kobolds are noble and we are not afriad of hurt. No we are smart. We let ourselves get overlooked so the adventures get full of pride and not think things through correctly then they fall into traps and they die.

Also our merchants hide in plain sight we use magic to make ourselves appear to be halfling or human merchants. We know that the rest of the world hates us (note: they probably hate us because we are paranoid and think they are going to try and kill us).

We surive because we see things others don't. Like where to place the best traps. We see how the other races schem against us.

So yes we hide ourselves but only so you don't bother us and we can continue our work.

Thiyr
2010-12-19, 08:40 PM
Gross exaggerations says I! Why do you think we hate other races? We afraid of hurt. We may not say it, but we scared of being harmed. We like being overlooked since it means they not harming us.

Halflings are funny. Halfling can do it all ways. Gnomes boring. Smell funny too. Though I miss older halflings. They plumper and fed us more, back when they thought Meepo was family dog. Hairy feet were better for warmth too.

But...that came out of RotD...under psychology...it seems more like general misanthropy than a justified fear... Also, gnomes smell less funny than kobolds do, and are much more amusing than halflings. Halflings wouldn't know a good joke if it came up and killed them! Far too busy filling their stomachs and pockets to appreciate the finer things in life!

EDIT: And I'd venture that kobolds survive because they breed faster, to replace those lost to other races. And...Others hate them because...others hate them? That doesn't really work. And if you're noble, why would you hide yourself as a different race at all? wouldn't that imply that being a kobold isn't a positive thing in that situation? And how would they disguise themselves as either other race, they'd be found out right quickly!

MeeposFire
2010-12-19, 08:44 PM
Ever smelled lizards. They smell less than stinky mammals. Filling stomachs and finer things (like mining, glorious mining) are the best. Why waste time in frivo-frivo-frivol-silly pursuits like joking when a mine needs clearing. You silly bulbasoars need to know what matters in life.

mootoall
2010-12-19, 08:45 PM
For the last time can we get off of myths. As Mootoball said the Myths are under "RELIGION". And Religion can be amazingly stupid and make no sense at all yet supposedly it happened. So can we get off the Myths.

Okay, we're off the Myths. What do kobolds have going for them again?

Thiyr
2010-12-19, 08:46 PM
Bulbasaur forgives you of your ignorance of the finer things in life...for now. Needless to say, all work and no play makes one a dull person! Art, the pursuit of ideals, those are the fine things in life. That is what being a gnome truly is about!

Milo v3
2010-12-19, 08:53 PM
Art, the pursuit of ideals, those are the fine things in life. That is what being a gnome truly is about!
Yes gnomes are very inefficent I agree to that. Kobolds are much more efficent. Gnomes would never get anything done. I'm amazed that in 3.0 edition they made its Favoured Class: Wizard (illusionist).

Illusionist I get, but wizard. That goes against all the carefree and inefficentness of the gnomes.

MeeposFire
2010-12-19, 09:01 PM
Okay, we're off the Myths. What do kobolds have going for them again?

Extreme cuteness? You know you must love the Meepo!

CUTENESS SPOILER http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/outsider_20100628_6.jpghttp://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/outsider_20100628_5.jpg

absolmorph
2010-12-19, 09:34 PM
Okay, we're off the Myths. What do kobolds have going for them again?
Agreed. They're weak and can't take a hit well. Gnomes are weak, but not as weak, and can take a hit well.

Psyren
2010-12-19, 09:47 PM
Extreme cuteness? You know you must love the Meepo!

CUTENESS SPOILER http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/outsider_20100628_6.jpghttp://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/outsider_20100628_5.jpg

That's... disturbing...

MeeposFire
2010-12-19, 09:52 PM
That's... disturbing...

I know-in a cute way! Yip, yip!

Milo v3
2010-12-19, 09:56 PM
I think that image is desturbing not because it looks desturbing. But because my computer blocked it.

Also you say kobolds can't take a hit. Tell that to the +1 Ac and the Kobold Barbarians.

