PDA

View Full Version : Arcane Rogue Build



Aust Nailo
2010-12-19, 01:17 AM
So what do you guys think of my arcane rogue build, still in construction but this is the latest version.

Rogue (Penetrating Strike)
Swashbuckler (Arcane Stunt)
Sorcerer (Metamagic Specialist)
Rogue
Rogue
Swasbuckler
Daggerspell Mage 1-9
Master Thrower 1-5
Daggerspell Mage 10

Feats
Human-TWF
Flaw- (leaving option open but not depending on it)
Lvl 1-Weapon Focus Dagger
Lvl 3-Practised Caster
Lvl 6-Daring Outlaw
Lvl 9-ITWF
Lvl 12-Point Blank Shot
Lvl 15-Precise Shot
Lvl 18-GTWF

If a flaw was allowed I would take PBS early and try and fit Far Shot into the build. The build focuses on TWF with daggers and using them as arcane charged ranged attacks via Arcane Throw. The Sorcerer spells would be mainly Evocation, and possibly some minor buffs (haste for example). Not meant to be the party buffer or primary caster but could help with buffing and throw a few bombs here and there.

Brendan
2010-12-19, 01:22 AM
thats pretty darn feat starved. you're choosing the two most feat intensive combat techniques and combining them. I'd recommend scrap the twf and just go for the arcane throwing. But maybe i missed something. looks fun.

Aust Nailo
2010-12-19, 01:29 AM
Yeeaahhh, the feat distribution is one of the reasons this build is taking time to... build (for lack of a better word).

Godskook
2010-12-19, 02:02 AM
1.I don't see swashbuckler as being worth it, especially since you're not a Int based caster. Daring Outlaw seems quite a bit worse, what're you getting it for? Your total rogue+swash levels is only 5.

2.Why sorcerer? Rogues want skills, which means Int. To me, this *screams* wizard, not sorcerer. And considering that Wizard is far more forgiving to hybrid builds, I vote you consider it. The spells per day isn't a big issue if you focused-specialize, and as a conjurer or transmuter, that's easy to do. Abrupt Jaunt can be your cold-comfort for losing arcane stunt.

3.I'm not familiar with Master Thrower, but it seems fairly "stand alone"-ish. What's the allure that's drawing you to it?

4.Consider:

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 5/Daggerspell Mage 10

Has:
-Int primary and 5.8 skill points per level, on average, before Int.
-Abrupt Jaunt(keyed to your primary casting stat, instead of a tertiary stat, like Arcane Stunt)
-9th level spells
-6d6 Sneak attack(same as your build)
-Delayed Dagerspell entry allows you to pick up Able Learner at 1st without flaws, and that's a handy feat for a skill-monkey.
-Caster level 20, despite Unseen Seer's class skill.

Aust Nailo
2010-12-19, 02:19 AM
You may be right about Swashbuckler, I just tend to pair them together in builds. I was getting swashbuckler for the free Weapon Finesse, BaB and Fort saves. But Maybe I should replace the Swashbuckler with 2 levels of Fighter instead, but it seems to lose a bit of flavor then. And as far as Master Thrower goes, its what I wanted to do with a rogue build, throw knives. And Daggerspell Mage's Arcane Throw ability ties in perfectly with MT. I like the thought of delivering touch spells through thrown daggers. Your build is good, but it seems like less of a gish then what I want to be. But then again I'm not familiar with Unseen Seer.

And as for picking Sorcerer over Wizard, Sorcerer fits my personality better than Wizard.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-19, 02:25 AM
You can't take Penetrating Strike until Rogue 3; it replaces trap sense at that level.

Keld Denar
2010-12-19, 02:32 AM
Whatever you can do without spells, you can do better with spells. Really, magic is what makes you a gish, not anything else. You are best served with more caster levels than non-caster levels. The build of Rogue1/Caster4/USS2 is a perfect lead-in to just about any other Arcane/Rogue blend PrC you could hope for, including Arcane Trickster, Spellwarped Sniper, or Daggerspell Mage.

