[4E] Help with Ancient Greek pregens

[Kiero]

This is a follow-on from this thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=548243) establishing the possiblities a little. I've got a bit of a premise in mind, and want to see how the characters might turn out. If you don't want to read all the blurb, jump to the last paragraph for a summary of the task.

The setting is Massilia, 470BC. PCs are the defenders of their poleis, whether their community wants them to look out for them or not. There's a clashing of Greek and Celtic cultures here, with possibly more distant influences from Iberian, Italic, Carthaginian and Germanic sources too.

Note this is not mythic at all, but semi-historical/realistic. The only place Homeric epics have is in the dreams of the characters, not in the "reality" of what's going on. Only semi because we're retaining the conceits of the mechanics in a lot of places (like healing surges), but the critical thing is no magic. That means no Arcane, Divine or Psionic power sources, no magic items.

I'm presently thinking Martial-only, I'm struggling a little to justify any of the Primal classes (Druid is definitely out, what with the shape-shifting, though it might work as antagonist material) as PCs. Their powers are fantastical enough, along with their durability and recovery. If anyone has any thoughts on how the other Primal classes might work as PC material without getting too out-there, I'd be glad to hear it. Fighters get a bonus skill slot, so they have the same number as Rangers, Rogues and Warlords.

It's also human-only, with cultures distinguished through Backgrounds. I've never been a fan of the "use non-humans to do alternative cultures" idea. In two minds as to whether to use the General backgrounds, or just come up with a template for everyone to make up their own. Or to make up a set of culture backgrounds of my own for people to choose from.

I'm thinking 4th level to allow some distinction between those who might even have the same class.

Equipment is a shorter list than normal, rather than just reskinning the whole D&D kitbag as other things. I'm kind of curious to see what happens when you don't have all the "optimal" choices in front of you.

Armour is the following: leather (representing linothorax, leather cuirass or other light armours), hide (mainly for barbarians who can't afford metal armour), chain (representing both Celtic mail and Persian lamellar) and scale (representing the heavy hoplite panoply and Scythian-style scale-on-leather). The omission of plate is entirely intentional.

Weapons are thus: battleaxe, bola, broadsword (Celtic sword) club, dagger, falchion (rhomphaia), greataxe, handaxe, javelin, khopesh (kopis/machiara), longbow (composite bow), mace, maul, net, scimitar, scythe, shortsword (xiphos), shortbow, sickle, sling, spear, trident. The omission of a lot of the heavier weapons (and most of the swords) is again entirely intentional.

One last thing, two-weapon fighting is a tricky one, because in the main the shield was what you had in your off hand. Any thoughts on how to deal with this one? Even the fast-moving skirmisher types would have tended to use a small shield, rather than a second weapon.

Considering giving people a bonus Feat, such as giving Teamwork Defense to Guardian Fighters and Tactical Warlords.

In a much briefer nutshell for those who don't want to read all that, 4th level, human-only, Martial-only, usual 22-point buy, no magic items. Fighters have 4, rather than 3 base trained skills. Archetypal as well as interesting/unusual builds welcome.

[incandescent]

I'm not very keen on Grecian mythology, but I'll try to help in mechanical areas.

First thing that came to mind while reading: with the omission of magic items, will you be using the inherent bonuses option from DMG 2 to compensate for the party's lack of attack/defense booster at later levels? or manually lowering the defenses of higher level monsters? After a certain point, due to the magic pluses being built into the system, it becomes really difficult to land a hit without a +x weapon.

Also from DMG 2, you could use the system of granting "boons" to players in addition to granting additional feats to make them feel even more diverse.

As for warriors using shields, maybe you could introduce the spiked shield as a possible fix for any two blade rangers that spring up. They'll still have two weapons, but the other will be wrapped into a shield.

[Tengu_temp]

I think you've got most of it covered. If you don't like the idea of dual-wielding, just don't allow it - no double weapon fighters and all rangers are archers. How are you going to make up for no magic items? Inherent bonuses?

