Weapon Skills [Peach]

[Eldan]

A random idea I had while playing ADOM, which uses such a simple system. Also a bit reminiscent of the AD&D computer games i played, with their system of giving weapon proficiency points.

Basically, we all know Weapon Focus and it's follow-up feats are rather weak. My suggestion would be this:

Weapon Focus (skill)

Class skill off: Fighters*, warblades

Like Craft, Knowledge, Perform, and Profession, Weapon Focus is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Weapon Focus skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill. Weapon Focus skills apply to Weapon Groups. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm)

Benefits: Unlike most skills, weapon focus gives you a passive bonus for just having ranks in it. For every four ranks, you gain a +1 to hit with the chosen weapon and for every three ranks, you gain a +1 to damage.

Check: Whenever someone tries to disarm you or sunder your weapon while you wield a weapon of a group you have weapon focus ranks in, you may choose to make a weapon focus check instead of a normal combat maneuver check to resist.


*Fighters obviously need to get quite a few more skill points in this system.


So, good idea? Horrible? Any more benefits that could be added?

[Spiryt]

So 6th level fighter gets + 2 to hit, and + 3 to damage with chosen weapon?

Relatively balanced it seems, and quite nice reason to use Intelligence. Where to take ability points from is another matter. :smallwink:

Also, since you can make checks after all, I would say it needs Ability Modifier, like any other skill.

[gkathellar]

This is excellent. My only thought is that its benefits (beyond special maneuver checks) cap out at 21 ranks, meaning there's relatively little reason to take it beyond that number. Whether that's a bug or a function, I can't say.

[elpollo]

Why not simply have weapon focus/specialisation scaling (and still give fighters more skill points)?

[Eldan]

That's also a possibility, but really, even with a large and scaling numeric bonus, the feat isn't really worth it.

[EdroGrimshell]

Anime d20 has this system, I like the system personally.

[arguskos]

Well I'll be. Way to make Weapon Focus etcetcetc totally worth it. Well done, Eldan! I'm definitely stealing this for future use in all my games.

[Eldan]

Also, since you can make checks after all, I would say it needs Ability Modifier, like any other skill.

Hmm. Didn't think of that. Strength or Dexterity?

[Temotei]

Hmm. Didn't think of that. Strength or Dexterity?

Maybe it could be a weird skill, changing based on what you use to make attack rolls.

For example, a fullplate-wearing fighter with a falchion would probably use Strength, but a rogue with Weapon Finesse would use Dexterity. Likewise, a character with Zen Archery would use Wisdom.

That's just an idea.

[gkathellar]

Strength normally, Dexterity w/ Weapon Finesse sounds good.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[arguskos]

Maybe it could be a weird skill, changing based on what you use to make attack rolls.

For example, a fullplate-wearing fighter with a falchion would probably use Strength, but a rogue with Weapon Finesse would use Dexterity. Likewise, a character with Zen Archery would use Wisdom.

That's just an idea.
Balance-wise, I like that. Mechanics wise, I disagree. There is no precedent for such a thing, and the added bookkeeping would be troublesome.

Perhaps, the following might work instead. Instead of replacing the relevant roll, you may add your Weapon Focus ranks to the roll. It makes Weapon Focus even more relevant, and emphasizes Fighters as the masters of battle, something I like both mechanically and thematically.

[IcarusWings]

Balance-wise, I like that. Mechanics wise, I disagree. There is no precedent for such a thing, and the added bookkeeping would be troublesome.

Perhaps, the following might work instead. Instead of replacing the relevant roll, you may add your Weapon Focus ranks to the roll. It makes Weapon Focus even more relevant, and emphasizes Fighters as the masters of battle, something I like both mechanically and thematically.

So basically turning attack rolls into a skill? Sounds interesting.

[Eloel]

Balance-wise, I like that. Mechanics wise, I disagree. There is no precedent for such a thing, and the added bookkeeping would be troublesome.


Easy. Weapon Finesse changes the key ability to Dex when taken.
Job done.
There's a LOT of precedence for that.

Also, skill checks are very easy to boost, and numeric bonuses rarely help Fighters, they can already boost numbers up very high, it's not what makes them weak.

[Soulblazer87]

While that would work, I can't help but be a bit sceptical about it. If you add BAB, stat modifiers AND Weapon Focus then it becomes too much, don't you think? Reason? AC does not scale, so anyone with a few levels of Fighter would practically always hit, so it would make little sense to even roll.