Unseen Seer is in Complete Mage. Its REALLY good. Full casting, 6 skill points per level, and some really good class features. The best of them is their advanced learning. You get to pick up Divination spells from ANY spell list. The most commonly poached spell is Hunter's Eye from the PHBII. Its a Ranger2 spell and it gives you +1d6/3CL Sneak Attack damage. Rangers normally have a trashy caster level, and thus the spell sucks for them. You'll have a full CL, and USS actually turbocharges your Divination CL, so you get amazing benefits from it. Its only a 2nd level spell, so you can prep lots of copies of it, or Persist it normally with an 8th level slot. There are also a lot of other great spells, like Divine Insight, AKA "I auto-make this skill check", and Grave Strike/Vine Strike for opening up SA vs undead/plants.

Aust Nailo
2010-12-19, 02:33 AM
When I said Penetrating Strike I meant that I would be taking it at level 3, I just made the note the first time I listed taking Rogue as a class.

And I just looked at Unseen Seer and it seems interesting for a character angle, seeming to know everything but not letting anyone now how:smalltongue:. But the d4 hit die worries me.


^Wait so Grave Strike is a Divination spell? I did not know that. :smallconfused: You guys have given me a lot to think about.

Keld Denar
2010-12-19, 02:36 AM
Con should be your secondary stat after your casting stat. Con will make up for the difference in HP between a d4 and a d6. Also, magic will help you not die. Spells like Mirror Image or Blur will protect you better than AC and HP will in most cases. When you get higher levels, Greater Invis and Greater Mirror Image are rediculously amazing for not dying. This is why spellcasting is sooooo important. The sooner you get to 4th level spells, the sooner you get to take advantage of these boons!

Aust Nailo
2010-12-19, 03:16 AM
Ok after rethinking and taking the apparently awesome Unseen Seer into account I have updated the build.

Rogue 2 (Spell Reflection)/Sorcerer 2 (Metamagic Specialist)/Unseen Seer 1-4/Master Thrower 3/Daggerspell Mage 1-9

Feats
Human-TWF
Flaw-
Lvl 1-Weapon Focus Dagger
Lvl 3-Point Blank Shot
Lvl 6-Precise Shot
Lvl 9-ITWF
Lvl 12-Far Shot
Lvl 15-GTWF
Lvl 18-

This is of course only 1-20 if epic levels were involved I would finish up MT and DsM. The Spell Reflection Rogue is because MT give Evasion at Lvl 2. The open feat at Lvl 18 could be a metamagic like Extend so I could pick up Persist spell for my SA related buffs. So how do you think the class works now?

Keld Denar
2010-12-19, 03:37 AM
EDIT: Build is illegal. You need 5 levels to get the 8 ranks you need to get into USS. You can't take your first level before 6, you have it at 5.

Again, too many lost caster levels. You can get evasion pretty cheaply from a Ring of Evasion, or from the spell "Ruin Delver's Fortune" in the PHBII. Not worth losing caster levels for, especially if you plan on Persisting spells without metamagic reducers. The delay is just not worth whatever you get. Master Thrower, in this case, actually makes you a worse thrower because you aren't getting access to the higher level spells that really kick your power into high gear.

You know that you can sneak attack with spells, right? Check out Complete Arcane's write up on Weaponlike Spells. Basically, any spell that does damage and has an attack roll can be used to SA. That means you get spell damage PLUS SA damage, provided you can make your foes flat footed. Going Invisible, blinding with Glitterdust, or making your foes balance on a Grease spell are all great ways to get those delicious delicious SA dice. My favorite spell to SA with is Whirling Blade (CArcane/SpC). You can potentially SA every foe in a line, which is pretty awesome.

