Answering some 3.5 psionics questsions

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Everyone who has used psionics has probably heard from their DM, "why don't psions have to prepare from spellbooks?" "How come psions can remove their components with a skill check?" "What happens if a psicrystal is destroyed?"

Well, I came up with what I think is a nifty answer. You can read about it here:

http://kobolds-keep.blogspot.com/2010/12/35-psionics-focus-stones.html

Please give me some feedback. I'm pretty sure I ought to rearrange and group a few of the paragraphs in this. I'm considering making slotless focus stone items specifically for manifesters.

[gkathellar]

I don't see why psions should require an excuse for not preparing from a spellbook when sorcerers don't. As for removing components, I thought the whole point of psionics was that you're warping reality with the power of your mind, rather than odd arcane rituals.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Honestly? There's no reason at all for this change. Psionicists don't need to be "balanced" by requiring a spellbook analog, the LoE limitation is a pointless nerf, and the requirement to have the focus crystal on you and in hand is much more crippling than a holy symbol or component pouch. I suggest you outline why you think psionics needs something like this before attempting to "fix" it.

[GnomeWorks]

Everyone who has used psionics has probably heard from their DM, "why don't psions have to prepare from spellbooks?"

If someone - anyone - asked me why psions didn't have to prepare from a spellbook, I would question their familiarity with "psionics" in literature or film.


"How come psions can remove their components with a skill check?"

I think a far better question is, "Why did Cordell feel it necessary to give 3e psionics weird displays?"


"What happens if a psicrystal is destroyed?"

The same thing that happens to a wizard when their familiar is killed, since the psicrystal is an analogue to the familiar?

[Eldan]

Really, I don't think any of that is necessary.

Under most circumstances, psions are more balanced than wizards already. They shouldn't need book-equivalents or components at all.

And if someone thinks they are too strong: they have a fix limit on the amount of powers they know, and most of them aren't quite as broken as spells.

[Gamer Girl]

Everyone who has used psionics has probably heard from their DM, "why don't psions have to prepare from spellbooks?" "How come psions can remove their components with a skill check?" "What happens if a psicrystal is destroyed?"

Psions use spellbooks? Er, I hope no DM thinks that. And remove components? Are there psionic powers with components?

The psicrysal, well just get another one....


Focus Stones look a bit useless. And they nerf a psion too. The bad guy can just walk up and graple the stone and block all the powers?

And I don't like the idea of a psionist being depended on a stone, or anything. Psi power comes from inside you. It's fine to have a stone for focus, but not a stone as a crutch.

[Mulletmanalive]

I think a far better question is, "Why did Cordell feel it necessary to give 3e psionics weird displays?"

Primarily to avoid the problem that arises with powers with no displays in Mutants and Masterminds: people wandering around spamming them with no fear of repercussion. It was one of the three things that made the 2e Psionics so stupidly borked [the other two being the lack of saves on most things and the maximise effect of scoring a critical]

[GnomeWorks]

Primarily to avoid the problem that arises with powers with no displays in Mutants and Masterminds: people wandering around spamming them with no fear of repercussion.

So the solution to this is to saddle an entire set of abilities - which traditionally is not detectable by observing the individual using them - with a bunch of weird "displays" that don't make any particular sense?

Way too much of a cop-out.

I never used the darn things. Never have, never will.

[Kajhera]

So the solution to this is to saddle an entire set of abilities - which traditionally is not detectable by observing the individual using them - with a bunch of weird "displays" that don't make any particular sense?

Way too much of a cop-out.

I never used the darn things. Never have, never will.

There are times when it's a really confusing question what happens when I hide the display. :smallconfused:

But yeah... these seem like answers to questions I've never heard asked, except the one on what happens when a psion loses their psicrystal. (The answer to which is apparently, nothing and they get another one, which still leaves the question of 'er, when?')

[Nero24200]

I feel I should echo what others have said and say theres not really a need for such a thing. Most of the "Psionics are broken" stuff you hear on forums is mostly hype from people who don't know the rules/believe what they read online too much/read their previous, less balanced predacessors and haven't bothered reading the 3.5 version.