MeeposFire
2010-12-19, 10:32 PM
I think that image is desturbing not because it looks desturbing. But because my computer blocked it.

Also you say kobolds can't take a hit. Tell that to the +1 Ac and the Kobold Barbarians.

See even computers are against the kobolds. Poor poor Meepo.

Thiyr
2010-12-19, 11:13 PM
Yes gnomes are very inefficent I agree to that. Kobolds are much more efficent. Gnomes would never get anything done. I'm amazed that in 3.0 edition they made its Favoured Class: Wizard (illusionist).

Illusionist I get, but wizard. That goes against all the carefree and inefficentness of the gnomes.

Except that they could dedicate themselves to discovering and achieving the pinnacles of efficiency and it would be entirely normal, even encouraged! But kobolds can claim little in the ways of arts or beauty. The glory of a well crafted sculpture or a masterful illusion are lost upon them. Its a wonder that kobolds do anything other than mine! Their lives must seem so aimless

MeeposFire
2010-12-19, 11:15 PM
There is joy in a job well done. Aimless no way. Monotonous maybe. Kobolds are very driven but they are driven to simple things.

dgnslyr
2010-12-20, 12:56 AM
Well, Gnomeblight, which causes necrosis in gnomes, is extracted from Kobold Bulbs. I think that says a lot.

absolmorph
2010-12-20, 01:38 AM
I think that image is desturbing not because it looks desturbing. But because my computer blocked it.

Also you say kobolds can't take a hit. Tell that to the +1 Ac and the Kobold Barbarians.
Their penalty to Constitution says they can't take a hit.
Their minor bonus to AC (which, by the way, gnomes share) helps avoid hits.
Additionally, kobolds make horrible barbarians. They get a penalty to Strength AND Constitution, which are really important for barbarians. Plus, they're small, which reduces the size of the damage dice they use.

Milo v3
2010-12-20, 02:22 AM
I've met someone who played as a Kobold Barbarian. They played to level 18 without the barbarian dieing.

And I thought the only bonuses to AC gnomes had where the size bonuses (Which kobolds have) & fighting Kobolds (Which is only against Kobolds & Goblins).

While kobolds get size bonus (Same as gnomes) & +1 natural armour (All opponents).

absolmorph
2010-12-20, 02:59 AM
I've met someone who played as a Kobold Barbarian. They played to level 18 without the barbarian dieing.

And I thought the only bonuses to AC gnomes had where the size bonuses (Which kobolds have) & fighting Kobolds (Which is only against Kobolds & Goblins).

While kobolds get size bonus (Same as gnomes) & +1 natural armour (All opponents).
That still doesn't mean they can take a hit. If a character kills everything that comes near before they hit the character, then the character just kills stuff well (which I didn't deny was possible with a kobold, but they don't work well as barbarians because they get penalized on 2/3 of the barbarian's important stats). Having +1 AC isn't that great at high levels. With all the inflation that monster's HD get, their attack bonuses are enough that most monsters will consistently hit any AC that doesn't have some work put into it.

Bayar
2010-12-20, 04:14 AM
Their penalty to Constitution says they can't take a hit.
Their minor bonus to AC (which, by the way, gnomes share) helps avoid hits.
Additionally, kobolds make horrible barbarians. They get a penalty to Strength AND Constitution, which are really important for barbarians. Plus, they're small, which reduces the size of the damage dice they use.

A 2 level dip into Kobold Fighter gives them dodge, weapon focus in all picks, and +2 CON. 4 levels of fighter give them +2 STR (although it is kinda much to be worth it). Earth kobolds have -2 STR -2 CON. Barbarians have rage that can mitigate STR penalties. Kobolds can gain a level 1 arcane spell as a spell-like ability 1/day (or 3 times per day if he takes a feat a tthird level). How about Fist of stone ? for a +6 STR bonus ?

Yes, I played a barbarian like this in a one-shot. It was awesome.

Ozreth
2010-12-20, 04:22 AM
Gnomes are great because when reading your description of them I actually chuckled to myself and saw a dozen charming and entertaining images pass through my head.

