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Lateral
2010-12-19, 11:29 AM
Which types of ability damage is the most effective? E.g. is the lowest stat for the most creatures. I'm thinking the mental stats and DEX, probably. Scratch this, the only useful one is DEX.

Also, what is the earliest-level way to get access to free animal-based (actually, vermin-based) poisons? Only way I've got to do what I want is Polymorph any Object. I'm trying to get a free way to access Devastation Vermin poison, because they do 2d12 ability damage, with a Fort DC of more than 80.

Vizzerdrix
2010-12-19, 12:09 PM
Con, while not the lowest stat, is a darn good stat to target with poison.

As for access to poison, several familiars and animal companions can be milked for vemons and a first level psionic power can get you all the plant based poison you'd ever want

Lateral
2010-12-19, 12:14 PM
I know that it's easy to get plant-based poisons. That isn't helpful. I can't get devastation spiders as familiars, either.

I'm planning to use CON poison as the main mode of attack, but I'm not sure what else to use on things with high CON. Are they most likely to have low DEX, low INT, low WIS or low CHA?

Volos
2010-12-19, 12:25 PM
CON based poisons are the best choice, as they are a downward spiral of doom for anyone who fails atleast one save. You lose a bit of CON, your fort saves take a dive. So you're more likely to fail in subsequent rounds to lose more CON to fail more often to lose more CON. Eventually you will have a very sickly (or perhaps dead) creature without having to do all that much damage to it's HP. Or if you get really luckly, it will die from hitting 0 CON.

A great poison application combo is to be a monk with gauntlets. Smear contact poison onto the gauntlets, enough for one application per digit. Now use flurry of blows to make trip attempts. Each trip attempt takes a melee touch attack and applies the contact poison to your foe. Once he's on the ground from your trip, you get another melee attack. Go ahead and start grappling. Each grapple takes a melee touch attack which applies the contact poison to your foe just before grapple damage takes effect. Rinse, repeat, kill.

Lateral
2010-12-19, 01:06 PM
Thanks, but DCs are irrelevant because... well, I'd like to see anything make a DC 84 Fort save. CON poison is still probably the best, but I need to know the best backup... actually, scratch that, the only good backup with an insane DC is
Devastation Centipede venom (DC 83, 2d12 dex/2d12 dex).

I need help finding a way to get free any-creature-based poison so I can get Devastation Spider venom, though. I already know how to fight with poison.

SurlySeraph
2010-12-19, 01:20 PM
If you're trying to get the target's stats down to 0, targeting Int or Cha is usually best for big monsters, though Dex often works well (especially against dragons).

Other than Gate or Polymorph Any Object, I don't know of any way to get devastation vermin venom.

Callista
2010-12-19, 02:05 PM
Well, you could just blind them with your giant font. Then you wouldn't need to poison them. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway--look, if you're going after this stuff, you're epic level anyway--why not just create a spell that'll make the poison for you?

Lateral
2010-12-19, 02:21 PM
Actually, I'm not epic level. I want devastation vermin venom because it's unsaveable, and I want it pre-epic for free. The best way I know is a 15th level wizard or a 15th level cleric with the Trickery domain (wizard is frail and gets worse BAB and so will be harder-put to use it, but Cleric can only use it as a domain slot). I'm looking for a better way-- either to access PaO at earlier levels or to find another spell/power to do it with.

And the giant font was because nobody was giving me any helpful data on what I was asking until I turned my 'voice' up to 9001.

Akimu
2010-12-19, 02:40 PM
If you find something to attack STR, at 0 the target becomes helpless. Cant stand, cant fight back, free sneak attacks... just saying... but I'd go after the CON 1st

Lateral
2010-12-19, 02:57 PM
All poisons except CON make the victim helpless at 0, not just STR poison, and STR is the one that the most monsters have a lot of. STR poison is the least useful here.

Also, I already said that I know what poison I'm using now.

Darrin
2010-12-19, 03:19 PM
Also, what is the earliest-level way to get access to free animal-based (actually, vermin-based) poisons? Only way I've got to do what I want is Polymorph any Object. I'm trying to get a free way to access Devastation Vermin poison, because they do 2d12 ability damage, with a Fort DC of more than 80.

Use a Chaos Flask (100 GP, Planar Handbook p. 76). It's a bottle of the raw unshaped matter from the plane of Limbo. As a free action, you can make a Wisdom check DC 13 to turn it into any non-magical item you can think of, so long as it's not particularly dense or weighs more than 0.5 lbs. So for only 100 GP, you can get 0.5 lbs of any non-magical poison in the game. This would probably included Devastation Vermin, although you might want to check with your DM first before you pull this trick on him.

Given a pint of oil weights 1.0 lbs (pint = 16 ounces), and a vial of poison is probably an ounce, 0.5 lbs = 8 ounces/vials of poison. However, the catch is it probably won't last long enough to use all 8 doses. Whatever you create will evaporate in a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom score. If your Wisdom score is higher than 10, then that's probably long enough to coat a weapon with the poison, stab someone, and have it run through their veins long enough for them to save against the primary and secondary poison effects.

