To kill a mocking bard. [3.5]

[Godskook]

Ok, so I built an optimized level 3 dragonfire bard named Isaiah to fight my party, thinking that he'd be a semi-interesting fight, and then die quickly. Afterwhich, he'd provide the characters with a bit of wealth in the form of a bounty on the Bard's head. The party neither killed nor captured him. Instead letting him go after taking most of his cash on hand. :smallannoyed:.....:smallamused: Ok, I can work with that. Now he meets up with his brothers and plot revenge, to explicitly rob these uncannily equipped PCs of their gear and leave them stranded and penniless(Problem, I didn't give them much conviction on this). And so the PCs diplomance their way through it, and convince Isaiah the Bard to join them on their quest to slay a dragon. I rolled with it cause the next fight was to be with a pair of goblin druids who were more than capable of spreading the AoE around anyway.

So now the party has a bard providing +2d6 fire damage 2/day(and 1d6 1/day) to their attacks, which is nearly doubling their damage at this level, and to boot, they have two really good archers as back-up. The aforementioned druids held their own, but against a more 'normal' encounter of anything in their CR range, it'd be painfully one-sided, especially if the party has the drop.

Options include:
1.Having the bard turn on them later. - I don't like it, cause the way the RP has gone so far, it seems forced.

2.Execute the bard and/or his brothers as a combat start. - *Definitely* forced, and right now, the party has the initiative, since the goblins don't currently know they're coming.

3.Switch to a [fire] dragon. - This is completely behind the curtain, but is unsatisfactory to change the landscape like that the moment the PCs get clever.

That leaves, near as I can tell:
4.Tucker's Kobolds, of sorts. - I could kill or separate the Bard from the party more easily in this situation, or at least burn through his bardic music fast enough to have end-of-day threats be far more imposing.

Any other suggestions or thoughts? Or maybe just similar experiences?

[woodenbandman]

Add some minions to the dragon lair and hope they don't get too clever in the next adventure.

[Godskook]

Can't you disable a bard by sundering his instrument? I'd think the tactic would work especially well if they're a vocalist.

He is a vocalist. :smallamused:


Why not let them roll through this encounter, and have the bard part ways the next time they reach a town? Distracted by some pretty npc, called away for a different plot, whatever.

This is the first dragon of the story, and it would seem wrong if he's thoroughly stomped cause of an NPC bard is providing damage support.


Or just let the players know that the npc is worth more dead than alive, and let nature run its course.

Well, his bounty was worth more alive than dead, but considering the Bard is wearing a mitrhal chain shirt, the party would be largely boosted by his utter defeat.

[Cealocanth]

Here's an idea. You have these bards that are a bit too powerful for the party to rightfully have right? Rub that power in the party's faces! Have the bards steal kills, hog the spotlight, and claim more than their share of the treasure. If the party knows what's good for them, they'll try to get rid of them. Make the bards persistent, demanding that they continue with the party. Eventually the party will have to kill the bards if they want their spotlight back.

To make them even more annoying, demand that the bards take a share of the XP for encounters.

[Shadowleaf]

Here's an idea. You have these bards that are a bit too powerful for the party to rightfully have right? Rub that power in the party's faces! Have the bards steal kills, hog the spotlight, and claim more than their share of the treasure. If the party knows what's good for them, they'll try to get rid of them. Make the bards persistent, demanding that they continue with the party. Eventually the party will have to kill the bards if they want their spotlight back.

To make them even more annoying, demand that the bards take a share of the XP for encounters.I strongly suggest not doing this. This will probably piss off your players out of character, and possibly railroad them into making their characters do something they normally would not (killing a party member because of greed and pride is an evil act, no doubt).

[NichG]

Have the bard become the party's most loyal friend for the rest of the campaign, never betraying them. An NPC that the PCs care about is a treasure for the GM, not to be underestimated. The bard can bring the party adventure hooks, ask them for help, etc. If the bard stays with the party for a long time, they will even get to the point of putting themselves on the line to save him. That's valuable.

For the matter of the party being outclassed, make sure the bard advances more slowly than they do until he is helpful but not dominating. Make sure that the bard usually participates in passive fashion (i.e. giving the party buffs, rather than directly making kills).