When I read the Kobold thing I just nodded and kept going.

I do love Kobolds though.

Milo v3
2010-12-20, 04:32 AM
Do you mean my description? I thought it was friendly considering my raw hatered of Gnomes. Also great Avatar (Princess Mononoke)

absolmorph
2010-12-20, 04:54 AM
A 2 level dip into Kobold Fighter gives them dodge, weapon focus in all picks, and +2 CON. 4 levels of fighter give them +2 STR (although it is kinda much to be worth it). Earth kobolds have -2 STR -2 CON. Barbarians have rage that can mitigate STR penalties. Kobolds can gain a level 1 arcane spell as a spell-like ability 1/day (or 3 times per day if he takes a feat a tthird level). How about Fist of stone ? for a +6 STR bonus ?

Yes, I played a barbarian like this in a one-shot. It was awesome.


Note:Lets try and keep this fair only the cannon (No homebrew, whisper gnomes, or tucker Kobolds) & no variants (Subraces, Dragonwrought, Unearthed Arcana, or Whisper Gnomes). Okay this is just a fight between Standard kobolds & Standard Gnomes (PHB Or Dragonlance variety)


Races of the Dragon isn't core. The Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual are core. Kobolds are in the Monster Manual. If you want to "stick to core", those are what, and all, you can use. If the kobolds get Races of the Dragon, then gnomes get Races of Stone.
You failed to stick to core, you used variants and the spell is also available to gnomes.

Milo v3
2010-12-20, 05:07 AM
I kept to core. MeeposFire did not. As I said: no Feats, Spells, or Variants (Like dragonwrought kobolds or Whisper gnomes). Just the racial features and the Psychological traits of the creatures.

absolmorph
2010-12-20, 05:16 AM
I kept to core. MeeposFire did not. As I said: no Feats, Spells, or Variants (Like dragonwrought kobolds or Whisper gnomes). Just the racial features and the Psychological traits of the creatures.
The racial features from RotD are a variant (and are actually in the web enhancement).
Additionally, I was referring to Bayar's post not keeping within core.

Milo v3
2010-12-20, 05:25 AM
RoTD Kobolds aren't a variant it is the Updated version. It was updated to be equal to Gnomes, humans and elves. It is not a variant. I also have never read the Web Enchancement for RoTD (Is it on the wizards website? If so my borrowed computer blocks it).

absolmorph
2010-12-20, 05:49 AM
RoTD Kobolds aren't a variant it is the Updated version. It was updated to be equal to Gnomes, humans and elves. It is not a variant. I also have never read the Web Enchancement for RoTD (Is it on the wizards website? If so my borrowed computer blocks it).
Races of the Dragon uses the exact same stats as the SRD. Additionally, it's not core.
The Web Enhancement (on the WotC website, yes) has a variant which includes claws and a bite and Slight Build.

Milo v3
2010-12-20, 06:10 AM
Nearly exact same. Thier is one extra thing. One powerful thing. Some may think that is is a useless addition. But if I'm the DM it is amazingly useful. THe Dragonblooded Subtype. You count as a dragon. You eccentcally are a dragon without the Extra HD, High BAB, Low-light vision, immunities to sleep & Paralysis.

That one reason is why I said to use RotD instead of MM.

absolmorph
2010-12-20, 01:03 PM
That's giving more resources to kobolds than gnomes (who are just fine in every book they're published in) and isn't actually that powerful. The benefit of being Dragon-Blooded is an increased CL for a few spells and access to some feats. Hey, guess what!
Gnomes can cast those spells (just as well, in fact), and they can become Dragon-Blooded. Congratulations, the kobolds' one advantage is gone.

Milo v3
2010-12-20, 05:23 PM
And how can gnomes get the dragonblooded subtype? Without Polymorph or turning into a Dragonborn (Reason it is a differnent race to gnomes and shouldn't be included in this discussion).

