OOTS #765 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Shadic]

Hrm.. Wasn't expecting this turn of events. Guess that shows what Haley's expression was in the fifth panel of 764.

[Blue Ghost]

I always knew that Haley's greed was authentic, and the whole thing about the ransom was just an excuse.

[Hardcore]

Who doesn't love money? Btw, Haley DO show character growth if she merely let it get under the their love rather than between it:smalltongue:

[Forealms]

Ha! "Three finger discount" and "Directly to Jail" were easily the best parts of this one.

Thanks, Giant!

[Forrestfire]

Heh. "three-finger discount"

:smallbiggrin:

This comic made my day night morning.

[Zevox]

I love the "Directly to Jail" sign. :smallbiggrin:

Zevox

[Felixc-91]

{scrubbed}
in response to the actual comic: hahahahahahah!.!.... wait, hard shifty surfaces, that sounds really uncomfortable.

[Jade_Tarem]

I love the "Directly to Jail" sign. :smallbiggrin:

Zevox

You'll note that they didn't pass Go, either.

[TriForce]

nice :) expected, but nice :D

[Xondoure]

Ha! Oh Haley…

[vegetablevoice]

Sweet! Back to the arena we go!

[Thanatosia]

How does she know where her father is being jailed? Are the Gladatorial pits the only place an empire like this one would keep prisoner/hostages? In fact, Tarquins comments to Elan would normally lead one to expect the opposite.

[Brendan]

Three fingered discount. heh.i liked that a lot...
great comic!

[Ranzunar]

Checking the site before going to bed pays off again. Oh Giant, know you will make me cry when Haley and Ian Starshine reunite in a big emotional father-daughter hug. And then I will laugh when they have stolen each other's money ouches. Awesome as always Giant.

[SPoD]

How does she know where her father is being jailed? Are the Gladatorial pits the only place an empire like this one would keep prisoner/hostages?

She's guessing, more or less.

She knows where the jail in this town is because there are big signs telling her where it is (and since it's likely attached to the Arena, it's not much of a secret anyway). Does she know for sure that her dad is in that jail? No, but where else is she going to look? If he's not there, she can think of where else he might be afterwards.

[Felixc-91]

How does she know where her father is being jailed? Are the Gladiatorial pits the only place an empire like this one would keep prisoner/hostages? well, it looks like the gladiatorial pits being the primary jail is implied from the directly to jail sign. also if there were multiple jails, it would make sense to check the gladiatorial arena first...

[Bulzeeb]

Woo! New comic! Was sort of expecting this turn of events simply because if Haley wanted to overthrow Tarquin, she would have at least consulted Durkon and V.

[rewinn]

I love the "Directly to Jail" sign. :smallbiggrin:

Zevox

You'll note that they didn't pass Go, either.
But did they collect 200,000 Dollars GP?

[Advance Strat..]

This should be interesting once Roy finds out who Ian is exactly.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Nice one! I'm wondering if we'll get one more Star Wars reference in the gladiator pits. Rancor vs. Roy, Belkar and Ian, anyone?

[Gift Jeraff]

I love the "Directly to Jail" sign. :smallbiggrin:
I think this is my favorite visual gag in a long time.

[3020232]

I like how clueless Elan can be.

"Can't we just stick to beds?"

[Felixc-91]

I love the "Directly to Jail" sign. :smallbiggrin:

Zevox
You'll note that they didn't pass Go, either.

But did they collect 200,000 Dollars GP?

nope, Elan refused it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html)!:smallbiggrin:

[PirateMonk]

Not too much plot advancement, but good, silly jokes. Nice.

[Flickerdart]

But did they collect 200,000 Dollars GP?
It's ok, Haley's got the community chest. :smallwink:

[blackjack217]

What a convenient sign!

[StrykerX]

For some reason the "directly to jail" sign was the funniest bit for me... that and "looter's comp". :smallbiggrin:

[Deuce]

That Elan is a lucky fellow.

[binyamin20]

How does Haley know that her father is here?

[lothos]

That Elan is a lucky fellow.

+1. Though I'm not sure I'd want to be "part dragon" and have a bed of treasure, no matter what activities were on offer :-)

Also, I love the way Haley isn't being hotheaded, she may have flame read hair, but she is thinking coolly and rationally despite what she must feel for Tarquin right now. Right on target for her character developed so far.

Great comic. Thanks.

[Felixc-91]

How does Haley know that her father is here?Elan told her. his father told him that this place used to be Tyrinanria...

[Gift Jeraff]

On another note, how many recurring "villains chasing [their] collective asses" is Haley actually aware of?

-She knows of Xykon, Redcloak, Tsukiko, and their forces. (She may or may not know of Jirix, though that's not really a big deal.)
-Unless O-Chul informed her otherwise, she thinks the MitD is a threat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0527.html).
-I think, deep down, the Order knows that there's no way the Linear Guild died off-screen.
-She is not aware of the IFCC unless she remembers Sabine's brief allusion to them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), which I highly doubt.
-Unless Roy told her, she is not aware that Miko died (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html). However, now that I think about it, this does not fit well with Elan's assumption that Nale died.
-She's paranoid and savvy enough to expect more from Gannji and Enor.
-She knows from Elan that Kubota is taken care of, though she might also know that a significant henchman (Qarr) got away.
-Bozzok and the Thieves' Guild?

And that's all I can think of.

[doodthedud]

haha, nice. Cool to see it pop up as I'm reading older ones

[AgentofOdd]

Is there a reason Haley is so sure her father is being held in the city? I mean sure, if the Blood were the only folks with a major city it'd make sense, but there seems to be at least three other places where he could be held (the Kingdoms of Tears and Sweat, and the ex free city of Doom).

[MoonCat]

Haley is aware of Miko's death, the Oracle told her just before Belkar killed him

[rewinn]

It's ok, Haley's got the community chest. :smallwink:

Isn't that currently a leather-bound chest?

Alternatively: the community chest cards are nicely stacked!



On another note, how many recurring "villains chasing [their] collective asses" is Haley actually aware of?...
She may not know Samantha and her daddy are dead; Miko would have no reason to talk about what to Miko would be a minor smiting of yet another couple of non-goodniks.

[SPoD]

Is there a reason Haley is so sure her father is being held in the city? I mean sure, if the Blood were the only folks with a major city it'd make sense, but there seems to be at least three other places where he could be held (the Kingdoms of Tears and Sweat, and the ex free city of Doom).

Tarquin explicitly told Elan that the city they were standing in was the capital of Tyrinaria. So, no, she's not positive, but it's the best place to start.


Haley is aware of Miko's death, the Oracle told her just before Belkar killed him

Yes, and then Haley lost her memory of that conversation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html) when she left the valley.

[Kichiku]

Haha, Haley and her greed :smallbiggrin:

So, looks like we may have a jailbreak on our hands after all. Or maybe not, assuming that all the slaves/prisoners are at the arena now...

[Nimrod's Son]

Man, Sijo's gonna hate this one. :smallamused:

EDIT: Shouldn't Haley have her bow in the penultimate panel?

[Tobimaro]

It's ok, Haley's got the community chest. :smallwink:

Yeah, but why take that 'Chance'? :smalltongue:

And it's nice to see that Elan may be improving, but he still has his moments when his low intelligence shows. The last panel made me laugh. :smallsmile:

[Dr.Epic]

I like the Monopoly reference: Directly to Jail.

[Nevereatcars]

The answer to where Haley was draggin Elan in 764: revealed! Yay... no I can sleep at night. Or in the day. Why is it "at night" but it's not "at day"?

[KingFlameHawk]

In the fifth panel Haley says that she is ignoring Roy's orders but she is forgetting that he said that because Tarquin has info on Girard and he didn't want to antagonise him. I can see Haley's decision making everything a whole lot worse for the OOTS.

[Conuly]

The answer to where Haley was draggin Elan in 764: revealed! Yay... no I can sleep at night. Or in the day. Why is it "at night" but it's not "at day"?

So that people with nothing to say would have something to talk about.

[deworde]

Awwwww.... This is possibly the cutest relationship comic in the entire Oots.

[factotum]

Haley and Elan teaming up to jailbreak her father...interesting!

As for how this will affect their relationship with Tarquin, possibly not at all. It's clear that Ian and his brother-in-law have been successfully avoiding fighting in the arena for some time, so they could have slipped under the radar. What's perhaps more of a worry is that Bozzok had influential friends on the Western Continent who got Ian Starshine captured in the first place...could that be Tarquin's merry band of adventurers?

(And it's just occurred to me that maybe Ian was running off to the Western Continent to rescue Geoff...it would explain why he left in such a hurry!).

[joela]

Heart the last panel. Table. Heh :smallbiggrin:

[Felixc-91]

about the jail break effecting Tarquin's relationship to the Oots. i think it will depend very much on 2 variables. 1: dose he see it as an issue of family loyalty, or dose he see it as breaking from the rules(not sure which ones yet). 2: do they end up fighting their way in, or do they do it really sneaky like. if they leave dead bodies and/or are identified then he might worry about how a direct challenge to his authority looks to the public. and i could see that ending very badly if he sees it as a threat to his power base.

[Kichiku]

In the fifth panel Haley says that she is ignoring Roy's orders but she is forgetting that he said that because Tarquin has info on Girard and he didn't want to antagonise him. I can see Haley's decision making everything a whole lot worse for the OOTS.

Technically, so should Elan's attacking of Tarquin have done, but he has so far shown no intent of not giving them the info. True, things might change, but he seems to genuinely wants to help his son getting the quest he's on right now done with. So as long as long as he doens't change his mind, I foresee him letting the Order get off lightly (rigged trial a la Shojo or a token chase out of the town and a hidden message for Elan somehow telling him the info).

And even if this ends in trouble, Roy might understand - even if he himself didn't have the best father, he knows that family is still important.

[Tussy the Druid]

Drawing a massive blank:

Three fingered discount = ?

[Shmuel]

In the fifth panel Haley says that she is ignoring Roy's orders but she is forgetting that he said that because Tarquin has info on Girard and he didn't want to antagonise him. I can see Haley's decision making everything a whole lot worse for the OOTS.
Forgetting? Nah. Just disregarding. Her immediate goal is going to be rescuing her father if she has the chance, and let the long-term chips fall where they may.

[Shmuel]

Drawing a massive blank:

Three fingered discount = ?

"Five-finger discount" refers to stealing something, over in the real world. Consider the anatomy of the characters in this comic...

[Agi Hammerthief]

now ExclusiveOwnership definately needs a "break your buddy out of Jail" card :smallbiggrin:

[silvadel]

Haley'd better watch out:

Sleeping on a huge mound of treasure while thinking greedy thoughts is liable to turn you into a dragon... At least it works that way in Narnia.

[R. Shackleford]

In the fifth panel Haley says that she is ignoring Roy's orders but she is forgetting that he said that because Tarquin has info on Girard and he didn't want to antagonise him. I can see Haley's decision making everything a whole lot worse for the OOTS.

When Roy said that though, he didn't know that he was going to be pit into a deathmatch, or that Tarquin was probably affable enough to have just told them without having the try and do a crapton of skill checks to find it out. Or that a huge plot point was in the way. I still don't know if Roy is up to speed with events, actually.

Tarquin seems like the type to appreciate the dynamic he's created here: his son's girlfriend's dad is a prisoner in his kingdom. Think of the dramatic tension! Whether or not he'd let him go or make it difficult because he's the designated villain is up to him, naturally.

It seems like a lot of events in this arc could've been resolved by simply asking and waiting. It wouldn't have been interesting, of course.

It's like the DM right now is thinking, "you bloody idiots, stop making checks and ask the NPC about the gate! The Taco Bell closes at 2, yanno!"

[Morph Bark]

Haley is smart. She can predict people using Raise Dead and everything. She obviously is a future psychic like Roy! Boy, Roy must have a lot of students...

[MBI]

The funniest part is, I read a story on the crack pairings thread where she does act out that fantasy. With Belkar scrying on them. With it being heavily implied that what they do is worse than some websites than I will not mention here in fear of some poor fool searching for one of them.

Hilarity Ensures.