After a few encounters, it would be reasonable for enemies of the party to start using Resist Energy (Fire) and the like, as the bard is likely to brag of his exploits, and so news will get around about his special trick. In the mean time, let the bard help the party steamroll a few of the minor encounters, but beef up the major encounters take into account the party's higher level of power (e.g. the dragon is actually a few HD older, or has a wizard minion that gives it a few buffs or something). Perhaps the BBEG sends a scout or two to remain hidden and report back on the party's tactics, and so is prepared for the fire trick.

[WarKitty]

Here's an idea. You have these bards that are a bit too powerful for the party to rightfully have right? Rub that power in the party's faces! Have the bards steal kills, hog the spotlight, and claim more than their share of the treasure. If the party knows what's good for them, they'll try to get rid of them. Make the bards persistent, demanding that they continue with the party. Eventually the party will have to kill the bards if they want their spotlight back.

To make them even more annoying, demand that the bards take a share of the XP for encounters.

What are the alignments involved? If the party is more good-aligned, have the bard commit clearly evil acts. And keep doing them. Oh, he likes the PC's, but he's still evil.

Alternately, just let the party level till he's not overpowering anymore, and jack up the encounters.

[Valameer]

Switch to a [fire] dragon. Find other ways to quietly hamstring the bard for the immediate future. Would they notice if he lost a level? Botch his save against entangle or hold person, or have him eat a well-disguised pit trap in the first round of an important encounter.

Meanwhile, work out a reason the bard can't join the party for now. Later, as they catch up to him in level, they can earn him back into the party (if they still want).

Don't kill him off though. Whether as an occasional ally/rival, or as a damsel in distress, it sounds like your players like him. Him being around when he otherwise shouldn't be (I assume the players know he wasn't meant to be an ally) will give them the feeling of making an impact in the campaign. And that's what makes a memorable game.

Edit: 'cause apparently my sentence structure really blows when I'm tired my sentence structure blows.

[Godskook]

What are the alignments involved? If the party is more good-aligned, have the bard commit clearly evil acts. And keep doing them. Oh, he likes the PC's, but he's still evil.

Alternately, just let the party level till he's not overpowering anymore, and jack up the encounters.

Party is 4(soon to be 5) level 2 players with about +16 HP, +2 BAB and +1 Saves each(This was my "new DM buffer").

Bard is level 3. His brothers are level 4 warriors.

The alignments for the bard's troupe is chaotic neutral with an evil leaning. The party is unaligned*, but prefers a generally 'good' behavior.

*They started as themselves, literally, and rather than having a discussion about "No man, you're not alignment X, you're alignment Y", I skipped alignments altogether for PCs. Nobody in-party rolled an alignment specific class, so no issues.

[whitexknight]

Have the bard become the party's most loyal friend for the rest of the campaign, never betraying them. An NPC that the PCs care about is a treasure for the GM, not to be underestimated. The bard can bring the party adventure hooks, ask them for help, etc. If the bard stays with the party for a long time, they will even get to the point of putting themselves on the line to save him. That's valuable.

For the matter of the party being outclassed, make sure the bard advances more slowly than they do until he is helpful but not dominating. Make sure that the bard usually participates in passive fashion (i.e. giving the party buffs, rather than directly making kills).

After a few encounters, it would be reasonable for enemies of the party to start using Resist Energy (Fire) and the like, as the bard is likely to brag of his exploits, and so news will get around about his special trick. In the mean time, let the bard help the party steamroll a few of the minor encounters, but beef up the major encounters take into account the party's higher level of power (e.g. the dragon is actually a few HD older, or has a wizard minion that gives it a few buffs or something). Perhaps the BBEG sends a scout or two to remain hidden and report back on the party's tactics, and so is prepared for the fire trick.

I agree this is quite an opportunity also level 2 pc classes are the same as level 4 npc classes so the warriors aren't an issue just extra combatants that will soon die off anyway as levels advance and the npc class's vulnerability shines through. The bard is only one level higher for now have him take a back seat but not be useless, level 2 passes quickly just don't level the bard till the pcs catch up

[Godskook]

also level 2 pc classes are the same as level 4 npc classes so the warriors

Actually, I find that Warriors are wholly superior to Fighters of the same CR.

[faceroll]

Bard gets greedy, grabs a bunch of loot, and takes off. Party can choose to pursue or not. In my experience, once someone or something steals from the party, the party is single minded in hunting down, slaying the offender, and retrieving the loot.