That said, why do you want to do? If you want to do a lot of damage with thrown weapons, maybe magic isn't your best bet. Check out this build: Flick the Flaming Dagger Flinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5140212&postcount=11). It utilizes Dragonfire Inspiration and Tome of Battle to max out bonus damage. Unlike SA, it works on almost everything (except fire immune guys), at any range (unlike SA, which only works within 30'), and also boosts the whole party. It sounds like that goes along better with your concept that an arcane rogue might.

gorfnab
2010-12-19, 04:34 AM
Here's a handbook that may give you some ideas as well: Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240.0)

Aust Nailo
2010-12-19, 05:08 AM
Oops wasn't paying attention to the skill requirements :smalltongue:.

What I want to be is a Rogue Gish who throws daggers and fights with two weapons. I'm not trying to optimize here, I'm trying to make an effective character that is fun to play. I care more about flavor than raw power.

Thespianus
2010-12-19, 05:33 AM
It's a tough challenge, and nigh impossible to make effective. I'm currently playing a Rogue Gish specializing in TWF, and I'm very feat starved. To go for Master Thrower as well will be very tough indeed.

This isn't RAW, but maybe you could ask your DM to allow you to use the Duskblade class and use the Arcane Channeling for thrown weapons instead of melee weapons? At least your BAB wouldn't infinitely suck that way.

In that case, I would go Rogue 1/Duskblade 13/Unseen Seer 2/Abjurant Champion 4. You would get a BAB of 18, great hitpoints, ability to cast in armor, great boosts to AC from your spells, etc, and a caster level of 19.

The feats would need to be:
TWF, Quick Draw, ITWF, GTWF, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and then a few feats to boost your casting and damage. I would suggest Craven.

Darrin
2010-12-19, 08:40 AM
Lvl 1-Weapon Focus Dagger
Lvl 3-Point Blank Shot
Lvl 6-Precise Shot
Lvl 9-ITWF
Lvl 12-Far Shot
Lvl 15-GTWF
Lvl 18-


Far Shot is available on two fairly low-cost magic items: Horizon Goggles (8000 GP, Complete Mage) and Helm of the Hunter (9000 GP, MIC). Also, I don't think it's a prereq for any other important ranged feats. Most combats happen at such close ranges that Far Shot is a waste, although with daggers it might help. However, there are swift-action spells that can cancel range penalties (buy a masterwork buckler with a wand chamber to activate it as a swift action).

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-19, 10:39 AM
I'm not nearly as big a fan of USS as most people are, because I don't like loosing effective caster levels, or having additional feat tax in trying to make up for getting kicked by my own PrC.

Now, my question to the OP: What exactly do you envision your character doing? Let's set aside mechanics for now, what is it exactly that you want your character to be able to do? Perhaps we can find a more mechanically sound method of achieving your goals.

Throwing and TWFing is nice. Why do you want a magical gish aspect to it? You can already UMD for a lot of magical goodness. Is there some type of magic in particular that you want to leverage? Putting in three different types of builds (TWF, throwing, gish) is going to get complicated.

Let's ignore the 'magic is OP and I want to be IMBA!' arguments for now, because if everyone listened to that, we'd all be wizard/incantatrixes.

Aust Nailo
2010-12-19, 11:12 AM
I see my character being the typical TWF Rogue melee (Tumbling around, flanking, Sneak Attacking, etc.). And when the enemies are more distant he would be throwing knives. The main spell use would be using daggers to deliver touch spells through both melee and ranged (hence throwing).

I realize this would be easier to do with a Duskblade, but I've played 2 Duskblades already and I really like the Rogue class and want to incorporate it into a gish build (I really like gishes too).

Also after some digging I realized I can do the kind of throwing I want without Master Thrower so I think I will drop that.

OK, next version of the class. Dropped MT, remembered that Swashbuckler was giving me WF so I kept a level of that. Still really feat starved though. Feat list is a very rough version.