[Saint GoH]

Sounds interesting to say the least, though if it's only historical I don't suppose they will be running into many "monsters" as much as other humans who are all using the same crappy gear.

Perhaps do an homage to the Persian War and the following Peloponnesian War?
Have the PC's rally followers from other πολις, a little bit of political socioeconomic roleplay factors. Then they defend against the Persian Horde, only to have their "allies" turn on them, claiming victory was by their hand alone.

Bam, civil unrest.

Maybe not immediate "DECLARE WAR" but perhaps have a few sessions of uncertainty, where the πολις are still communicating but are on uneven ground, more political terror ensues as assassins strike out at the PC's. War breaks out. Barbarians from the West ride in naked on horseback, their heathen shaman shifting into primal forms. Suddenly the PC's have a War on two fronts, the Celts and the Goths pillaging their farmlands, and their own Grecian "allies" threatening their πολις .

This sort of stuff may interest me greatly :smallbiggrin:

[Kiero]

I'm not very keen on Grecian mythology, but I'll try to help in mechanical areas.

First thing that came to mind while reading: with the omission of magic items, will you be using the inherent bonuses option from DMG 2 to compensate for the party's lack of attack/defense booster at later levels? or manually lowering the defenses of higher level monsters? After a certain point, due to the magic pluses being built into the system, it becomes really difficult to land a hit without a +x weapon.

I'm only really envisaging levels 4-8, but yes, inherent bonuses.


Also from DMG 2, you could use the system of granting "boons" to players in addition to granting additional feats to make them feel even more diverse.

I've started thinking along those lines for stuff like hoplites having Teamwork Defense and/or Formation Fighting. Someone probably wouldn't shell out for it normally, but it's the sort of thing that would encourage that sort of fighting together.


As for warriors using shields, maybe you could introduce the spiked shield as a possible fix for any two blade rangers that spring up. They'll still have two weapons, but the other will be wrapped into a shield.

No spiked shields, ever.

But there must be an easy fix for allowing Marauder Rangers to have a small shield, rather than a second weapon? That would fit the notions of the heavier class of skirmisher, peltast/euzonoi types.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/0003cimbri.jpg


I think you've got most of it covered. If you don't like the idea of dual-wielding, just don't allow it - no double weapon fighters and all rangers are archers.

There's no double-weapons regardless, because they didn't exist (and they're really, really stupid).

But I think Ranger works for skirmishers beyond archers/slingers. A dude with a bundle of javelins is likely to have a small shield and possibly a sword as well. They're still mobile like Rangers, but use a shield.


How are you going to make up for no magic items? Inherent bonuses?

Yep, as above if it gets that far, inherent bonuses. I don't know if this would run longer than a half-dozen sessions, thus my focus around levels 4-8.


Sounds interesting to say the least, though if it's only historical I don't suppose they will be running into many "monsters" as much as other humans who are all using the same crappy gear.

Mostly other humans, large animals worshipped as "gods", the odd "banned" PC class as antagonist material. A barbarian shaman with a collection of animal followers could be a tough opponent when you don't have wizards and clerics on your side.


Perhaps do an homage to the Persian War and the following Peloponnesian War?
Have the PC's rally followers from other πολις, a little bit of political socioeconomic roleplay factors. Then they defend against the Persian Horde, only to have their "allies" turn on them, claiming victory was by their hand alone.

Bam, civil unrest.

Maybe not immediate "DECLARE WAR" but perhaps have a few sessions of uncertainty, where the πολις are still communicating but are on uneven ground, more political terror ensues as assassins strike out at the PC's. War breaks out. Barbarians from the West ride in naked on horseback, their heathen shaman shifting into primal forms. Suddenly the PC's have a War on two fronts, the Celts and the Goths pillaging their farmlands, and their own Grecian "allies" threatening their πολις .

This sort of stuff may interest me greatly :smallbiggrin:

Which reminds me, is there much in 4E for cavalry? I don't remember now how it handles mounted combat.