[Kichiku]

Haley is smart. She can predict people using Raise Dead and everything. She obviously is a future psychic like Roy! Boy, Roy must have a lot of students...

Not the first time she has done this too!:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html

:smallbiggrin:

[DrGonzo]

Very nice, especially the sign!

[Azukar]

That could be... uncomfortable. Especially if her hoard contains pointy gemstones and jewelery as well as coins.

[Quixoto]

Hrm.. Wasn't expecting this turn of events. Guess that shows what Haley's expression was in the fifth panel of 764.

Wait, what? I'm very much confused by this statement. Was that shocked expression supposed to be her reaction to Elan telling her about her father being held by Tarquin or about Tarquin's casual homicide? Perhaps she was shocked like in the fifth panel about the treatment of the slaves and angry like in the fourth panel about her father's imprisonment. However, this doesn't actually answer any of those questions.

On another note... Hey, I'm posting again for the first time in like 3-4 years!
W00ts all around!!!

[faustin]

Hummm.... Does anyone think that the strip it´s intended to give us a hint of a future "dramatic tension" in Haley and Elan relationship because H´s "love" for money?

[Deme]

Hummm.... Does anyone think that the strip it´s intended to give us a hint of a future "dramatic tension" in Haley and Elan relationship because H´s "love" for money?

Actually, given what she's said in this very strip...Unlikely. She already said it -- it's theirs, not just hers. She's chosen her priorities the same way Elan did when he told her what happened with Therkla -- a "happy ending," as Elan put it, with the two of them in it, matters more than dramatic tension or money.

The sheer heart-warming goodness of that line is better than coffee for a warm wake-up this morning. Thanks, Rich.

[Blaznak]

I wonder if there is also a sign pointing to the Community Chest...

[Klytus]

I wonder if there is also a sign pointing to the Community Chest...

I'm wondering where GO! is in a city like this...

[the_tick_rules]

Haley is one freaky freaky girl.

[Ron Miel]

I always knew that Haley's greed was authentic, and the whole thing about the ransom was just an excuse.

But she still needed the ransom money, though.

[Jay R]

Haley'd better watch out:

Sleeping on a huge mound of treasure while thinking greedy thoughts is liable to turn you into a dragon... At least it works that way in Narnia.

It's OK -- she's planning to have lustful thoughts.

[Jay R]

+1. Though I'm not sure I'd want to be "part dragon" and have a bed of treasure, no matter what activities were on offer :-)

Well, not part dragon, but Elan does want to be a dinosaur (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html).

[Squark]

But did they collect 200,000 Dollars GP?

Oh. My. God.


Did the Giant plan that? Because I just laughed out loud.

(sorry for the late post. But when you get me to laugh like, that, it deserves mentioning)

[Lemur Bear]

Elan has a problem with prepositions it seems...and propositions...

What I do not recall is when Elan found out that Ian Starshine is here. I haven't gone back through comics to look it up though, so it could just be poor memory. Or, a Send between comics...

[Mordokai]

I'm not sure I get the "three fingers discount" joke. I googled it and it gets me "five fingers discount", which means stealing. Is this kind of inside joke I'm not getting?

[Volthawk]

I'm not sure I get the "three fingers discount" joke. I googled it and it gets me "five fingers discount", which means stealing. Is this kind of inside joke I'm not getting?

Look at an OOTS character's hand.

[Pyron]

I'm not sure I get the "three fingers discount" joke. I googled it and it gets me "five fingers discount", which means stealing. Is this kind of inside joke I'm not getting?

As stick figures, Haley only has three fingers per hand. And, one toe per foot.

[Tyndmyr]

about the jail break effecting Tarquin's relationship to the Oots. i think it will depend very much on 2 variables. 1: dose he see it as an issue of family loyalty, or dose he see it as breaking from the rules(not sure which ones yet). 2: do they end up fighting their way in, or do they do it really sneaky like. if they leave dead bodies and/or are identified then he might worry about how a direct challenge to his authority looks to the public. and i could see that ending very badly if he sees it as a threat to his power base.

What, his son going off on a dashing adventure to jailbreak his beloved's father? He'll see it as dramatically appropriate.

It's not like he cares if a few guards die.

[ref]

What I do not recall is when Elan found out that Ian Starshine is here. I haven't gone back through comics to look it up though, so it could just be poor memory. Or, a Send between comics...

Haley told Elan her dad was captive in a country called Tyrinnaria. That's the cause of Elan's reaction on learning that Tyrinnaria is where they are now.

[fizzybobnewt]

I'm not sure if I get "directly to jail". Is it funny just because of the monopoly reference?

[Mordokai]

Look at an OOTS character's hand.


As stick figures, Haley only has three fingers per hand. And, one toe per foot.

Yeah, I should probably pay more attention :smalltongue:

[Kish]

I'm not sure if I get "directly to jail". Is it funny just because of the monopoly reference?
Yes. If it wasn't for Monopoly, the sign would probably just say "Jail" or possibly "To Jail."

[DougTheHead]

So, is there ANY chance that Tarquin isn't waiting for Haley and Elan at the jail right now?

[Flickerdart]

So, is there ANY chance that Tarquin isn't waiting for Haley and Elan at the jail right now?
Maybe he still needs to finish his wine, and sent Malack forward instead.

[The Pilgrim]

Mmmh... question is, why is Haley modifiyng her original plan?

Her plan was to give the money, get his father, steal the cash back. Why is her modifiyng that plan? Tarquin being evil doesn't change anything, it was pretty clear from the start that whoever ruled "Tyrinaria" was a Lawful Evil guy, so...

She can go to Tarquin, hand him the money, get his father, and return later to recover her investment. It's a lot safer and she had expressed her desire to come back later and pwn Tarquin anyway.

[Agi Hammerthief]

So, is there ANY chance that Tarquin isn't waiting for Haley and Elan at the jail right now?
afawk Elan didn't mention that anyone important was in the jail right now

[factotum]

So, is there ANY chance that Tarquin isn't waiting for Haley and Elan at the jail right now?

A very large chance, if he doesn't know that Haley's father is imprisoned there. Even if he *was* responsible for imprisoning Ian Starshine I don't think he's ever been given Haley's full name, so there's no in-comic reason for him to make that connection.

[jevans90]

A very large chance, if he doesn't know that Haley's father is imprisoned there. Even if he *was* responsible for imprisoning Ian Starshine I don't think he's ever been given Haley's full name, so there's no in-comic reason for him to make that connection.

Depends whether he connected the reason Elan asked about ransoms. While he seemed distracted by the firey surprise, I would expect him to have made a mental note that Elan probably knew of someone in Tyrania's prison. Whether he does anything direct about it, I'm not sure.

[Joerg]

The jail may be a different building than the arena, which is called bloodstone correctional facility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0734.html).

[iowaforever]

Yay monopoly reference!
but i don't think Tarquin will react too severely to this; he didn't kill Elan or have him arrested for attacking him, even though that's a capital crime in the EoB, and said he was still going to tell him everything and send him on his way
all he's probably going to do here, if Elan and Haley do get caught, is take the money, maybe give them some kind of villan-y lecture, and stick with his original plan

[brionl]

I wonder if there is also a sign pointing to the Community Chest...

Raquel Welch?

/rimshot

[mr man]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html panel 13 v's last sentence a bit of foreshadowing
much

[The MunchKING]

3 fingered discount. I loled. :smalltongue:

And for a Bard, Elan seems woefully uncreative when it comes to the making of whoopie. :smallconfused:

[SPoD]

Mmmh... question is, why is Haley modifiyng her original plan?

Her plan was to give the money, get his father, steal the cash back. Why is her modifiyng that plan? Tarquin being evil doesn't change anything, it was pretty clear from the start that whoever ruled "Tyrinaria" was a Lawful Evil guy, so...

She can go to Tarquin, hand him the money, get his father, and return later to recover her investment. It's a lot safer and she had expressed her desire to come back later and pwn Tarquin anyway.

Because it's Tarquin, and she now has sworn vengeance against Tarquin.

Right now, Tarquin doesn't seem to know that he has Haley's dad prisoner because those details were handled by his other ally, Myron. If he learned that fact, he might find a way to use it against Elan at some point. Plus, there's no reason to think that the Empire of Blood would even honor Tyrinaria's ransom demand.

"What? We're holding the father of my son's girlfriend prisoner? Well, no, actually, we're not going to exchange him for a measly 200,000 gp, we're going to keep him. And we're going to torture him until Elan surrenders. Better yet, let's kill him and burn the body, that ought to really crank up the angst factor for Elan."

[Shott]

The "Directly to Jail" sign was easily my favorite part.

[Tundar]

I'm a sucker for silly jokes, hence why I love this strip.

And Elan is just being himself. Can't stop adoring him, but isn't that what an 18 cha is for?

[veti]

"What? We're holding the father of my son's girlfriend prisoner? Well, no, actually, we're not going to exchange him for a measly 200,000 gp, we're going to keep him. And we're going to torture him until Elan surrenders."

Elan did surrender to Tarquin a couple of strips ago. That's not what Tarquin wants.

What worries me about this strip is the title. It's a Bible quote, and I'm afraid it may well be foreshadowing. (Google it (http://www.google.com/search?&q='the+love+of+money') if you don't know what I'm talking about.)

[Warren Dew]

Right now, Tarquin doesn't seem to know that he has Haley's dad prisoner because those details were handled by his other ally, Myron. If he learned that fact, he might find a way to use it against Elan at some point. Plus, there's no reason to think that the Empire of Blood would even honor Tyrinaria's ransom demand.

Use it against Elan? Tarquin has gone out of his way to be nice to Elan at every opportunity. Elan is his son, and he obviously thinks blood is thicker than alignment.

The truth is, he'd probably free Haley's dad for free if Elan asked nicely. Heck, if he knew about it, he might free Haley's dad without being asked, just to be nice to his son's girlfriend. Haley is going off half cocked again.

Also, a general question: didn't Haley use up most of her money funding the resistance? Or did she get it back at some point?

[Felixc-91]

Use it against Elan? Tarquin has gone out of his way to be nice to Elan at every opportunity. Elan is his son, and he obviously thinks blood is thicker than alignment.

The truth is, he'd probably free Haley's dad for free if Elan asked nicely. Heck, if he knew about it, he might free Haley's dad without being asked, just to be nice to his son's girlfriend. Haley is going off half cocked again.

Also, a general question: didn't Haley use up most of her money funding the resistance? Or did she get it back at some point?

she mentions spending a lot of her money during her time in the Azur city resistance. however we do see her gain a lot back when sneaks into the frog/toad man's castle. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0577.html)

[Nighthawk4]

I love the 'Directly to Jail' sign.

I hope Haley is successful. :haley:

Incidentally, the '3 fingered discount' is a quote from The Simpsons, who also seem to have only 3 fingers. :smallsmile:

[Felixc-91]

What, his son going off on a dashing adventure to jailbreak his beloved's father? He'll see it as dramatically appropriate.

It's not like he cares if a few guards die.
but he cares about perception and precedent. if they are seen openly defying his authority it leaves open the possibility of others following their example. look at what he says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html), 7th panel, 3rd bubble.

[Nimrod's Son]

Incidentally, the '3 fingered discount' is a quote from The Simpsons, who also seem to have only 3 fingers.
Four, actually. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

"Do not pass go"

[Inkling]

Ahhh, the ultimate declaration of love. Truly, their relationship will last for eternity.

[Scarlet Knight]

I'm wondering where GO! is in a city like this...

Just past the trees, in that...umm..Park place...:smallwink:

[arpin]

A)Someone may have stated this already

B)This may be a coincidence

It was 634 strips from the point we learned that Haley was trying to pay off her ransom debts to the point we learn she was going to steal it back anyway.

In comic #634, V accepts the soul splice deal.

I have no idea what I'm trying to get at with this, it's just on my mind.

[Nevereatcars]

A)Someone may have stated this already

B)This may be a coincidence

It was 634 strips from the point we learned that Haley was trying to pay off her ransom debts to the point we learn she was going to steal it back anyway.

In comic #634, V accepts the soul splice deal.