Rogue 2/Sorcerer/Rogue/Swashbuckler/Daggerspell Mage 10 /Unseen Seer 1-5

Feats
Human-TWF
Flaw-
Lvl 1-Weapon Focus Dagger
Lvl 3-Practised Caster
Lvl 6-PBS
Lvl 9-ITWF
Lvl 12-
Lvl 15-GTWF
Lvl 18-

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-19, 05:54 PM
I see my character being the typical TWF Rogue melee (Tumbling around, flanking, Sneak Attacking, etc.). And when the enemies are more distant he would be throwing knives. The main spell use would be using daggers to deliver touch spells through both melee and ranged (hence throwing).

I realize this would be easier to do with a Duskblade, but I've played 2 Duskblades already and I really like the Rogue class and want to incorporate it into a gish build (I really like gishes too).

Also after some digging I realized I can do the kind of throwing I want without Master Thrower so I think I will drop that.

OK, next version of the class. Dropped MT, remembered that Swashbuckler was giving me WF so I kept a level of that. Still really feat starved though. Feat list is a very rough version.

Rogue 2/Sorcerer/Rogue/Swashbuckler/Daggerspell Mage 10 /Unseen Seer 1-5

Feats
Human-TWF
Flaw-
Lvl 1-Weapon Focus Dagger
Lvl 3-Practised Caster
Lvl 6-PBS
Lvl 9-ITWF
Lvl 12-
Lvl 15-GTWF
Lvl 18-

What sort of touch spells are you wanting to cast?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-12-19, 07:41 PM
A note on the pseduo-spellcasting lose from Unseen Seer: If you enter via Spellthief instead of Rogue and nab Master Spellthief instead, due to the stacking rules for replacement effects, you can ignore the -3 CL to non-divination spells due to Master Spellthief.

olentu
2010-12-19, 08:03 PM
A note on the pseduo-spellcasting lose from Unseen Seer: If you enter via Spellthief instead of Rogue and nab Master Spellthief instead, due to the stacking rules for replacement effects, you can ignore the -3 CL to non-divination spells due to Master Spellthief.

So has anyone ever actually found those rules and can say where they are or is this still just something people say works without proof.

Psyren
2010-12-19, 08:09 PM
If you want rogue/sorcerer, Spellthief -> Master Spellthief works much better. Otherwise, do Rogue/Wizard imo.

kestrel404
2010-12-19, 08:14 PM
I'm not seeing a lot of utility for the Arcane Stunt ACF - it's better than Grace for you, but it's not good enough to lose a level of spellcaster.

Daggerspell mage is obviously the prestige class you're most interested in, and that's perfectly fine. To get in, you only need 1d6 sneak attack and CL 5, so with 1 level of rogue and 1 level of caster + practiced spellcaster you meet most of the important pre-reqs. You also seem to want to be a spontaneous spellcaster - that's just fine, but Sorceror is a poor fit.

If you're willing to accept a pre-chosen spell list, I strongly recommend Beguiler for this build. Rogue 1/Beguiler 4/ or Rogue 3/Beguiler 2/ get you a lot more skill points and are strongly int focused, while still getting you 3/5 BAB.
If you really want to make a combat-focused sneak-attacker, then Beguiler 4/Thug Fighter 1/Daggerspell Mage 10/Abjurant Champion 5 get 16 BAB over 20 levels, and with the Craven feat will be dealing a heck of a lot of damage with a full attack.
But I have to recommend my favorite skillmonkey build here as well - Rogue 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 3/Unseen Seer 4/Arcane Trickster 10 - This gets the most casting, skills and sneak attack, and with the Able Learner feat you can also get every skill as a class forever by level 3 (Rogue/Wizard picks up most of them, and Human Paragon lets you choose 11 orthers, and Able Learner means that once a class skill, always a class skill). You get more sneak attack, more skill points, and you're not locked into a TWF build.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-12-19, 08:17 PM
So has anyone ever actually found those rules and can say where they are or is this still just something people say works without proof.

