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View Full Version : [PF/3.5] If you could run a 3 man crew...



Rasman
2010-12-19, 08:04 PM
I'm currently getting into a campaign where we have to create 3 characters. One 16th level, one 14th level and one 12th level. They would have to know one another and belong to this "guild" that basically works like any other guild, giving out contracts for jobs and such. There are plothooks involving the guild, but I won't get into those.

In thinking about this, I don't really know what a good 3 man team would be. Most focuses involve figuring out how to optimize ONE character, but optimizing a 3 man squad is TOTALLY different. It can technically be 4 since ONE of our characters can take Leadership.

So, as a means to brainstorm, I come to you Playgrounders for your creative awesomeness. If you were in my shoes, what would your crack squad be?

Gnaeus
2010-12-19, 08:10 PM
Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Archivist, Artificer.

Pick any 3. At that level, they can cover any role they want, better than the classes designed to fill that role. If you are really worried about traps, either make sure you have an artificer or pick a beguiler or factotum as the cohort.

gkathellar
2010-12-19, 08:13 PM
Psionic Artificier, Dread Necromancer/Rainbow Servant, Druid/Planar Shepherd, Spell-to-Power Erudite.

You don't need to optimize as a team if all four of you can break the game!

Gnaeus
2010-12-19, 08:18 PM
Yeah, if you are really cranking up the power level to tier 0, Ur Priest or Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer should also get a mention. I mean, your 16th level guy should get 9th level spells, right?

Toliudar
2010-12-19, 08:27 PM
Given the level disparities, I'd say that it would be more useful to pick from a mix of tiers, to give everyone an opportunity to shine. Super-optimizing an entire group tends to lead towards rocket-tag encounters, which are fun the first couple of times, but not conducive to long term survival - or enjoyment.

I'd suggest looking at a tier 2 class for the level 12 character - a psion or sorcerer can still do a great deal, even several levels below the others. A tier 3 (rogue, beguiler, or a ToB class?) for the level 14 character, and a tier 4 for the "senior" partner at level 16.

WeeFreeMen
2010-12-19, 08:41 PM
2 Wizards, 1 Cleric (Leadership), Cohort: Druid

Cleric being the lv16
Wizards at 14/12
Cohort being 14 (or 15 with feat, but meh)

Cleric as acting tank/buffer
Wizards 1 Blasty 1 Utility/Control
Druid as either Heal-bot or Buffer or Tripper/Flanker/Cleric flanking buddy
---------------
While blasty wizard is looked down upon.. I believe only 1 control wiz is needed..
plus throwing meteors at a battlefield is fun.

-PS: please excuse grammar and spelling, doing this on phone.

Gnaeus
2010-12-19, 08:41 PM
Given the level disparities, I'd say that it would be more useful to pick from a mix of tiers, to give everyone an opportunity to shine. Super-optimizing an entire group tends to lead towards rocket-tag encounters, which are fun the first couple of times, but not conducive to long term survival - or enjoyment.

Toliudar is wrong.

Optimized groups do not lead to rocket tag encounters, unless they are optimized to play rocket tag. A group of tier 1s just means that the party is virtually always effective. Something like a persist cleric or druid may have very little in the way of rocket tag, but will virtually always be useful.

Level 16 Tier 4s, like a charger barbarian, high damage rogue, or mounted paladin, play rocket tag also. They just look like chumps when their rocket isn't appropriate to the situation. If the DM didn't like rocket tag, he shouldn't be running a game at that level.

Dr.Epic
2010-12-19, 08:53 PM
3 man tank crew to cover all front line melee combat, though that;d get boring in terms of RPing so maybe bard/rogue/fighter group.

molten_dragon
2010-12-19, 09:02 PM
Just play 4 druids.

Lateral
2010-12-19, 09:06 PM
Just play 4 druids.

Just play 4 Pun-Puns. :smalltongue:

Okay, more seriously now. Incantatrix, DMM cleric, STP Erudite. If you take a cohort, then Druid.

Dr.Epic
2010-12-19, 09:10 PM
Just play 4 druids.

He said 3 man crew. Wanna check you math there?

Tael
2010-12-19, 09:18 PM
He said 3 man crew. Wanna check you math there?

He can take leadership. Which means he will take leadership. Which means he has 4 druids.

