Still Recovering from reading the Immortal's Handbook......

[Chess435]

Holy crap.




Just........ wow.


That was my first reaction when I got to look through the Immortal's handbook today. I was flabbergasted when reading through entries such as the neutronium golem, who can destroy a planet with a single punch. What surprised me the most, though, is that there are things in there that can kill Pun-Pun! Freaking Pun-Pun!!!! The supposedly infinitely powerful destroyer of everything Pun-Pun!!!!!!!!! The Time Lords are to Pun-Pun as Ao is to a level 1 commoner!!!! My head still hurts just trying to comprehend that level of power!

Okay Cody, get a hold of yourself......

Phew, I feel a bit better now, at least sane enough to function again. Anyway enough rattling on, thoughts?

[Yora]

What are you talking about?

[Chess435]

It's a third-party D&D supplement of insane amounts of power. Like making OVER 9000!!! look pathetic.

[Xefas]

What are you talking about?

Take a standard monster from the 3.5 Monster Manual. Add 10 zeroes after every single number on its statblock. You now have the Immortal's Handbook, in a nutshell.

[Aharon]

@Chess
Neutronium Golems are actually rather weak. There has been a discussion on this topic a while ago: here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159082)

Big numbers do less than they appear to at first, in D&D.

And Pun-Pun's method of acquiring power is limited only by his imagination, so he can make himself more powerful than time lords and stuff.

[Eldan]

Defeating pun-pun is actually impossible just by logic.
Why?

Pun-pun creates an ability "Retroactive immunity to Time Lords, all their abilities and all they could use on me" and gives it to himself.

And yes, the Neutronium Golem isn't very impressive. Sure, it's numbers are enormous, but it has a lot of glaring weaknesses a wizard can exploit.

[Vistella]

the Neutronium Golem isnt hard, a lvl20 sorcerer can solo it within 1 round. and im not even sure if all 20 levels are needed but thats what ive read last

€: lvl 12 is actually enough

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah...your brain only hurts if you look at the Immortals Handbook and think it has any rules written by humans. If you know the truth, that its contents are entirely generated by putting a number pad in front of an epileptic monkey wearing boxing gloves before letting a human give the final product names and descriptions, you're much better off.

[Z3ro]

Defeating pun-pun is actually impossible just by logic.
Why?

Pun-pun creates an ability "Retroactive immunity to Time Lords, all their abilities and all they could use on me" and gives it to himself.

And yes, the Neutronium Golem isn't very impressive. Sure, it's numbers are enormous, but it has a lot of glaring weaknesses a wizard can exploit.

That's a very peculiar take on the "any ability" description of manipulate form that many people seem to have, yet I will never understand. Just because it says "any ability" it doesn't mean you can just make them up. That would be like selecting the feat "I can never die" when creating a character, then presenting it to the DM that "it never says I have to select a feat published in a specific source" as to why it would work.

I know pun-pun is an excercize in the absurd. But if you don't stick to the rules there's no point in even the exercize.

[DisgruntledDM]

Yeah...your brain only hurts if you look at the Immortals Handbook and think it has any rules written by humans. If you know the truth, that its contents are entirely generated by putting a number pad in front of an epileptic monkey wearing boxing gloves before letting a human give the final product names and descriptions, you're much better off.

I must purchase this book now.

[Lateral]

That's a very peculiar take on the "any ability" description of manipulate form that many people seem to have, yet I will never understand. Just because it says "any ability" it doesn't mean you can just make them up. That would be like selecting the feat "I can never die" when creating a character, then presenting it to the DM that "it never says I have to select a feat published in a specific source" as to why it would work.

I know pun-pun is an excercize in the absurd. But if you don't stick to the rules there's no point in even the exercize.

The description of Pun-Pun mentions it as a possible thing Pun-Pun can do because of the specific wording of the Sarrukh's Manipulate Form ability. A sane DM would never allow it, but a sane DM would pull out a shotgun whenever he hears the words 'sarrukh' or 'pazuzu' at character generation.

[Wabbajack]

The specific wording is that a Sarrukh can grant a spell-like, supernatural or extraordinary ability.

You can't grant an ability that doesn't exist the same way you can't wildshape into something that doesn't exist.

[Z3ro]

The specific wording is that a Sarrukh can grant a spell-like, supernatural or extraordinary ability.

You can't grant an ability that doesn't exist the same way you can't wildshape into something that doesn't exist.

Exactly my point; thank you.