I prefer the original feat-replacing idea myself. Why spend a feat slot for a measly +1 to attack or damage? Make it a skill, which has the additional benefit of scaling, and move on to bigger and better things! The Fighter, while not feat-starved exactly, needs a lot of help to even compete with most classes out there. Same with many fighter-based base class gishes (Soulborn anyone?).

[Mulletmanalive]

While that would work, I can't help but be a bit sceptical about it. If you add BAB, stat modifiers AND Weapon Focus then it becomes too much, don't you think? Reason? AC does not scale, so anyone with a few levels of Fighter would practically always hit, so it would make little sense to even roll.

This seemes to be a misunderstanding as he's referring to the resisting Disarm/Sunder portion of the skill

[Hanuman]

I'd make it fighter, samurai (CW) and kensai, as they need the buff.

Warblades are less about the weapons and more about the battle.

I like the system, fighters should already deal more damage generally, though watch out for abuse as the reason why systems like this aren't already in place are for charge builds where you can do several times your HP in 1 hit.

[arguskos]

This seemes to be a misunderstanding as he's referring to the resisting Disarm/Sunder portion of the skill
Indeed. I am not talking about attack rolls, but instead referencing the combat maneuver portion of the skill.

[Eldan]

I'd make it fighter, samurai (CW) and kensai, as they need the buff.

Warblades are less about the weapons and more about the battle.

I like the system, fighters should already deal more damage generally, though watch out for abuse as the reason why systems like this aren't already in place are for charge builds where you can do several times your HP in 1 hit.

Samurai makes sense, yeah. I'm not going to cover all prestige classes, really. There's too many for that.

Now, for abuse: basically, they already deal so much damage, another +5 or so to hit won't even change much in most cases.

[Hanuman]

Samurai makes sense, yeah. I'm not going to cover all prestige classes, really. There's too many for that.

Now, for abuse: basically, they already deal so much damage, another +5 or so to hit won't even change much in most cases.
Well, I was referring more to the +dmg being multiplied a few times, turning a +3 into a potential +18 for a level 2 with skill focus.

Personally, what would be more fun and flavorful is giving a bonus to called shots.

The reason I mentoned samurai is because samurai NEEDS some uuber-buff. It's on the same tier as commoners!
Fighter has dungeoncrasher, samurai needs... something....

[Eldan]

Actually, Skill focus doesn't do anything. The bonus is by skill ranks.

[Cieyrin]

Well, I was referring more to the +dmg being multiplied a few times, turning a +3 into a potential +18 for a level 2 with skill focus.

Eldan's Weapon Focus is based on ranks, not your total bonus, so all Skill Focus helps with is making you harder to disarm/sunder.


Personally, what would be more fun and flavorful is giving a bonus to called shots.

You'd have to bring them back, as they didn't officially make the jump from 2nd.


The reason I mentoned samurai is because samurai NEEDS some uuber-buff. It's on the same tier as commoners!
Fighter has dungeoncrasher, samurai needs... something....

What concerns me more is this is now on the Factotum skill list, to tag along with Iaijutsu Focus. Factotums just got MOAR DAKKA!

[Hanuman]

Eldan's Weapon Focus is based on ranks, not your total bonus, so all Skill Focus helps with is making you harder to disarm/sunder.



You'd have to bring them back, as they didn't officially make the jump from 2nd.



What concerns me more is this is now on the Factotum skill list, to tag along with Iaijutsu Focus. Factotums just got MOAR DAKKA!

Understood, I'm pretty sure called shot did make the jump though, but is underused because a -2 skill debuff isn't worth a -2 or -5 to your attack roll.

[Eldan]

Really? I don't recall ever seeing a rule for called shots.

[Hanuman]

If it exists as I remember it, it's well hidden.

There's rules for expanded criticals in the draconomicon i believe but thats not the same thing.

[Cieyrin]

Called Shots aside, I also wonder about the transition of feats and PrCs that require the Weapon Focus line will work. I assume it'll be something along the line of how other skill requirements work, just Weapon Focus(any) 4+ ranks and such.

[AugustNights]

This is fantastic.
It seems to handle the problem of the feats in such a way that makes sense, and is elegant. Fighters with more bonus to hit and damage isn't, as has already been pointed out, terribly game breaking, and the ability for other classes to abuse it is kind of moot if you consider what better things they could be spending skill points on.
Now, here's my question, What about a fighter specific feat that allowed some of this to transfer over to AC? That seems to be the largest complaint my fighter players always have, Bab scales with level but AC does not. Thoughts?

[Eldan]

Well, a possibility to better represent parrying has been brought up a few times. I could even see this skill giving a small AC bonus directly.