I actually recommend a Sorcerer with the Human racial ACF (PF player's guide), a Factotum w/ Iaijutsu Focus and a Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Windicator. Sorcerer takes a Bard/Warblade Cohort with maxxed out Dragonfire Inspiration.

Amphetryon
2010-12-19, 09:21 PM
Level 16: Duskblade 13/Wyrm Wizard 3. There's a very good Duskblade handbook at Brilliant Gameologists. This guy is your Mailman.

Level 14: Changeling Beguiler 5/Visionary Seeker 1/Beguiler +4/Recaster 4. Skillmonkey, sage, and metamagic expert.

Level 12: Necropolitan Dread Necromancer 12. Corpsecrafter, Leadership, Undead Leadership, Daunting Presence, and your favorite feat requiring Corpsecrafter. This is your minionmancer and - assuming you take Tomb-Tainted Soul for everyone - your healing battery. Use the undead minions to deal with any traps the Beguiler doesn't want to.

Rasman
2010-12-20, 01:34 AM
Just play 4 druids.

I don't think my DM could Bear to deal with that, I'm also playing a Druid in another campaign and really want to play something a little different.

ATM I'm thinking a Pyromancer with a Fighter or Ranger cohort that fights using pistols and no animal companion if I used Ranger...although a Dog would be amusing..., a Pugilist Fighter that doesn't really believe in wearing armor because his muscles would be offended and/or he'd just break it and a Rogue with a Prosthetic Adamantine arm that can be altered into a Dagger or Short Sword.

:smallbiggrin: yes...I went there...

I've actually already made the fighter up to 12th level, so bumping him up to 14th wouldn't be hard. The other 3 would be...interesting...though...

...I kinda sense I'd get smacked by one of the other players if I didn't RP them right...although I do a pretty decent Armstrong...

Psyren
2010-12-20, 01:52 AM
I would have a Wilder/Thrallherd as face+primary caster (satisfying the Leadership allowance without feats), Psychic Rogue as skillmonkey and Tashalatora Ardent gish as tank. The Wilder's thrall would be an Erudite, who could then be a walking library of any utility powers (and spells, if StP Erudite is allowed) the other team members lack, from whom they could manifest.

The Wilder would take the top spot, and her massive Cha + high level would ensure an impressive leadership score, giving me a level 15 thrall. (16+6 = 22, even before Charisma is counted = level 15.) The other two members' levels would depend on whether trapfinding or tanking is a bigger need, though I would be inclined to put the Psyrogue lowest to ensure the highest possible PP total for the group.

When faced with boss encounters or other such high-level challenges, the four of them could open with a Metaconcert, giving them a 5th party member with access to every power they know. They would also each have a psicrystal whom they could share Metamorphosis with for 4 additional tanks if necessary, and more if Astral Constructs are brought to bear.

(Feel free to yell "Let our powers combine!" or "Form Voltron!" before you do this.)

Saint GoH
2010-12-20, 01:59 AM
Hmmm... optimizing one can be no fun, let alone 3-4. Personally I'd go simple here. Make a buffer (dragonfire inspiration bard/crusader with leadership as face?) a main-liner (DMM persist Cleric?) and a arcane caster of some sort. Have the cohort be a rogue for trap finding and what not.

I mean sure you can have 4 druids or Ur-Priests or Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerers... but in terms of RP and plain ol' "Is it fun?" I think that'd quickly get boring and repetitive.

My two coppers...

Roc Ness
2010-12-20, 02:10 AM
The Lowest-Leveled one should be a Crusader with levels of Heartfire Fanner. Heartfire Fanner is good at buffing anything. :smallcool:

Rasman
2010-12-20, 02:39 AM
(Feel free to yell "Let our powers combine!" or "Form Voltron!" before you do this.)

"Alpha, I need Teenagers with Attitude!"

lol...I like it...I don't deal a lot with Psionics though and I'm not sure we can use Psionics but...it would be HORRIBLY amusing...and as for "trapfinding" in our current party, we already have 3 rogues...3...rogues...it's crazy...


Hmmm... optimizing one can be no fun, let alone 3-4. Personally I'd go simple here. Make a buffer (dragonfire inspiration bard/crusader with leadership as face?) a main-liner (DMM persist Cleric?) and a arcane caster of some sort. Have the cohort be a rogue for trap finding and what not.

I mean sure you can have 4 druids or Ur-Priests or Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerers... but in terms of RP and plain ol' "Is it fun?" I think that'd quickly get boring and repetitive.