I have no idea what I'm trying to get at with this, it's just on my mind.

By a curious coincidence...

[Gift Jeraff]

Four, actually. :smallsmile:
The thumb is not a finger, so says Homer's finger insurance. :smallwink:

[Nimrod's Son]

The thumb is not a finger
We're talking about the phrase "five finger discount" here, so it very much is. :smalltongue:

[factotum]

Just past the trees, in that...umm..Park place...:smallwink:

Unless you're using a non-US version of Monopoly, of course... :smallwink:

[The MunchKING]

she mentions spending a lot of her money during her time in the Azur city resistance. however we do see her gain a lot back when sneaks into the frog/toad man's castle. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0577.html)

And she looted the Guild and Brainy Pete's for all they were worth.

[Nighthawk4]

Unless you're using a non-US version of Monopoly, of course... :smallwink:

Never really thought about it but on a UK version if we go from Park Lane to Mayfair, the next square on the board might be Soho. Of course the next one is Old Kent Road iirc, which is much further east, so GO could be Trafalgar Square or Picadilly Circus. I seem to recall that the Layout of the Monopoly board makes little sense geographically :smallsmile:

[Felixc-91]

And she looted the Guild and Brainy Pete's for all they were worth.she did? when? i don't recall her taking anything other than the bow... did i miss something? oh, and Crystals gear i suppose.

[cc_kizz]

I <3 Elan! And the crowd in the background looks magnificent! And of course, this was the only logical next step.

[Swordpriest]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html panel 13 v's last sentence a bit of foreshadowing
much

Interesting catch -- although admittedly, he's talking about thinning the ranks of their enemies, not the ranks of their friends and allies as seems more likely to happen here. :smallsmile:

[Orzel]

Some people got to have it
Heh Heh!
Some people really need it
Listen to me
Y'all, do things, do things, do bad things with it
Well
You wanna do things, do things, do things, good things with it
Talk about cash money, money
Talk about cash money
Dollar bills y'all

*bass*

For the love of money!

[Spirited Charge]

awesome comic Giant!

[Burner28]

Some people got to have it
Heh Heh!
Some people really need it
Listen to me
Y'all, do things, do things, do bad things with it
Well
You wanna do things, do things, do things, good things with it
Talk about cash money, money
Talk about cash money
Dollar bills y'all

*bass*

For the love of money!

Huh? What the

[Gift Jeraff]

We're talking about the phrase "five finger discount" here, so it very much is. :smalltongue:
No need to pick apart a Simpsons reference... :smallfrown:

[Mr. Snuggles]

Plot hole: neither Haley nor Elan know that Ian is in prison. All Tarquin said was that the city was formerly called Tyrinaria. How the heck did they figure out Ian is in the gladiator jail, much less any other jail or possibly being rented out as a slave somewhere, much less that he's with Roy? :smallconfused:

[Conuly]

Plot hole: neither Haley nor Elan know that Ian is in prison. All Tarquin said was that the city was formerly called Tyrinaria. How the heck did they figure out Ian is in the gladiator jail, much less any other jail or possibly being rented out as a slave somewhere, much less that he's with Roy? :smallconfused:

1. They DO know he's in prison. Haley got a letter from Miron telling her that her father was in a prison in Tyrinaria.

2. For all we know, there may only be the one prison. In fact, that's kinda implied by the fact that Tarquin says sometimes he ransoms prisoners if they're "no fun in the arena". Seems like "gladiator" is pretty much all that happens to prisoners.

3. They don't know he's with Roy. They know he's in prison. They're heading towards the prison.

[JonestheSpy]

The "Directly to Jail" sign was easily my favorite part.

Likewise.

Didn't get "3 fingered discount" until reading this thread - awesome metahumor.

[St Fan]

Interistingly, this strip reveals that Elan was rather thorough in his report.

From what Haley mentions, she knows:
1) About Tarquin's allies, thus Elan must have explained the 3 empires ploy.

2) That Tarquin like to play with the exact meaning of words, and thus she knows how he sent his dragoons "joining the battle" for the Free City of Doom.

3) That her father is in prison here, and thus that they are in former Tyrinnaria.

It was already implied by the foreground dialogue in last page that the background explanation took some time, now we have it confirmed.

This is much more than you could expect coming from Elan a few arcs ago. Of course, it's still possible he could have forgotten one little detail that would prove important later...

[MoonCat]

LOL! I just noticed the title!
I don't think anyone mentioned the Free City of Doom betrayal in the attempt to script the last strip, it feels like ancient history now, doesn't it?

[semi]

meh.

The best thing I can say about this particular strip is that without ones like this, the past few would not feel too epic in their awesomeness. I understand the necessity for this part of teh plot but in comparison to what we've recently experienced it wasn't a home run (at least for me and really what do I know?)

[Reptile]

Haley'd better watch out:

Sleeping on a huge mound of treasure while thinking greedy thoughts is liable to turn you into a dragon... At least it works that way in Narnia.

She's actually half-dragon, you know. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html) :)

[Dancing_Fox]

-----------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orzel
Some people got to have it
Heh Heh!
Some people really need it
Listen to me
Y'all, do things, do things, do bad things with it
Well
You wanna do things, do things, do things, good things with it
Talk about cash money, money
Talk about cash money
Dollar bills y'all

*bass*

For the love of money!
-----------------------


Huh? What the

Orzel is referencing the strip title "The Love of Money."

Some people like to sing songs . . . roll with it. :smallsmile:

I must admit to translating "3 fingered discount" into "5 fingered discount" (ie shoplifting) automatically, although I shamefully did not make the connection that OOtS characters are drawn with 3 fingers . . . even though I KNEW that.

I guess that the thread devoted to statting out the characters will need to have an awareness of this now, as this represents some type of evidence that the characters REALLY do only have three fingers, as opposed to it simply being an art simplification like Elan not being able to tell if he was wearing boots or not, or Haley's trousers not showing.
Makes a difference for design of weapons and skills, I would imagine.
I wonder if they have one opposable thumb and two fingers, or two opposable thumbs and one finger on each hand?

Either that, or they really do have five fingers, this is a one off joke based on the character recognising the limitations of the art style - which would be my preference.

[plasma ball]

Really good comic:smallbiggrin:

Poor Elan. He just doesn't understand.

[homersolo]

I feel like I am the only one who feels like Haley is totally in the wrong with everything she's doing and saying in this installment. There has been nothing to suggest to Elan that her father is still alive, so running off to the jails is problematic at best. Plus, even if she gets him out, we saw how well received escape attempts were received. What we know now is this: Elan's father is willing to do just about anything for his son, that he is still willing to help them with their quest, and that he knew that his son was running to tell his friends what he had just learned. What about that sequence of knowledge suggests it is a good idea to run off half-cocked.

Plus, without sparking up a good vs. evil debate, Haley isn't acting/speaking as though she is good aligned. It is clear that she knows that her father is a thief. Given that fact, she must have known that there was a good chance that her father was legally arrested. Despite that, she was planning on freeing him from prison and then stealing back the money. None of which strikes me as good.

Heck, she is less of a good person now than she was before (at least in my mind) because she had reason to be greedy before (saving her father). Now we show that she is just greedy.

[Gd8908]

Awesome! "Three finger discount" is funny.

P.S.Today's punchline sends a strange image... :smalleek: I hope she washes those...

[Gd8908]

I feel like I am the only one who feels like Haley is totally in the wrong with everything she's doing and saying in this installment. There has been nothing to suggest to Elan that her father is still alive, so running off to the jails is problematic at best. Plus, even if she gets him out, we saw how well received escape attempts were received. What we know now is this: Elan's father is willing to do just about anything for his son, that he is still willing to help them with their quest, and that he knew that his son was running to tell his friends what he had just learned. What about that sequence of knowledge suggests it is a good idea to run off half-cocked.

Plus, without sparking up a good vs. evil debate, Haley isn't acting/speaking as though she is good aligned. It is clear that she knows that her father is a thief. Given that fact, she must have known that there was a good chance that her father was legally arrested. Despite that, she was planning on freeing him from prison and then stealing back the money. None of which strikes me as good.

Heck, she is less of a good person now than she was before (at least in my mind) because she had reason to be greedy before (saving her father). Now we show that she is just greedy.
{scrubbed}

[Kish]

Plus, without sparking up a good vs. evil debate,

"Not to open a can of worms...no, don't look at what I'm doing with the can opener..."


Haley isn't acting/speaking as though she is good aligned. It is clear that she knows that her father is a thief. Given that fact, she must have known that there was a good chance that her father was legally arrested. Despite that, she was planning on freeing him from prison and then stealing back the money. None of which strikes me as good.

Haley has never acted as though there is anything wrong with stealing, except when Celia steals from her. You're only now noting this? More, you're noting this specifically to say you consider disregarding the laws of Tarquin's sociopathocracy "nongood"?

[Conuly]

P.S.Today's punchline sends a strange image... I hope she washes those...

Until they shine! It's kinda creepy.... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html)

[Cerlis]

Interistingly, this strip reveals that Elan was rather thorough in his report.

From what Haley mentions, she knows:
1) About Tarquin's allies, thus Elan must have explained the 3 empires ploy.

2) That Tarquin like to play with the exact meaning of words, and thus she knows how he sent his dragoons "joining the battle" for the Free City of Doom.

3) That her father is in prison here, and thus that they are in former Tyrinnaria.

It was already implied by the foreground dialogue in last page that the background explanation took some time, now we have it confirmed.

This is much more than you could expect coming from Elan a few arcs ago. Of course, it's still possible he could have forgotten one little detail that would prove important later...

Right, in the last thread i tried to point out that since every small talk conversation was about a different thing, that Elan's explination must have taken a long time.

Elan most likely told her everything.

[Felixc-91]

Plus, without sparking up a good vs. evil debate, Haley isn't acting/speaking as though she is good aligned. It is clear that she knows that her father is a thief. Given that fact, she must have known that there was a good chance that her father was legally arrested. Despite that, she was planning on freeing him from prison and then stealing back the money. None of which strikes me as good.

Heck, she is less of a good person now than she was before (at least in my mind) because she had reason to be greedy before (saving her father). Now we show that she is just greedy. yes, that will not spark a good vs evil debate, do you know why? because what your talking about has nothing to do with good and evil, but has every thing to do with law vs chaos... and, yes, what she is doing is very chaotic.
edit: theft is not inherently good or evil, it can be used for either one.

[Nimrod's Son]

No need to pick apart a Simpsons reference... :smallfrown:
Dude, there was a ":smalltongue:" in that post, y'know.

Anyways, if you reference anything from The Simpsons that didn't happen in the first ten seasons, you deserve everything you get. :smallwink:

[Felixc-91]

Dude, there was a ":smalltongue:" in that post, y'know.

Anyways, if you reference anything from The Simpsons that didn't happen in the first ten seasons, you deserve everything you get. :smallwink: first ten, really? i thought it was more like the first five...:smallsmile:

edit:

{scrubbed the original, scrub the quote}
seriusly? was that really necessary?

[Velaryon]

I feel like I am the only one who feels like Haley is totally in the wrong with everything she's doing and saying in this installment. There has been nothing to suggest to Elan that her father is still alive, so running off to the jails is problematic at best. Plus, even if she gets him out, we saw how well received escape attempts were received. What we know now is this: Elan's father is willing to do just about anything for his son, that he is still willing to help them with their quest, and that he knew that his son was running to tell his friends what he had just learned. What about that sequence of knowledge suggests it is a good idea to run off half-cocked.

It probably wasn't a rationally arrived-at decision. This is her dad, whom she's been trying to save up to ransom for two years. Given what she learned at the mapmaker's tent about the rapid turnover of kingdoms, Haley has probably been wondering lately whether her dad is even alive.

Also, remember that Haley is not at all a trusting person. She thought Tarquin was bad news from the get go - why would she now decide to up and ask him to let her dad go? If anything, Haley would expect Tarquin to use that knowledge against her and Elan rather than help them.


