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falcon36
2010-12-19, 02:18 PM
As the title suggests, a Master Thrower that uses poisoned weapons. He has a summoner buddy who makes the poisons for him so we don't have to worry about that.

I was wondering how to go about making the thrower at a low enough level that would keep poisons the most effective. Say starting level 6 or 7.

I only have access to Completes, SRD, and UA. No Psionics and the race is human.

I'm really not even sure how to go about starting a Master Thrower class.

EDIT: If I had access to ToB for Bloodstorm Blade and minimum entry requirements for that class, how would this change?

The_Scourge
2010-12-19, 02:30 PM
Rogue is a good entry class, your lower BAB will matter less one you get the capstone ability, or fighter if you want to invest some feats in things other than pre-reqs.
If you can get your DM to allow pathfinder. Master thrower synergizes nicely with thrown weapons because of his bombs and he can use his alchemy abilities to craft and improve poisons.

EDIT: a link for the alchemist http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist

SurlySeraph
2010-12-19, 02:44 PM
A level in Rogue for the Sleight of Hand ranks is usual for going into Master Thrower, though you can get 4 cross-class ranks with a full BAB class at 5th level if you want to enter as early as possible.

Rogue 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 4/ Master Thrower 1, using Daring Outlaw, works well. Insightful Strike probably applies to thrown light weapons, though your DM might rule otherwise.

Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 3/ Master Thrower 2 is a slightly earlier entry. Feats: you get Weapon Finesse and Quick Draw for free, you need to take Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Weapon Focus, and you have 3 feats free. I'd definitely take Rapid Shot, Knowledge Devotion is a good way to improve your attacks, and Education is a 1st-level-only feat that makes all Knowledges class skills, which is excellent with Knowledge Devotion.

You'll want either Poison Use or an easy way to avoid being poisoned. The Assassination weapon enhancement, from the Cityscape web enhancement, is a good one; you can put it darts or other ammunition to save on cost. Otherwise, pick up a level in Assassin or get high saves vs. poison.

falcon36
2010-12-20, 07:21 AM
If I were to use the Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Master Thrower 2, I'm guessing the character should focus on dex and int?

Also, I've always wondered about the Thrower. How does he do a full attack? Say he took Rapid Shot and Palm Throw at +6 BAB. That would give him 2 normal attacks at +4/-1 and then a Rapid Shot attack at +4. This means he needs 6 things to throw right? So if he has, for example, 6 daggers on his belt, he can throw all 6 of them.

What happens with the Returning Property though? the DMG says the Returning weapon is ready to use again in that turn. Does that mean I can just have 2 Returning daggers and still make all three attacks? (Since Palm Throw throws 2 things at once).

Also, what's the range of a throwing dagger? It says 10ft in PHB which makes me wonder if I can only throw things from 10 ft away

Eloel
2010-12-20, 07:28 AM
Also, what's the range of a throwing dagger? It says 10ft in PHB which makes me wonder if I can only throw things from 10 ft away

10ft range increments. For thrown weapons, maximum range is 5 increments. (so, 50ft) You get -1 (or was it -2?) to attack rolls for every increment beyond the first.

Salanmander
2010-12-20, 11:52 AM
For getting poison use, it may be worth considering being a poison dusk lizardfolk (monster manual 3), if that would be appropriate for the campaign, rather than taking a level in assassin. It's LA +1 (so, takes up the same space as an assassin level, but does so at level 1), and nets you small size with a 30 ft. move speed, natural attacks, natural armor, and poison use. I forget what it's stat modifiers are, but I believe it has at least a penalty to str and a bonus to dex, which is just peachy for a master thrower.

So, compared to an assassin level, you lose one hit die, some saves (which is unfortunate), and the useless-when-dipping death attack, and gain at least +2 to-hit (if you were medium before), +2 AC, and natural attacks. Plus you get poison use from the very beginning.

EDIT: They're better than I remembered. +2 dex, +2 con, -2 cha for stat modifiers, their natural armor is +3, and they get some nifty incidental bonuses (like +5 to hide when their skin is mostly visible).