I don't see any reason why Psions should have a focus. I already feel they are less powerful than core casters (and I don't mean by just a bit, I mean quite a bit weaker), so giving them a pointless nerf which also goes against their flavour isn't something I'd be interested in.

[Mulletmanalive]

So the solution to this is to saddle an entire set of abilities - which traditionally is not detectable by observing the individual using them - with a bunch of weird "displays" that don't make any particular sense?

"Traditionally" seems like an odd choice of word, given that in most of the sci-fi i've encountered barring starwars, psionic type abilities come with displays of some kind. Creeping feelings [tactile], metalic tastes [taste], acrid smells [smell] or if powerful enough, spontaneous nosebleeds.

The only ones i can thing of that don't have some effect on the surroundings are semi-passive things like mind reading and low level telepathy. I remember one book where the whole point of the main character was that his mind affecting powers DIDN'T cause the metalic taste thing

[Kajhera]

It would be rather nice to choose your own visual displays, rather than having a 'taste the rainbow!' feel to every single psion, but this is probably a thing to be worked out with a DM.

[Lateral]

You're thinking about the psion wrong. They are NOT psionic versions of wizards. They're psionic versions of sorcerers. Just because they're INT-based and Wilders are CHA-based does not make Wilders the psionic sorcerers and Psions the psionic wizard. The erudite is the psionic wizard, the psion is the psionic INT-sorcerer, and the wilder is just a different thing.

[Glimbur]

Primarily to avoid the problem that arises with powers with no displays in Mutants and Masterminds: people wandering around spamming them with no fear of repercussion.

You can't really afford to spam psionic powers willy-nilly as they do cost power points. As for a lack of repercussions...
Succeeding on a Saving Throw

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow)
It's not much, but it is something. It's also a DC 25+ spellcraft check to identify a spell from just saving against it, which is hard but possible.

[Hrairoo]

You're thinking about the psion wrong. They are NOT psionic versions of wizards. They're psionic versions of sorcerers. Just because they're INT-based and Wilders are CHA-based does not make Wilders the psionic sorcerers and Psions the psionic wizard. The erudite is the psionic wizard, the psion is the psionic INT-sorcerer, and the wilder is just a different thing.

i'm not familiar with erudites. are they core?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

i'm not familiar with erudites. are they core?

Complete Psionic. They're a variant psion that essentially "retroactively prepares" powers--they have no upper cap on powers known, but they once they use a power it's "locked in" for the rest of the day as one of their unique powers per day, sort of like a wizard who could choose prepared spells on the fly.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You're thinking about the psion wrong. They are NOT psionic versions of wizards. They're psionic versions of sorcerers. Just because they're INT-based and Wilders are CHA-based does not make Wilders the psionic sorcerers and Psions the psionic wizard. The erudite is the psionic wizard, the psion is the psionic INT-sorcerer, and the wilder is just a different thing.

Perhaps your the one thinking of it wrong my friend.

People compare them to wizards for reasons beyond intelligence. When it comes to perday fire power, the class is more comparable to wizards. A psion's augmentation and power point system also makes them much more versatile then a sorcerer. A well built psion could be prepared to battle any enemy much more easily then a sorcerer.

[Lateral]

Perhaps your the one thinking of it wrong my friend.

People compare them to wizards for reasons beyond intelligence. When it comes to perday fire power, the class is more comparable to wizards. A psion's augmentation and power point system also makes them much more versatile then a sorcerer. A well built psion could be prepared to battle any enemy much more easily then a sorcerer.

:smallconfused:

Sorcerers get to 'augment' (read: metamagic) too, and do so on the fly- just as a psion augments as he sees fit at the time of casting. The psion is as flexible than a sorcerer, and MUCH more flexible than a wizard, because he learns powers that he casts spontaneously from his pool of PP. A well-built psion is only about as prepared as a sorcerer, because he has a limited number of powers he knows. The INT-synergy is, in fact, about the only parallel between a standard psion and a wizard. The fact that psions are about as flexible as sorcerers is one of the reasons they're tier 2, and erudites are tier 1 because they're flexible in a similar way to wizards. (Well, that and the Spell-to-Power ACF.)