Plus, without sparking up a good vs. evil debate, Haley isn't acting/speaking as though she is good aligned. It is clear that she knows that her father is a thief. Given that fact, she must have known that there was a good chance that her father was legally arrested. Despite that, she was planning on freeing him from prison and then stealing back the money. None of which strikes me as good.

Heck, she is less of a good person now than she was before (at least in my mind) because she had reason to be greedy before (saving her father). Now we show that she is just greedy.

It's really more of a law vs. chaos than a good vs. evil thing. Haley is Chaotic Good, and I would say she is probably Chaotic first, Good second.

Besides, this is an EVIL empire in the most over-the-top way possible. Obeying all the rules here is probably not something anybody should reasonably expect from a CG character at any time, but especially in a place like this.

[The MunchKING]

Plus, without sparking up a good vs. evil debate, Haley isn't acting/speaking as though she is good aligned. It is clear that she knows that her father is a thief. Given that fact, she must have known that there was a good chance that her father was legally arrested. Despite that, she was planning on freeing him from prison and then stealing back the money. None of which strikes me as good.

Busting someone out of jail who's been "legally arrested" isn't Good/Evil so much as Law/Chaos.

Good/Evil would depend more on what laws arrested them and why you're breaking them out.

Whether it was a legal arrest or vengece or kidnapping for Ransom, or even caring would be more along the Law/Chaos axis.

[Swordpriest]

"Following the law blindly no matter what it is" =/= good.

If some tyrant passes a law stating that everyone with green eyes should be buried alive because someone with green eyes tried to assassinate him, and your spouse happens to have green eyes, does that mean that you're suddenly evil if you don't reach for shovel, and instead try to smuggle them out of the country without anyone else seeing their eye color? :smallconfused:

I'd think that good characters -- lawful, neutral, or chaotic -- would be pretty much obliged to resist evil laws. That's why D&D distinguishes between LG, LN, and LE -- otherwise, we'd just have the alignment "Lawful".

Or, to put it another way, "Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?" :smallwink:

[faustin]

That´s the awful question for a Lawful Good Character. Sometimes, you must choose between follow the "Law" or the "Good", and wathever your election, face the consequences. That´s the reason for what it´s the most difficult alignment.
And that´s another good reason for have partners with others alignments, because they can go the "easy path" or give you another perspective (Haley "shell game" in Azure city or V disintegrate+gust of wind, for example)

[Swordpriest]

That´s the awful question for a Lawful Good Character. Sometimes, you must choose between follow the "Law" or the "Good", and wathever your election, face the consequences. That´s the reason for what it´s the most difficult alignment.


Personally, I think you're overthinking the angst a bit. O-Chul and Redcloak are both Lawful, and even have a slight understanding of how the other one thinks because of that, but they have no problem rejecting each other's systems entirely and without a qualm. IMO, Good/Evil is a much bigger divide than Law/Chaos.

[factotum]

"Following the law blindly no matter what it is" =/= good.


"Following the law blindly no matter what it is" is not Lawful, either, despite what many people seem to think. A Lawful person follows their own code, and while they'll probably try to keep within local law if possible, they're not going to do so if it conflicts with their own ethics. Miko would be a prime example here--she was intent on following the laws of Azure City, and would do so no matter whether she was in a part of the world that also fell under that jurisdiction.

[Cerlis]

Well you got to remember that the Good/evil axis also modifies your law/chaos axis.

A lawful good person is probably lawful because they know that Good just laws will support good people and punish evil. Thats why a lawful good person like Roy will defy the law if it is an illegitimate authority or unjust law (also in the paladin code, what would be seen as the most strict code in DnD even says "Obey LEGITIMATE authority" i believe)

A Lawful Neutral person sees society as being better and more productive (for the whole or themselves) because it isnt chaotic and constantly in flux. They are perhaps the most Lawful because they want order for order's sake

Lawful Evil person sees enforcing the law as the most structured and guarenteed and sensible way to obtain what they want.

------------

But either way, none of them would willingly obey a law they thought was illegitimate. (Their other axis might determine how they react to it however)

[Burner28]

Haley has never acted as though there is anything wrong with stealing, except when Celia steals from her. You're only now noting this? More, you're noting this specifically to say you consider disregarding the laws of Tarquin's sociopathocracy "nongood"?

Exactly this is entirely within her character. Haley has always been lacking in honour. Heck she even implied (and by that I mean all but stated at one point) that she was a con artist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)

[HalfTangible]

"Following the law blindly no matter what it is" is not Lawful, either, despite what many people seem to think. A Lawful person follows their own code, and while they'll probably try to keep within local law if possible, they're not going to do so if it conflicts with their own ethics. Miko would be a prime example here--she was intent on following the laws of Azure City, and would do so no matter whether she was in a part of the world that also fell under that jurisdiction.
She explicitly stated 'the laws have no meaning' and expressed contempt, on numerous occasions, for the way the law worked, particularly when it let Belkar get a trial instead of being killed by her. Miko is probably as far from LG as you can get and still be considered LG.

Chaotics follow their own personal code, which is usually short and extremely flexible.

Lawful follows an extremely long, strict code and abide by tradition whenever possible.

[Trixie]

I feel like I am the only one who feels like Haley is totally in the wrong with everything she's doing and saying in this installment.

No, you're not.


Haley isn't acting/speaking as though she is good aligned. It is clear that she knows that her father is a thief.

Eh, we had this discussion so many times... :smallamused:

To me, she did not behaved like a good person even once, now she just lost a tiny fig leaf that might have explained her actions somehow. She did much worse stuff before, this is just the icing.

[Felixc-91]

I feel like I am the only one who feels like Haley is totally in the wrong with everything she's doing and saying in this installment. There has been nothing to suggest to Elan that her father is still alive, so running off to the jails is problematic at best. Plus, even if she gets him out, we saw how well received escape attempts were received. What we know now is this: Elan's father is willing to do just about anything for his son, that he is still willing to help them with their quest, and that he knew that his son was running to tell his friends what he had just learned. What about that sequence of knowledge suggests it is a good idea to run off half-cocked. :smallsigh: ok, first off, not knowing whether Ian is still alive or not is not an argument for not looking for him, its actually the exact opposite because if he is alive and she doesn't find him, its quiet possible he will die. about asking Tarquin for help. we still don't have reason to fully trust him. he speaks in what others have dubbed "Jedi truths" meaning that what he says is usually technically true. the problem with that kind of speech is you have to be careful to assume absolutely nothing about what is implied. he may have said that he is willing to help with their quest, but does releasing her father from jail pertain to their quest? technically no. we also know that he is willing to cross moral boundaries set hardened titanium. finally, Half-cockled? how does her carefully thought out plan about why going after Tarquin right now seem half-cocked? its also clear from the length of the previous comic, that the conversation about what happened on the roof top was a long one, giving her plenty of time to think about what she is going to do.

[shadowkiller]

he may have said that he is willing to help with their quest

His exact words were he would discuss it with them. That does not mean he will tell them anything useful.

[Tobimaro]

Some people got to have it
Heh Heh!
Some people really need it
Listen to me
Y'all, do things, do things, do bad things with it
Well
You wanna do things, do things, do things, good things with it
Talk about cash money, money
Talk about cash money
Dollar bills y'all

*bass*

For the love of money!


Huh? What the

Gotta love the O'Jays. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll3uipTO-4A)

[Felixc-91]

His exact words were he would discuss it with them. That does not mean he will tell them anything useful. i was actually talking about here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0762.html) where he offers supplies and the like.
edit: but your right, he never promised to actually tell them anything useful

[factotum]

She explicitly stated 'the laws have no meaning'

Only after her entire world-view was destroyed when she found out Shojo had been lying to her. As for expressing contempt for the way the law works, care to show examples? I don't remember any.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Haley has a loose set of morals but they're strong ones. Otherwise she'd have given up and just had Varsuvius work on that soul binding magic by now. Though, personally, since that imp introduced book of vile darkness evil spell component rules, to be safe I'd burn up the souls as components(for 250 XP towards item enchantment probably) thus effectively erasing them from existence and denying them not only resurrection but an afterlife. The only drawback is that I suspect doing this too often may get you attacked by whoever was supposed to get those souls. Oh and it's incredibly evil, worse than murder.
I can only assume Xykon doesn't bother with this second step on the souls he's trapped because he wants to prolong their suffering.

[Burner28]

No, you're not.



Eh, we had this discussion so many times... :smallamused:

To me, she did not behaved like a good person even once, now she just lost a tiny fig leaf that might have explained her actions somehow. She did much worse stuff before, this is just the icing.

Well, I always considered her an antihero just so you know:smallsmile:

[The Succubus]

I know there have been a lot of theories about Haley being part celestial. I'm more inclined to believe that she is actually part dragon, given her liking for frolicking on large piles of gold.

[cildan]

I can't exactly remember where I saw this but doesn't Haley state that she is Chaotic Good'ish.

[Emperor Flumph]

Some people on this forum have a weird definition of good.
From the beginning of the comic, Haley had acted like a Chaotic Good character. She puts the emphasis on the Chaotic, but that doesn't mean she isn't Good as well. She's certainly never done anything that could be construed as evil and her compassionate behaviour both to her friends and to strangers definitely puts her in the good camp.
Several of you seem to be operating under the misapprehension that chaos=evil and law=good. Neither is even close to true.

[Burner28]

Some people on this forum have a weird definition of good.
From the beginning of the comic, Haley had acted like a Chaotic Good character. She puts the emphasis on the Chaotic, but that doesn't mean she isn't Good as well. She's certainly never done anything that could be construed as evil and her compassionate behaviour both to her friends and to strangers definitely puts her in the good camp.
Several of you seem to be operating under the misapprehension that chaos=evil and law=good. Neither is even close to true.

I think their problem is more to do with theft itslef though rather than her being a lawbreaker.

[Emperor Flumph]

I think their problem is more to do with theft itslef though rather than her being a lawbreaker.
I don't see the distinction.

[Burner28]

I don't see the distinction. What I meant to say though I don't think their problem is the fact that she breaks the law itself . More like specifically what law she breaks. I hope you understand what I am trying to say

[Conuly]

She's certainly never done anything that could be construed as evil.

She murdered what's-her-face in cold blood. This was a sensible and pragmatic act, we know that Crystal was going to (try to) kill her otherwise, but it surely wasn't *good*.

[Emperor Flumph]

What I meant to say though I don't think their problem is the fact that she breaks the law itself . More like specifically what law she breaks. I hope you understand what I am trying to say
Ah, I see where you're coming from. Breaking pointless or tyrannical laws is one thing, but Haley takes other people's property for herself, an act of blatant selfish greed which could certainly be construed as evil.
Fair point, but doing evil deeds doesn't automatically make you evil. She may not be as good as Roy or Elan, but in the balance of things, Haley is definitely good. See her treatment of the Azurite soldiers, the dirt farmers, and the slaves in the Empire of Blood. Selfless, charitable behaviour. She may sometimes slip up morality-wise, but being good doesn't require being perfect.

[Trixie]

Some people on this forum have a weird definition of good.

Yes, for example, we don't consider Belkar/Thog/V good. Weird, right? :smallwink:


From the beginning of the comic, Haley had acted like a Chaotic Good character.

From the beginning, she was fine with: thievery (even on her own party, no less), deceit, murder, slavery and a few other things, as long as they lined her pockets. I named only the things everyone considers evil, if you add things that majority (75% of population) agrees are evil that list will be easily five times as long.

Even she doesn't consider herself good, which given the size of her delusions speaks volumes about what she was able to confirm to herself she wasn't.

[Burner28]

Yes, for example, we don't consider Belkar/Thog/V good. Weird, right? :smallwink:



From the beginning, she was fine with: thievery (even on her own party, no less), deceit, murder, slavery and a few other things, as long as they lined her pockets. I named only the things everyone considers evil, if you add things that majority (75% of population) agrees are evil that list will be easily five times as long.

Even she doesn't consider herself good, which given the size of her delusions speaks volumes about what she was able to confirm to herself she wasn't.

Wait she doesn't consider herself good?