[Salbazier]

What's the matter with spiked shield?

Just let the melee ranger carry a shield and use their powers with one weapon. Limit it to light shields and perhaps tokk away that Toughness feat since they now have more defense.

[AtlanteanTroll]

What's the matter with spiked shield?

Not practical in an IRL "historic" Campaign. As in, they didn't exist. Certainly not in the Time Period layed out.

[Kiero]

Thought I'd get the boringly obvious one out of the way: the hoplite Guardian Fighter:



level 4
Human, Fighter
Build: Guardian Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent
Background: Geography - Forest (Perception class skill)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 19, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10.


AC: 21 Fort: 19 Reflex: 17 Will: 15
HP: 47 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 11

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +9, Intimidate +7, Athletics +9, Perception +9, Endurance +7

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Arcana +1, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +4, History +1, Insight +4, Nature +4, Religion +1, Stealth +2, Streetwise +2, Thievery +2

FEATS
Human: Shield Push
Level 1: Weapon Expertise (Spear)
Level 2: Shield Defense
Feat User Choice: Teamwork Defense
Level 4: Fighter Weapon Specialization

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Tide of Iron
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter at-will 1: Weapon Master's Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Shield Bash
Fighter daily 1: Press of Steel
Fighter utility 2: Shielded Sides
Fighter encounter 3: Parry and Riposte

ITEMS
Hoplite panoply (Scale Armor), Heavy Shield, Spear, Short sword


And one of several Warlords I can think of, the hoplite leader:


level 4
Human, Warlord
Build: Tactical Warlord
Warlord: Battlefront Leader
Commanding Presence: Tactical Presence
Background: Occupation - Military (+2 to Endurance)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 19, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 14.


AC: 21 Fort: 18 Reflex: 17 Will: 16
HP: 46 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 11

TRAINED SKILLS
History +9, Diplomacy +9, Heal +6, Athletics +9, Endurance +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics, Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Dungeoneering +1, Insight +1, Intimidate +4, Nature +1, Perception +1, Religion +4, Stealth, Streetwise +4, Thievery

FEATS
Human: Armored Warlord
Feat User Choice: Teamwork Defense
Level 1: Weapon Expertise (Spear)
Level 2: Toughness
Level 4: Lend Might

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Commander's Strike
Warlord at-will 1: Intuitive Strike
Warlord at-will 1: Direct the Strike
Warlord encounter 1: Warlord's Favor
Warlord daily 1: Lead the Attack
Warlord utility 2: Cunning Adjustment
Warlord encounter 3: Devastating Offensive

ITEMS
Hoplite panoply (Scale Armor), Heavy Shield, Spear, Short sword

[Excession]

Sure, spiked shields didn't exist, but is hitting people with your shield still reasonable? Maybe replace the spiked shield with this:


Bashing Shield (maybe it has a better historic name?)
Superior one-handed melee weapon
Cost: 10 gp
Damage: 1d6
Proficient: +2
Range: -
Weight: 7 lb

Properties: Off-hand
Group: Mace

Then replace Two-Blade Fighting Style with a fighting style that gives proficiency with light shields and the above Bashing Shield. You gain a little in defence and lose a little on offence, but it'll be fairly close. A disadvantage will having your main and off-hand weapon belonging to different groups for the purposes of weapon focus and expertise.

Below is a ranger built with that option. He also has the option of attacking from range with javelin via Throw and Stab. Our hero runs screaming toward a group of enemies. He hurls a javelin at the meat shield in the front rank, pushing him out of the way (Staggering Stike) then continues his rush into the back rank, slamming his shield into the caster's face, before drawing his mace to finish the demon-worshipper off.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 4
Human, Ranger
Build: Shield Ranger
Fighting Style: Shield Fighting Style
Ranger: Prime Shot

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 19, Con 11, Dex 17, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.


