Shifter - Warblade/Warshaper/Bloodclaw Master

[Elric VIII]

So, I have recently come across Races of Eberron and my mind is aflutter with ideas, the most prominent of which is a Shifter. I will be taking two flaws and going for the Razorclaw, with Longstride as the Extra Shifter Trait.

Warblade 1: Razorclaw Elite, Shifter Ferocity, Extra Shifter Trait

Fighter 1: Two Weapon Fighting

Fighter 2: Shifter Acrobatics, Weapon Focus (claw)

Warblade 2: -

Warblade 3: -

Warblade 4: Shifter Agility

Bloodclaw Master 1: -

Bloodclaw Master 2: -

Bloodclaw Master 3: Great Rend

Bloodclaw Master 4: -

Bloodclaw Master 5: -

Warshaper 1: Longstride Elite

Warshaper 2: -

Warshaper 3: -

Warshaper 4: Shifter Defense

Warblade 5: Weapon Specialization (claws)

Warblade 6: -

Warblade 7: Greater Shifter Defense

Warblade 8: -

Warblade 9: Melee Weapon Mastery

Other than requesting general advice on this build (as my 1st non-spellcaster) I have a few questions.

1.) Is there a single feat that adds the ability to use shifting an additional time, rather than another effect + 1/2 of a shifting use?


2.)Can I get iterative attacks with my claws if I use them as unarmed attacks, rather than natural attacks?

For instance, can I take Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Stike to get attacks based on my BAB, and still have them count as claws for feats and class features? (If so, I'll be replacing weapon focus and spec)

3.) When full attacking with both claws, are both considered primary attacks, since they are the same attack, or does one take -5?

[Elric VIII]

Some things that I forgot:

4.)Can I TWF with claws?

5.)Other than Amulet of Mighty Fists and permanent Magic Fang, is there a way for me to get enhancement bonuses on my attacks?

6.) I vaguely recall a ruling that a creature can bypass any DR that it possesses, is this a rule?

Also, does it work with Shifter Defense (DR 2/silver while shifting)?

[AslanCross]

1.) Is there a single feat that adds the ability to use shifting an additional time, rather than another effect + 1/2 of a shifting use?
None, unfortunately.



2.)Can I get iterative attacks with my claws if I use them as unarmed attacks, rather than natural attacks?

For instance, can I take Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Stike to get attacks based on my BAB, and still have them count as claws for feats and class features? (If so, I'll be replacing weapon focus and spec)
I think some debates have gone back and forth with this without resolution.


3.) When full attacking with both claws, are both considered primary attacks, since they are the same attack, or does one take -5?
Natural weapons of the same type almost always use the same BAB. Look at a hydra's statblock. Its bites are all done at the same BAB no matter how many heads it has, and all of them are considered primary.


Some things that I forgot:

4.)Can I TWF with claws?
You cannot TWF with natural weapons, although the Tiger Claw maneuver Wolf Fang Strike seems to allow a strike with two claw attacks as a standard action. It's a reasonable houserule if not RAW.

By default, you do strike with BOTH your claws if you do a full attack---and since they're a natural weapon, you don't get the TWF penalty. A better deal altogether. (See the Razorclaw entry in RoE)


5.)Other than Amulet of Mighty Fists and permanent Magic Fang, is there a way for me to get enhancement bonuses on my attacks?

Kensai.


6.) I vaguely recall a ruling that a creature can bypass any DR that it possesses, is this a rule?

This applies only for DR/magic.


Some monsters are vulnerable to certain materials, such as alchemical silver, adamantine, or cold iron. Attacks from weapons that are not made of the correct material have their damage reduced, even if the weapon has an enhancement bonus.

Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

The same clause does not appear in the DR/materials text.



Also, does it work with Shifter Defense (DR 2/silver while shifting)?
Definitely not. See above.

[SurlySeraph]

On the build itself: I'd do something more like Fighter 2/ Warblade 2/ Warshaper 2/ Bloodclaw Master 1/ Warshaper +2/ BcM +4/ Warblade +X. That way you take your non-initiating levels earlier so you can take higher-level maneuvers at your initiator levels (though taking a BcM level in between the Warshaper levels gives you another Shifting use and means you don't have to spend 4 levels using the same maneuvers).