SurlySeraph
2010-12-20, 04:21 PM
There's also Jungle Halfling (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#jungleHalflings), for LA +0, free Poison Use, and the halfling throwing bonus. Pity you can't combine it with Strongheart Halfling to get a bonus feat as well.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-20, 08:02 PM
Rogue 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 4/ Master Thrower 1, using Daring Outlaw, works well.
I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish with Rogue + Sneak Attack Fighter. Each of them gets the same sneak attack ability, which doesn't include language allowing it to stack. Similarly, Daring Outlaw only lets Rogue and Swashbuckler levels stack for sneak attack ─ not Fighter levels. You would need to add another class with sneak attack, which includes language allowing it to stack with all other sources, to get any benefit from the sneak attack Fighter.

SurlySeraph
2010-12-20, 09:12 PM
I don't agree with that interpretation of the ruling that abilities with the same name don't stack, and it's the first time I've seen it interpreted that way. It's certainly more reasonable than something like saying that a Fighter 2/ Martial Rogue 2/ Psychic Warrior 2/ Monk 2 would have the same number and selection of bonus feats as a Fighter 8, but I still disagree with it.

Akal Saris
2010-12-20, 10:00 PM
In Completes, core, and UA, I believe these are the options for poison use:

Jungle Halfling
Assassin 1
Blackguard 1 or 2
Ninja 2

Personally, I'd go for a Jungle Halfling Rogue/Swashbuckler/Master Thrower, grabbing Deadeye Shot, Palm Throw, and Weak Shot.

Jungle Halfling Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Master Thrower 5/Swaskbuckler +9
Feats:
1: PBS
3: Precise Shot
4: Weapon Finesse [SB 1[
6: Weapon Focus (Dagger)
7: Quick Draw [MT 1]
9: Daring Outlaw
10: Snatch Arrows [MT 4]
11: Improved critical (dagger) [MT 5]
12: Two-weapon fighting

Don't forget that C. Scoundrel has several good poisons you can use!

Curmudgeon
2010-12-21, 12:02 AM
I don't agree with that interpretation of the ruling that abilities with the same name don't stack, and it's the first time I've seen it interpreted that way.
Really? It's pretty easy to find examples.
Does the Armor Class bonus ability from the monk, swordsage, and ninja stack?
No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the same name more then once.

falcon36
2010-12-21, 08:35 AM
Jungle Halfling Rogue/Swashbuckler/Master Thrower, grabbing Deadeye Shot, Palm Throw, and Weak Shot.


I understand Palm Throw and Weak Shot, but could you explain your choice of deadeye shot? Because I thought that Two with One Blow would be more useful
since the poison had the potential of being delivered to two targets for one does. Or does that not work?

Also, if Poison Use were not a problem (say that the character only applies poison on assassination weapons or has someone else do the applying for him) what would be a good race to use?

Also, the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades. It says activation is a swift action which lends me to believe that it can only be activated once per round. What's the ruling?

Ernir
2010-12-21, 08:45 AM
I understand Palm Throw and Weak Shot, but could you explain your choice of deadeye shot? Because I thought that Two with One Blow would be more useful
since the poison had the potential of being delivered to two targets for one does. Or does that not work?
Looks like Two with One Blow works like that to me. It might be a better choice.

Deadeye shot synergizes with the Improved Critical you're getting for free on the 5th Master Thrower level, though.

Also, if Poison Use were not a problem (say that the character only applies poison on assassination weapons or has someone else do the applying for him) what would be a good race to use?
In Core + Completes + UA? Human. An extra feat is good.

But I'd still go with Jungle Halfling. Poison Use is handy if you're going to be using poisons at all, and halflings get a very significant net bonus on thrown weapons.

Also, the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades. It says activation is a swift action which lends me to believe that it can only be activated once per round. What's the ruling?
Yup, you got it right.

falcon36
2010-12-21, 09:01 AM
So I'm guessing I couldn't produce enough daggers with the guantlet of infinite blades in one round for a full round attack that round right?

If that really doesn't work like that, how do master dagger throwers equip themselves for a fight?

The_Scourge
2010-12-21, 11:31 AM
Lots of knives.
The main problem with throwers is DR and the sheer number of magic weapons you need to be effective. Shurken are one way to offset this since they're enchanted like ammunition (50 at a time). I just flavour them as throwing knives. And then have one or two returning daggers for consistency and for dights you don't want to waste shuriken on.

SurlySeraph
2010-12-21, 03:38 PM
Really? It's pretty easy to find examples.