[Emperor Flumph]

She murdered what's-her-face in cold blood. This was a sensible and pragmatic act, we know that Crystal was going to (try to) kill her otherwise, but it surely wasn't *good*.
This is an interesting issue. Almost every good character is seen to kill enemies at one point or another. In the case of the Order, many of them have racked up sizeable body counts. The alignment system must allow for a person to kill people who are a threat to their life while still maintaining a good alignment.
This is a special case because Haley specifically waited until Crystal was unnarmed before she attacked. It was a dishonourable thing to do, but I see this as a law vs. chaos issue rather than a good vs. evil one. I try to imagine Haley letting Crystal know beforehand that she was going to attack and letting her pick up her dagger, and it doesn't work. It conflicts with her chaotic nature rather than her position on the good-evil axis.

[Emperor Flumph]

Yes, for example, we don't consider Belkar/Thog/V good. Weird, right? :smallwink:
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Are you asking if I consider these characters good, or assuming that I do, or simply stating your position in a bizarrely random way?


From the beginning, she was fine with: thievery (even on her own party, no less), deceit, murder, slavery and a few other things, as long as they lined her pockets. I named only the things everyone considers evil, if you add things that majority (75% of population) agrees are evil that list will be easily five times as long.

Even she doesn't consider herself good, which given the size of her delusions speaks volumes about what she was able to confirm to herself she wasn't.
Let's tackle these one at a time.
Thievery and deceit do not make someone evil. Those are traits of a chaotic alignment. Please familiarize yourself more with the alignment system.
Every character in the Order is okay with murder. They are seen to dispose of multiple enemies all the time. By your logic, almost no one in the entire comic has a good alignment.
Haley entertained the idea of slavery for all of a few seconds. She later freed many slaves at great personal risk while gaining nothing. I suppose I should congratulate you for never having fantasized about performing actions that conflict with your moral code. The rest of us don't have your mental discipline.

[Trixie]

Wait she doesn't consider herself good?

She shouted: Chaotic Good! adding Ish! when that lie proved to be too great. Had she considered herself this, the addendum would be unnecessary.


This is a special case because Haley specifically waited until Crystal was unnarmed before she attacked.

With a clear desire stated pre-deed to rob her corpse later. No matter how you look at it, someone who waits until victim is defenseless then kills naked girl to steal her jewelry is considered utter monster in most moral systems. Triply so if it is a man.


It was a dishonourable thing to do, but I see this as a law vs. chaos issue rather than a good vs. evil one.

How so? Chaotic character can easily allow the enemy to defend themselves, on a whim, or because he considers that the right thing to do. But, for that, you need to actually be good.


I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Long before you joined, people used to wonder why others do not consider Belkar/Thog good. The debates were so heated that Rich himself had to state their alignment on the board.


Thievery and deceit do not make someone evil. Those are traits of a chaotic alignment.

Yes they do. Thief is a parasite living off the welfare of others. You can easily do more harm to someone taking their possessions than by doing them bodily harm.


Every character in the Order is okay with murder. They are seen to dispose of multiple enemies all the time. By your logic, almost no one in the entire comic has a good alignment.

That is the point the comic makes the entire time - killing is evil. Sometimes, it is neutral, but it is never good.

Even Deva judging Roy admitted that killing Belkar was wrong/evil thing to do, and that the Roy picked right patch.


Haley entertained the idea of slavery for all of a few seconds.

Until she was publicly berated, you mean? Belkar also hides his desires these days, yet, he is not good as well.


She later freed many slaves at great personal risk while gaining nothing.

I saw her showing a finger to Tarquin out of boredom and basically dumping them without any care as soon as they left the palace. She didn't even spare 5 copper pieces to buy them clothes or food. It was her fault they were so easily caught again.

There are many possible motives for this, most of them non-good. In a place where she could do a real difference, Greysky, she behaved exactly as bad as the rest of the guild.

She can be good, I don't doubt, but until now, every single of her deeds could have been that of CN, or even CE character, and I haven't seen even a iota of evidence she, like Roy or Hinjo, tries to follow the right patch. On the contrary, her job is specifically causing the misery of others, including her teammates.

[Swordpriest]

This is an interesting issue. Almost every good character is seen to kill enemies at one point or another. In the case of the Order, many of them have racked up sizeable body counts. The alignment system must allow for a person to kill people who are a threat to their life while still maintaining a good alignment.
This is a special case because Haley specifically waited until Crystal was unnarmed before she attacked. It was a dishonourable thing to do, but I see this as a law vs. chaos issue rather than a good vs. evil one. I try to imagine Haley letting Crystal know beforehand that she was going to attack and letting her pick up her dagger, and it doesn't work. It conflicts with her chaotic nature rather than her position on the good-evil axis.

Yes, it is an interesting issue, and you have an interesting take on it, as well. It's something that I still can't make up my mind about (which I suppose shows that part of my alignment, at least, is neutral :smallbiggrin:).

[Burner28]

She shouted: Chaotic Good! adding Ish! when that lie proved to be too great. Had she considered herself this, the addendum would be unnecessary.
Wait when??



With a clear desire stated pre-deed to rob her corpse later. No matter how you look at it, someone who waits until victim is defenseless then kills naked girl to steal her jewelry is considered utter monster in most moral systems. Triply so if it is a man.

Wait the victim or the perpetrator?



There are many possible motives for this, most of them non-good. In a place where she could do a real difference, Greysky, she behaved exactly as bad as the rest of the guild.

Okay how is Haley just as bad as Crystal, Hank,Bozzok and the rest of the Thieves Guild?

[Trixie]

Wait when??

Look for the 'deciphering' thread, it's good :smallwink:


Wait the victim or the perpetrator?

The killer, of course. Was I unclear?


Okay how is Haley just as bad as Crystal, Hank,Bozzok and the rest of the Thieves Guild?

Um... because she did the exact same things?

Plus, alignment grid is big. Two CN characters can be diametrically different, especially if one is slightly evil, strongly chaotic, while the other is evil while being slightly chaotic.

Roy, Miko, Hinjo and the dwarf share LG alignment, yet have almost nothing in common besides trying to do good and adhering to codes of conduct.

[Burner28]

The killer, of course. Was I unclear?



That doesn't make any sense. Why is it worse if you are a man:smallconfused:


Um... because she did the exact same things?

Really? Because I don't remember?


Plus, alignment grid is big. Two CN characters can be diametrically different, especially if one is slightly evil, strongly chaotic, while the other is evil while being slightly chaotic.

Don't you mean CE?:smalltongue:

Roy, Miko, Hinjo and the dwarf share LG alignment, yet have almost nothing in common besides trying to do good and adhering to codes of conduct.

Hey.. You know the line.. Alignment is not a straightjacket:smallamused:

[Trixie]

That doesn't make any sense. Why is it worse if you are a man:smallconfused:

Call it hypocrisy, public perception of sexes, or any other of a hundred names, but a man killing naked woman in a shower to rob her (or worse) will always be seen as much worse criminal than woman doing the deed. Mostly due to the... various overtones.

If that happened in a real life, there would be virtually no sympathy for the criminal coupled with cries for blood. Yet, the exact same deed in fiction done by woman and for many it is something completely different.


Really? Because I don't remember?

Ech, seventeen year membership, reinforced by adopting their behavior when she returned. She wasn't as bad as dedicated assassin Krystal, yes, but near Bozzok/others? Very much so.


Don't you mean CE?:smalltongue:


Yes :P

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[RndmNumGen]

I still think Haley would be CG, though she is certainly pushing the good-neutral barrier. While she is extremely greedy, I wouldn't say she is completely selfish and individualistic like Neutral people are supposed to be. Even though she struggles with doing the right thing sometimes, she shows a genuine desire to help others, as evidenced by helping the dirt farmers, leading the resistance in Azure City, freeing the slaves in the Empire of Blood, and of course questing to stop Xykon. Sure, she slips up sometimes, but I wouldn't say that makes her neutral - she's still trying to be good.

[Emperor Flumph]

Trixie, I think the reason we can't agree on this is because you're talking about real-world morals and I'm talking about a fictional alignment system. Those who created it did their best to give it verisimilitude, but it will never live up to the standards to which you hold it.
Real people often can't be classified this way and people who live in a universe that uses this system can't be assessed by the same standards real people are.
The fact is, the world of OOTS proves time and time again that you can kill many, many sentient creatures and still maintain a good alignment. Otherwise all adventurers would be evil.
The same goes for theft.
I also think you have a specific grudge against Haley that's colouring your judgement. You don't hold any of the other characters to the same standards as her, or you would be denying all of them a good alignment. Your assumption that Haley was serious about selling Samantha and only recanted because of Roy's disapproval is one interpretation of that scene, and an overly serious one at that considering it was played for laughs. Yet you act like it's the only way to see it.
Freeing slaves out of boredom? Seriously? You're really reaching on that one.
Your assertion that Haley acted the same as the ther guild members is totally fallacious as well. You forget that they were the aggressors, she killed only in self-defense (Crystal included). She never stooped to tactics that Bozzok used, demanding that allies sacrifice themselves for a momentary tactical advantage. In fact, she went out of her way to protect Celia, someone she didn't even like.
A final thought: since you brought up the bureaucratic deva, do you remember what her final assessment of Roy was? That he had made mistakes, but he was trying. Every one of Haley's actions shows that she is still trying, from her kindness to two random farmers to her leadership of the Azurite resistance (which was the first instance of her freeing slaves, btw; remember her argument with Belkar about freedom vs. transfer of ownership? I suppose she was just bored there too). She isn't a perfect exemplar of goodness, not by a long shot. But it's what she's aiming for. Within the moral parameters of a fictional world which uses an alignment system, she has shown many many times that she is striving for good, no matter how hard you try to interpret her actions otherwise.

[Maxios]

I just found a discussion thread for OOTS on another forum. Granted it's for the last strip...but
Link (http://alliancelarp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9346)

Also, I can't wait to see what Haley's father looks like now! This is getting really interesting :smallbiggrin:

[Dancing_Fox]

Also, I can't wait to see what Haley's father looks like now! This is getting really interesting :smallbiggrin:

(Haven't checked the other link - but good find and thanks for posting.)

I think you can just flick a few strips back to see what Ian Starshine looks like "now" when he shakes hands with Roy in the dungeon. Not likely to be much change since then! :smallwink:

[Trixie]

Trixie, I think the reason we can't agree on this is because you're talking about real-world morals and I'm talking about a fictional alignment system.

Pardon me, but I cannot consider behavior that would be considered monstrous in real world 'good' in any way.

This 'fictional' alignment system is largely the same as ours, despite a few attempts at non-alienation of hack&slash player group.


The fact is, the world of OOTS proves time and time again that you can kill many, many sentient creatures and still maintain a good alignment.

As I said, it can be neutral. It's the rest of you that decides you're good.


The same goes for theft.

Name one situation where it would be good.


You don't hold any of the other characters to the same standards as her, or you would be denying all of them a good alignment.

Believe me, if I met Durkon in real life I would not consider what he displayed to be LG, either. In fact, I fail to see any of them to be good, save for Roy, who is trying, and Elan's naive do-gooding.


Your assumption that Haley was serious about selling Samantha and only recanted because of Roy's disapproval is one interpretation of that scene, and an overly serious one at that considering it was played for laughs.

I tried to give her pass a few dozen times. It ended when she maimed one of the Oracle's riddle-givers to force the answer to riddle V already deciphered, just to cut a few seconds.


Freeing slaves out of boredom? Seriously? You're really reaching on that one.

I don't. Had she stopped for a second, thinking what the slaves will do once they're freed, yes, that would have been good act. She doesn't, she dumps them naked and in slave rags once she was bored.

It is almost as if she wanted retribution to reach them. There's a reason why her behavior was called stupid/malicious good dozens of times when people discussed that strip.


Your assertion that Haley acted the same as the ther guild members is totally fallacious as well.

I meant her 17 years of preying on city's population.


You forget that they were the aggressors, she killed only in self-defense (Crystal included).

She was the aggressor in other places, like Dragon's den or the dungeons OotS raided.


That he had made mistakes, but he was trying.

Sorry, but as someone stated in one of the threads before - that's the kind of attempts Belkar is now doing. He is still evil, he masks himself by doing good deeds. When character's first instinct is thievery or violence, sorry, they're not trying hard enough.