Why'd you settle on Longstride? I'd go with Longtooth for another attack, and take Multiattack instead of TWF. And I'd probably drop the Weapon Focus and Spec and Shifter Agility for Improved Natural Attack, Longtooth Elite, and Ragewild Fighting

[T.G. Oskar]

Other than requesting general advice on this build (as my 1st non-spellcaster) I have a few questions.

1.) Is there a single feat that adds the ability to use shifting an additional time, rather than another effect + 1/2 of a shifting use?

Nope. You get one extra round of shifting per feat and an extra daily use of shifting every two feats. No less, no more. So you either load up on Shifter feats or mistreat your shifting ability. Though Bloodclaw Master's shifting ability counts as if you were taking shifter feats, so you get three more rounds of shifting and one extra daily use.


2.)Can I get iterative attacks with my claws if I use them as unarmed attacks, rather than natural attacks?

For instance, can I take Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Stike to get attacks based on my BAB, and still have them count as claws for feats and class features? (If so, I'll be replacing weapon focus and spec)

Nope, unless you have the Rapidstrike feat, and that only works for a very specific subset of creatures. Unless you're an Aberration (Elan! And not OOTS' Elan, mind you...), Dragon, or something similar, you can't get Rapidstrike, which is the only way to get iteratives to count for your natural attacks (and only to your primary).


3.) When full attacking with both claws, are both considered primary attacks, since they are the same attack, or does one take -5?

Surely this was answered, but no penalties if they're your primary natural weapons.


4.)Can I TWF with claws?

Yes and no. You can't use both claws as a method to TWF. You *might* use a manufactured weapon and a claw, but then again you can already do that without the need to get TWF, and Multiattack deals with reducing the penalties anyways, so it's probable that the "yes" also counts as a "no".


5.)Other than Amulet of Mighty Fists and permanent Magic Fang, is there a way for me to get enhancement bonuses on my attacks?

As mentioned, Kensai. There's also Necklace of Natural Attacks, on Savage Species, which costs 600 and allows you to add whatever magic enhancement you like, even Throwing and Returning (so you get flying claw attacks!).

As for the sixth...while what Aslan says is correct, usually you can use as a rule of thumb the idea that having DR of a specific type counts to bypass. The most important thing is that: if the DR cannot be bypassed OR can be bypassed by a type of material, the creature does not gain the ability to bypass its own DR. Thus, a Shifter cannot bypass DR X/silver, but someone with DR X/magic can bypass its own DR, as well as DR X/epic. Most creatures with DR X/alignment also mention that their weapons count as magic and as their own alignment for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, which serves as the source of the confusion.

[Elric VIII]

Thank you for the thorough answers Aslan and Oskar.

Seraph, that is actually a better arrangement, I'm not too used to stacking classes so that IL is optimized. Thanks.

As for my longstrider choice, I was thinking that since it allowed me to get Shifter Agility to help with tumbling/Sudden Leap it would be a good choice.


Most of my issues have been resolved, except for the problem of attaining iterative attacks. Assuming I go for multiattack and Longtooth, that's 3 attacks on a full, is that going to leave me weak in the later levels or is it enough?

One more thing that has crossed my mind, does the shifting ability of the Bloodclaw master grant me the extra bonuses that I get from my racial shifting, since it is an ability of the same name?

[comicshorse]

5.)Other than Amulet of Mighty Fists and permanent Magic Fang, is there a way for me to get enhancement bonuses on my attacks?





I think that Beast CLaws ( Savage Species p49) might work for this, just for your claws though

[Elric VIII]

I think that Beast CLaws ( Savage Species p49) might work for this, just for your claws though

Well, my DM is wary about SS, but for a rather innocuous and niche piece of equipment I doubt there will be an issue, this is a good suggestion.

[comicshorse]

You cannot TWF with natural weapons,


You sure about that because I'm looking at the Player's Guide and it doesn't say anything about that. I'm not being sarcastic this is a genuine query if there has been a rules revision to exclude natural weapons I want to know

[Darrin]

You sure about that because I'm looking at the Player's Guide and it doesn't say anything about that. I'm not being sarcastic this is a genuine query if there has been a rules revision to exclude natural weapons I want to know

The rules for natural weapons are spread all over the place, they aren't entirely clear, and contradict each other when you start bringing in things like Unarmed Strikes and Off-Hand Attacks.