AC: 20 Fort: 19 Reflex: 18 Will: 15
HP: 43 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 10

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +6, Nature +8, Athletics +10, Heal +8, Perception +8, Stealth +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +2, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +3, History +2, Insight +3, Intimidate +1, Religion +2, Streetwise +1, Thievery +4

FEATS
Human: Weapon Focus (Mace)
Level 1: Staggering Strike
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Mace)
Level 4: Quick Draw

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Twin Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Circling Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Throw and Stab
Ranger encounter 1: Off-Hand Strike
Ranger daily 1: Jaws of the Wolf
Ranger utility 2: Invigorating Stride
Ranger encounter 3: Disruptive Strike

ITEMS
Mace, Spiked shield, Hide Armor, Javelin (6), Adventurer's Kit
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


In regards to mounted combat, check the errata for the latest rules, they fixed them a while back. The mounts themselves are mostly in the Adventurer's Vault, many could just be renamed to differently bred and armoured horses. PCs can take "Mounted Combat" feat which gives them access to the special abilities of their mounts, such as bonus damage when charging or the "Trample" attack of the Warhorse for example.

[Shadow_Elf]

In order for more variety, you might consider allowing the following classes: Barbarian, Thief, Knight, Slayer, Archer, Scout, Cavalier and Monk. The Cavalier class from Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms is based around mounted combat in part, so maybe if someone wants to be a mounted warrior you could work from that?

[Dimers]

No magic weapons means no returning weapons, which will make the rogue class a little less attractive. Just something your players should be aware of.

If you want to offer your players a wider range of starting options, goliath is 100% refluffable as a human with gigantism. And most bard powers make about as much sense as warlord powers do, focused on morale debuffing instead of morale buffing. You might offer the bard class, restricted to weapon powers.

Can't help with pregen -- I don't know much about historical Greek life.

[Steamsaint]

Just a thought on the shield-as-a-weapon thing, this may not be a legit historical source as such but didn't the Spartans in 300 sharpen the edges of their shield and use that as a weapon?

I realise entirely that you're going for the historical angle, but isn't D&D is also about epic combat and well... I dunno. Just a thought, again.

[J.Gellert]

I can't speak for 4E; but I have this general idea on how to handle things like historicity of weapons and fighting style. When it comes to PCs, they are supposed to be unique, so I allow anything.

You just don't give it to any NPCs, and you make sure what when they see the PC, the treat him accordingly. "What? You've dropped your shield for a second weapon? Are you suicidal?", for example. Or knowing him as "That guy who put spikes on his shield" instead of his name.

Even if something wasn't the norm for a historical era, it doesn't mean no one did it.

[Kiero]

One other thing I think needs to be done is allow the longspear to be used one-handed. It's more like the doru anyway, which was 6-10 feet long.

Also need some alternate stats for using bullets (and a staff) with a sling. Bullets are longer-ranged and do more damage than a stone, a staff adds still further range.

Sling with a bullet should have a longer range than a shortbow (though not a longbow), and do at least as much damage.


Sure, spiked shields didn't exist, but is hitting people with your shield still reasonable? Maybe replace the spiked shield with this:


Bashing Shield (maybe it has a better historic name?)
Superior one-handed melee weapon
Cost: 10 gp
Damage: 1d6
Proficient: +2
Range: -
Weight: 7 lb

Properties: Off-hand
Group: Mace

Then replace Two-Blade Fighting Style with a fighting style that gives proficiency with light shields and the above Bashing Shield. You gain a little in defence and lose a little on offence, but it'll be fairly close. A disadvantage will having your main and off-hand weapon belonging to different groups for the purposes of weapon focus and expertise.

Below is a ranger built with that option. He also has the option of attacking from range with javelin via Throw and Stab. Our hero runs screaming toward a group of enemies. He hurls a javelin at the meat shield in the front rank, pushing him out of the way (Staggering Stike) then continues his rush into the back rank, slamming his shield into the caster's face, before drawing his mace to finish the demon-worshipper off.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 4
Human, Ranger
Build: Shield Ranger
Fighting Style: Shield Fighting Style
Ranger: Prime Shot

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 19, Con 11, Dex 17, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.


