PDA

View Full Version : AC stacking question



SylvanPrincess
2010-12-20, 12:50 AM
if i combine ascetic stalker (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ascetic_Stalker) with ascetic mage (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Ascetic_Mage) (one stacks monk and ninja levels to determine the ac bonus from wis, the other stacks monk and sorc levels to determine ac bonus, but switches the bonus to be from cha instead). with both these feats, will i get my cha and my wis bonus to ac?

Urpriest
2010-12-20, 01:12 AM
The argument that is often made is that the rule that the same-named bonus cannot be applied twice means that the class feature AC Bonus (as written in the Monk and Ninja entries) does not stack no matter which ability score it applies (this also includes, for example, the Fist of the Forest's Con to AC). I'm not sure that this is a proper application of the rule, since the monk's and fist of the forest's AC bonus are different abilities (one is the Monk's AC Bonus, one is the Fist of the Forest's AC bonus), but this is a fuzzy argument, and the clearest choice does seem to be that they don't stack.

In any case, as I recall the Ninja explicitly states that it's bonus doesn't stack with the Monk's. This shouldn't change if the Monk's bonus is keyed to a different ability.

Why do I think this will be Ninja'd by Curmudgeon?

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-20, 01:15 AM
The argument that is often made is that the rule that the same-named bonus cannot be applied twice means that the class feature AC Bonus (as written in the Monk and Ninja entries) does not stack no matter which ability score it applies (this also includes, for example, the Fist of the Forest's Con to AC). I'm not sure that this is a proper application of the rule, since the monk's and fist of the forest's AC bonus are different abilities (one is the Monk's AC Bonus, one is the Fist of the Forest's AC bonus), but this is a fuzzy argument, and the clearest choice does seem to be that they don't stack.

In any case, as I recall the Ninja explicitly states that it's bonus doesn't stack with the Monk's. This shouldn't change if the Monk's bonus is keyed to a different ability.

Why do I think this will be Ninja'd by Curmudgeon?

ah ok, good points. what do ou mean about that last comment?

Saint GoH
2010-12-20, 01:21 AM
It was a preemptive strike vs Curmudgeon.... nothing to worry bout. :smallwink:

sonofzeal
2010-12-20, 01:23 AM
Way I'd rule it....


Two different abilities with the same name that do the same thing don't stack. And you can't "double dip" a class feature. But if you manage to exchange the first one for something else, and then get it again from a different source, that's legit.

So yes, if you trade your Monk wis-to-AC to an Ascetic Mage cha-to-AC, and then take a Ninja level, you'd have wis-to-AC and cha-to-AC. But I wouldn't allow Ascetic Stalker at that point, as it's stacking abilities that no longer line up.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-20, 01:33 AM
Why do I think this will be Ninja'd by Curmudgeon?
Divination magic? :smallcool:

It is the source name that matters, not the ability it's based on. You just have to know where to find the rule which spells that out, which is here:

Different named bonus types all stack, but usually a named bonus does not stack with another bonus of the same name, except for dodge bonuses and some circumstance bonuses.
It's the term AC Bonus (the named bonus type) that indicates the source of the modifier opposing an enemy's attack roll. The mechanics of how AC Bonus works (whether based on WIS, CHA, or the phase of the moon) aren't relevant.
Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).

sonofzeal
2010-12-20, 01:49 AM
It is the source name that matters, not the ability it's based on.
Eh, I never really liked that argument. There's a few times when you have significantly different abilities with the same name, and I don't think it's reasonable to apply in those case. RAW, maybe, but I've never been quite that fanatical about it. In any actual game I run, I'd allow two different abilities with the same name to apply, as long as they're significantly different from each other and the result is non-exploitive. I think this example falls squarely in the "safe" category, requiring a significant investment and significant MAD to even begin to become worthwhile.