Also dragon only prestige classes are available to kobolds.

absolmorph
2010-12-20, 11:15 PM
And how can gnomes get the dragonblooded subtype? Without Polymorph or turning into a Dragonborn (Reason it is a differnent race to gnomes and shouldn't be included in this discussion).

Also dragon only prestige classes are available to kobolds.
There's a feat.
And what dragon only prestige classes are there?

MeeposFire
2010-12-20, 11:25 PM
The Draconomicon has pestige classes for dragons only.

absolmorph
2010-12-20, 11:57 PM
The Draconomicon has pestige classes for dragons only.
Ah, yes, y'all are sticking to core so well :smalltongue:

MeeposFire
2010-12-21, 12:06 AM
Just relaying info and I do not care about core or not core.

absolmorph
2010-12-21, 12:30 AM
Well, Milo v3 was the one who requested that things be limited to core (or RotD, which should make RoS available) and there's really nothing that makes kobolds more powerful than gnomes in or out of core (not including TO builds that aren't meant for actual play).

Milo v3
2010-12-21, 12:42 AM
Thats why I said they are now balanced. They are an even match to battle it out except the Kobolds are sencible and gnomes are chaotic.

Also the speed difference really helps kobolds out (but I guess the spell-like abilities balance that out)

absolmorph
2010-12-21, 12:55 AM
Thats why I said they are now balanced. They are an even match to battle it out except the Kobolds are sencible and gnomes are chaotic.

Also the speed difference really helps kobolds out (but I guess the spell-like abilities balance that out)
Wrong. Gnomes are pranksters. Pranksters do not need to be chaotic.
Additionally, kobolds aren't any more sensible than the other races.

Milo v3
2010-12-21, 02:11 AM
Kobolds are very sensible. They help the tribe in anyway they can. But they think this out first. Normally they deside to continue with the mining projects. Also every kobold's oppinion is valued.

absolmorph
2010-12-21, 02:33 AM
Kobolds are very sensible. They help the tribe in anyway they can. But they think this out first. Normally they deside to continue with the mining projects. Also every kobold's oppinion is valued.
Proof of these claims?

Radar
2010-12-21, 05:20 AM
Kobolds are very sensible. They help the tribe in anyway they can. But they think this out first. Normally they deside to continue with the mining projects. Also every kobold's oppinion is valued.
Umm... you are now arguing unwritten fluff. If you want to picture kobolds this way in your world, it's great - go for it. Arguing that kobolds and gnomes in every world have to be to your liking isn't.

The main point of having humans, elves in all colors and shapes, dwarves, gnomes, orcs, kobolds, planetouched, half-whatever, warforged, halflings etc. is variety. Sure, their roles overlap - it just means, you have a wider selection of digger races or magic specialists or resident woobie.

Amiel
2010-12-21, 05:24 AM
The rivalry may also have stemmed from mythological roots. Legend has it that Garl Glittergold, for various reasons possibly involving humour (or whatever nonsense he deems it so), collapsed a tunnel fashioned from the bedrock by Kurtulmak. Naturally this did not sit well with the dragonspawn of Tiamat.
And to this day, an unnatural and unhealthy aggression exists within kobolds for gnomes.

Milo v3
2011-01-18, 09:10 PM
Proof of these claims?
In Races of the Dragon it has information on kobold culture. The proof is on page 46. Read the section "Workers". The information is kind of long so I wont write it here.

Also we must all remember (Including Meepos Fire) that only the following books are allowed: Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide, Monster Manual, Races Of Stone (Only the Gnome Section), Races Of the Dragon (Only the Kobold Section).

Also we are using the standard of the races. Which means no variants, subraces, Dragonwrought, Builds, ect.

sonofzeal
2011-01-18, 09:28 PM
Lessee....

Gnomes - better illusionists, better warriors

Kobolds - better rogues (esp. trapmakers)



...edge goes to Gnomes, except in a low-magic world where kobold trapsmithing can be devastating. Either way, Kobolds also have darkvision and faster speed, so they're likely to outmaneuver Gnomish attacks. Gnomes can always push them back, but Kobolds can wage excellent asymmetrical warfare and inflict heavy losses.