Yes, I'm well aware of that rule. However, I've never seen it applied that way to abilities that you can receive multiple times from the same class, such as sneak attack or bonus feats; and I've seen it applied otherwise in enough builds to consider a level of Sneak Attack Fighter, Spellthief, Psychic Rogue, or any other class that gives +1d6 Sneak Attack at first level a viable way to get +1d6 Sneak Attack, much like the interpretation that a multiclass character with levels in Fighter, Psychic Warrior, Wizard, Champion of Corellon, or any other class that provides bonus feats gets bonus feats at the listed levels rather than somehow merging his various classes' bonus feat progressions together.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-21, 06:16 PM
Yes, I'm well aware of that rule. However, I've never seen it applied that way to abilities that you can receive multiple times from the same class, such as sneak attack or bonus feats; and I've seen it applied otherwise in enough builds to consider a level of Sneak Attack Fighter, Spellthief, Psychic Rogue, or any other class that gives +1d6 Sneak Attack at first level a viable way to get +1d6 Sneak Attack If you have no other sources of sneak attack there's no stacking issue. And some of these classes are designed to stack sneak attack, and say so.

If a spellthief gets a sneak attack bonus from another source (such as rogue levels), the bonuses on damage stack. Others are designed to be your main source of sneak attack (primarily Rogues), and these won't stack with each other unless combined with a class which includes stacking language.

SurlySeraph
2010-12-21, 08:48 PM
I'd never noticed that some SA-progressing base classes have clauses about stacking and others don't. You're correct by RAW, then.

Zaq
2010-12-21, 09:54 PM
Curmudgeon, would a strict reading of that "same name" rule mean that a Fighter 1 / Psychic Warrior 1 couldn't take two bonus feats, since they're both from a class feature called "Bonus Feat" and don't explicitly say that they stack? If not, why not?

tyckspoon
2010-12-21, 10:18 PM
Curmudgeon, would a strict reading of that "same name" rule mean that a Fighter 1 / Psychic Warrior 1 couldn't take two bonus feats, since they're both from a class feature called "Bonus Feat" and don't explicitly say that they stack? If not, why not?

They're not 'modifiers' under the terms of the stacking rules- that is, "any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll"- and so have nothing to do with stacking at all. You can get as many bonus feats as you can stomach dipping frontloaded melee classes for.

Zaq
2010-12-21, 10:24 PM
SA dice aren't modifiers, either. At least, not under how I read the D&D definition. They aren't bonuses to a die roll; they are themselves die rolls. That's why they're not multiplied on crits, despite a crit using "all your usual bonuses."

Curmudgeon
2010-12-21, 11:08 PM
SA dice aren't modifiers, either. At least, not under how I read the D&D definition. They aren't bonuses to a die roll; they are themselves die rolls.
But there's nothing keeping dice rolls from being used to modify other dice rolls, so that expression in dice doesn't change the category.
bonus

A positive modifier to a die roll. In most cases, multiple bonuses from the same source or of the same type in effect on the same character or object do not stack; only the highest bonus of that type applies. Bonuses that don't have a specific type always stack with all bonuses. Dice rolls produce positive results. When that positive modifier is applied to another roll (as sneak attack is applied to damage), it falls under the stacking rules.

Also note that sneak attack, while it's always a positive modifier, needn't be expressed only in dice. The Craven feat makes your sneak attack damage bonus have both dice (variable) and non-dice (static) components.

Perhaps you were reading "positive modifier" and for some reason thinking of it as "positive static modifier"?

falcon36
2010-12-23, 12:10 PM
Another Question on this Thrown Weapon Character.

If I had access to Tome of Battles for minimum requirements, how would that change things? I've read the Bloodstorm Blade but my DM isn't too fond of ToB so he's just as likely to just say no.

Forged Fury
2010-12-23, 12:45 PM
SA Discussion
Based on that reading, if someone were to have a Sneak Attack Fighter 3 / Rogue 3, they would roll 2d6 twice for SA damage and take the highest result? That's interesting. I've never seen it in a game.

falcon36
2010-12-23, 12:53 PM
Based on that reading, if someone were to have a Sneak Attack Fighter 3 / Rogue 3, they would roll 2d6 twice for SA damage and take the highest result? That's interesting. I've never seen it in a game.

Wouldn't it be they take one of the two 2d6 SA as their SA damage since they are both equal modifiers?
Like if you had two +2 Bracers of Armor and you only receive the bonus of one

Curmudgeon
2010-12-23, 12:55 PM
The difference is that a static +2 is always a known quantity; 2d6 is some number in the 2-12 range, and not known until actually rolled.