My two coppers...

yeah...I can sort of agree with you, it's a bit of a pain to do all the research and sometimes I take days or even a full week just to get a concept together

I'm a bit of an Otaku, so it would be TERRIBLY amusing to make characters from Anime I like, I was leaning towards Full Metal Alchemist, but Fairy Tail would be another good source as well since a 4 man Cell would be the four main characters...

This is also a 48 point buy campaign, so we're gonna be deadly no matter how we drop our stats.

I'm DEF going to have a High Cha Face, a high Int Bookworm and a high Blasty McBlast Blast...I mean...some type of caster...I really either want 1 Melee and 3 range/support or 4 in your face types...I really just can't decide what I want to do with this...

and as you mentioned, RP is fun and it's fairly important in our campaign...not to mention we have a Paladin that's based off of Charlton Heston who goes around shouting "I kick ass in the name of Iomedae!" and "Get your hands off me you damn, dirty Wereapes!" so playing a character that has loads of personality and fluff is just as important as not dying and kicking ass


The Lowest-Leveled one should be a Crusader with levels of Heartfire Fanner. Heartfire Fanner is good at buffing anything. :smallcool:

I'm not familiar with Heartfire Fanner, where's it from/what does it do/give?

Roc Ness
2010-12-20, 03:00 AM
I'm not familiar with Heartfire Fanner, where's it from/what does it do/give?

Its from a dragon magazine. At first level (if you don't have any bard levels) it grants the Bardic Music abilities of a 5th level Bard. It then gives you additional types of music that grant bonus feats and non-adjusted metamagic.

It also advances Spellcasting, so you could get 3rd level spells if you slip in a level of something like Cleric, or Sorcerer.

Popertop
2010-12-20, 03:03 AM
a bard a cleric and fighter probably would work.

i'm actually looking into 3 man combo's myself

Zonugal
2010-12-20, 03:50 AM
What type of campaign is it? A war campaign will necessitate different needs over a heist/crime campaign.

Psyren
2010-12-20, 04:09 AM
"Alpha, I need Teenagers with Attitude!"

lol...I like it...I don't deal a lot with Psionics though and I'm not sure we can use Psionics but...it would be HORRIBLY amusing...and as for "trapfinding" in our current party, we already have 3 rogues...3...rogues...it's crazy...

It gets even more fun... make your Erudite Favored Discipline: Psychometabolism. Now he can learn Egoist powers. He is 15, which means 8th-level powers, which means Fusion.

He manifests it three times, hitting each of you in turn, then gives up control to the Wilder. You are now a gestalt entity with the Ardent's Wisdom, the Psyrogue's Dex, the Erudite's Int and the Wilder's Cha. You also have over triple the PP and HP, everyone's best skill mods, Trapfinding, sneak attack, Wild Surge, Elude Touch, Surging Euphoria, Mantles, Monk AC, Flurry and Unarmed Strike damage, all your racial abilities, all good saves, and every power known among the group (including the Erudite's entire repertoire), all at ML 16 before buffs.

You can also do this without a FD Erudite; just wait two levels and he can learn Fusion normally at 17.

AyeGill
2010-12-20, 04:13 AM
I suggest a warblade/ardent/psionic jade phoenix mage for front-line combat, a thrallherd/wilder as the party face, a batman wizard for general utility, a Druid as the first thrall for tanking/general spellcasting, a fleshraker animal companion, and a dread necromancer/ur-priest/theurge for minions/buffing/healing(tomb-tainted soul) as the second thrall, with a bunch of heavily buffed skeletal monstrosities providing flanking bonuses as minions. As the final member of this team, i suggest a log rogue.

we wind up as a six man crew, plus the fleshraker and the skeletons.

Psyren
2010-12-20, 04:20 AM
I forgot that you get a second thrall :smallredface: for mine, throw in a Psywar then as backup tank, either with another Mantle or Soulbound Weapon (either of which will meld into the Fusion gestalt as well.)

Rasman
2010-12-20, 04:22 AM
What type of campaign is it? A war campaign will necessitate different needs over a heist/crime campaign.

good point

I wouldn't call it a "war" campaign, per say...I mean, being combat buff is still VERY important, but it's really a little from Column A and a little from Column B

The backstory is that all our characters belonged to this guild that was fingered for attacks and general destruction in the great city of Absalom and now we're being hunted/trying to get out of the city until we can prove otherwise. Someone, or something, is reeking havoc in our name basically and we're also trying to find an elemental pilot to pilot a particular ship. The reason for that hasn't been made clear to me since I came in a session late.