The general rule is natural weapons cannot be used as an off-hand attack. However, many designers aren't clear on the rules for unarmed/natural/off-hand attacks, and have mucked things up considerably by coming up with confusing items/abilities that make some inexplicable assumptions. The Skarn spine attack is the only example I can think of at the moment, but I'm sure there are others.

Natural weapons can only attack once per round, unless whatever ability/effect gave you the natural attack says otherwise. Natural weapons can either be a primary attack or a secondary attack. If it's not a primary attack, it can be added after a full iterative attack as a secondary attack with a -5 penalty. Any natural weapon that is not being used as a primary attack can be used as a secondary attack (this was clarified in the Rules Compendium). If that limb is currently wielding a manufactured weapon, the general consensus (based on stat blocks for lizardmen and other humanoid monsters with claw attacks) is it's not available to attack as a natural attack, but there is no explicit rule that says this. In fact, the SRD/Rules Compendium says manufactured weapons don't interfere with natural attacks in any way (other than the -5 penalty for being secondary).

The Razorclaw Shifter ability and the Shifting (Su) ability of the Bloodclaw Master have a couple exceptions to the general rule:

1) You can make two claw attacks as your primary attack. This is common with a lot of creatures with two claw attacks. The creature's stat block trumps the general rules, or whatever gave you the claw attack (spell, power, soulmeld, magic item, etc.) should explicitly say which attacks can be used as the primary. If you have any other natural weapons, they can still be added to your full attack as secondary attacks with a -5 penalty.

2) One claw can be used as an off-hand attack per the TWF rules if the creature is wielding a manufactured weapon in his other hand. This allows that claw to attack more than once if you normally have more than one off-hand attack (Imp. TWF, Gr. TWF, etc.). In this case, you incur the normal penalties for TWF rather than the secondary attack penalty. Natural weapons are always considered light weapons (this is in the Power Attack feat, where unarmed strikes and natural attacks are given an exception to use Power Attack as one-handed weapons).

Note: Almost all off-hand attacks and all secondary natural attacks get 1/2 your strength bonus on damage. There are at least two exceptions: monks get full strength bonus on all their unarmed strikes, regardless of whether they are primary or off-hand, and Claws of the Beast (Ex) from the 1st level of Bloodclaw Master allows you to get your full strength bonus on off-hand attacks made with Tiger Claw weapons (including unarmed strikes and claws) and daggers.

If you're combining Bloodclaw Master with Shadow Blade (add Dex bonus to damage), then there are two weapons that qualify for both Shadow Blade and Claws of the Beast: unarmed strikes (but not claws) and daggers.

Actually, there's a third, but you'll probably get a few books thrown at you:

Take a pair of unawakened/lesser Sunswords (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft p. 210). Add the Morphing property (+1 enhancement, MIC p. 39) and turn them both into greataxes (bastard swords are considered a two-handed martial weapon).

You can now wield one greataxe in each hand. They count as Tiger Claw weapons (greataxe), they count for Shadow Blade (treated as shortswords), your off-hand greataxe is light (treated as a shortsword), and you get full strength damage on both (Claws of the Beast).

Now add Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC p. 139) and the Sizing property (+5000 x2, MIC p. 43), and the greataxe damage goes up to 3d6. Add the Heavy weapon property (+7000 x2, Magic of Faerun p. 179) plus Exotic Weapon Proficiency (heavy bastard sword), and the damage goes 1d12 -> 2d8 -> 3d8. Add enlarge person or expansion to go up to 4d8. Augmented expansion goes up to 6d8.

[Elric VIII]

Alright, so no TWF with claws, got it. Unarmed strikes say that they may be made with any body part (punch, kick, and headbut are PHB examples) so with multiattack can I make unarmed strikes as my main attack, then use claws as a secondary natural attack, rather than using the claws as my main attack with unarmed strike?



Take a pair of unawakened/lesser Sunswords (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft p. 210). Add the Morphing property (+1 enhancement, MIC p. 39) and turn them both into greataxes (bastard swords are considered a two-handed martial weapon).