[Kylarra]

Yeah...your brain only hurts if you look at the Immortals Handbook and think it has any rules written by humans. If you know the truth, that its contents are entirely generated by putting a number pad in front of an epileptic monkey wearing boxing gloves before letting a human give the final product names and descriptions, you're much better off.Still an amusing read though... once.

[Starbuck_II]

Reading the page:
http://immortalshandbook.com/sermon1.1.htm

He tries to use real life logic, boxes himself in so decides to do away with cold damage and turn it into stat damage.

He used a bad table when he mentions lightning so he has to explain: he didn't mean lightning as lightning bolts are weaker. Really, if it has no revelvance why add it to table?

[nedz]

What gets me is this passage, from your source.

So lets say you are a DM who wants to run an immortal campaign using Deities & Demigods as a basis. Virtually every avenue of threat is closed off to you! Even for epic monsters almost every special ability is rendered obsolete in the face of so many immunities. This is going to choke the life from any such campaign, and the more immunities and absolutes (say from magic items or salient divine abilities) you add, the more you paint yourself into a corner as the number of poignant options dwindle.

It strike me as obvious that he has never run such a game.

From experience: games at this level are about finding the "Achilles heel" of your opponent. This is really an extension of the arms race that is high level/epic gaming: eventually everyone will have immunities to almost everything; but can you find (or more likely manufacture) the chink in their armour ?

In such a scenario the numbers are irrelevant: its all rocket tag with ICBMs.
So you have 1e12 HP, well anyway: everyone takes 1e12d6 damage from the nuke, reflex save DC 50 for half; do you have evasion ?
This is a crude example, but its all like that.

Personally I prefer games in the 1-6 level range, because they are more fun, but we all have to try this once I suppose.

[molten_dragon]

I was flabbergasted when reading through entries such as the neutronium golem, who can destroy a planet with a single punch.

The math on that is horrendous. The idea that an earth-sized planet has only a bit over a hundred thousand hit points is ridiculous. By the rules in the PHB for object hit points it would have billions.

[Eldan]

That's a very peculiar take on the "any ability" description of manipulate form that many people seem to have, yet I will never understand. Just because it says "any ability" it doesn't mean you can just make them up. That would be like selecting the feat "I can never die" when creating a character, then presenting it to the DM that "it never says I have to select a feat published in a specific source" as to why it would work.

I know pun-pun is an excercize in the absurd. But if you don't stick to the rules there's no point in even the exercize.

Even then: if Time Lords are in, Pun-pun can give himself every ability a time Lord has, plus every ability of every god, plus whatever else he needs. So, he's better than a Time Lord.
Even if you only allow published abilities, he's automatically better than every other published creature, just because he can do everything that creature can do, and more.

[Gralamin]

That's a very peculiar take on the "any ability" description of manipulate form that many people seem to have, yet I will never understand. Just because it says "any ability" it doesn't mean you can just make them up. That would be like selecting the feat "I can never die" when creating a character, then presenting it to the DM that "it never says I have to select a feat published in a specific source" as to why it would work.

I know pun-pun is an excercize in the absurd. But if you don't stick to the rules there's no point in even the exercize.

Here's an interesting thing though:

A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it.

Compare and contrast to your own example:

Select a Feat

Each 1st-level character starts with one feat. Table 5-1: Feats (page 90) lists all feats, their prerequisites (if any), and a brief description.
(Bold mine)
Feats are a specific case where the core rule book is specifically stated to include EVERY feat. Thus any other feat you use prevents it from being in the list of all feats. Technically I think non-core feats thus cannot be taken because of this... Especially since the Players Handbook is the primary source for feats. So since it contains All feats, any other feat is contradicting the primary source, and thus invalid.

Discounting that argument, this was dealt with a long time ago by Lord of Procrastination, and It's been in the Pun-Pun post for ages.


LordofProcrastination devised an interesting way to justify out of the ordinary abilities without simply conjuring them from thin air. 'Out of the ordinary abilities' is referring to abilities that would normally be found as supernatural or spell-like but instead granted to Pun-Pun as extraordinary. For example, Manipulte Form is normally a supernatural ability. However, Pun-Pun could easily stay within the parameters set by Manipulate Form and grant himself an extraordinary version of Manipulate Form. The benefit being that Pun-Pun can make himself completely immune to all magic and supernatural effects without hindering the use of his own Manipulate Form ability. This is all too easy though, so LordofProcrastination used the Epic Spell rules in the Epic Level Handbook to create a clever workaround. Here is the low down:


Okay, here's a little combo that will help clarify things even more for Pun-Pun. In particular, it will allow for the diversification of his abilities and get past some of the inherent rancor to the "sheer player-invention" aspect of Manipulate Form.