The 3 big things that are important to have in this campaign would be knowledge, perception and battle prowess.

So either a bard or wizard to cover knowledge skills, maxed Perception even if it's a cross class skill and the ability to dish out the pain.

HunterOfJello
2010-12-20, 04:26 AM
If I had to play 3 characters at once, I would pick builds that mesh well together and also work simply.

A Warblade would be the best for a tank. Their maneuver mechanics are the simplest of the ToB classes, they work great as tanks and are easy to use on the fly. I think that a crusader could work far better, but takes more time to refocus on and think about while playing.

A Focused Conjuration Specialist Wizard would be my best bet for a battlefield controller. Being a focused specialist would give him the most casts per day and simplify the spell list somewhat. The wizard would be my main focus in any scenario.

Finally, I would have to fill up the Healer and Skillmonkey roles. For that I would use a Factotum/Chameleon or Factotum X/Cleric 1. I would have to compare the builds specifically, but would probably end up choosing the second option. A one level cleric dip would give access to all the necessary cleric wands, undead turning, heavy armor, and 2 domains.

~

I don't think this would be the most effective party possible and the group would definitely not be optimized enough to handle the toughest situations. However, if I played the 3 characters at the same time, I would be able to efficiently control all three at once.

Zonugal
2010-12-20, 04:42 AM
good point

I wouldn't call it a "war" campaign, per say...I mean, being combat buff is still VERY important, but it's really a little from Column A and a little from Column B

The backstory is that all our characters belonged to this guild that was fingered for attacks and general destruction in the great city of Absalom and now we're being hunted/trying to get out of the city until we can prove otherwise. Someone, or something, is reeking havoc in our name basically and we're also trying to find an elemental pilot to pilot a particular ship. The reason for that hasn't been made clear to me since I came in a session late.

The 3 big things that are important to have in this campaign would be knowledge, perception and battle prowess.

So either a bard or wizard to cover knowledge skills, maxed Perception even if it's a cross class skill and the ability to dish out the pain.

Hmm... Sounds oddly familiar...

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.tvsquad.com/media/2010/06/the-a-team-635fp061010.jpg

So with that said maybe this team could work out well?

An Unseen Seer (16th level)
A Crusader (12th level)
A Bard (14th level)
A Constructor (the cohort)

Rasman
2010-12-20, 04:43 AM
If I had to play 3 characters at once, I would pick builds that mesh well together and also work simply.

A Warblade would be the best for a tank. Their maneuver mechanics are the simplest of the ToB classes, they work great as tanks and are easy to use on the fly. I think that a crusader could work far better, but takes more time to refocus on and think about while playing.

A Focused Conjuration Specialist Wizard would be my best bet for a battlefield controller. Being a focused specialist would give him the most casts per day and simplify the spell list somewhat. The wizard would be my main focus in any scenario.

Finally, I would have to fill up the Healer and Skillmonkey roles. For that I would use a Factotum/Chameleon or Factotum X/Cleric 1. I would have to compare the builds specifically, but would probably end up choosing the second option. A one level cleric dip would give access to all the necessary cleric wands, undead turning, heavy armor, and 2 domains.

~

I don't think this would be the most effective party possible and the group would definitely not be optimized enough to handle the toughest situations. However, if I played the 3 characters at the same time, I would be able to efficiently control all three at once.

I've thought heavily on Warblade since I love ToB so much but an Unarmed Warblade doesn't really fit since that's more of a Swordsage type deal and I'm rather fond of the Pugilist Fighter variant since it will be VERY light on bookkeeping. Considering everything I know about our group, we really don't have a healer, we do have a Paladin, but other than that, i don't know of anyone else. We do have PLENTY of skill monkey's, just no knowledge monkey's.

I'm curious as to why you say conjuration focused Specialist Wizard though.


Hmm... Sounds oddly familiar...

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.tvsquad.com/media/2010/06/the-a-team-635fp061010.jpg

So with that said maybe this team could work out well?

An Unseen Seer (16th level)
A Crusader (12th level)
A Bard (14th level)
A Constructor (the cohort)

lol...I sadly don't like the A Team enough to do that...I also don't know the voices well enough...