Every one of Haley's actions shows that she is still trying, from her kindness to two random farmers to her leadership of the Azurite resistance

Farmers were one good act, okay. But, would she have helped them if not for them reminding Haley of her parents?

As for resistance, she merely banded with them for survival, and made no effort to link with the other groups, despite her skills being uniquely suited to find/convince them. In fact, she continued to keep resistance fragmented, when all she had to do was to step down for the common good and become second in command of one of the other groups.


(which was the first instance of her freeing slaves, btw; remember her argument with Belkar about freedom vs. transfer of ownership? I suppose she was just bored there too)

No, that dispute is argument against you. How come she and Belkar spend 6 months there before having that talk? If Belkar doesn't know what she wants to do with the slaves, she hadn't freed even one before.

Ech, ok, that was my last post on this, before we turn that thread into alignment discussion. Please think on what I've said and try to understand my position.

[Swordpriest]

The fact is, the world of OOTS proves time and time again that you can kill many, many sentient creatures and still maintain a good alignment. Otherwise all adventurers would be evil.


See, now I don't see killing as being automatically an evil act. I tend to think of it as neutral, with the reason either making it evil or keeping it at neutral. Killing opponents who are trying to kill you is neither good nor evil, unless there are extenuating or damning circumstances.

The fact is that adventurers, IMO, aren't evil by our morals either as they're usually portrayed, unless our morals have grown so divorced from reality that killing enemies who are raiding and slaughtering your fellow countrymen has become an evil act.

Everyone always likes to say that they kill orcs, goblins, etc. "just because they have green skin", whereas in every adventure I've ever played in, the orcs/goblins/etc. needed killing because they were attacking the people in the area, and there's no real way to arrest an armed, hostile warband and bring it to trial -- you might be able to take a few survivors prisoner to bring back to the local noble for hanging, but you're going to have to fight first. Or lie down and let the goblinoids cut your throat and move on to pillage the town.

So, if adventurers kill to achieve good ends, they're good people in a rough world. Finding a non-violent solution is great, but sometimes a sword is all that stands between your character and certain death.

So, to return to the original killing -- I guess it comes down to whether or not dishonorable killing is evil. Crystal was a threat to Haley -- it was a kill or be killed situation -- but would it have been more good if Haley had called her out and killed her in a fair fight, rather than murdering her in her shower?

My reason is trying to tell me that Haley would just have been starting the whole battle all over again if she dueled Crystal, and actually saved lives by taking the course she did, but my gut is telling me that she committed an evil act because of the way she went about the matter. It was definitely cold-blooded, and more of a murder/execution than a battle situation, and the fact that she chortled over looting her corpse before actually killing her makes it a bit more villainous.

Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but although Haley's stealing doesn't particularly bother me, at least not to the extent of some of the posters here who seem to be livid about it, Crystal's death still sticks in my craw badly.

[Cerlis]

you are really nitpicking at a few extreme examples.

If the "Haley isnt CG" side's theories are true then Roy and Durkon are also evil. They murder and loot as a profession. At least before she adventured Haley Stole from people who could afford to be stolen from, or who deserved it, or to teach a lesson. She named herself a theif, she carries a Sap. The only people shes ever layed a mortal hand on is people trying to kill her

And by the same token, Belkar and Xykon are non evil. Sure Haley does MANY good things and tries to be good, but she happens to do a questionable act that only hurts evil people or doesnt really hurt anyone and suddenly shes non-good. Well Xykon gives pretty much any rival a chance to leave, and survive. Belkar has been fighting evil for 700 strips. If one or two questionable neutral acts can disqualify you from being good, then none of the party is good, and pretty much every villian is at worst neutral.


Haley: Tries to save the world. Kills evil creatures, Steals from Evil creatures. Steals from people who have excess money and probably dont deserve to keep the money, Provides emotional support to her friends, Helps her friends. Helps people in need. Risks her life for strangers in need.
Haley is a greedy little theif, but shes a good greedy little thief.

[Goonthegoof]

With a clear desire stated pre-deed to rob her corpse later. No matter how you look at it, someone who waits until victim is defenseless then kills naked girl to steal her jewelry is considered utter monster in most moral systems. Triply so if it is a man.

I really don't see why Crystal's death is such a big issue. If while in a dungeon Haley found an orc who was well known to be a malicious killer of the innocent, hid in the shadows and waited until he was at his most vulnerable to kill him and afterwards took his magic items there would be no objections. Good rogues do that kind of thing all the time, it's expected of them. Why then is killing Crystal when she's defenseless (Crystal was an unrepentant murderer, at least as bad as the sterotypical pillaging orc) and taking her stuff a bad thing?

Also how the hell would it have been any worse an action if Haley was male? That doesn't make any sense.

[Conuly]

Fair point, but doing evil deeds doesn't automatically make you evil.

But does doing good deeds automatically make you good?

[Cerlis]

where is a link to Rich's comment about belkar.

[G-Man Graves]

I really don't see why Crystal's death is such a big issue. If while in a dungeon Haley found an orc who was well known to be a malicious killer of the innocent, hid in the shadows and waited until he was at his most vulnerable to kill him and afterwards took his magic items there would be no objections. Good rogues do that kind of thing all the time, it's expected of them. Why then is killing Crystal when she's defenseless (Crystal was an unrepentant murderer, at least as bad as the sterotypical pillaging orc) and taking her stuff a bad thing?

Also how the hell would it have been any worse an action if Haley was male? That doesn't make any sense.

Crystal was a beaten foe, and Haley went out of here way to kill her. I would say killing anyone in such a fashion would be pushing neutral. I find the best way to go about this sort of thing is to think "Would a paladin do it?" If not, probably not a good act.

[Goonthegoof]

Crystal was a beaten foe, and Haley went out of here way to kill her. I would say killing anyone in such a fashion would be pushing neutral. I find the best way to go about this sort of thing is to think "Would a paladin do it?" If not, probably not a good act.

That's a terrible barometer- Paladins are restricted further in their actions than a typical lawful good character, and I can think of hundreds of things a paladin wouldn't do that would qualify as a good act- For example, imagine a really nasty person became king and started doing the usual tyrant king stuff, ie executing anyone who disagreed with him, taxing families beyond poverty, needless wars etc.
Sneaking in and assassinating said king would be completely against the paladin's code, but nevertheless it would be a good act.

Yes, Crystal was a beaten foe, but if Haley didn't kill her then she would continue to kill others, and there was not really any other method of stopping her.

[Warren Dew]

At least before she adventured Haley Stole from people who could afford to be stolen from, or who deserved it, or to teach a lesson.
Anyone "can afford to be stolen from" - they can always become beggars. Basically you're claiming that theft is not evil. I don't think that's much more reasonable than a claim that murder is not evil.

[The MunchKING]

Name one situation where it would be good.

The Robin-Hood esque "Steal from the rich greedy people who are extorting money unjustly and give it back to the poor".




I tried to give her pass a few dozen times. It ended when she maimed one of the Oracle's riddle-givers to force the answer to riddle V already deciphered, just to cut a few seconds.

V didn't have the answer, V was just jawing up on how she was going to figure it out. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html)


I don't. Had she stopped for a second, thinking what the slaves will do once they're freed, yes, that would have been good act. She doesn't, she dumps them naked and in slave rags once she was bored.

"Bored" as apposed to "in the mountains and in theroy capable of getting away"? She had to make it back in time not to get caught for it.


She was the aggressor in other places, like Dragon's den or the dungeons OotS raided.

So was everyone ELSE on the team.




Farmers were one good act, okay. But, would she have helped them if not for them reminding Haley of her parents?

She never said ANYTHING about them reminding her of her parents, and in fact from what we saw of them, they were almost totally unlike Haley's parents in every possible way.


As for resistance, she merely banded with them for survival, and made no effort to link with the other groups, despite her skills being uniquely suited to find/convince them. In fact, she continued to keep resistance fragmented, when all she had to do was to step down for the common good and become second in command of one of the other groups.

She didn't try to contact the other groups because THEY WANTED TO KILL HER, and infighting would only hep the hobgoblins.

She spent all her money and risked her life numerous times to make the resistance work.




No, that dispute is argument against you. How come she and Belkar spend 6 months there before having that talk? If Belkar doesn't know what she wants to do with the slaves, she hadn't freed even one before.

Or Belkar needs "Reminding" occasionally. As he does EVERY time Good gets in the way of him taking it easy and having some fun.

[The MunchKING]

Anyone "can afford to be stolen from" - they can always become beggars.

I think the implied ending to that was "Without effecting their standard of living". The rich just somewhat less-rich but still don't have to stoop to a 9-5 job at Subway or anything.

[squiremarcus]

well, at the very least we can eliminate evil from the choices, given this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) so she definitely isn't equal to some of the other thieves.

[Warren Dew]

I think the implied ending to that was "Without effecting their standard of living". The rich just somewhat less-rich but still don't have to stoop to a 9-5 job at Subway or anything.
One could just as easily say "the poor will just be somewhat more-poor but they'll still have their 9-5 jobs at Subway and such" in justifying theft from the poor.

[Aldrakan]

V didn't have the answer, V was just jawing up on how she was going to figure it out. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html)


While I agree with most of your points, that's not necessarily the case. I don't know if you'd noticed this, but V kinda likes to talk. He might have worked it out and was taking his time getting to it to impress them with every step of his reasoning, he might have just been enthusiastic about it. It seems unlikely that he wouldn't have been able to solve it given a minute or two, I think at this level V probably has superhuman intelligence.

Frankly it doesn't really matter, she still shot someone in the leg because she couldn't be bothered waiting for them to solve a riddle.

[The MunchKING]

One could just as easily say "the poor will just be somewhat more-poor but they'll still have their 9-5 jobs at Subway and such" in justifying theft from the poor.

You can't steal much from the poor and keep them above beggars. You can steal a lot from rich people and they'll still be rich.

especially in a midevil based society where alot of the rich people are rich because they are land-owners and thus have non-stealable assets, but that's getting a bit far afield.


While I agree with most of your points, that's not necessarily the case. I don't know if you'd noticed this, but V kinda likes to talk.

Well that was my point. V was going to sit around and yak until she worked out, while Haley had already worked out how to make it work. Although really if you aren't limited to one question then it takes all the challenge out of it.

Besides, it was hardly "maiming". a glacing shot in the foot from and ordinary arrow? that's a CLW at best.

[Swordpriest]

Interesting -- I didn't realize the intensity of anti-Haley sentiment among part of the fan base.

[Felixc-91]

One could just as easily say "the poor will just be somewhat more-poor but they'll still have their 9-5 jobs at Subway and such" in justifying theft from the poor. wrong, you steal from the poor, they miss out on something, like feeding every one, or getting medical attention/treatment, or having warm enough clothes. you can't make that argument about the poor because they are using all or most of their money, using in a necessary way.

[Aldrakan]

Well that was my point. V was going to sit around and yak until she worked out, while Haley had already worked out how to make it work. Although really if you aren't limited to one question then it takes all the challenge out of it.

Besides, it was hardly "maiming". a glacing shot in the foot from and ordinary arrow? that's a CLW at best.

Did I say maiming? Anyway, the fact that you're probably not permanently injuring them doesn't make shooting someone to save yourself like 3 minutes that much better. If a guy's holding up the queue deciding their order do knee them in the groin and shove them out the way? Because being shot with an arrow probably hurts more than that.

[Felixc-91]

where is a link to Rich's comment about belkar. that he's evil? well, i can't do that but i have something almost as good. the character stating that he is chaotic evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html), in a place where there is no reason to lie (he's talking to a hallucination/ghost where no one can here him).

Interesting -- I didn't realize the intensity of anti-Haley sentiment among part of the fan base.
there isn't, so far, its three people. one of which is willing to fill pages making the argument.

[The MunchKING]

Did I say maiming?

No, Trixie did.

[Dancing_Fox]

Request:

Could we just quit the alignment discussion, already? It doesn't even make up the core of Strip 765.