Unseen Seer is an arcane casting class. Master Spellthief stacks Spellthief levels with arcane caster levels to get one CL. If I recall correctly, Fax covered this a while back the last time it came up.

olentu
2010-12-19, 08:30 PM
Unseen Seer is an arcane casting class. Master Spellthief stacks Spellthief levels with arcane caster levels to get one CL. If I recall correctly, Fax covered this a while back the last time it came up.

Er unseen seer is an arcane casting class as much as mystic theurge is and regardless that does not make stacking a setting any more then it is already a setting. Now that is not to say that one could not ignore the penalty but that one could ignore the penalty equally well with just one level in wizard as with the feat since there is no rule giving this secret power that has ever been presented.

Now if your DM rules that all casters can ignore any penalties to caster level ever then the spellthief route does have some advantages but first one must get the ruling that all casters ignore all caster level penalties.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-12-19, 08:38 PM
Er unseen seer is an arcane casting class as much as mystic theurge is and regardless that does not make stacking a setting any more then it is already a setting. Now that is not to say that one could not ignore the penalty but that one could ignore the penalty equally well with just one level in wizard as with the feat since there is no rule giving this secret power that has ever been presented.

Now if your DM rules that all casters can ignore any penalties to caster level ever then the spellthief route does have some advantages but first one must get the ruling that all casters ignore all caster level penalties.

Here's a condensed version. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3211879&postcount=4)

olentu
2010-12-19, 09:11 PM
Here's a condensed version. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3211879&postcount=4)

Er yeah so like I said the class does not give arcane spellcasting since that is something that one already has and can not be gained through the class exclusively.

Basically I disagree that arcane spellcasting means a spell known.

But I suppose if you take the position that any class that grants a spell known in any way counts then I suppose say cleric is an arcane spellcasting class through the ability to modify feats through the chaos spells and thus exchange a feat for extra spell. Or say fighter is an arcane spellcasting class if it grants a HD that is used on extra spell.

So if one takes the position that every class that exists can in fact be an arcane spellcasting class then yes the prestiege class is an arcane spellcasting class but this only works if every single class that exists could be an arcane spellcasting class should one so desire. Well barring classes that do not grant any HD.

Edit: Well change the can be an arcane spellcasting class to is an arcane spellcasting class since the class does give a spell known even if one does not choose to take advantage of that fact. So with that position all classes are arcane spellcasting classes except those that give no HD and no bonus feats that can be extra spell.


Edit: And it still does not give one the abilty to ignore the penalty it just lets one count (or double count if the class raises caster level in a particular way) every class that exists for caster level. With the +(19-wiz) caster level increase probably overpowering the -3.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-12-19, 09:36 PM
Edit: And it still does not give one the abilty to ignore the penalty it just lets one count (or double count if the class raises caster level in a particular way) every class that exists for caster level. With the +(19-wiz) caster level increase probably overpowering the -3.

Agreeing to disagree on the rest, but you would apply the penalty before you applied the "boost" from Master Spellthief.

olentu
2010-12-19, 09:37 PM
Agreeing to disagree on the rest, but you would apply the penalty before you applied the "boost" from Master Spellthief.

Stacking is still not a setting so like I said the +(19-wiz) bonus would probably cancel out the -3 but the -3 would still apply.

Edit: Well unless of course all classes can ignore the penalty due to a particular way of DM ruling. Either way the feat does not change the ability to ignore the penalty except in the sense of choosing to ignore the -3 since the +(19-wiz) is so much larger.

Hyooz
2010-12-19, 09:58 PM
At this point I'm just baffled as to how Unseen Seer and Mystic Theurge aren't arcane spellcasting classes.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-19, 10:17 PM
Stacking is still not a setting so like I said the +(19-wiz) bonus would probably cancel out the -3 but the -3 would still apply.

Edit: Well unless of course all classes can ignore the penalty due to a particular way of DM ruling. Either way the feat does not change the ability to ignore the penalty except in the sense of choosing to ignore the -3 since the +(19-wiz) is so much larger.