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-20, 01:53 AM
nother quick question

i should probablyknow this but its been awhile.

does sudden strike or sneak attack apply to each flurry strike? or just one time

Siosilvar
2010-12-20, 01:57 AM
nother quick question

i should probablyknow this but its been awhile.

does sudden strike or sneak attack apply to each flurry strike? or just one time

Each and every attack that meets the requirements (in 3.X, anyway).

Godskook
2010-12-20, 02:04 AM
Eh, I never really liked that argument. There's a few times when you have significantly different abilities with the same name, and I don't think it's reasonable to apply in those case.

What case are you talking about, cause as far as I understand what you and he are saying, what Curmudgeon is saying wouldn't apply in that kind of situation.

Also, @OP, according to your example, and assuming everything stacks, you'd get Cha*2 to AC, not Wis+Cha. The way Ascetic Mage is worded, the replacement effect works on non-monk AC-bonuses that add wisdom to AC, not just the monk one.

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-20, 02:24 AM
im asking these questions because im fiddling with doing ninja 2/monk 4/sorc 4/enlightened fist 10

cons:
a bit MAD. wis for ki pool, doesnt have to be super high. cha for spells and ac bonus. dex for ac. str for damage. and dont forget hit points. still would be fun if you had good numbers
13 bab
6th level spells

pros:
6th level spells
cha to ac + 3 (i think, fist 10 +monk +sorc = ac bonus as 18th monk?)
1d6 suddenstrike
2d8 unarmed strike damage
15 stunning strike uses a day
sack spells for damage
use stunning attempts to deal extra elemental damage
store ray spells in unarmed strike
speed +40
flurry +1/+1
slowfall 20
evasion
ki pool of 3+ wis +6

sonofzeal
2010-12-20, 02:36 AM
What case are you talking about, cause as far as I understand what you and he are saying, what Curmudgeon is saying wouldn't apply in that kind of situation.
Ascetic Mage changes the function of Monk's AC Bonus, but it doesn't change the name. Technically. So, by the rules, you couldn't stack it with another bonus with the same name, ie the Ninja's AC Bonus.

But you're right that it'd change both to Cha, in which case you've got the same ability with the same name and it definitely doesn't stack.

Godskook
2010-12-20, 02:43 AM
Ascetic Mage changes the function of Monk's AC Bonus, but it doesn't change the name. Technically. So, by the rules, you couldn't stack it with another bonus with the same name, ie the Ninja's AC Bonus.

While slightly different, they're still almost the same, function-wise. As in "function = Add mental stat to AC".

Any examples that are more "varied", like where one adds to AC and the other to Saves, or something like that?

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-20, 08:48 AM
I would think that you'd just get the AC Bonus of a Monk whose level equals your combined Monk + Ninja + Sorcerer levels, and that it would be based on your Charisma rather than your Wisdom modifier. I wouldn't let you get the ability twice, or get Charisma + Wisdom.

EDIT: Wait, Ascetic Stalker doesn't actually combine Monk and Ninja for the AC Bonus feature? Nevermind, then.

Anyway, the description of the Ninja's AC Bonus specifically states that it doesn't stack with that of a Monk, so the whole thing seems pretty clear cut to me.

sonofzeal
2010-12-20, 12:21 PM
While slightly different, they're still almost the same, function-wise. As in "function = Add mental stat to AC".
I disagree. Basing it off an entirely different stat is a significant change.

Look at it this way - if a Monk1/Ninja1/whateverX got 2*wis to AC, that'd be huge. They could dump a lot of points into Wis, and the result would be pretty abusive. I think most of us would agree that we'd be resistant to allow that in our games even if there wasn't an explicit caveat in the Ninja ability. And that's why that caveat's there, to prevent double-dipping on Wisdom.

Change one of them to Cha or Int though (Ascetic Mage changes both; let's use Kung Fu Genious for the moment) and it becomes much less abusive. There's no more double-dipping, and a character that gets any more than token benefit will need some serious MAD. And, in effect, the added MAD works as a significant balancing agent. I'd have no problem allowing different abilities with the same name to add different stats to AC. It's when you start getting two-for-the-price-of-one that things get sketchy.