If you want to keep it around for longer than that, there may be a few magic items that can put it in stasis, but I'm not entirely sure it will prevent evaporation. Putting the poison into a Glove of Storing or Glove of the Master Strategist (3600 GP, Ghostwalk), a Preserving Jar (3000 GP, A&EG) or Angriz's Chest (1000 GP, Races of the Dragon) might work, depending on how your DM wants to interpret how exactly the limbo-stuff decays/evaporates. Unguent of Timelessness (150 GP, DMG) could delay the evaporation for maybe up to 6 hours. Coating it with Quintessence would work, but I have no idea how to price that. Check with your DM about which methods would work in his campaign.

You can also use your 0.5 lb sample to create more of the poison with a spell like major creation, which can create up to 1 cubic foot per caster level. However, that only works for vegetable matter. Poison from living creatures such as vermin wont work with major creation. The other problem with major creation is the duration isn't permanent, unless you summon a Djinn and get him to do it as a SLA.

The deadliest vegetable-based poison I know of is Black Lotus Extract (4500 GP, DC 20). However, if you can ask your DM to establish a price for the poison you want, you may be able to manufacture enough Black Lotus Extract to pay for this Devastation Vermin stuff.

Chaos Flask, 100 GP.
Summon Monster VII cast by a 13th level caster, 910 GP.
Total: 1010 GP

(Note: Planar Binding might be available at a lower casting level, but it's much more complicated and probably requires additional expenses for magic circles, dimensional anchors, etc. However, it could be cheaper in the long-run if you plan to manufacture this stuff often. SMVII is simpler and involves considerably less risk if you're only going to do it once.)

This would create 20 cubic feet of Black Lotus Extract. Assuming each vial of poison is about an ounce, 20 x 957 = 19140 vials of Black Lotus Extract, with a market value of 86,130,000 GP. At that point, though, rather than traipsing around trying to poison people, you could just buy yourself a small kingdom or demi-plane and retire.

Lateral
2010-12-19, 03:41 PM
The Chaos Flask is perfect. Just one thing; what does the Glove of the Master Strategist do? I googled it and I found that it was like a Glove of Storing but also gives True Strike 1/day, but that can't be right because it's not much more than a third of the price of a Glove of Storing.

Darrin
2010-12-19, 05:14 PM
Just one thing; what does the Glove of the Master Strategist do? I googled it and I found that it was like a Glove of Storing but also gives True Strike 1/day, but that can't be right because it's not much more than a third of the price of a Glove of Storing.

That's because the Glove of the Master Strategist was based on the 3.0 price of the Glove of Storing. When the Glove of Storing was updated to 3.5, the price was increased to 10000 GP.

However, when Ghostwalk was updated to 3.5, neither the update nor any of the errata touched the price of the Glove of the Master Strategist. So by RAW 3.5, it still costs 3600 GP. Which is very nice, because 10000 GP is too stinkin' expensive for a Glove of Storing.

Akal Saris
2010-12-19, 05:58 PM
I like that 3,600g strikes you as too low for gloves, but 100g for a DC 84 poison seems perfect for your game :smalltongue:

Besides the Chaos Flask, I believe Shapesand from Sandstorm has similar properties.

Callista
2010-12-19, 07:17 PM
I want devastation vermin venom because it's unsaveable, and I want it pre-epic for free.If your DM actually lets you do this, make sure you also ask for a Sword of True Strike. Either that, or prepare to fight constructs and undead for the forseeable future.

Lateral
2010-12-19, 08:37 PM
I like that 3,600g strikes you as too low for gloves, but 100g for a DC 84 poison seems perfect for your game :smalltongue:

Besides the Chaos Flask, I believe Shapesand from Sandstorm has similar properties.

It doesn't strike me as too low. It just wasn't in line with a Glove of Storing.

Is a Chaos Flask single-use?


If your DM actually lets you do this, make sure you also ask for a Sword of True Strike. Either that, or prepare to fight constructs and undead for the forseeable future.
Hey, no need to go there. I'm doing it like this because the DCs for poisons are too frickin' low to be any good at later levels. Poison is a generally sub-optimal option, so... yeah.

Azernak0
2010-12-19, 10:07 PM
I'm doing it like this because the DCs for poisons are too frickin' low to be any good at later levels. Poison is a generally sub-optimal option, so... yeah.

Your best bet is to ask the DM to include some kind of homebrew for poisons because the DC's are wacky. You basically get Poisons that are overpowered at low level but useless at mid level play or Poisons that even epic saves would probably fail against. Adding a mechanism for creating your own Poisons with a different DC would work. I have had DM's that let people use Poisons that just add damage rather than doing ability damage.