It's the same with the Factotum Cunning Strike ability: they can spend as many inspiration points as they want for 1d6 of sneak attack, but those overlap. More dice just increase the chances of adding +6 to the damage.

falcon36
2010-12-23, 01:04 PM
But is the +2d6 of SA itself the "positive modifier"
or is the result of it the "positive modifier"?

I always thought that the 2d6 was the bonus and since you only get one bonus, you would only get one 2d6 roll

The factotum's ability is slightly different because you spend the inspiration afterwards to roll a new 1d6 that replaces the old one. At least, that's how I thought of it

Forged Fury
2010-12-23, 01:08 PM
Hmmm... Curmudgeon, how would your interpretation work with the Ambush feats?

Consider the same character, a little further along in levels (Rogue 6, SA Fighter 3) with the Concussion Attack Ambush feat. Could they trade in the 2d6 damage from SA fighter for the Concussion Attack benefit and still deal full 3d6 SA damage from their Rogue levels? The Concussion Attack is no longer a modifier to the character's damage so the stacking rules would conceivably no longer apply.

Forged Fury
2010-12-23, 01:11 PM
But is the +2d6 of SA itself the "positive modifier"
or is the result of it the "positive modifier"?
Based on the definition Curmudgeon supplied, it would have to be the result. 2d6 is a variable number, you could simply replace it with X for all intents and purposes. You can't tell your DM that you do 5+X damage to your opponent and leave it at that, therefore 2d6 isn't capable of modifying a number yet. Of course, that interpretation could undermine the argument that SA is a "modifier" for stacking purposes.

falcon36
2010-12-23, 01:15 PM
Since only one of bonuses apply, I would imagine the Ambush feat to subtract from the bonus being applied. Meaning if the PC had +3d6 SA from both Rogue and SA Fighter and applied the Ambush to the bonus from the Rogue, he would have to reapply the Ambush to the SA Fighter if he wanted to use the Fighter's bonus instead.

But X itself is a positive modifier. It may not be a defined modifier, but it is positive nonetheless. If X1 and X2 have the same range, they are, in effect, the same bonus in terms of ultimate probability. Therefore, I would imagine that the Bonus is only one of the two Xs, not the result.

Forged Fury
2010-12-23, 01:29 PM
Since only one of bonuses apply, I would imagine the Ambush feat to subtract from the bonus being applied. Meaning if the PC had +3d6 SA from both Rogue and SA Fighter and applied the Ambush to the bonus from the Rogue, he would have to reapply the Ambush to the SA Fighter if he wanted to use the Fighter's bonus instead.

But X itself is a positive modifier. It may not be a defined modifier, but it is positive nonetheless. If X1 and X2 have the same range, they are, in effect, the same bonus in terms of ultimate probability. Therefore, I would imagine that the Bonus is only one of the two Xs, not the result.
A modifier needs to be a static integer in order to achieve a final number. In my example above, X1 and X2 don't even have the same range. X1 (SA Fighter) ranges from 2-12, X2 (Rogue) ranges from 3-18, but the end modifier of X1 could still be higher once probability is rendered moot (i.e. the dice are rolled). Stacking doesn't say you take the feature that provides the highest probability of a modifier, you take the highest modifier.

Assuming a 5 Rogue / 5 SA Fighter, I would argue that you could roll 3d6 on the Rogue side and 1d6 + Concussion effect on the Fighter side. Compare the 3d6 vs. 1d6 damage values, apply the highest of those, and then apply the Concussion Strike effect. 2d6 of the Fighter's damage has been converted to a status effect and is no longer a modifier or the probability of a modifier, so it's irrelevant to stacking discussions. It's essentially a status effect that you're applying to an opponent.

Personally, I think Rogue and SA Fighter SA damage stacks and UA is just an older book that didn't include extremely descriptive text on how things work. Confusion like the above is why I think it is far easier to treat them as if they do stack. I also have to wonder, if sneak attack damage is a modifier, what kind of modifier is it? Circumstance would be the most likely and would sink any stacking unless otherwise specified, but it doesn't specify, which means it's untyped. The ultimate question is whether fighter and rogue levels are the "same source". There's another (incredibly similar) argument going on in the AC thread about "same source" issues and whether different classes represent the "same source". No need to rehash it here.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-23, 01:57 PM
Hmmm... Curmudgeon, how would your interpretation work with the Ambush feats?
Ambush feats would be a way to do something useful with otherwise overlapping sneak attack. Concussion Attack would largely bypass the sneak attack stacking issue (though not entirely, as it still leaves 1d6 sneak attack) because it replaces a modifier to the attacker's damage roll with a modifier to the target's checks.