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-20, 12:51 PM
Are you trying to argue that they do stack, or that they should stack? Because I think the rules here are pretty clear that they don't.

sonofzeal
2010-12-20, 01:22 PM
Are you trying to argue that they do stack, or that they should stack? Because I think the rules here are pretty clear that they don't.
Should.


But even looking at the rules for a moment, that Curmudgeon kindly provided...


Different named bonus types all stack, but usually a named bonus does not stack with another bonus of the same name, except for dodge bonuses and some circumstance bonuses.
Neither bonus is given a type, so this doesn't apply. They aren't "insight bonuses", "competence bonuses", or anything else.

"...a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC..." <- note the critical lack of identifier between "+1" and "bonus".

This rule tells us nothing about this situation since it's purely about named bonuses. These are all unnamed bonuses.


In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).
This says nothing about abilities with the same name. It says "same source", but that doesn't help us here, since Int-to-AC (Kung Fu Genious applied to Monk) and Wis-to-AC (Ninja) are pretty clearly different sources.

Actually, it does help us - unnamed bonuses, by default, stack with each other. That's a useful piece of information, and helps strengthen the case that, y'know, this might actually work.



I still wouldn't allow Ascetic Mage though. It changes both of them to Cha-to-AC, and in my mind that becomes too close to "the same source".

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-20, 01:40 PM
Should.
But even looking at the rules for a moment, that Curmudgeon kindly provided...

thank you curmudeon *high five*



Neither bonus is given a type, so this doesn't apply. They aren't "insight bonuses", "competence bonuses", or anything else.

"...a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC..." <- note the critical lack of identifier between "+1" and "bonus".

This rule tells us nothing about this situation since it's purely about named bonuses. These are all unnamed bonuses.

i agree, the only thing i can say against this is that is says that it doesnt stack with the ninjas ability- but its no longer stacking. stacking to me implies that it is from the same source (one of the same thing stacked upon the other). ascetic mage changes the source for the monk to cha.



This says nothing about abilities with the same name. It says "same source", but that doesn't help us here, since Int-to-AC (Kung Fu Genious applied to Monk) and Wis-to-AC (Ninja) are pretty clearly different sources.

strengthens your point :)



Actually, it does help us - unnamed bonuses, by default, stack with each other. That's a useful piece of information, and helps strengthen the case that, y'know, this might actually work.

yep!



I still wouldn't allow Ascetic Mage though. It changes both of them to Cha-to-AC, and in my mind that becomes too close to "the same source".

but....how does it change both of them? ascetic mage changes the monks bonus from wis to cha, but says nothing about the ninjas bonus from wis. that right there makes me think it should work, because the monk got changed to a new source (cha), and the ninja retains it from the original source (wis).

sonofzeal
2010-12-20, 01:48 PM
but....how does it change both of them? ascetic mage changes the monks bonus from wis to cha, but says nothing about the ninjas bonus from wis. that right there makes me think it should work, because the monk got changed to a new source (cha), and the ninja retains it from the original source (wis).
Ascetic Mage doesn't actually specify Monk, not in that way. I'm not going to post the wording here, but the key phrase is "such as". That's inclusive, not exclusive. Every source of Wis-to-AC is affected by Ascetic Mage.

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-20, 02:06 PM
Ascetic Mage doesn't actually specify Monk, not in that way. I'm not going to post the wording here, but the key phrase is "such as". That's inclusive, not exclusive. Every source of Wis-to-AC is affected by Ascetic Mage.

oh i see, it says "if you would normally be able to use wis, use cha instead." which is why canny defense from iajutsu master is unaffected, but wis to ac from swordsage would be?