Really, it comes down the the DM. I've seen Kobolds handled as mere sewer vermin, and as death incarnate (http://www.geneticanomaly.com/RPG-Motivational/slides/kobolds.html). Gnomes can be anything from harmless tricksters to steampunk mad scientists.

That said, I prefer Kobolds.

Milo v3
2011-01-18, 09:37 PM
Yes illusion. Kobolds prefer to work with what is real. They like to real traps like Poison arrows, Swinging blades, Pits filled with obsidian Spikes at the bottom.

mootoall
2011-01-19, 08:47 AM
Back to this, are we? Well then, I'm going to look at this for what's a better encounter for PCs- would you rather be faced with a one-off "zap trap" as you've outlined for us, or an interesting, cunning illusion? I know which I'd like ...

Milo v3
2011-01-19, 06:53 PM
I prefer I assortment of inventive magical traps to illusions which can be broken. I still like illusions. But gnomes use illusion for Pranks. Kobolds see traps as works of art. They all ways try to find new inventive ways of protecting thier homes.

mootoall
2011-01-19, 07:48 PM
:smallsigh: But interacting with traps is just ... boring. You roll Search to see them, and then Disable Device to stop them. Boring. Illusions are so much more ... creative. Complex. Inventive. Not to mention you can replace most traps with a spell ...

Foeofthelance
2011-01-19, 07:53 PM
I love how often Kurtulmak's story is used as "evidence"

Do you also believe Zarus, Lloth, or Grummsh are telling their people unbiased, unvarnished truth? If so, I have a bridge to Bytopia with an amazing asking price...

Actually, if you think about it, they're probably rather honest with their followers.

"If you want to make me happy, go slaughter and pillage this kingdom. Send me their souls in a hand basket. If you do, I'll make powerful and rich. If you don't, I'll torment you for all eternity in new and horribly imagined ways."

As far as Good and Evil go in D&D, yes, they are concrete definitions, but they also comes with a bunch of stereotypes. Elves, Dwarfs, and Metallic Dragons are always Good. Goblins, Orcs, and Chromatic Dragons are always evil. Devils are Lawful, Demons are Chaotic, etc.

So I could very easily see Garl dropping Kurtulmak's mine on a bunch of mortal kobolds for whatever reason and dismissing it as just getting rid of another batch of Tiamat's never ending brood. Heck, it would even be "good" because he'd be getting rid of "evil" creatures!

sonofzeal
2011-01-19, 08:07 PM
:smallsigh: But interacting with traps is just ... boring. You roll Search to see them, and then Disable Device to stop them. Boring. Illusions are so much more ... creative. Complex. Inventive. Not to mention you can replace most traps with a spell ...

My favorite Kobold traps are actually multi-step and have nothing to do with Search or Disable.


Room 1 is dark, high ceiling, door at the other end. There's a barred cubbyhole above and behind the door the PCs come through, with a kobold rogue in it. When the first PC enters, he gets a Sneak Attack to the back of the head, and the kobold 5-foot-steps behind full cover so the PC has no idea where the attack came from beyond that he's getting shot at; if he tries to take cover against a wall, THAT'S when he stumbles onto the pit trap, when he's looking everywhere except at the floor.

Room 2 is a looong corridor with holes in the ceiling and a staircase at the end. The holes do nothing, and are too small for even a Halfling to squeeze through. A Kobold at the top of the stairs and around the corner is making listen checks. When he hears someone coming up the stairs, he triggers an Indiana Jones style rolling ball of doom down at them, and associates begins running through the hollowed-out ceiling, dropping caltrops. And/or marbles and/or salves of slipperiness. PCs can outrun the rolling ball of doom, but now have to run full-tilt through unexpectedly-hazardous terrain.



Saying Traps are just Search/Disable checks is like saying Illusions are just Will saves. Both allow quite a bit of creativity.

Milo v3
2011-01-20, 04:41 AM
I agree with sonofzeal. A traps can be just as inventive as illusions. Also just a note. You can put spells on Traps to make them better, but they don't need them. If you cast dispel magic on them then at least it will still do something other than disappear.