[Lord Vukodlak]

:smallconfused:

Sorcerers get to 'augment' (read: metamagic) too, and do so on the fly- just as a psion augments as he sees fit at the time of casting. The psion is as flexible than a sorcerer, and MUCH more flexible than a wizard, because he learns powers that he casts spontaneously from his pool of PP. A well-built psion is only about as prepared as a sorcerer, because he has a limited number of powers he knows.

Your comparing metamagic to power augmentation? totally different scales, not just different leagues different sports. No amount of metamagic turns summon monster I to summon monster IX. Astral Construct gets to scale simply by pumping more power points. Psions can change between fire, cold, electric and sonic damage without feats or special class abilities.
Powers that are limited to work on say only a single type of creature[say humanoid] can be augmented to effect others.

Psions have a limited powers known similar to sorcerers but augmentation means those powers are each more versatile.
The sorcerer holds the advantage for endurance he can go far more encounters before running out of effective juice.

As I said before, if your talking how much magic/power they can pump out in a single day. The wizard and psion are a close comparison.

A wizard is considered flexible because they can in theory prepare the exact right spells for the situation. As long as the wizard has a heads up on whats coming. Which is why the class is Tier 1.

A sorcerer or a psion has to pick the right spells/powers for a blanket coverage. But the psion's lower level powers don't fall out of use as often as a sorcerer's.

[Lateral]

:smallconfused:

Your comparing metamagic to power augmentation? totally different scales, not just different leagues different sports.No amount of metamagic turns summon monster I to summon monster IX. Astral Construct gets to scale simply by pumping more power points. Psions can change between fire, cold, electric and sonic damage without feats or special class abilities.
Powers that are limited to work on say only a single type of creature[say humanoid] can be augmented to effect others.
What? The augmentation is just like how, say, a Fireball goes from 5d6 to 10d6 at different caster levels, but you have to pay for it in the form of power points. It's more like spell-specific metamagic- it increases the amount of PP it costs, like MM increases the level of the spell. Remember, 2 pp equals one spell level. Wizards can't do anything similar to changing between energies with feats. Allowing them to add metamagic-like augmenting on the fly provides short-term flexibility. Short-term. Wizards are long-term flexible, sorcerers are short-term. Which one draws a parallel here?

Psions have a limited powers known similar to sorcerers but augmentation means those powers are each more versatile.
Exactly, they're more versatile in the short term. Compare, say, 19 spells known at 8th level for a sorcerer, to 17 for a psion but perhaps the effectiveness of maybe 34 (if you are liberal with your estimates), to a virtually unlimited number for a wizard. Seriously, compare the two. The gulf is infinitely more between psion and wizard than psion and sorcerer.

The sorcerer holds the advantage for endurance he can go far more encounters before running out of effective juice.
No, he doesn't. The psion can choose to use lower level spells and last far longer than a sorcerer. In that respect, he has even more flexibility in the short term.


As I said before, if your talking how much magic/power they can pump out in a single day. The wizard and psion are a close comparison.
Only if the psion uses his powers wastefully. The psion can pump out more power, if you use power points to cast the right spells in the right places. If a wizard had no 1st level slots left, he'd have to waste a higher level spell on weak opponents, even if he had prepared the perfect 1st level spell earlier and already used it.

A wizard is considered flexible because they can in theory prepare the exact right spells for the situation. As long as the wizard has a heads up on whats coming he can prepare the right spells to be useful
A sorcerer or a psion has to try and learn the right powers

...What is this I don't even.

That... what?

That wasn't even something like irrelevant, it was supporting my side. The sorcerer and psion are closer together than the wizard.

All in all, I think we may have to call it a difference of opinion.