As I said... feat tax to offset being hurt by your own PrC...

If you're going to blow a feat to do something you shouldn't have to, practiced spellcaster will at least get you more bang for your buck.

Aust Nailo
2010-12-20, 01:10 AM
Answering an earlier question, I'm looking to cast touch spells in a manner similar to a Duskblade. So spells like Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Ghoul Touch (perhaps), Wracking Touch would be a particularly nasty spell for my character, Vampiric Touch is always great. I can't think of any others right now but you get the idea. :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-20, 01:26 AM
Answering an earlier question, I'm looking to cast touch spells in a manner similar to a Duskblade. So spells like Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Ghoul Touch (perhaps), Wracking Touch would be a particularly nasty spell for my character, Vampiric Touch is always great. I can't think of any others right now but you get the idea. :smallbiggrin:

Why? It's like asking to nerf yourself over and over, if that's all you are wanting to do. Besides, you can simply use Wand Sheaths for that stuff, UMD is a class skill for over half your build.

None of those spells are worth the paper they are printed on. Not when you could instead be doing some 30d6+ a round with TWF and Master Thrower.
Seriously, if that's all you want to do, put flippin' Shocking on one of your weapons, that'll do more damage than Shocking Grasp will, the rest are even worse.

There's a build I made once, by the name of Gat Ling. Sans magic, it's pretty much what you ask for. Uses a two-level dip in Monk, of all things, mostly for Flurry, and Kukri of Adaptation. Four levels into Bloodstorm Blade and the they didn't even need the Returning enhancement.

Re-read Sneaky Shot. 'target is denied dex bonus'. Not flat-footed, not anything else someone can cheese their way out of... it simply activates your sneak attacks. Wands of Gravestrike and Golemstrike round out the equipment so you can apply them to nearly everything you are likely to encounter. Then go for Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment, and you turn into a very nasty assassin.

You're wanting to scrap two-thirds of your total build so you can... use first-level spells?

Urpriest
2010-12-20, 01:47 AM
At this point I'm just baffled as to how Unseen Seer and Mystic Theurge aren't arcane spellcasting classes.

They don't grant spells. They don't have associated lists, essentially.

This is irrelevant though, because olentu intentionally ignores the fact that classes like Unseen Seer and Mystic Theurge say that their level is added to that of the base class for the purposes of caster level. So if you're calculating caster level for any reason (for example, using Master Spellthief), you add your Unseen Seer levels to, for example, your Wizard levels.

Aust Nailo
2010-12-20, 02:14 AM
I suppose thats what I'm saying, if you want to say it like that. I wanted to be a Rogue arcane caster, and then i saw Daggerspell Mage and thought it was really cool, so I've been trying to incorporate that into the build, and that classes main trick is touch spells through TWF daggers and it has the Arcane Throw ability which means touch spells at a distance, and here we are.

olentu
2010-12-20, 02:19 AM
They don't grant spells. They don't have associated lists, essentially.

This is irrelevant though, because olentu intentionally ignores the fact that classes like Unseen Seer and Mystic Theurge say that their level is added to that of the base class for the purposes of caster level. So if you're calculating caster level for any reason (for example, using Master Spellthief), you add your Unseen Seer levels to, for example, your Wizard levels.

Er one certainly does gain an increase in caster level from the classes. But that has nothing to do with anything I am talking about in any way I can see at all. Since it is as far as I can tell completely unimportant I have not bothered to say the obvious.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-20, 12:33 PM
I suppose thats what I'm saying, if you want to say it like that. I wanted to be a Rogue arcane caster, and then i saw Daggerspell Mage and thought it was really cool, so I've been trying to incorporate that into the build, and that classes main trick is touch spells through TWF daggers and it has the Arcane Throw ability which means touch spells at a distance, and here we are.

May I suggest Rogue/Warlock/Daggerspell? Warlocks have a lot of unlimited-use abilities that are really quite cool, and a lot of them are touch attack, or can be touch attack, and the two would probably synergize really well.