[Fizban]

On spotlight stealing: I wouldn't go that far, but they definitely shouldn't be getting a free ride. Even with the "new DM buffer", the Bard and his brothers are each at least equal to each of the PCs. Since they're not cohorts or hirelings, they get a full share of xp and treasure each, and if they stay on permanently then you should increase encounter difficulties to compensate. If the party is okay with that then cool, otherwise they'll find a way to metagame their way out of it. In character reasons can be as simple as "you're a great guy, but we're already splitting the profits pretty thin, so we'll be splitting up at the next town."

[Coidzor]

Actually, I find that Warriors are wholly superior to Fighters of the same CR.

Well, you know, it's always fun when the Warriors come out to play. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u05Qot_yh9c)

[Gabe the Bard]

Our DM sometimes lets enemy NPCs become allies if we roleplay it well enough. But it's always temporary. They never stick around past the end of the quest or the session. They have their own lives and agendas, and we're usually thankful just to have a helping hand for a short time.

[Fitz10019]

Level 2's are encountering a dragon?

[Darrin]

1.Having the bard turn on them later. - I don't like it, cause the way the RP has gone so far, it seems forced.


Use this, but you need to modify it a bit. Have the bard betray them, but against his will - such as a dominate effect, or he suddenly picks up an amulet from somewhere that another NPC can use to suggest/charm/dominate him. The PCs can turn him back to their side later - get rid of the amulet, track down the dominator, etc.

Other variations... replace the bard with a doppelganger. Then the party has to find out what happened to the real bard and rescue him.

There's also the evil twin schtick (you've already got his brothers involved... maybe one is a dead ringer?). Similar to the doppelganger. Actually, make the bard a Dvati or something similar, and it gets really interesting... can't kill the evil twin or the good one dies as well.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Level 2's are encountering a dragon?

This. I mean, what? Is it a wyrmling or something? (And even then...)

[Ormur]

How long until the party is scheduled to slay the dragon. If it's not too long you can just play along, up the CR of the encounters in the meantime to challenge them with the Bard and perhaps target him a bit more than the others in the hope that he gets killed.

If it's supposed to be a very long quest you might invent some personal reason for the Bard to leave the party. That would also allow for the possibility of him helping them later in the campaign.

[Godskook]

This. I mean, what? Is it a wyrmling or something? (And even then...)

The dragon in question was supposed to be a juvenile white dragon. And due to the bonus HP, even the party wizard could withstand soaking a full attack, barely(but won't need to, since abrupt jaunt).

[Bonecrusher Doc]

Create some family trouble between the bard and his brothers. Probably involving a woman. Or perhaps the inheritance of a powerful item from their parents. Gets ugly/dangerous real quick, with the bard asking for the PC's help against his brothers, and the PCs are forced to either choose sides or disassociate themselves from that family.

[Riva]

Maybe I'm missing something, but whats wrong with the situation? Are the players happy, enjoying the campaign? If so, just keep rocking. Its fine to keep the bards in stasis for a while, experience wise, and let the players characters grow. Theres no reason that they couldn't face off against greater opponents sooner, especially with loyal and effective aid.

This is slightly off topic but its something I've noticed among people who play D&D, the constant need to knock players down a peg, to ensure that they... I dunno. I really don't know why. Surely its more important to create a good story and good game that everyone enjoys, WBL be damned?

[Godskook]

This is slightly off topic but its something I've noticed among people who play D&D, the constant need to knock players down a peg, to ensure that they... I dunno. I really don't know why. Surely its more important to create a good story and good game that everyone enjoys, WBL be damned?

Its not about "knocking them down a peg". Its about:

1.Having combats that are more challenging than "you killed everything, good job", without getting into epic 5-hour fights. With effectively 7 party members, any 'small' task force is going to be a joke.

2.Versimilitude. The PCs have already fought several goblins, and have some idea as to how powerful these foes are. I walk a thin line if I want to achieve 'challenging' without breaking their reasonable expectations.

3.DMPCs. The Bard is my design, not theirs, and his actions are under my control. If he's carrying a majority of the weight in a fight, *THAT'S* knocking them down a peg. And yes, he and his brothers are providing a large portion of the damage output, and in fact, the 'brothers' are both directly outperforming the party's scout via rapid shot(providing 2d8+4d6[fire], while the scout gives 2d6+2d6[fire]).