Get another thread if needed. :smallsmile:

[Emperor Flumph]

Ech, ok, that was my last post on this, before we turn that thread into alignment discussion. Please think on what I've said and try to understand my position.
Good call. We've both made our cases extensively. Any further and we'd just be beating a dead horse. But please understand that my disagreement with you has never come from a misunderstanding of your position. I understand perfectly where you're coming from. I just think you're completely wrong.

[Felixc-91]

Good call. We've both made our cases extensively. Any further and we'd just be beating a dead horse. But please understand that my disagreement with you has never come from a misunderstanding of your position. I understand perfectly where you're coming from. I just think you're completely wrong. cheers mate, and if this is the first time you've had this issue, welcome to the club.
:roach: for the public: People can be so baseline opposed to each other that on subjects they will not ever agree. its happens. learn to recognize situations like these and when to stop, it will help. (and now back to your regularly scheduled discussion)

[Kish]

where is a link to Rich's comment about belkar.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6496

[Trixie]

To address but two points:


The Robin-Hood esque "Steal from the rich greedy people who are extorting money unjustly and give it back to the poor".

In the original, non-Hollywood version of Robin Hood, the rich simply extracted the money back by force. Robin wasn't that good either, he robbed innocents, too, and was perfectly aware he was increasing the plight of people, and he wasn't giving them that much, anyway, he took most of it for himself. The few times he genuinely cared, he preyed on rich people weak enough to be scared by his threat of retribution if they take that back.

He was CN at best, and yet, he was still better than Haley, as he never stole from his own people or children, he gave part of the money to the poor, and never maimed anyone for fun.


V didn't have the answer.

I can solve that in about two seconds, and I most certainly don't have scrying spells or 22+ Int V has.


***

Eh, let's see what the person in question says about herself:

Exhibit A (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html); Miko asks about committed crimes; Haley confirms she is indeed guilty.


Exhibit B (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0204.html); Belkar's and Haley's way of dealing with paladin is execution; guess what genuinely good character has to say about that?

So, we have a character who can be described as liar, thief, who routinely breaks into people's homes and kills them to rob their possessions, who steals from her own party (at least three times, at that), people who saved her life dozens of times, cop-killer (and a good cop who was named such by unambiguously good deity), who maims people for basically no reason. How is that good, exactly?

Even Krystal wasn't a threat anymore, seeing how she would never find Haley on the other continent, and even if she did, Krystal taking on 6 people stronger than herself would be suicidal. Frankly, I expect that murder will explode into OotS faces down the road just like familicide will.

I'm having flashbacks to all these Belkar and Thog are CG threads :smallamused:

[hamishspence]

So, we have a character who can be described as liar, thief, who routinely breaks into people's homes and kills them to rob their possessions,

Since when? One Krystal incident, does not equate to "routinely breaks into people's homes and kills them to rob their possessions".

Now, adventuring might possibly count- but that may depend on if "monsters" count as "outlaws" from the point of view of society in a D&D world.

Does Haley "kill monsters to rob their possessions" or

"kill monsters that are trying to kill her, and take their possessions once they've been slain?"

[Trixie]

Since when? One Krystal incident, does not equate to "routinely breaks into people's homes and kills them to rob their possessions".

Her entire career in the guild does.


Now, adventuring might possibly count- but that may depend on if "monsters" count as "outlaws" from the point of view of society in a D&D world.

That does, too, and from the point of morality, it doesn't count who you kill, but why you're doing it. Killing for monetary gain is plainly evil.


Does Haley "kill monsters to rob their possessions" or

"kill monsters that are trying to kill her, and take their possessions once they've been slain?"

They were defending themselves. She invaded their home, attacked them, then, when they attempted defense, killed them and robbed their possessions. It is no different from someone entering your house, killing you for defending your belongings, then robbing it.

But, they did even worse - they destroyed the bodies of the killed, negating any raise dead attempts. Remember mother dragon? Had she been human, almost everyone would have cheered for her. Or a certain Redcloak? He started fueling Xykon's rise to power to avenge all the civilians from his village killed for having the wrong skin and teeth. There would be no Xykon or Azure city siege if not for "good" people killing "lesser" species for lulz.

[factotum]

Her entire career in the guild does.

Er, proof please? The only time we ever saw Haley performing a Guild-sanctioned robbery was in "On the Origins of PCs", and she certainly didn't kill anyone there.

[Maquise]

...And the argument continues. Can we please get back on track?

So, how 'bout them jokes? I thought they were funny.

[hamishspence]

They were defending themselves. She invaded their home, attacked them, then, when they attempted defense, killed them and robbed their possessions. It is no different from someone entering your house, killing you for defending your belongings, then robbing it.

In the dirt farmer case, the intent wasn't to steal- but to rescue a kidnapped victim.

In the case of the Dungeon of Dorukan- the intent was to destroy a notorious villain- although at least in Haley's case, profiting as much as possible from the quest was a factor.

Still- even when she's kidnapped by a goblin teenager and knocks him out- she doesn't kill him- and he survives to warn Xykon.

But getting back to the current strip. Haley wants to rescue her dad- and the original "steal the money back later after ransoming Dad" plan seems to have been dropped.

[Emperor Flumph]

{scrubbed}

[Burner28]

What's Looter's Comp?

PS Would anyone argue with the notion that Haley's an antihero?

[The MunchKING]

What's Looter's Comp?

"Worker's Comp" is compesation pay you get if you're injured on the job and can't work.

I assume Looter's Comp is much the same thing but for theives. And as she wasn't injured but quit to help her dad, Looter's Comp won't cover her lost wages.

[Warren Dew]

PS Would anyone argue with the notion that Haley's an antihero?
I would argue with it. It's true that Haley has done a lot of evil acts, as Trixie points out, but most of them are years in the past when she was a professional thief, and she's done substantially more important good acts since. I do think that her current course of action is the wrong one, but not in the sense that it's evil - just in the sense that it's foolish.

Also, in terms of how she behaves, Haley seems to act a lot more heroically than antiheroically, with generally bold and direct behavior.

I personally see her alignment as chaotic neutral, but I definitely see her as a hero and not an antihero.

[Aurabolt]

You see, stopping Tarquin doesn't sound that hard to me, by simply killing him and Moloch. There's a reason why Disintegrate is a spell V can cast, and if we're talking about Ressurection, are they not the kind of people to stop villains from coming back by, I don't know, shifting the dust to another plane?

[Cerlis]

Basically you're claiming that theft is not evil. I don't think that's much more reasonable than a claim that murder is not evil.

Theft isnt evil, its chaotic. Theft of someone's supplies they need or care about greatly IS evil. She steals from monsters who are evil, jerks and evil people who deserve it, and occassionally alleviates the excess of others who dont need the money more than she does (such as her trick with the party in the first book). Even if you where to point out one or two extreme examples of how she acted differently thats not proof she constantly acts that way, and of course we have proof that she does act as i have describes.

Murder =/= theft.

thats why i was interested in the Link of Rich's talking about belkar (thanks btw) because I think he has a good mind and in his opinion the alignment of someone is based off their CONSTANT actions. Haley acts good most of the time, and anything shadey is usually done in a nonharmful way, or to people who deserve it (or at least she and most of her allies and us feel deserve it) and that is not swayed by an occasional questionable act.

She doesnt sneak into peoples houses and murder them for profit. She doesnt embessil the poor, or steal from little kids (There is a fine distinction between "Stealing back" from a pair of quasi professional pick pockets, and taking candy from a baby). She kills evil jerks and monsters who deserve it, and rescues unneeded gold from those who dont need it.

[Warren Dew]

She doesnt sneak into peoples houses and murder them for profit.
Just into their bathrooms.

[Felixc-91]

...And the argument continues. Can we please get back on track?

So, how 'bout them jokes? I thought they were funny. agreed, they were good, however they did have a bit of an ouch factor involved, have you actually considered what it would be like to do it on a large pile of gold coins?


You see, stopping Tarquin doesn't sound that hard to me, by simply killing him and Moloch. There's a reason why Disintegrate is a spell V can cast, and if we're talking about Ressurection, are they not the kind of people to stop villains from coming back by, I don't know, shifting the dust to another plane?
true resurrection is a high level divine spell that requires no body at all and dose the same thing as resurrection (without any negative effects like loosing a level). it can also be done centuries after the person died... without using soul bind or a similar spell its nearly impossible to stop a high level cleric from raising someone.

Just into their bathrooms.
a single event is not a pattern.

[Kish]

a single event is not a pattern.
I also blink whenever the assertion goes unchallenged that Haley killed Crystal, quote unquote, "for money," instead of, "for a number of reasons, of which her longstanding enmity with Crystal headed the list and money was on the list somewhere lower."

[Burner28]

He was CN at best, and yet, he was still better than Haley, as he never stole from his own people or children, he gave part of the money to the poor, and never maimed anyone for fun.



:

Since when did Haley steal from her own people?
:smallconfused:


Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but although Haley's stealing doesn't particularly bother me, at least not to the extent of some of the posters here who seem to be livid about it, Crystal's death still sticks in my craw badly.

I don't get how it is old fashioned. Can you explain to me?

[Kish]

Since when did [Haley] steal from her own people?
:smallconfused:
Since (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html) always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0129.html).

[Trixie]

And not only that, she also throws a bit of mental manipulation/torture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) I find most vile into the mix.

[faustin]

I also blink whenever the assertion goes unchallenged that Haley killed Crystal, quote unquote, "for money," instead of, "for a number of reasons, of which her longstanding enmity with Crystal headed the list and money was on the list somewhere lower."

:haley: And in the top of the list it was ... What she did to MY-HAIR! OF COURSE IT WAS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY! :smallfurious::smallfurious:

[Felixc-91]

I also blink whenever the assertion goes unchallenged that Haley killed Crystal, quote unquote, "for money," instead of, "for a number of reasons, of which her longstanding enmity with Crystal headed the list and money was on the list somewhere lower." yeah... letssee, the woman tried to kill her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html), will always be a threat to her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html), directly stated that she was going to try again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0621.html), and the assumption is that Haley's first priority was money?!?!?!?!?

[Felixc-91]

And not only that, she also throws a bit of mental manipulation/torture (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html) I find most vile into the mix. your still holding that against her? it was the 8th comic (when everyone except Roy was still a walking stereotype), she never did it again, and her character has changed significantly since then. how dose that make sense? its not even torture, its a powerful bluff, rolling a natural 20... belkar was confused by the experience, not questioning the foundation of his perception. not torture

[Raging Gene Ray]

Plus, without sparking up a good vs. evil debate

That's like saying, "I'm not being racist, but..."



Heck, she is less of a good person now than she was before (at least in my mind) because she had reason to be greedy before (saving her father).

??? You might have an argument except for one thing: leading the Resistance. And spending her precious gold to do it. She may very easily have been CN at the start, but I think her character development to unquestionably CG by overcoming her neuroses is one of the best things about the strip.



To me, she did not behaved like a good person even once

Then why did she buy weapons for the Azurites instead of taking advantage of the confusion and looting what she could? Or simply fled Azure City and left the other two factions to themselves? She also explicitly states that it was guilt about losing O-Chul that led her to take more risks in the defense of her comrades.


now she just lost a tiny fig leaf.

Nice image there :smallbiggrin:.

Back to the current strip, I wonder if Haley has actually tried that "making love in a big pile of gold coins" thing. It sounds similar to doing it in the woods or on the beach: sounds fun and romantic, but then the obvious problems (http://www.cracked.com/article_16675_9-awesome-places-to-have-sex-and-horrific-consequences.html) of dirt and sand and the hard surfaces wedging into your body make you realize that there's a reason people usually use a bed.

[The MunchKING]

Back to the current strip, I wonder if Haley has actually tried that "making love in a big pile of gold coins" thing. It sounds similar to doing it in the woods or on the beach: sounds fun and romantic, but then the obvious problems (http://www.cracked.com/article_16675_9-awesome-places-to-have-sex-and-horrific-consequences.html) of dirt and sand and the hard surfaces wedging into your body make you realize that there's a reason people usually use a bed.