You can now wield one greataxe in each hand. They count as Tiger Claw weapons (greataxe), they count for Shadow Blade (treated as shortswords), your off-hand greataxe is light (treated as a shortsword), and you get full strength damage on both (Claws of the Beast).

Now add Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC p. 139) and the Sizing property (+5000 x2, MIC p. 43), and the greataxe damage goes up to 3d6. Add the Heavy weapon property (+7000 x2, Magic of Faerun p. 179) plus Exotic Weapon Proficiency (heavy bastard sword), and the damage goes 1d12 -> 2d8 -> 3d8. Add enlarge person or expansion to go up to 4d8. Augmented expansion goes up to 6d8.

hmmm... I should run this by my DM, it seems reasonable. :smallconfused:

[pilvento]

Bloodclaw master? PrC from where?

[Elric VIII]

Bloodclaw master? PrC from where?

Tome of Battle, it's a Tiger Claw Discipline focused class that gives an ability somewhere between wildshape/rage (the ability is almost exactly like Razorclaw Shifter).

[Darrin]

Alright, so no TWF with claws, got it.


Normally, no, but both the Shifter Razerclaws and Bloodclaw Master Shifting allow one claw to be used as an off-hand weapon with TWF.

Note: If you're using ToB, the Wolf Fang Strike maneuver allows something similar to a TWF attack as a standard action. The penalties are -2 on both attacks, but this *supercedes* the normal TWF penalties. So you can use this maneuver *without* taking the TWF feat, and still get the benefits of attacking with TWF. By RAW both attacks are -2, regardless of what the normal penalties would be... oddly enough, the penalty is the same if your off-hand weapon isn't light (one-handed or even two-handed).



Unarmed strikes say that they may be made with any body part (punch, kick, and headbut are PHB examples) so with multiattack can I make unarmed strikes as my main attack, then use claws as a secondary natural attack, rather than using the claws as my main attack with unarmed strike?


Yes. The general rule is you get all your iterative attacks first, and these can all be unarmed strikes. All of your natural weapons can be added after that as secondary attacks with a -5 penalty. Multiattack reduces this penalty to -2, and Improved Multiattack reduces it to zero.

So you can add TWF to your iterative attacks (-2) and the Snap Kick feat (can't be a claw, must be unarmed strike, another -2 to all attacks, -4 total). Then you add all your secondary natural attacks (-5 and -4, so -9 total).

Do not bring up Flurry of Blows or I will *hurt* you. [/snide smirk]

[pilvento]

Dam, im playing a werewolf/barbarian/fist of the forest/warshaper and i still have about 5 lvls and no idea of how to fill them. but our house rule is no ToB at least in long campaings.

[Elric VIII]

Dam, im playing a werewolf/barbarian/fist of the forest/warshaper and i still have about 5 lvls and no idea of how to fill them. but our house rule is no ToB at least in long campaings.

There's a PrC in Races of Eberron called Reachrunner, it basically advances your shifter-ness. Although you have to be a Shifter as a prereq, you might want to run it by your DM anyway, since Shifters do have Lycanthrope heritage. Only one ability references your actual shifting (+2 to con-basted checks while shifting) and that could easily work while transformed without being unreasonable.


So you can add TWF to your iterative attacks (-2) and the Snap Kick feat (can't be a claw, must be unarmed strike, another -2 to all attacks, -4 total). Then you add all your secondary natural attacks (-5 and -4, so -9 total).

Do not bring up Flurry of Blows or I will *hurt* you. [/snide smirk]

I was just thinking Improved Unarmed and Superior + Multiattack means iterative + claws, maybe picking up snap kick with the Warblade bonus feat. Although, that combination you've proposed does mean some serious facebeating, I'm going to keep it simple-ish. Thanks, though.

Also... Flurry of Blows [/even more snide smirk]

[poignant123]

Dam, im playing a werewolf/barbarian/fist of the forest/warshaper and i still have about 5 lvls and no idea of how to fill them. but our house rule is no ToB at least in long campaings.

Nature's Warrior?

[SurlySeraph]

@^: By RAW, Nature's Warrior only works if you use Wildshape. Houseruling otherwise would certainly work, though.