AC: 20 Fort: 19 Reflex: 18 Will: 15
HP: 43 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 10

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +6, Nature +8, Athletics +10, Heal +8, Perception +8, Stealth +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +2, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +3, History +2, Insight +3, Intimidate +1, Religion +2, Streetwise +1, Thievery +4

FEATS
Human: Weapon Focus (Mace)
Level 1: Staggering Strike
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Mace)
Level 4: Quick Draw

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Twin Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Circling Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Throw and Stab
Ranger encounter 1: Off-Hand Strike
Ranger daily 1: Jaws of the Wolf
Ranger utility 2: Invigorating Stride
Ranger encounter 3: Disruptive Strike

ITEMS
Mace, Spiked shield, Hide Armor, Javelin (6), Adventurer's Kit
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


You don't need spikes on a shield for it to be a very effective weapon. For a start the flat side can be used to bludgeon with, and the edge can break noses and jaws, crush windpipes, shatter bones in the feet, even crack skulls.

Rather than making up a new type of shield, I'd be happier just saying if you have proficiency with the shield, you can use it as a weapon. Small shield is a club, large a mace.


In regards to mounted combat, check the errata for the latest rules, they fixed them a while back. The mounts themselves are mostly in the Adventurer's Vault, many could just be renamed to differently bred and armoured horses. PCs can take "Mounted Combat" feat which gives them access to the special abilities of their mounts, such as bonus damage when charging or the "Trample" attack of the Warhorse for example.

That's worth checking out, then.


In order for more variety, you might consider allowing the following classes: Barbarian, Thief, Knight, Slayer, Archer, Scout, Cavalier and Monk. The Cavalier class from Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms is based around mounted combat in part, so maybe if someone wants to be a mounted warrior you could work from that?

Where are they from? Sound like Essentials classes, which are just specific builds.

Is the Cavalier a heavily-armoured horseman? Most in the region are lightly-armoured, only the richest have any at all.

Monk definitely doesn't fit. A pancration athlete is a Fighter.


No magic weapons means no returning weapons, which will make the rogue class a little less attractive. Just something your players should be aware of.

That's why you carry a bundle of javelins, not just one. :smallsmile:

The Rogue basically represents the urban poor type here (rather than the rural poor, who'd more like be a Ranger).


If you want to offer your players a wider range of starting options, goliath is 100% refluffable as a human with gigantism. And most bard powers make about as much sense as warlord powers do, focused on morale debuffing instead of morale buffing. You might offer the bard class, restricted to weapon powers.

Can't help with pregen -- I don't know much about historical Greek life.

I don't, really. All-human is intentional, with Backgrounds for that sort of distinction.


Just a thought on the shield-as-a-weapon thing, this may not be a legit historical source as such but didn't the Spartans in 300 sharpen the edges of their shield and use that as a weapon?

I realise entirely that you're going for the historical angle, but isn't D&D is also about epic combat and well... I dunno. Just a thought, again.

As above, the shield is already dangerous enough without ridiculous spikes.


I can't speak for 4E; but I have this general idea on how to handle things like historicity of weapons and fighting style. When it comes to PCs, they are supposed to be unique, so I allow anything.

You just don't give it to any NPCs, and you make sure what when they see the PC, the treat him accordingly. "What? You've dropped your shield for a second weapon? Are you suicidal?", for example. Or knowing him as "That guy who put spikes on his shield" instead of his name.

Even if something wasn't the norm for a historical era, it doesn't mean no one did it.

They're just plain stupid, and unnecessary. As above, shield is already weapon enough.

[Talyn]

The Persians (and, I believe, the Assyrians) had armored horsemen during that time period, wearing lamellar at least. What they didn't have were stirrups, which made cavalry charges a lot less effective. Now, I don't have the stats for cavalier in front of me, but you could definitely make the Cavalier into a "far-East lancer" with minimal retooling.