Premise 1: Pun-Pun has access to Epic Spellcasting, and can create any pretty much Epic Spell he imagines.

Premise 2: The Conjure, Fortify, and Life seeds can be used in conjunction to create entirely new creatures. Furthermore, these creatures can be given abilities based on any epic seed added which "replicates the desired ability." Whether these abilities are spell-like, supernatural, or extraordinary is up to the creator of the spell.

Premise 3: The Shadow Seed can replicate any spell and any individual. The Transform seed can reproduce any creature/creature's abilities. The Ward Seed can produce immunity to any and all spells. The Reflect Seed offers protection from all ranged, melee, and spell-like attacks. And so on and so forth.

Conclusion: Pun-Pun can create creatures with pretty much any ability, spell, or feature in any mode he desires, which can then be gained through the old Manipulate Form trick. Getting an (Ex) Manipulate Form ability should be first on the list, which would then mean that there's no worrying about gaining total magical immunity. Furthermore, this means that Pun-Pun no longer has to rely on active spells (epic or not), they can all be incorporated into himself as extraordinary (that is, non-magical) abilities of any duration/method of activation desired.

This limits his power slightly from the invent new abilities version: You no longer can say, "I have the ability I Win No Matter What (Ex)", but you can say, "I have everything as Extraordinary abilities, and I can do anything an epic spell can do as an Extraordinary ability."

[Runestar]

The math on that is horrendous. The idea that an earth-sized planet has only a bit over a hundred thousand hit points is ridiculous. By the rules in the PHB for object hit points it would have billions.

This gives me a funny mental image regarding lex luthor from "Superman Returns", when he exclaims "Billions!". :smalltongue:

That said, I did find their revised EL/cr formula quite promising at first, but upon closer scrutiny, it also seems quite hit and miss.

Yes, I agree that classed npcs' cr are inflated, and for melee at least, cr = 2/3 class lvs seems like a good estimate (in line with my own findings as well).

Then I realise I can't seem to make head or tail of the rest of the article. :smalleek:

[Iamyourking]

Ok, I know you are all greatly enjoying your mockery; but the Immortal's Handbook is better than you are giving it credit for.

1. Yes, the Neutronium Golem is ludicrous. He is also 9.1 times stronger than the next most powerful creature and singlehandedly raises the average Challenge Rating by 60 and should be considered an outlier. As such, I ask you to compare these charts of the Challenge Ratings within; one with the golem and one without.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h11/Iamyourking/ImmortalsHandbook.png
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h11/Iamyourking/ImmortalsHandbook2.png. See the difference? While admittedly the Orichalcum Leviathan also causes a rather large spike, it is only 1.54 times more powerful than the Great Wyrm Void Dragon. Just as an ending note in this regard, the Neutronium Golem comprises 33.1% of the total cumulative challenge ratings of everything in the book.
2. Putting aside the Neutronium Golem for a minute, were you aware that 17 of the 149 creatures are sub-epic? Furthermore, many of the other creatures involved have sample adventure hooks for how to involve them in the sub-epic and low-epic power ranges that most campaigns take place in. On top of that, more than half (75 out of 149) of the creatures are within the power bounds set by the Epic Level Handbook by virtue of being weaker than Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons. The templates, with the exception of the Amidah, Akalich, and in certain cases the Macrobe, are all weaker than the Paragon and Psuedonatural templates and as such are not deserving of any scorn for their power levels.
3. Finally, I must protest the claims that everything in it is just regular Monster Manual creatures with a bunch of numbers tacked on. You may have confused them with the Killer Penguin that pops up on occasion, who really is just a big pile of numbers, but I would argue that with the exception of the animals that have received the massive size increase templates everything is a well-designed creature with multiple things to keep it unique.