The only question I really have is why do you want to nerf your touch attack spells by making them have a regular melee attack instead? That seems more of a downgrade than anything cool.

O_Y
2010-12-20, 03:17 PM
@OP:

The DMG Assassin class sounds like it does about half of what you're looking for. Tweak the flavor text and the spell list to be a bit more explosive, add a couple spell-storing daggers and you're done. You can still mix in Daggerspell mage if you want, but it wouldn't add much compared to straight Assassin levels. This would start working around level 6 and stay consistently useful up to ~level 15.

A couple years ago, I remember Keld putting a Bard build into every other thread that did pretty much what you want (throwing lots of magic daggers at things until they fall down). It relied on the Dragonfire Inspiration feat from Dragon Magic to turn Inspire Courage into fistfuls of energy damage dice. It hit stride around level 1 and scaled pretty well into the mid teens.

Or you could use the Sword of the Arcane Order/Mystic Ranger trick (using a class variant from Dragon Magazine and a feat from Champions of Valor to tack 10th-level Wizard casting onto the Ranger frame), which also does pretty much exactly what you're looking for, starting at level 1, but petering off past level 10.

And remember that old argument people threw at the Tome of Battle when it came out about the various classes (Swordsage especially) feeling like magic-users? That could be a good thing here -- the Swordsage is an effective single-classed character that does what the OP wants, right out of the tin. (Maybe tweak the Desert Wind Element from fire to electricity, if that's more to your liking.)

An ordinary Rogue with UMD ranks and Dragonfire Strike (Dragon Magic) would also bring some magic abilities into a knife fight. And Wand Chambers of swift spells (Dungeonscape) react very nicely with Quickdrawing throwers with bandoliers worth of different weapons.

Urpriest
2010-12-20, 04:44 PM
Er one certainly does gain an increase in caster level from the classes. But that has nothing to do with anything I am talking about in any way I can see at all. Since it is as far as I can tell completely unimportant I have not bothered to say the obvious.

Either:

A: You agree that Unseen Seer levels count as arcane spellcaster levels for the purposes of the Master Spellthief feat. In which case I have misunderstood what you're trying to argue in this thread.

B: You disagree that this is the case, and you didn't actually read my post. In which case I don't think it's going to be worthwhile discussing this with you.

olentu
2010-12-20, 05:18 PM
Either:

A: You agree that Unseen Seer levels count as arcane spellcaster levels for the purposes of the Master Spellthief feat. In which case I have misunderstood what you're trying to argue in this thread.

B: You disagree that this is the case, and you didn't actually read my post. In which case I don't think it's going to be worthwhile discussing this with you.

Yeah I am going to say that I must have completely misunderstood what you are saying. Actually from what you have just said I clearly have no idea what you are talking about at all. Really this post combined with this



They don't grant spells. They don't have associated lists, essentially.

This is irrelevant though, because olentu intentionally ignores the fact that classes like Unseen Seer and Mystic Theurge say that their level is added to that of the base class for the purposes of caster level. So if you're calculating caster level for any reason (for example, using Master Spellthief), you add your Unseen Seer levels to, for example, your Wizard levels.

Makes absolutely no sense to me at all.


However I shall try to explain my position since it does not appear that it is understood.



First one does gain caster level from the prestiege classes since the classes say that they do. However this was never in dispute and so I saw no reason to mention it.

Since the explanation of the master spellthief feat in no way demonstrated or discussed that a stacking was a setting. So it does not allow one to ignore the caster level penalty due to a setting since it is not a setting.

For the referenced explanation to have any use in overcoming the caster level penalty I must take it to be the same argument that I have seen before where the feat is said to stack the levels in the classes without regard to any boost the classes may give. I however disagree with this and the reason I chose to counter the argument was the fact that I disagree that the prestige classes are arcane spellcasting classes.