The "doing it because it's sub-optimal" isn't a perfect reason to get a Poison for 'free' that will more or less obliterate anything that is not immune to it. That's like saying "I made a Sword and Board Fighter that does several thousands of damage a round because they are generally sub-optimal." You have to wonder "What will getting a Poison that will kill a Great Wyrm Dragon 95% do to the game?"

bartman
2010-12-19, 10:20 PM
If you are allowed to use 3rd party (and possibly 3.0, haven't checked the dates) material, then i highly recommend This (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=2101&it=1) book.

Also, Akal Saris has a really handy handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) on BG that i have used a bit, very helpful

Callista
2010-12-19, 11:25 PM
Your best bet is to ask the DM to include some kind of homebrew for poisons because the DC's are wacky. You basically get Poisons that are overpowered at low level but useless at mid level play or Poisons that even epic saves would probably fail against. Adding a mechanism for creating your own Poisons with a different DC would work. I have had DM's that let people use Poisons that just add damage rather than doing ability damage.

The "doing it because it's sub-optimal" isn't a perfect reason to get a Poison for 'free' that will more or less obliterate anything that is not immune to it. That's like saying "I made a Sword and Board Fighter that does several thousands of damage a round because they are generally sub-optimal." You have to wonder "What will getting a Poison that will kill a Great Wyrm Dragon 95% do to the game?"This.

How about working up some mechanics for Craft (Poisonmaking) to distill toxins with various DCs? The end result should be aimed at DCs similar to the saves that a spellcaster of your level could force an enemy to make--so if you're about level 15, aim for DC 20-25 poisons or thereabouts. You'll need to look at what the existing poisons cost to generate a sensible item cost for the newly made poison.

Darrin
2010-12-19, 11:49 PM
I like that 3,600g strikes you as too low for gloves, but 100g for a DC 84 poison seems perfect for your game :smalltongue:


If only my players would optimize like that! Then I could pull some really *nasty* tricks on them.

(They seem to be aware that anything they can do, I can do, only ten times worse.)

The DC 84 poison doesn't bother me, but turning 1010 GP into 86,130,000 GP of poison could be interesting:

"You want to sell what? Sorry, come back tomorrow, we're a little busy today... got to get these last few hundred crates of Black Lotus Extract moving, the King wants to finish the poison wa-- I mean, the city walls by the end of the week."

Coidzor
2010-12-20, 12:42 AM
The best way I know is a 15th level wizard or a 15th level cleric with the Trickery domain (wizard is frail and gets worse BAB and so will be harder-put to use it, but Cleric can only use it as a domain slot).

Poison Spell Feat.


Also, what is the earliest-level way to get access to free animal-based (actually, vermin-based) poisons?

The earliest level with access to free animal-based poisons is 1st level with a wizard's tiny viper (PHB) or sea snake (Stormwarck) familiar.

Alternatively, the earliest level to get free, vermin-based poison is Druid 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040705a), with three options, monstrous Large centipede, Medium scorpion, and Medium spider.


Hmm.. some way of obtaining Trickery Domain on top of Ur-Priest might set things off earlier, level 13 without using a bard or sommat to meet the skill rank pre-requisites earlier. Then again, depending upon your needs, you might be able to get away with two scrolls of PAO as soon as you can afford 'em. Or, if you have an artificer in the party you could again do it at level 13, if I recall their item creation mechanics properly.

Lateral
2010-12-24, 09:40 AM
Apparently, I made a thread about this exact subject two months ago, Devastation Poison and all, and completely forgot about it. :smallredface:

I got pretty much the same responses, too; Darrin suggested Chaos Flask, and Callista got mad at me for cheese. :smalltongue:

Callista
2010-12-24, 12:05 PM
Yep, then and now. Hey, if you did it in my game, I'd be threatening to smack you with my DMG...

But you'll note that this time around, I did make a suggestion that would allow you to use poison in a more balanced, but still useful fashion. I agree with the people who said that poison is annoyingly either easy to save against or impossible to save against; what you need is a poison that's strong enough to be a useful strategy, while still being balanced so that it won't make your DM resort to constructs-and-undead strategy. It's not like I'm saying no, don't use it; I'm just saying find a way to use it that's actually fair.

Coidzor
2010-12-24, 12:09 PM
Or even, find a way to use it that'll let you continue to use it.

Lateral
2010-12-24, 12:25 PM
Yep, then and now. Hey, if you did it in my game, I'd be threatening to smack you with my DMG...

But you'll note that this time around, I did make a suggestion that would allow you to use poison in a more balanced, but still useful fashion. I agree with the people who said that poison is annoyingly either easy to save against or impossible to save against; what you need is a poison that's strong enough to be a useful strategy, while still being balanced so that it won't make your DM resort to constructs-and-undead strategy. It's not like I'm saying no, don't use it; I'm just saying find a way to use it that's actually fair.

Yeah, that's fair enough. I'm not doing this in any real game. This isn't really that bad in some kinds of sandbox campaigns, though.