Does it have its flaws? Yes, the Neutronium Golem was frankly a mistake as it keeps anyone from taking the work seriously as they all gravitate towards it, the cosmology is frankly rather silly (Who would possibly believe that the ultimate examples of Good and Evil are non-lawful?), and it only goes up to G alphabetically. However, this is due to the fact that it is the first of three volumes that were never finished due to Upper_Krust abandoning the project, which presumedly would contain more entries on the mid-epic scale that the project was built around; and it is my view that that was the intention to begin with, to flesh out the mid-epic levels that the Epic Level Handbook neglected and the high-epic levels that it utterly ignored. Even ignoring the creatures, its construction guidelines are very well done as they greatly streamline the process of creating creatures and provide reference points to stand on; I would suggest that everyone try the process for making golems out of any given material. As a final note, the actual Immortals Handbook actually does contain abilities that can make one more powerful than Pun Pun by giving literally infinite scores in one stat; which is cancelled out by the enemy having infinite scores in the opposing stat. (Eg. a Time Lord with infinite strength would always hit and always kill anything except another Time Lord with infinite dexterity or constitution, who would have infinite AC and HP against anything except said opposing Time Lord)

You may now return to your mockery, but I would like it if you kept this in mind.

[awa]

I have not read the book so i can not comment on anything else you said but what is stopping pun pun from stealing the infinite stat power of the time lord? or being immune to all damage?

[Gametime]

If the means by which Time Lords obtain infinite stats is an ability, Pun-Pun can have it. Ergo, Pun-Pun has infinite stats. If it isn't an ability, I'm not sure how they're getting to infinite numbers in the first place.

[HunterOfJello]

Pun-Pun is unbeatable by any monster with stats because of one-upmanship. If a new being comes into existence which is more powerful than him, then Pun-Pun can quickly gain all of the abilities of the previously more powerful monster to become more powerful himself. He "one-ups" the monster quickly and efficiently.

Also remember than Pun-Pun can move at near infinite speeds and use all sorts of abilities to not be detected. Therefore, by the time the new (now not as comparatively powerful) monster gets within range of doing anything to Pun-Pun, he has already lost.

[Tiki Snakes]

Not to mention the ramifications of him stealing that designated-foe power, thing.

[Z3ro]

This limits his power slightly from the invent new abilities version: You no longer can say, "I have the ability I Win No Matter What (Ex)", but you can say, "I have everything as Extraordinary abilities, and I can do anything an epic spell can do as an Extraordinary ability."

Where's he getting epic spellcasting? Spellcasting in general falls into that weird category that idn't any kind of ability, it just is. The closest pun-pun can get are spell-like abilities.

Plus, epic spells explicitly require DM approval. If pun-pun is a thought experiment in RAW abuse, nothing that requires DM approval can be used, thus no epic spells.


Pun-Pun is unbeatable by any monster with stats because of one-upmanship. If a new being comes into existence which is more powerful than him, then Pun-Pun can quickly gain all of the abilities of the previously more powerful monster to become more powerful himself. He "one-ups" the monster quickly and efficiently.

Also remember than Pun-Pun can move at near infinite speeds and use all sorts of abilities to not be detected. Therefore, by the time the new (now not as comparatively powerful) monster gets within range of doing anything to Pun-Pun, he has already lost.

Unless those abilities are not of the spell-like, supernatural, or extraordinary kind. Then pun-pun can't steal them. Also, infinite stats will always beat abritrarily high ones, as pun-pun will never have infinite stats (an important distinction).

[Project_Mayhem]

Plus, epic spells explicitly require DM approval. If pun-pun is a thought experiment in RAW abuse, nothing that requires DM approval can be used, thus no epic spells.

Uh ... nope. The whole point of TO is that no DM would ever let it fly. Something explicitly listed as an option can be taken

[Prime32]

Unless those abilities are not of the spell-like, supernatural, or extraordinary kind. Then pun-pun can't steal them. Also, infinite stats will always beat abritrarily high ones, as pun-pun will never have infinite stats (an important distinction).All abilities are one of those three kinds by definition.

Pun-Pun steals the "inifinite stats" ability. A Time Lord challenges him. Their infinite stats abilities cancel each other out, leaving the Time Lord with high stats vs Pun-Pun's NI ones.

And again, Pun-Pun has the aleax's Singular Enemy ability applied to himself, which means reality will not allow creatures other than himself to defeat him.



There was one attempt at overpowering Pun-Pun called the Mortiverse, which used material from a bunch of sources including the Immortal's Handbook and Iron Heroes, while restricting Pun-Pun to WotC material and no made-up powers. Basically the Mortiverse had billions of HD, could nullify the strongest power of any entity, and had abilities and divine ranks equal to the strongest entity in the multiverse +1.

Pun-Pun defeated it by by making a Diplomacy check in the trillions, turning it into a mindless slave.