Personally, I think they do stack and UA is just an older book that didn't include extremely descriptive text on how things work.
That doesn't seem to be the case; the assumption that you had to have an explicit exception to the stacking limits was built into 3rd edition D&D when it was released in 2000. From page 30 of the 3.0 Dungeon Master's Guide:
If an assassin gets a sneak attack bonus from another source (such as rogue levels), the bonuses to damage stack.

Forged Fury
2010-12-23, 02:07 PM
That doesn't seem to be the case; the assumption that you had to have an explicit exception to the stacking limits was built into 3rd edition D&D when it was released in 2000.
That really could simply be a clarification. In fact, the text you quote explicitly states that the sneak attack bonus from rogue levels is "from another source". Now, the argument is whether "another" in this context = "not the same".

Curmudgeon
2010-12-23, 03:07 PM
That really could simply be a clarification.
In one example, that's possible. In every example, it's a rules necessity. All the sneak attack core classes in both 3.0 and 3.5 D&D except the Rogue have stacking language. There are over 6 dozen classes that grant sneak attack, and all but a few have such stacking language. So no, it's not just an occasional clarification; it's the natural consequence of the basic D&D stacking rules.

Forged Fury
2010-12-23, 03:50 PM
I think it's reasonable to assume that multiple base classes providing sneak attack was something that was unanticipated by the designers.

Does anyone have the text from UA concerning the variant? I only have the SRD to go off of. An argument can be made that it's stackable as it says that the Fighter gains "Sneak Attack (as rogue)"

In any event, I still maintain that the repeated text references can easily be a clarification. Particularly considering that, in this thread alone, we have multiple perceptions of whether sneak attacks are modifiers falling under the stacking rules at all. Since the rogue class doesn't even mention additional potential sources of sneak attack damage, the text is somewhat of a necessity for PRCs.

falcon36
2010-12-24, 09:58 AM
Another question on the original topic

How are the Paragon classes?

Would, for example Human Paragon 3/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 1/Master Thrower 5 be worth it?
I would get 7(?) feats at ECL 6
I could get the +2 ability in Dex
PBS, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Dagger), TWF, Combat Reflexes, Far Shot/Rapid Shot, and Master of Poisons (DoTU) would be the feats I would choose
and I would get Weapon Finesse to boot

at 9 and 12 I would advance TWF feats
Thrown Weapon Tricks would probably be Two with One, Palm Shot, and Weak Shot
and then I don't know what I would do.

Forged Fury
2010-12-24, 12:20 PM
Do you need Quick Draw somewhere in that build?

falcon36
2010-12-24, 01:14 PM
I forgot to include the Bonus Feats from Master Thrower
I would get Quick draw at 7, Snatch Arrows at 10 and Improved Crit (Dagger) at 11

The biggest question is whether that seems better than the Jungle Halfing Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Master Thrower 5.

I also still don't have a great solution to the matter of weapons since starting level for the campaign is 6

Forged Fury
2010-12-24, 02:00 PM
I'd question whether insightful strike works on ranged weapons. While it does say "any light weapons" the rest of the text indicates it was intended for melee weapons, since it discusses "finesse attacks" and the Weapon Finesse feat. Dropping Swashbuckler 3 to 1 would make you less MAD since you could drop some of your INT as well.

I do like the Halfling better just for the the throwing and size bonuses to hit, plus it already provides the +2 Dex bonus. Not a big fan of climate-racial variants, but to each their own. You could even go halfling paragon and pick up some other throwing bonuses and a further Dex boost. If you're focusing on poison, the most important things are to increase your ability to hit.

If you're playing Eberron, you might want to consider the Black Dog PrC (although there are additional feat requirements to consider).

Curmudgeon
2010-12-24, 05:25 PM
Rogue 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 4/ Master Thrower 1, using Daring Outlaw, works well. Insightful Strike probably applies to thrown light weapons, though your DM might rule otherwise.
Any DM should rule otherwise, because there's no such thing as a ranged light weapon. Light is a melee weapon classification only.
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons

This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon. Insightful Strike is only applicable in melee.