Weretouched Master is another Shifter PrC that could be adapted for lycanthropes. Thayan Gladiator is a good PrC for characters with natural weapons, and if you're evil Soul Eater is pretty awesome.

[Greenish]

Take a pair of unawakened/lesser Sunswords (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft p. 210). Add the Morphing property (+1 enhancement, MIC p. 39) and turn them both into greataxes (bastard swords are considered a two-handed martial weapon).

You can now wield one greataxe in each hand. They count as Tiger Claw weapons (greataxe), they count for Shadow Blade (treated as shortswords), your off-hand greataxe is light (treated as a shortsword), and you get full strength damage on both (Claws of the Beast).I seem to recall that Bloodclaw Master specifically names only the one-handed TC weapons as working with the class features.


I was just thinking Improved Unarmed and Superior + Multiattack means iterative + claws, maybe picking up snap kick with the Warblade bonus feat.Beast Strike feat from Dragon Magazine #355 allows you to add your claw damage to your unarmed strikes.

[Necroticplague]

Maybe you should try beast strike. That's how I get around natural attack rules for a good amount. While I may not get iterative attacks with claws, I do get itterative attacks with unarmed attacks that do claw damage (and I can still use the claws on the same turn). For more fun, combine with improved rapidstrike. Full iteratives on a pair of claws, then full iteratives from unarmed. All of this has steep to-hit penalties, but you're compensating quality for quantity here (multiattack and improved multiattack help reduce this). Combine with template or race that causes you to deal damage every time you hit with a natural weapon or unarmed strike (Gelatinous is good, as is being a half-fire elemental, or being ghastly). Insectile would give you 4 more arms, but no extra attacks, so you could use those arms the quad weild something while you tear others to shreads with your claws.

edit: d'oh ninja'd

[Elric VIII]

Beast Strike seems perfect, does that mean unarmed strikes trigger rend?

[Necroticplague]

Beast Strike seems perfect, does that mean unarmed strikes trigger rend?

No, I've made good arguments for it, but the attacks from Beast Strike aren't claw attacks, their unarmed attacks that use your claw damage.

[Elric VIII]

No, I've made good arguments for it, but the attacks from Beast Strike aren't claw attacks, their unarmed attacks that use your claw damage.

Yes, I understand the way the game works. By that I mean that the simple logic of I punch you, and also happen to have claws on my hand =/= I claw you. Either way, that feat is going to be useful and I thank you for it.

[HunterOfJello]

i've wanted to try out a build like this for a while now. I was thinking of making a Feral Changeling though. It would be +1 LA, but qualify for all the same stuff and be signifigantly stronger. I love the fluff behind Shifters, but absolutely hate the crunch they were given.

[Darrin]

I seem to recall that Bloodclaw Master specifically names only the one-handed TC weapons as working with the class features.


Huh... sorry, I missed that. Yes, Claws of the Beast names each weapon individually, and greataxe is not included. So, only 1/2 Str bonus on your offhand greataxe. However, Superior Two-Weapon Fighting refers to Tiger Claw weapons without specifically identifying them, so that should still work by RAW.

[AslanCross]

You sure about that because I'm looking at the Player's Guide and it doesn't say anything about that. I'm not being sarcastic this is a genuine query if there has been a rules revision to exclude natural weapons I want to know

Darrin has already answered sufficiently, but you might recall that the Player's Handbook says very little about natural weapons, and as Darrin has mentioned, the rules are all over the place: You see them in feats, in the Monk's unarmed strike entry, and in the spells section, but none of them are addressed in the TWF section.

Monsters with multiple natural weapons can use their natural weapons in the same attack routine by default and do not normally require special conditions to use them. A creature that uses a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon at the same time typically has the natural weapon bumped down to "secondary" status, penalizing it -5 to attack (-2 with Multiattack) and getting only half its strength bonus. Thus, it technically is possible to use a longsword and a claw, or even a greatsword and a bite in the same full attack routine, but these do not use the mechanics for TWF that appear in the PHB's combat section.

[Elric VIII]

Just one last question, do the various effects of the Bloodclaw Master work with claws? Most of them say "when wielding two Tiger Claw weapons," since they obviously don't qualify for TWF on their own, does that mean that they don't qualift for the various abilities?