I would play an Unseen Seer, but I don't want to make the DM's head pop by knowing everything.

An Artificer would be interesting though, that way I DON'T have to RP all three/four at the same time and when something happens and we need a spell to get though/past it, he can just make something that gives us the spell we need. Heck, give me enough time with him and he could break an army with Automated Fireball Turrets.

molten_dragon
2010-12-20, 04:54 AM
He said 3 man crew. Wanna check you math there?

No, I don't.


It can technically be 4 since ONE of our characters can take Leadership

gkathellar
2010-12-20, 06:35 AM
Its from a dragon magazine. At first level (if you don't have any bard levels) it grants the Bardic Music abilities of a 5th level Bard. It then gives you additional types of music that grant bonus feats and non-adjusted metamagic.

It also advances Spellcasting, so you could get 3rd level spells if you slip in a level of something like Cleric, or Sorcerer.

It can also get you Sublime Chord entry for a non-bard without losing spellcasting. That's probably its real highlight Combined with wizard and Ultimate Magus, the Sublime Chord's specific wording for caster level can put yours somewhere in the mid-30s with a relatively simple build an almost no actual investment.


I don't think my DM could Bear to deal with that, I'm also playing a Druid in another campaign ...

I see what you did there.

AyeGill
2010-12-20, 08:50 AM
i'm just gonna suggest two more things:
You will either take leadership or thrallherd. That is not a suggesstion, it is not a request, it is a fact. These two both grant followers(or believers, but whatever). Aside from the handful of guys you'll keep around to carry your stuff/use as bait/use when an evil altar demands a sacrifice, i suggest the rest of them are sorcerers, who sit around the biggest city in the setting, selling their spells for gold. Breaking the WBL is fun.

Also, i suggest some kind artificer to craft all your gear. Maybe replace the necromancer in my suggested characters.

Escheton
2010-12-20, 09:07 AM
Elf: Factotum3/warblade2/wizard1/elf paragon3/Jade phoenix mage.
Depending on stats only slightly, this guy can do everything.

Dwarf: Monk2/Cleric3/Sacred fist
Runs over, kicks/heals ass

Warforged: Artificer x
Makes the stuff that keeps the group alive/make the people fall down

Gnome: Killer
Boo!

AyeGill
2010-12-20, 09:22 AM
Elf: Factotum3/warblade2/wizard1/elf paragon3/Jade phoenix mage.
Depending on stats only slightly, this guy can do everything.

Dwarf: Monk2/Cleric3/Sacred fist
Runs over, kicks/heals ass

Warforged: Artificer x
Makes the stuff that keeps the group alive/make the people fall down

Gnome: Killer
Boo!

I see what you did there. And i approve.

Rasman
2010-12-21, 06:58 AM
Elf: Factotum3/warblade2/wizard1/elf paragon3/Jade phoenix mage.
Depending on stats only slightly, this guy can do everything.

Dwarf: Monk2/Cleric3/Sacred fist
Runs over, kicks/heals ass

Warforged: Artificer x
Makes the stuff that keeps the group alive/make the people fall down

Gnome: Killer
Boo!


I see what you did there. And i approve.

I don't get it, but I don't dislike it either.

I actually really like the idea of Warforged Artificer. Walking Factories are awesome and I had been thinking about one anyway, just so I don't develop multiple personalities.

what...what is it that you did thar?

Togo
2010-12-21, 07:54 AM
A 0th level mithril dwarf (frostburn) fills the lowest level slot quite nicely, giving you a crafter and a meat sheild. He'll need buffing though. Then you need someone with skills. A master of many forms would be excellent for 14th, but you've said no druids, and it involves too much bookeeping when you have two other characters to play.

So I'd go for a skill monkey (bard to make the most of leadership) of some kind with the 14th slot, and a primary spell caster for the 16th. Maybe a sorceror with some access to domains that give him healing spells?

I think the biggest problem you'll have with three characters is running them at the same time. Keep the bookeeping low, if you can.

Gnaeus
2010-12-21, 07:58 AM
Master of Many Forms would get hit pretty hard by the wildshape nerfs in PF.

Rasman
2010-12-21, 08:17 AM
Master of Many Forms would get hit pretty hard by the wildshape nerfs in PF.

yeah, even a Planar Shepherd isn't NEARLY as powerful as it should be, it's nasty...but not quite as awesome as the 3.5 counterpart