[Z3ro]

Uh ... nope. The whole point of TO is that no DM would ever let it fly. Something explicitly listed as an option can be taken

I thought the whole point of TO was to show what can be done with RAW. If the RAW say "ask your DM" you can't really do it. If you assume the DM will approve any option, what's the point?


All abilities are one of those three kinds by definition.

Pun-Pun steals the "inifinite stats" ability. A Time Lord challenges him. Their infinite stats abilities cancel each other out, leaving the Time Lord with high stats vs Pun-Pun's NI ones.

That's assuming "infinite stats" is an ability, and not simply his stats (someone with the immortal handbook can clarify). If it's just his stats then there's nothing to steal.



There was one attempt at overpowering Pun-Pun called the Mortiverse, which used material from a bunch of sources including the Immortal's Handbook and Iron Heroes, while restricting Pun-Pun to WotC material and no made-up powers. Basically the Mortiverse had billions of HD, could nullify the strongest power of any entity, and had abilities and divine ranks equal to the strongest entity in the multiverse +1.

Pun-Pun defeated it by by making a Diplomacy check in the trillions, turning it into a mindless slave.

Why wouldn't the Mortiverse simply go first, then use the diplomacy check himself (and a helpful person is hardly a mindless slave).

[Starbuck_II]

Why wouldn't the Mortiverse simply go first, then use the diplomacy check himself (and a helpful person is hardly a mindless slave).

Look up epic uses of Diplomacy: we will wait.
You back? Yeah, you see why it is now a mindless slave.

Too apathetic:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy

[Kylarra]

From my copy of Immortals Handbook: Ascension, I don't see a reference to infinite stats of a timelord, but the template does have:
Abilities (Ex): +400 to each Ability Score.

[Z3ro]

Look up epic uses of Diplomacy: we will wait.
You back? Yeah, you see why it is now a mindless slave.

Too lazy:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy

First no need to be a jerk about it.

Giving life to help is still not a mindless slave. Oh, and that use is mind-affecting, making it even more useless, as I'm sure Mortiverse is immune to mind-affecting effects.

[Kylarra]

The mortiverse is a boring series of numbers that makes the neutronium golem and all of its silliness seem "rational".

[awa]

infinite stats don't matter to pun pun you always hit and do infinite damage pun pun has regenerate with no vulnerabilities and ignores subdual damage so all the damage in the world does nothing. (although as others have pointed out their is an ability that only allow some person to attempt to harm you any one else trying to hurt you does nothing. just giving a monster really big numbers in their stat block will not make them better than pun pun.

[Ormur]

Plus, epic spells explicitly require DM approval. If pun-pun is a thought experiment in RAW abuse, nothing that requires DM approval can be used, thus no epic spells.

Rule zero is also printed so under that interpretation no TO is ever possible. TO just looks at theoritical possibilities so you can set any parametres you care for within RAW, including a DM that allows or disallows epic spell casting depending on the level of TO. I don't see a reason to pick at a TO build no DM would allow anyway based on it specifically being subject to DM's approval just like anything else in the game. When figuring out the most powerful build possible in D&D, Pun-Pun, using all available sources seems appropriate.

[SurlySeraph]

The mortiverse is a boring series of numbers that makes the neutronium golem and all of its silliness seem "rational".

I enjoyed reading it until I got to "magic from this universe" in its immunities. Since it doesn't define which universe, that's kinda stupid and cheap and evades interesting ways to kill it (like finding spells from a mirror universe that work on it). Also "natural effects," "permanent destruction," and "wounding," because those are undefined and clear excuses to handwave away killing it. Its Generate Spawn ability is also very eye-roll inducing.

Anyway, with a bit of handwaving and epic magic it can be dealt with, assuming non of the Immortal's Handbook traits it have that I'm too lazy to look up negate these tricks. Celerity to go first, lots of extra action tricks, use epic-spell-from-another-universe SR-ignoring versions of Graymantle and Spark of Life to strip away most of its immunities, then kill it with some variety of infinite or near-infinite loop (1d2 Crusader or Aptitude Lightning Maces build using a weapon made from matter from a different universe that doesn't count as a "natural effect," custom epic spell to make it vulnerable to non-epic spells and then an Arcane Fusion loop, epic version of Enervation since it's now vulnerable to energy drain and has a finite number of hit points, arbitrarily high number of Spell Clocks repeatedly casting SR: no spells with Fell Drain attached, etc.)