While I can sympathize with wanting to keep things "historical," remember that to the Ancient Greeks, the line between history and legend was extremely fluid - as far as they were concerned, their city founders really were the sons of gods, and their "historical" warlords could become invincible (Achilles), climb mountains to carry the sky (Herakles), and turn invisible (Perseus). I can definitely see some Primal and Divine power sources being appropriate for your campaign - for the main characters only, because they are demigods and/or the lovers of the nymphs and/or given special gifts by their patron gods.

For example, let's take the Seeker, a Primal Controller based on ranged weapons. Simply rename it "Son of Aeolus," and explain that the supernatural effects come from your demigod hero's father Aeolus, lord of the winds, lending his influence to charge your attacks with lightning.

As another option, Paladins could easily be renamed "Lovers of Apollo," mortals who have received the favor of the Sun God and gain healing powers and the ability to channel the light of the sun. (Though, with plate armor not an option, paladins are a less attractive class choice overall.)

[Kiero]

The Persians (and, I believe, the Assyrians) had armored horsemen during that time period, wearing lamellar at least. What they didn't have were stirrups, which made cavalry charges a lot less effective. Now, I don't have the stats for cavalier in front of me, but you could definitely make the Cavalier into a "far-East lancer" with minimal retooling.

Absolutely, and the same with some Scythian noble-types, but Massilia is a long way for them to have travelled with all of that gear (and their horse). In the setting in general, they'd work. In this particular chosen location, not so much.

Here in the west, the heaviest horsemen have unarmoured horses, the man wearing mail (if he's a wealthy Celt) or some version of the hoplite's panoply (if he's Greek).


While I can sympathize with wanting to keep things "historical," remember that to the Ancient Greeks, the line between history and legend was extremely fluid - as far as they were concerned, their city founders really were the sons of gods, and their "historical" warlords could become invincible (Achilles), climb mountains to carry the sky (Herakles), and turn invisible (Perseus). I can definitely see some Primal and Divine power sources being appropriate for your campaign - for the main characters only, because they are demigods and/or the lovers of the nymphs and/or given special gifts by their patron gods.

For example, let's take the Seeker, a Primal Controller based on ranged weapons. Simply rename it "Son of Aeolus," and explain that the supernatural effects come from your demigod hero's father Aeolus, lord of the winds, lending his influence to charge your attacks with lightning.

As another option, Paladins could easily be renamed "Lovers of Apollo," mortals who have received the favor of the Sun God and gain healing powers and the ability to channel the light of the sun. (Though, with plate armor not an option, paladins are a less attractive class choice overall.)

That's too far over the mythic side of the line for me, the danger with that approach is that it then becomes little more than D&D-in-sandals. People might talk of the legendary, but that stays in ballads and epics for the purposes of this game. What regular PCs can do already speaks of divine favour.

Some Primal (and the Bard) could work. Druid without wildshape (there's a version in Essentials, I believe) I think is more feasible than Beastmaster Ranger. Shaman could work. Barbarian with some toning down.

Divine don't, IMO. The only "priestly" powers that are appropriate are divination and dream-related stuff, which are basically rituals.

[incandescent]

if you make the longspear a one handed weapon, I suggest you step it down to a d8 in damage since you can wield it with a shield, get reach, and match most of the other weapons on your list in damage.

also, I believe there's a feat for sling users that increases it's proficiency bonus to +3 and gives it high crit, if that's what you had in mind.

[Kiero]

if you make the longspear a one handed weapon, I suggest you step it down to a d8 in damage since you can wield it with a shield, get reach, and match most of the other weapons on your list in damage.

So make it a spear with reach?


also, I believe there's a feat for sling users that increases it's proficiency bonus to +3 and gives it high crit, if that's what you had in mind.

That's a useful additional for the skilled slinger, but I'm ruling that a lead bullet gives it the same range and damage as a shortbow.