So the feat does not in the position I hold work to overcome the penalty either by setting caster level or by causing a stacking due to the feat that of course is without regard to any other ability the class may grant.

And so the fact that the classes boost caster level is not yet important to my argument since it does not matter unless the classes are in fact arcane spellcasting classes which I argue they are not.

Thus the fact that the classes boost caster level is unimportant until and unless it is agreed that the classes are arcane spellcasting classes. This has not been agreed and so like I said the fact that the classes already boost caster level is unimportant since the arcane spellcaster thing not resolved.

Urpriest
2010-12-21, 12:25 AM
First one does gain caster level from the prestiege classes since the classes say that they do. However this was never in dispute and so I saw no reason to mention it.

Since the explanation of the master spellthief feat in no way demonstrated or discussed that a stacking was a setting. So it does not allow one to ignore the caster level penalty due to a setting since it is not a setting.

So far fine, if I understand what you mean by "setting" vs. "stacking" right. My argument doesn't contradict the claim that Master Spellthief can't do a "reset" of the caster level calculation partway through the process. There may be other reasons there, but I didn't address them and don't plan to.



For the referenced explanation to have any use in overcoming the caster level penalty I must take it to be the same argument that I have seen before where the feat is said to stack the levels in the classes without regard to any boost the classes may give. I however disagree with this and the reason I chose to counter the argument was the fact that I disagree that the prestige classes are arcane spellcasting classes.

So the feat does not in the position I hold work to overcome the penalty either by setting caster level or by causing a stacking due to the feat that of course is without regard to any other ability the class may grant.

And so the fact that the classes boost caster level is not yet important to my argument since it does not matter unless the classes are in fact arcane spellcasting classes which I argue they are not.

Thus the fact that the classes boost caster level is unimportant until and unless it is agreed that the classes are arcane spellcasting classes. This has not been agreed and so like I said the fact that the classes already boost caster level is unimportant since the arcane spellcaster thing not resolved.

So your argument is that if we were to adopt a "setting" view then things like Unseen Seer need to be arcane spellcasting classes in order to qualify for the Master Spelltheif's "add levels in spellcasting classes together" clause, correct?

Ok, this is the argument I made earlier: Unseen Seer is indeed not an arcane spellcasting class. However, Wizard is. And for every level you gain in Unseen Seer, as you have admitted, you gain caster level as if you gained a level of Wizard. That means that a Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 3 would calculate caster level as if they were a Spellthief 1/Wizard 7, no matter how they're calculating caster level. In particular, if such a character had Master Spellthief then they would calculate caster level as if they were a Spellthief 1/Wizard 7, i.e. a character with seven levels in the "Wizard" arcane spellcasting class. So a "setting" Master Spellthief would treat Unseen Seer levels like Wizard levels.

olentu
2010-12-21, 12:46 AM
So far fine, if I understand what you mean by "setting" vs. "stacking" right. My argument doesn't contradict the claim that Master Spellthief can't do a "reset" of the caster level calculation partway through the process. There may be other reasons there, but I didn't address them and don't plan to.



So your argument is that if we were to adopt a "setting" view then things like Unseen Seer need to be arcane spellcasting classes in order to qualify for the Master Spelltheif's "add levels in spellcasting classes together" clause, correct?

Ok, this is the argument I made earlier: Unseen Seer is indeed not an arcane spellcasting class. However, Wizard is. And for every level you gain in Unseen Seer, as you have admitted, you gain caster level as if you gained a level of Wizard. That means that a Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 3 would calculate caster level as if they were a Spellthief 1/Wizard 7, no matter how they're calculating caster level. In particular, if such a character had Master Spellthief then they would calculate caster level as if they were a Spellthief 1/Wizard 7, i.e. a character with seven levels in the "Wizard" arcane spellcasting class. So a "setting" Master Spellthief would treat Unseen Seer levels like Wizard levels.

Er no setting versus stacking is a separate argument from the arcane spellcaster class argument.