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View Full Version : The No-Win Plot-Critical Mid-Game BBEG Fight



GoatBoy
2010-12-17, 02:00 AM
You know, like Beatrix in FF9 or Golbez in FF2/4j. How does that make you feel?

That is, how do you feel when you, as a PC, are faced with an unbeatable for who tears the party up, then spares your pitiful lives long enough for you to make your escape?

Do you hate it, because D&D is expected to be about "challenges" that test you but always offering a chance at success? Or do you trust the DM to tell a good story, and look forward to the time when you're able to defeat the foe that humbled you?

It's something I've done more than once to my players, but I wasn't really able to gauge their reactions accurately, and I think that most of them wouldn't say so because they're just so happy to be in the great group we have. But I recall being the PC in a situation such as that, and it was a little frustrating, and even once I figured out the nature of the fight I still tried to attack the NPC in question.

I think I know how to conduct them reasonably, ie. keep them short (2-3 rounds, tops) and give the players experience and loot even though they didn't technically "win."

But, yeah. Thoughts?

Tyndmyr
2010-12-17, 02:22 AM
You know, like Beatrix in FF9 or Golbez in FF2/4j. How does that make you feel?

That is, how do you feel when you, as a PC, are faced with an unbeatable for who tears the party up, then spares your pitiful lives long enough for you to make your escape?

Do you hate it, because D&D is expected to be about "challenges" that test you but always offering a chance at success? Or do you trust the DM to tell a good story, and look forward to the time when you're able to defeat the foe that humbled you?

If I'm at the midgame fight, and the thought process is "oh, this is the DMs hopeless boss fight to show how tough he is, then we'll kill him far later"...then no, I don't trust him to tell a good story, because it's a hackneyed plot stolen from every generic RPG ever made.


It's something I've done more than once to my players, but I wasn't really able to gauge their reactions accurately, and I think that most of them wouldn't say so because they're just so happy to be in the great group we have. But I recall being the PC in a situation such as that, and it was a little frustrating, and even once I figured out the nature of the fight I still tried to attack the NPC in question.

Players almost never give good feedback to the DM about plot. If you ask them, they will invariably say vaguely positive things in most circumstances. As long as they generally enjoy the night(hanging out with friends, eating snacks, playing games), they don't usually want to risk conflict over a disagreement on one point. Especially if they're new.

But yeah, it can be frustrating. Not because of the specific situation, but because you've discovered that what your character does no longer matters, because the result is pre-determined.


I think I know how to conduct them reasonably, ie. keep them short (2-3 rounds, tops) and give the players experience and loot even though they didn't technically "win."

But, yeah. Thoughts?

Try skipping them. You don't need such a fight. Heck, you don't even need a BBEG. The current campaign I'm running(7th Sea, Freeburg, I've played it before) has no BBEG, and it's fantastic. I didn't write it, mind you, but I wish I did. Everything is related, and the characters have a wild array of choices along the way, but there's no obvious cackling bad guy that you're building up to. You just slowly find yourself being drawn into worse and worse situations.

This doesn't mean all BBEGs are bad, or that all fights are always winnable, but variety helps make things fun, and keeps players engaged. Mix up your campaign style a little.

Akal Saris
2010-12-17, 02:27 AM
I hate that kind of situation, and wouldn't do it to my PCs.

It actually happened to me in one session of a game I was in, where the BBEG (level 24 sorcerer riding an ancient red dragon vs. level 13 PCs) flew in to terrify us with his awesome power. But then I led the Quixotic charge against him, and in confusion and rather than kill us for our idiocy, the DM had the BBEG teleport away. I was quite pleased :smalltongue:

afroakuma
2010-12-17, 02:48 AM
I like them, but here are my provisos, based on a game I ran recently:

1) They should not be, strictly speaking, "no-win" so much as "heavily stacked against the players." The entity I sent after my parties, "Mr. Happy," was buffed far beyond reason and could one-shot any individual PC... but when one party (with a dragon for help) managed to take him down during the supposed curbstomp, how awesome they felt. :smallbiggrin: The message still got across thanks to a dead PC and two others seriously wounded, but it became one of the most epic scenes in the game - and they still ran the next time a Mr. Happy showed up.