For instance, how does fighting with unarmed strikes and claws as a secondary natural attack work with the Pouncing Strike ability or with the Wolf Fang Strike (both of which specifically mention two weapons)?

[Greenish]

Huh... sorry, I missed that.I ran across it looking to cook up something with greataxe/unarmed strike TWFer. Damn overspecific rules…

Just one last question, do the various effects of the Bloodclaw Master work with claws? Most of them say "when wielding two Tiger Claw weapons," since they obviously don't qualify for TWF on their own, does that mean that they don't qualift for the various abilities?

For instance, how does fighting with unarmed strikes and claws as a secondary natural attack work with the Pouncing Strike ability or with the Wolf Fang Strike (both of which specifically mention two weapons)?Pouncing Strike just allows you to Pounce, so no problems there. WFS allows you to attack with two weapons, so you could use both of your claws or a claw and an unarmed strike.

[Elric VIII]

Pouncing Strike just allows you to Pounce, so no problems there. WFS allows you to attack with two weapons, so you could use both of your claws or a claw and an unarmed strike.

Man, the TWF and unarmed strikes interactions are are convoluted to say the least. Thanks for the clarification.

[Darrin]

Just one last question, do the various effects of the Bloodclaw Master work with claws? Most of them say "when wielding two Tiger Claw weapons," since they obviously don't qualify for TWF on their own, does that mean that they don't qualift for the various abilities?


Claw is explicitly listed as a Tiger Claw weapon, so yes, you can use it with the Bloodclaw Master abilities.



For instance, how does fighting with unarmed strikes and claws as a secondary natural attack work with the Pouncing Strike ability or with the Wolf Fang Strike (both of which specifically mention two weapons)?

Pouncing Strike doesn't specify which weapons you can use. Also, it's only one attack per weapon, so you're not breaking any of the natural weapon rules, either. So, for Pouncing Strike, pick two weapons you're currently "wielding". Your unarmed strikes, or claws, or whatever manufactured weapons you have in hand can be used. Actually, for Pouncing Strike, they don't have to be Tiger Claw weapons.

Wolf Fang Strike doesn't require Tiger Claw weapons either, but it's a little more difficult to parse, because it's not clear if it's using the TWF rules for off-hand weapons. It explicitly mentions you can use an unarmed strike as an off-hand weapon, but it's optional. The rest of the maneuver basically says, "If you are wielding two weapons, you can attack with both of them on a single opponent." It doesn't actually say you're using the TWF rules or that one of those weapons is an off-hand attack. Any two weapons you're wielding (and natural weapons would count) are legal for Wolf Fang Strike.

The only problem you might run into with Wolf Fang Strike is if your DM interprets that one of your attacks must be an off-hand attack. Claws you get from Razorclaws or from Bloodclaw Master are explicitly allowed to be used as off-hand attacks. If you had claws from some other source (racial ability, spell, soulmeld), then it might not be allowed, since none of those don't explicitly state they can be used as an off-hand weapon.

The important thing to remember with trying to adjudicate TWF and extra attacks is because of the tremendous feat investment for TWF and because of the way penalties stack up, it's pretty much impossible to "break the game" this way. If you want to propose a house rule that all unarmed strikes, natural weapons, claw attacks, and so forth can be exchanged with each other for TWF, Snap Kick, and Flurry of Blows, you'll actually make the game simpler and quicker, and save yourself a lot of headaches. Arguing over these little nitpicky TWF rules adds absolutely nothing positive to the game.

[Elric VIII]

The important thing to remember with trying to adjudicate TWF and extra attacks is because of the tremendous feat investment for TWF and because of the way penalties stack up, it's pretty much impossible to "break the game" this way. If you want to propose a house rule that all unarmed strikes, natural weapons, claw attacks, and so forth can be exchanged with each other for TWF, Snap Kick, and Flurry of Blows, you'll actually make the game simpler and quicker, and save yourself a lot of headaches. Arguing over these little nitpicky TWF rules adds absolutely nothing positive to the game.

I usually stay away from TWF for this exact reason. I'm just worried that I'll be useless at later levels. The nitpicky part is mostly my tendancy to try to make things work without house rules.


I think I now see where my problem in understanding was, so thanks for that.