Gnorman
2011-01-20, 05:15 AM
Kobolds? Can't stand 'em. Despite their popularity (due to their association with a few cheesy tricks and a certain ingenious DM, I believe), but I find their outlook, culture, and overall style to be dull and lifeless. Like mentioned before, they're either sewer rats or sorcerous pseudo-gods, and very rarely put in the realistic middle. When they are, however, I'm inclined to be kinder.

Gnomes (who I am admittedly partial to) fall into the same category in one respect: they're rarely played out of stereotype. I like my gnomes as smooth operators, miniature casanovas and guileful tricksters, rather than the hideously-overdone half-mad tinker or japing prankster. They do have one thing going for them that few races do: they're practically invented for comic relief. Not every D&D game needs to be deadly serious, after all.

To be fair, I also despise halflings, elves, anything fey (except changelings), and almost everything halfway animal-derived (except shifters). My ideal campaign world might have dwarves, giants, fiends, and sentient steampunk robots, but that's about it. I'm a fantasy racist, and I'm okay with that.

Coidzor
2011-01-20, 05:27 AM
Saying Traps are just Search/Disable checks is like saying Illusions are just Will saves. Both allow quite a bit of creativity.

OTOH, in most games though, neither really are utilized to that extent.

LansXero
2011-01-20, 07:41 AM
Kobolds? Can't stand 'em. Despite their popularity (due to their association with a few cheesy tricks and a certain ingenious DM, I believe), but I find their outlook, culture, and overall style to be dull and lifeless.

Odd, because when I read about them in Races of the Dragon it was very very endearing. They have a very unique outlook on many things (the way in which they see romance is probably different from all other races), and the oddest part is that I didnt really see anything that justified their "always lawful evil" tag. They werent described as walking magic-machines nor as wimpy xp cannon-fodder, they had a lot of personality imho.

sonofzeal
2011-01-20, 07:47 AM
Kobolds? Can't stand 'em. Despite their popularity (due to their association with a few cheesy tricks and a certain ingenious DM, I believe)
I'm pretty sure Meepo did more for Kobold popularity than PunPun did. People play Kobolds to be Meepo, not to be PunPun.

Gnorman
2011-01-20, 08:04 AM
Odd, because when I read about them in Races of the Dragon it was very very endearing. They have a very unique outlook on many things (the way in which they see romance is probably different from all other races), and the oddest part is that I didnt really see anything that justified their "always lawful evil" tag. They werent described as walking magic-machines nor as wimpy xp cannon-fodder, they had a lot of personality imho.

RotD is one of the few sources that endears them to me, if it's any consolation. But they weren't always painted that way (and often still aren't).


I'm pretty sure Meepo did more for Kobold popularity than PunPun did. People play Kobolds to be Meepo, not to be PunPun.

Was referring more to Dragonwrought Loredrakes there.

sonofzeal
2011-01-20, 08:17 AM
Was referring more to Dragonwrought Loredrakes there.
I've seen several Kobold PCs, but no Loredrakes. I do think Meepo did a lot for the PR of the race, and gave it a sort of "scrappy underdog" status that doesn't depend on broken tricks. And the draconic association also ramps up the cool factor.

If you don't like scrappy underdogs, that's fine, but hopefully you can see why others might.

Gnorman
2011-01-20, 08:28 AM
If you don't like scrappy underdogs, that's fine, but hopefully you can see why others might.

This guy did a lot to spur my hatred of scrappy underdogs:


http://www.davemckee.us/scrappy_doo.gif

MeeposFire
2011-01-20, 03:46 PM
I'm pretty sure Meepo did more for Kobold popularity than PunPun did. People play Kobolds to be Meepo, not to be PunPun.

I think it has more to do with Deekin than even Meepo. Though that is just a personal opinion despite my choice of name.

Gamerlord
2011-01-20, 03:52 PM
I'm pretty sure Meepo did more for Kobold popularity than PunPun did. People play Kobolds to be Meepo, not to be PunPun.