Half Celestials get DR 5/Evil. So as long as she's on the ottom between Elan and her precious moneys they should be fine. :smalltongue::smalltongue:

[The MunchKING]

Oh and MEERY CHRISTMAS all of you foos. :smalltongue:

[MReav]

Heck, she is less of a good person now than she was before (at least in my mind) because she had reason to be greedy before (saving her father). Now we show that she is just greedy.

OtOoPCs spoiler.

She was always a greedy thief, Rich flat out states it in the commentary.

[Warren Dew]

a single event is not a pattern.
How many murders does it take before you conclude that something bad is going on?


??? You might have an argument except for one thing: leading the Resistance. And spending her precious gold to do it. She may very easily have been CN at the start, but I think her character development to unquestionably CG by overcoming her neuroses is one of the best things about the strip.
Neuroses weren't the primary things indicating evil tendencies; greed and theft were.

That said, leading the resistance is definitely a good thing, and to me is what puts her solidly in chaotic neutral territory rather in or bordering on chaotic evil.

[Kish]

How many murders does it take before you conclude that something bad is going on?
Considering the actual number of times she's murdered someone "for profit" is 0, not really a relevant question.

She's a thief. Rich said a while ago that theft for selfish reasons isn't evil. I disagree with him, personally. But "she killed Crystal for profit, therefore she's given to sneaking into people's bathrooms and killing them for their money!" is as bankrupt an argument as "She said she's Chaotic Good!-Ish!, therefore she obviously knows she's evil!"

[KoboldRevenge]

Merry Christmas!!! :D

[martianmister]

bankrupt an argument as "She said she's Chaotic Good!-Ish!, therefore she obviously knows she's evil!"

She could be Chaotic Neutral...

[Burner28]

She's a thief. Rich said a while ago that theft for selfish reasons isn't evil. I disagree with him, personally

When did he say that?

[Kish]

Years and years ago, on this board.

(And so, no, I can't prove it. It's long since gone past Archived into the realm of If-it-can-be-retrieved-I-have-no-clue-how. You'll have to decide whether you believe me that he said it or not.)

[KillItWithFire]

Since good is more of a respect for life rather than property I can see how it's not considered an evil act. Once he starts claiming lawful than I might start questioning his logic.

[Burner28]

Years and years ago, on this board.

(And so, no, I can't prove it. It's long since gone past Archived into the realm of If-it-can-be-retrieved-I-have-no-clue-how. You'll have to decide whether you believe me that he said it or not.)

Hmm.. Well that would mean under the alignment system as interpreted by Rich yes she would be Chaotic Good. I

[Warren Dew]

Years and years ago, on this board.

(And so, no, I can't prove it. It's long since gone past Archived into the realm of If-it-can-be-retrieved-I-have-no-clue-how. You'll have to decide whether you believe me that he said it or not.)
I'd have to see the wording for myself. I also note that Rich is on record as saying everyone in the party is good aligned except for Belkar. He later contradicted himself on that, so just because Rich said it years ago doesn't mean he still believes it, nor is the author always right about his work.

[Felixc-91]

How many murders does it take before you conclude that something bad is going on? one can be plenty. it varies based on the circumstances. someone killing a person dose not prove that they are going to do so again, or have ever done so before.

[hamishspence]

Years and years ago, on this board.

(And so, no, I can't prove it. It's long since gone past Archived into the realm of If-it-can-be-retrieved-I-have-no-clue-how. You'll have to decide whether you believe me that he said it or not.)

Found it- in the Discussion Thread index: first monthly discussion thread- strips 1 to 55:

The thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7333&page=11

The Giant's post:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=274463&postcount=311


Doesn't matter. Killing evil creatures isn't evil, and for all their screw ups, no one (but Belkar) has committed any evil actions. (Theft isn't evil, just selfish.)

Of course- since then, a certain amount of nuance has crept in- with it being possible, sometimes, for killing an evil creature to be evil, given the right context.

[Felixc-91]

{snipped}

Of course- since then, a certain amount of nuance has crept in- with it being possible, sometimes, for killing an evil creature to be evil, given the right context. could we take it to currently mean that killing an Evil creature is not inherently evil? that's what it sounds like to me any way.

[hamishspence]

That's one way of looking at it, true.

The problem being, that given the right context, even killing a non-evil being might not be inherently evil.

The right context usually being "when the killing is in direct defense of the lives of others." It also helps if it's not a goal- but an unavoidable side-effect, of a life-saving action.

"Theft isn't evil, just selfish" is probably another tricky one- could be "not inherently Evil- but still very risky" in this case.

[Felixc-91]

That's one way of looking at it, true.

The problem being, that given the right context, even killing a non-evil being might not be inherently evil.

The right context usually being "when the killing is in direct defense of the lives of others." It also helps if it's not a goal- but an unavoidable side-effect, of a life-saving action.

"Theft isn't evil, just selfish" is probably another tricky one- could be "not inherently Evil- but still very risky" in this case.how is that a problem? there need to be loop holes, there also needs to be a general standard, but you need the loop holes to or the system doesn't work. so yeah, there is a fine line in some cases, and in some it will probably be obvious. but without the line you end up with a morality (system) that functions like an authoritarian dictatorship. this whole argument about Haley has roots in the opinion that taking a life and theft are always evil (or something like that).

[hamishspence]

It's more a:

"If killing a nonevil being is not inherently evil (because intent and context can make it not-evil)- why would killing an evil being have to be spelled out as not inherently evil?"

question.

That is, it's hard to say what The Giant meant when he wrote that- is it a case of:

"killing evil beings specifically needs there to be a reason why it is evil"
and as a corollary:
"killing nonevil beings specifically needs there to be a reason why it is not evil"

or was it less harsh than that?

[Felixc-91]

@ hamishspence
i really hope you don't actually expect me to answer that in any sort of definitive manner.
however, i do have an opinion: he was trying to settle some of the "what is evil" arguments floating around... but given how the morality aspect of the comic (and its associated discussions) expended... it might not be that harsh. i'm not sure he meant it to be quoted or relied on this far out.
Edit: i must sleep now, goodnight

[hamishspence]

however, i do have an opinion: he was trying to settle some of the "what is evil" arguments floating around... but given how the morality aspect of the comic (and its associated discussions) expended... it might not be that harsh. i'm not sure he meant it to be quoted or relied on this far out.


Sounds likely. Way back around the same period, the Unholy Blight scene was stated to show that everyone but Belkar was Good. Since then, things have changed somewhat and it's highly likely that V at least is supposed to be Neutral rather than Good in that scene.

Start of Darkness (and later commentary by the Giant) also tend to imply that there are cases when killing Evil beings might be dubious- even Fall-worthy, or possibly Evil, behaviour- as did commentary on the Black Dragon Familicide scene in Don't Split the Party.

So- all things considered, I'd say that the

"killing evil beings isn't evil"
and
"theft isn't evil, just selfish"

statements probably come with a great deal of caveats added now.

[Grelna the Blue]

She doesnt sneak into peoples houses and murder them for profit. Just into their bathrooms.

Haley didn't do it for profit, although she's not the sort to leave profit behind when committing a crime (or at any other time). The reason she killed Crystal, a more-or-less defenseless and unarmed woman straight out of the shower, was not for money. Nor was it for justice or in self-defense or to protect others (although all of those would have been good reasons). So far as we can tell, she did it because she hated Crystal. A lot. When discussing this action, her motivation takes good off the table and lawful was never a possibility to begin with. It was decidedly chaotic. However, it wasn't evil, either. It's okay to hate morally bankrupt assassins who have tried to kill you. More important, by RPG standards Crystal was fully deserving of death. So far as we were ever shown, she had not a single redeeming feature. She killed people for money without a twinge of regret. Were Haley a paladin, her methods would have differed, but she still wouldn't have allowed Crystal to walk free. The OotS has faced many foes less evil than she.

So my take on it is that it was a chaotic neutral action taken by a chaotic good person. It certainly wasn't Haley's most shining moment. But it doesn't seem even close to being enough to tip her over into CE.

I get the impression that some of the people who dislike Haley have strong Lawful components in their own alignments (just as I do) and may be mistaking their visceral revulsion for the chaos that is so evident in Haley's nature for their antipathy to evil.

[Ted The Bug]

The reason she killed Crystal, a more-or-less defenseless and unarmed woman straight out of the shower, was not for money. Nor was it for justice or in self-defense or to protect others (although all of those would have been good reasons). So far as we can tell, she did it because she hated Crystal. A lot. When discussing this action, her motivation takes good off the table and lawful was never a possibility to begin with. It was decidedly chaotic.

Actually, in DstP, the Giant writes that when plotting Crystal's death, he had intended to include a scene beforehand that never made it into the online comic that would have shown Crystal repeatedly trying to kill Haley. It's the second 'deleted scene' included in the book, and when the Haley-Crystal arc is read with that scene included, Haley's actions are a lot more justified. It was obvious that she was going to be killed, so this was (preemptively, albeit) in self-defense.

[Swordpriest]

Actually, in DstP, the Giant writes that when plotting Crystal's death, he had intended to include a scene beforehand that never made it into the online comic that would have shown Crystal repeatedly trying to kill Haley. It's the second 'deleted scene' included in the book, and when the Haley-Crystal arc is read with that scene included, Haley's actions are a lot more justified. It was obvious that she was going to be killed, so this was (preemptively, albeit) in self-defense.

Yes, I've heard that, also. It's a bit unfortunate that such a major plot point is relegated to a book that only a relatively small percentage of the readership is going to read. I mean, it's like showing someone beating some guy to death with a baseball bat, and offering no explanation -- of course, the actual story is that the one being bludgeoned is a dictator who killed the bat-wielder's family painfully, but if you only put the death into the comic, you're going to be appalled at the first character and think the dictator is some random victim of a psychopath.

My opinion is, that either the full Crystal thing should have been included, or the story rewritten to omit it.

[factotum]

Yes, I've heard that, also. It's a bit unfortunate that such a major plot point is relegated to a book that only a relatively small percentage of the readership is going to read.

It's called "making a mistake", and we humans are known for it. The Giant didn't realise how badly removing that section made Haley killing Crystal look until after the furore broke on the forums about it, and by then it was too late to change!

[Swordpriest]

It's called "making a mistake", and we humans are known for it. The Giant didn't realise how badly removing that section made Haley killing Crystal look until after the furore broke on the forums about it, and by then it was too late to change!

Yep, I'm quite aware it was a mistake -- however, I don't see why it's so hard to change. I mean, this site is an electronic illusion, as mutable as smoke, not a hard copy that can't be altered once it's printed.

Ah, well, mayhaps someday I'll have enough spare coin to buy the book and see what happens.

[Burner28]

It's called "making a mistake", and we humans are known for it. The Giant didn't realise how badly removing that section made Haley killing Crystal look until after the furore broke on the forums about it, and by then it was too late to change!

Wait what happened?

[ThunderCat]

It's called "making a mistake", and we humans are known for it. The Giant didn't realise how badly removing that section made Haley killing Crystal look until after the furore broke on the forums about it, and by then it was too late to change!I don't think it was that big a mistake, I thought it was obvious that Crystal wanted to kill Haley, with her cheering when she's finally allowed to do it, and vowing that it isn't over even after Celia had made peace. Crystal was evil and a threat, and while the way Haley got rid of her was dishonourable, the killing itself was non-evil. And it definetely wasn't for profit.

[Felixc-91]

Actually, in DstP, the Giant writes that when plotting Crystal's death, he had intended to include a scene beforehand that never made it into the online comic that would have shown Crystal repeatedly trying to kill Haley. It's the second 'deleted scene' included in the book, and when the Haley-Crystal arc is read with that scene included, Haley's actions are a lot more justified. It was obvious that she was going to be killed, so this was (preemptively, albeit) in self-defense.
why do we need more evidence than we already have?

the woman tried to kill her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html), will always be a threat to her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html), directly stated that she was going to try again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0621.html)

[Kish]

Wait what happened?

During the entire section where they went to retrieve Roy's body, Crystal committed a number of increasingly unsubtle attempts on Haley's life, ordered by Bozzok. She also killed Grubwiggler just as Haley was about to make a deal with him.