2) The element wherein there is a mandatory loss - that should go away. It drains resources needlessly (possibly consumable ones) and basically mocks the players' builds. If the plot says they escape alive, then they should have every opportunity - and every reason - to attempt to do so. My parties, when they encountered Mr. Happy, turned and fled after (or during) the first round because of the potential for death, which is a very real and legitimate reaction. The one that turned back to take him down did so because their dragon ally offered to hold him off. If the point of the encounter, plotwise, is to demonstrate inadequacy or incite terror - do those things.

3) If you are going through with the fight, make it legitimate. Let the players know what the margin for success is via description. "Holy crap, I can only hit him on a 19 or better!" still lets you hit the villain, it simply sets the difficulty threshold. Don't use these encounters as monolithic "You cannot stand against me" demonstrations, let the players understand and strategize. Mr. Happy demonstrated over and over again its tremendous Will saves by ignoring the party's mental attacks, and its high AC by casually deflecting attacks with a hand or an arm. When wounded, it reacted appropriately to the damage dealt. These scenes serve a cinematic role, so make them as descriptive as you can.

J.Gellert
2010-12-17, 04:38 AM
Final Boss Preview (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FinalBossPreview) might give you some ideas on how to do it right.

Yes, when you do it right it's awesome. Of course you have to fight the villain before the final battle, that way the ending is more rewarding. Half the epic stories in existence use it somehow.

Short version: Give the villain a legitimate reason for sparing the PCs, not just overconfidence.

And remember! "I have to go so fast that I can't be bothered to spend 1 round to give you the Coup De Grace" is not a legitimate reason.

--EDIT--
Another thing of note; this kind of fight is infinitely more interesting if it was the player's choice; the BBEG doesn't just come out of nowhere to show off, but he is somehow provoked by the PC's actions.

It will likely feel a lot less arbitrary.

Psyx
2010-12-17, 06:38 AM
Remember that 5% of encounters should be 'overwhelming'. So there is precedent for whupping the PCs and forcing them to run away. It should certainly happen more than once per campaign, and groups of PCs should learn to run from fights that they can't win.

That said, stuff like this can feel a little pre-destined and plot-hammery. Especially if the BBEG 'lets the players off' and doesn't kill them.

To be honest, a better approach is to - instead of planning for the NPC to slack off after a few rounds artificially - have the BBEG actually go for the kill, but ensure that there is both the time and means to escape. That way the choice to 'spare' the PCs lives is in their own hands. As the GM you won't be rail-roading them by 'letting them off', because the players will be choosing to flee. Their fate is in their own hands. And furthermore: They'll be learning to run away! And if they die, it's really not your fault, but their own stubbornness and invincibility complex at play.

Again: Make sure that the BBEG will not be able to one-shot the PCs, so as to give them a few rounds to get our. Better still perhaps would be to have him demonstrate one-shot ability on the way to getting to the PCs: He perhaps pulls out a wand and disintegrates an obstacle that blacks the stairs between him and the PCs. Any PC with a brain will realise that he can do that more than once and will get the hint (hopefully).

The scenario I'm imagining is some of his scouts/minions/his familiar locates the PCs. Ideally some time after having a scroll of high-level teleportation drop in a monster's loot pile.
"Over here boss! It's THEM! Bring EVERYONE!"
The minions start fighting the party, and the party should start thinking about escape, as the sky darkens, storms gather, blah blah. BBEG turns up on round five via teleportation or gate or some other clearly high-level means. From the back of the room he starts blasting away with his abilities, mowing down any minions in the way with spells that are clearly very deadly. The party should take the hint.

Saph
2010-12-17, 06:42 AM
To be honest, a better approach is to - instead of planning for the NPC to slack off after a few rounds artificially - have the BBEG actually go for the kill, but ensure that there is both the time and means to escape.

This is the way I do it. It's much more exciting for the players, since it means their actions really do matter.

It's usually a bad idea to run 'cut-scene' battles where nothing the PCs do makes any difference.

GoatBoy
2010-12-17, 07:56 AM
Thanks for the input everyone.

Yeah, I believe I have had second thoughts about ever running such a battle for my players ever again, but I've got some solid ideas on how to get the same point across, that is, establish my villain as someone to be hated and feared.

I fondly remember such moments from video games as powerful and intense moments, but video games are characterized by the limits of your abilities, something that D&D and RPG's in general are designed to go past.