Wrong.

We play them cause we want to play Deekin. :smalltongue:

Gnorman
2011-01-20, 04:34 PM
Deekin is pretty cool.

hamishspence
2011-01-20, 04:44 PM
and the oddest part is that I didnt really see anything that justified their "always lawful evil" tag.

it's "Usually Lawful evil"- plenty of room for exceptions.

Milo v3
2011-01-20, 08:09 PM
How could you say he is pretty cool?
He is ultimate. The best character from the forgotten realms (or in all of them) in my opinion. He is the reason I love kobolds and the basis of my Avatar. He is and all ways will be my favourite companion.

LansXero
2011-01-20, 09:37 PM
it's "Usually Lawful evil"- plenty of room for exceptions.

Except that the way kobolds are portrayed it doesnt seem that their society, as a whole, is particularly evil. They are pretty socialistic and totalitarian, true, but that seems to be their natural inclination; unlike humans and their love for freedom, kobolds seem to naturally love their community above everything else. Everything they do, from trapmaking to mining to building is done with their community's well-being in mind first and foremost. How is that 'evil'? :S

absolmorph
2011-01-20, 09:39 PM
Except that the way kobolds are portrayed it doesnt seem that their society, as a whole, is particularly evil. They are pretty socialistic and totalitarian, true, but that seems to be their natural inclination; unlike humans and their love for freedom, kobolds seem to naturally love their community above everything else. Everything they do, from trapmaking to mining to building is done with their community's well-being in mind first and foremost. How is that 'evil'? :S
It's the part where they subjugate everyone outside their community that makes them evil.

sonofzeal
2011-01-20, 09:47 PM
Except that the way kobolds are portrayed it doesnt seem that their society, as a whole, is particularly evil. They are pretty socialistic and totalitarian, true, but that seems to be their natural inclination; unlike humans and their love for freedom, kobolds seem to naturally love their community above everything else. Everything they do, from trapmaking to mining to building is done with their community's well-being in mind first and foremost. How is that 'evil'? :S
Maybe they're racial supremicists, happily slaughtering anyone else for the good of their own community. Maybe their society, while serving the common good, is still as sadistic and malicious as the Drow. Maybe they're greedier than Neogi. Maybe they eat their young.

Or maybe they descended from chromatic dragons, and there's enough of that bloodline in them that they'll mistakenly ping on many a Paladin's Detect Evil even if they aren't actually evil, sort of a weaker version of the "{evil}" subtype, and they really are just a misunderstood and surprisingly noble race.

Or maybe I'm talking through my arse. =P

LansXero
2011-01-20, 09:50 PM
It's the part where they subjugate everyone outside their community that makes them evil.

Isnt that a vicious circle though? RoD claims they are that way because of the thing with Garl (which if its a lie its a very deeply engrained and believed lie) and because of the way the other races view and treat them. They are xenophobic and paranoid because they tend to be attacked, raided and trampled upon, and in turn give it back, which causes them to be attacked more, etc etc. That would make every race out there evil :S

absolmorph
2011-01-20, 09:54 PM
Isnt that a vicious circle though? RoD claims they are that way because of the thing with Garl (which if its a lie its a very deeply engrained and believed lie) and because of the way the other races view and treat them. They are xenophobic and paranoid because they tend to be attacked, raided and trampled upon, and in turn give it back, which causes them to be attacked more, etc etc. That would make every race out there evil :S
Isn't that mostly adventurers who do that?

LansXero
2011-01-20, 10:05 PM
Isn't that mostly adventurers who do that?

And THEY are 'usually non-evil'. What gives? :smallfurious:

absolmorph
2011-01-20, 10:13 PM
And THEY are 'usually non-evil'. What gives? :smallfurious:
Some DMs are lazy and don't want to use non-standard low level encounters. It's easier to just take the stat blocks straight out of the MM or SRD or a module than build it yourself.

MeeposFire
2011-01-20, 10:17 PM
Morality never lasts under any scrutiny in D&D.