And finally, if it was about "knocking them down a peg", I would've just had the bard+brothers rob them in the first place, as I had planned prior to the session. (The words "Rob PCs" is written in my "plans for session" notes explicitly)

[Naeo]

Not sure if someone's mentioned this but just incase

the bard has a bounty on his head, you could then in turn (seeing as your PCs have joined ranks with the bard) place a bounty on their heads, it's a natural progression of the story, and would probably make your PCs question why they're wanted, and turn the bard in themselves to clear their name.

it saves you from having to DM-godmode something your players were able to make happen, and makes the world seem more believable.

I've yet to DM, so all i've said is purely from a player's perspective.

[Godskook]

You've brought up a *REALLY* good train of thought there, Naeo. Playing of the fact that the Bard is a wanted man is something that's been foreshadowed already.

Although for right now, it'll be easier to send other bounty hunters after him(and thus, them) than it would be to smear the party's name. I *LIKE* it.

[Naeo]

Well the player's wouldn't get a bounty on their heads until word was passed around they're with him(or them, since you mention bard and brothers)

The other party of bounty hunters is a very good idea, and easy to pull off.

glad i could help :D

[Riva]

Godskook, the barbs in that comment weren't really aimed at you. You're looking for sensible ways to resolve a situation, and I commend you specifically for that. Other commenters in the thread got on my nerves =D

I too, like Naeo's suggestion =D Let us know how it goes Godskook.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Actually, I find that Warriors are wholly superior to Fighters of the same CR.

In terms of straight up statistics

Warrior Advantages:
6+2xcon more hit points
+2 base attack Bonus
+1 in all saves

Fighter Advantages:
2 bonus feats.

Considering this, a level 4 warrior almost no doubt trumps a level 2 fighter, even considering the difference in stat points (which aren't guaranteed to be in the fighter's favor either).

On topic... Consider fire resistant enemies, as has been stated a few times already. This doesn't just cancel out the bard's fire... It forces him to use his powers to buff the party instead, as bards generally do: And quite frankly the best kind of NPC is the kind that makes the PCs feel even more special, rather than less significant.

[Godskook]

In terms of straight up statistics

Warrior Advantages:
6+2xcon more hit points
+2 base attack Bonus
+1 in all saves

Fighter Advantages:
1 bonus feat.

Fixed that for you. Seriously, Warriors only start with 1 less feat, and lose out on 1/6 of a feat per CR. A CR 6 warrior has 5 feats, while a CR 6 fighter finally breaks ahead another feat for 7, but while the Fighter buys shock trooper so he can power attack for 6, the warrior can PA for the same amount and have as much attack bonus as the fighter started with, *WITHOUT* using shock trooper.


On topic... Consider fire resistant enemies, as has been stated a few times already. This doesn't just cancel out the bard's fire... It forces him to use his powers to buff the party instead, as bards generally do: And quite frankly the best kind of NPC is the kind that makes the PCs feel even more special, rather than less significant.

The problem wasn't how to counter this mechanically. *THAT* I can do rather easily. There's soulmelds, ToB stances, spells, and probably powers that all grant fire resistance. There's changing my dragon to red. The problem was countering it story-wise, without ripping their victory from them unduly.

Basically, I wanted to do it with *style*.

[Tvtyrant]

Have you considered having the local powers send guards to arrest him outright? Then if the party defends the Bard they get a bounty on their heads and no longer look very Lawful. Even better if they decide to turn the Bard in and the Bard slaughters the guards, so they feel obliged to go after him/

[Godskook]

Have you considered having the local powers send guards to arrest him outright? Then if the party defends the Bard they get a bounty on their heads and no longer look very Lawful. Even better if they decide to turn the Bard in and the Bard slaughters the guards, so they feel obliged to go after him/

Yeah, towards the end of the last page, actually, but more "Bounty Hunters" than "Town Guards". Still, same basic concept, and I try not to plot any farther than the "X factor", so we'll see what the PCs do with it.


You've brought up a *REALLY* good train of thought there, Naeo. Playing of the fact that the Bard is a wanted man is something that's been foreshadowed already.

Although for right now, it'll be easier to send other bounty hunters after him(and thus, them) than it would be to smear the party's name. I *LIKE* it.