[incandescent]

If you are using both the regular spear and a two handed spear with better damage and reach made one handed, no one will take the other spear. so, yea, I'd probably just replace both spears with this lighter damage variant that still has reach (From a game balance stand point. As I said, I don't know much about this subject. Spears could have been the best weapon for all I know.) That way, there is actually a trade-off in comparison with the remaining d10 weapons.

As it stands now, the only weapon that beats it in damage is the great axe. Unless i missed another d12er.

[Kiero]

If you are using both the regular spear and a two handed spear with better damage and reach made one handed, no one will take the other spear. so, yea, I'd probably just replace both spears with this lighter damage variant that still has reach (From a game balance stand point. As I said, I don't know much about this subject. Spears could have been the best weapon for all I know.) That way, there is actually a trade-off in comparison with the remaining d10 weapons.

As it stands now, the only weapon that beats it in damage is the great axe. Unless i missed another d12er.

Well, people who can't afford and don't have access to the soldier's weapon wouldn't use it. Besides which the regular spear is a lot more useful to a peasant hunter than the rather inconvenient longspear.

I'm trusting to versimilitude and control over access to weapons, rather than mechanics alone to sort this "problem".

Is your character a Greek hoplite? Then no longspear for you.

[Psyx]

Having recently been all through this myself, I made a mental list like yours:

No magic
'Martial' type classes
Semi-realistic
Heroic where it needs to be

...And realised that to get D&D to work, I would be using around about 5% of the rulebook and still doing 10 hours work on getting things into shape. Which was the slap in the face that I needed to go and dig something more suitable out. Right tool for the job and all that.

Now in the end I went for a quite mythological setting, which is like Greece but all the legends and deities are true. I finally settled on using Feng Shui for the system, for speed and sheer hero-factor. It took some re-tooling of the Shtick trees, but my players LOVED it.
For a slightly more complex but still very heroic take on it, I'd also look and using Qin.

[Kiero]

Having recently been all through this myself, I made a mental list like yours:

No magic
'Martial' type classes
Semi-realistic
Heroic where it needs to be

...And realised that to get D&D to work, I would be using around about 5% of the rulebook and still doing 10 hours work on getting things into shape. Which was the slap in the face that I needed to go and dig something more suitable out. Right tool for the job and all that.

Using 5% of the rulebook isn't an issue for me, and there's very little real work needed when you're just cutting things out.


Now in the end I went for a quite mythological setting, which is like Greece but all the legends and deities are true. I finally settled on using Feng Shui for the system, for speed and sheer hero-factor. It took some re-tooling of the Shtick trees, but my players LOVED it.
For a slightly more complex but still very heroic take on it, I'd also look and using Qin.

Feng Shui is one of those I loved back in the day, but it's just too clunky and poorly-designed for my tastes today. The point of this is to have an alternative to simply doing another FATE 3.0 hack.

[Psyx]

I also re-geared my home-made system for this (heck, the genre is why I wrote the system in the first place!), but writing a new system is more work than I'd recommend, too!

I just feel that after taking so much away from 3.5 that it's partly dependant on and that are it's main selling points, that you might as well consider something else instead.

Hmmm... Runequest was originally designed to be bronze-age... kinda.

[Kiero]

I also re-geared my home-made system for this (heck, the genre is why I wrote the system in the first place!), but writing a new system is more work than I'd recommend, too!

As before, cutting away extraneous bits is hardly akin to writing a new system. You start from a common understanding and simplify by removing things.


I just feel that after taking so much away from 3.5 that it's partly dependant on and that are it's main selling points, that you might as well consider something else instead.

Uh, you mean 4E? I tagged the thread as such for clarity. I wouldn't run 3.x if someone paid me.


Hmmm... Runequest was originally designed to be bronze-age... kinda.

This is solidly Iron Age for the region, not Bronze Age. Runequest isn't really my thing. As I said, my alternative is FATE 3.0.