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Moginheden
2010-12-19, 02:02 PM
I'm a level 5 rogue about to go assassin next level. When I hit ECL 9 I'm planning on picking up the obtain familiar feat from complete arcane, (I think I can get this at 9, but not 6 if I'm reading the feat right.)

I'm planning on using this to summon a sea snake from stormwrack, (DC12 1d6 con damage poison.) With this snake and my craft(alchemy) skill I expect to be able to coat each of my weapons with a single dose of this poison once per combat, and to have my snake coiled around my arm attacking every time I do for more possible poisoning.

What I'm wondering is:
-can I get a higher DC than 12 to use this way?
-can I re-coat my weapons in combat without wasting a round and causing an attack of opportunity?
-would it be worth it to get improved familiar, (that's at ECL 12 for me I think)

Akimu
2010-12-19, 02:36 PM
I play a Rog10/Asn8 currently and use poisons quite a bit. To re coat a weapon is a standard action and provokes AOO. Maybe if you have quickdraw feat you can negotiate that down to a move action? I know my DM doesnt allow.

Popertop
2010-12-19, 02:39 PM
there is a special scabbard attachment you can get to have your blades coated when you sheathe them.
i think there are other fast application of poison feats somewhere.

Akimu
2010-12-19, 02:43 PM
there is a special scabbard attachment you can get to have your blades coated when you sheathe them.
i think there are other fast application of poison feats somewhere.

Still without quickdraw the scabbard isnt going to stop the AOO's, nor would it save time after the initial draw of the weapon. Good idea, but you still need to invest in quickdraw

Popertop
2010-12-19, 02:56 PM
isn't there a way to get your weapon to 'leak' the poison?

i remember having a discussion with my DM about a sword that leaked oil of impact, of course that's different, but I think a sword with a poison container would be fairly simple to come up with

Flickerdart
2010-12-19, 03:15 PM
Giving your familiar CON-boosting magic items before you apply the poison will raise the DC, and I believe certain feats or magic weapons increase poison DCs further.

bartman
2010-12-19, 05:58 PM
Couple of points

1) This is a great link: Poison Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) (Thank You AkalSaris)

2) If you are allowed third party books, This (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=2101&it=1http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=2101&it=1) is a great book, and is pretty cheap also. My GM as well as I have used it to great effect.

tribble
2010-12-19, 11:50 PM
*enters thread*

Hi guys what's going on in-

*people are talking about poison in prolonged combat*

WHAT ARE YOU DOING

seriously, poison was invented so one doesn't need to stay and fence. put it in their meal, put it in their wine,if you get really slow poison, get their sweetheart to eat some. Get contact poison and put it in their clothes, bedsheets and bathwater, If you have to use it in combat, spray it in your targets eyes and book it. you can come back in a couple of seconds to finish them while they writhe about in pain, or save the trouble of walking and use a hand crossbow instead.

Flickerdart
2010-12-20, 12:37 AM
Yeah, the thing about that? That's not how poison works in D&D. Aside from the primary stat damage, and the secondary stat damage one whole minute later, nobody is going to be doing any writhing. It's also very bloody unlikely to finish anybody off, so the best use of poisons is CON damage to reduce their HP and saves against further doses of the poison that you stab them with in your next attack.

Now, aboleth mucus? Aboleth mucus is good with the writhing, but it's not a poison.

Akal Saris
2010-12-20, 01:19 AM
Sounds like a cool idea, Moginheden :)


-can I get a higher DC than 12 to use this way?

Potentially, yes. If the DM lets you choose feats for your familiar, it can take Ability Focus (Poison) and have DC 14 poison. If you share any spell that raises your constitution, such as Bear's Endurance, the DC will go up as well. So that could raise the DC to 16 quite easily. Unfortunately, DC 16 is just barely cutting it at level 6 - a lot of opponents will simply make their saves against it.

You can share several spells with the snake, including Alter Self. Teach your familiar to Alter Self itself into some other poisonous animal or magical beast, like a slightly bigger sea snake. That will also increase the DC. Later on the familiar can hold the charge on a Poison spell and deliver it for you, which is awesome.

You can also try to lower opponents' saves with the help of your party members. If the opponent is shaken or sickened, that's -2 to his saves each time.

-can I re-coat my weapons in combat without wasting a round and causing an attack of opportunity?

Yes, if you take the Master of Poisons feat from Drow of the Underdark. Anyone can take it, and it gives you poison use (redundant) and makes poisoning your weapon a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

However, feats are expensive! Here are some cheap items that let you apply poisons mid-battle:

Hilt Hollow from Dungeonscape: Carries 1 hidden poison and can apply as a swift action. 200gp.

Triple Weapon Capsule Retainer from C. Adventurer: For 450g, this allows you to store up to three injury poisons in a melee or thrown weapon. As a swift action, you can apply 1, 2 or all 3 of the injury poisons held to the weapon. While its probably unintentional that you can use this to stack 3 poisons at once, even without that ability this allows a poison user to quickly switch poisons on a melee weapon, or replace them in the middle of a fight, effectively granting the speedy poisoning ability of the Master of Poisons feat to anyone who has the normal Poison Use ability.

[B]-would it be worth it to get improved familiar, (that's at ECL 12 for me I think)

It depends. I certainly would, because an improved familiar is more than a poison dispenser, it's also a second set of eyes, a scout, and a decent combatant. You could get an Imp, for example, and rock out with your invisible evil buddy with his own poison.

But there are a lot of other good assassin feats out there. Outside of core, Craven, Darkstalker, and Master of Poisons all immediately come to mind. So I would see how much fun you have with the snake, and then decide if it's worth upgrading.

Flickerdart
2010-12-20, 01:39 AM
Do not forget Practiced Spellcaster if you need to bump your CL up for a better familiar.

Ryuuk
2010-12-20, 01:47 AM
Well, with regards to the DC, you could show you DM the line in the familiar description where it says it is considered to have as many HD as you with regards to effects that depend on HD. Then you could show him the Viper (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm), and how its Save DC for poison is equal to 10+(HD/2)+Con.

Lastly you could ask him if he could rule that your familiar's poison DC increases as you gain HD. This ruling would turn an almost useless part of your familiar into something that might come in handy through out your career.

Moginheden
2010-12-20, 05:03 PM
Well, with regards to the DC, you could show you DM the line in the familiar description where it says it is considered to have as many HD as you with regards to effects that depend on HD. Then you could show him the Viper (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm), and how its Save DC for poison is equal to 10+(HD/2)+Con.

Lastly you could ask him if he could rule that your familiar's poison DC increases as you gain HD. This ruling would turn an almost useless part of your familiar into something that might come in handy through out your career.


Poison (Ex)
A viper snake has a poisonous bite that deals initial and secondary damage of 1d6 Con. The save DC varies by the snake’s size, as shown on the table below. The save DCs are Constitution-based.
I don't see a mention of HD in the viper's description. Where are you getting that formula from?

RebelRogue
2010-12-20, 07:06 PM
I don't see a mention of HD in the viper's description. Where are you getting that formula from?
It's the general formula for a DC based on an attribute.

Moginheden
2010-12-20, 07:14 PM
It's the general formula for a DC based on an attribute.

What book/page is that from?

RebelRogue
2010-12-20, 08:17 PM
What book/page is that from?
It's here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) in the SRD. I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in the back of the MM.