(see i can learn :smallbiggrin: )

pilvento
2010-12-20, 02:48 PM
i recomendo u to keep the ninja/monk idea and then instead of going arcane casting and dip another stat. go for divine casting and play the Sacred Fist PrC form complete divine and as far as i know is much better than enlightned fist.

if u still prefere arcane casting i would leave ninja behind to save caster lvl and play a monk/sorcerer/enligtned fist/swiftblade.

if u really want to be sneaky then aim for an int caster go rouge/wizard/daggerspell mage. and if u want int to ac u can get some invisible blade lvls, u can go swashbuckler/rouge and get darning outlaw so u can add int to damage too and have good sneak attak. and allways get CRAVEN feat

Curmudgeon
2010-12-20, 02:59 PM
Neither bonus is given a type, so this doesn't apply. They aren't "insight bonuses", "competence bonuses", or anything else. All correct so far. These are untyped bonuses.

"...a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC..." <- note the critical lack of identifier between "+1" and "bonus".

This rule tells us nothing about this situation since it's purely about named bonuses. These are all unnamed bonuses.
No, that's not right. The name is right there in bold before the part you quoted: AC Bonus (Ex). You're quoting from the section describing how the class feature named AC Bonus works, so I find it perplexing that you think this doesn't have a name.

The bonuses are untyped. They are not unnamed. Those names are given in bold type in the Monk and Ninja class features discussions, so identifying the bonus source is easy in each case.

Person_Man
2010-12-20, 03:14 PM
X to Y thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732).

The rules have already been thoroughly debated.

My suggestion is that regardless of what your DM rules, it's a lousy idea. Synergy feats are a tax, not a benefit. You can get Wisdom to AC with a simple Monk's Belt (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Monk's_Belt). And if you're willing to play a spellcaster, there are literally dozens of ways to boost your AC above and beyond whatever you might derive from your Charisma bonus.

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-20, 03:18 PM
so the long of it is, the build i suggested no longer is MAD because wis is no longer needed. i mean, its not a dump stat,but with cha being the most important with str and dex (con a bit too) it becomes doable. wis only become the way to determine your ki pool, and the ki pool while useful is still secondary to most of the build, and you can still have a small to decent pool anyway

sonofzeal
2010-12-20, 04:28 PM
All correct so far. These are untyped bonuses.

No, that's not right. The name is right there in bold before the part you quoted: AC Bonus (Ex). You're quoting from the section describing how the class feature named AC Bonus works, so I find it perplexing that you think this doesn't have a name.

The bonuses are untyped. They are not unnamed. Those names are given in bold type in the Monk and Ninja class features discussions, so identifying the bonus source is easy in each case.
I would argue that "named bonus types" refers to the name of the bonus type, not the name of the ability that grants the bonus that has a type. That seems to be the more logical interpretation, in my opinion.

Godskook
2010-12-20, 05:23 PM
I disagree. Basing it off an entirely different stat is a significant change.

*Reasoning*

1.Your logic there is about the difference in balance, not a difference in function.

2.While more balanced, it isn't 'great', since its "best" AC, and it is easier to boost 2 ability scores mildly than it is to boost 1 by twice as much, in most areas.

sonofzeal
2010-12-20, 07:19 PM
1.Your logic there is about the difference in balance, not a difference in function.

2.While more balanced, it isn't 'great', since its "best" AC, and it is easier to boost 2 ability scores mildly than it is to boost 1 by twice as much, in most areas.
It's still "different". Two abilities with the same name and different function are less "the same" than two abilities with the same name and the same function.

The issue is where exactly to draw the line when talking about "the same source". This is never clearly defined, and there are demonstrably shades of grey. As such, it falls to the DM to define which shades of grey are too far and which aren't, and balance arguments become more important.

And it's easier to boost via items, but still requires a decent starting score. Few characters are going to have two high mental scores, and those that do are likely casters who are really going to suffer from dipping both Monk and Ninja.

Now, none of this resolves the explicit Ninja prohibition against interaction with Monk AC Bonus. As a DM I'd rule that it doesn't refer to the new, altered ability after Ascetic Mage... but that's more of a houserule.

Moginheden
2010-12-20, 07:50 PM
And it's easier to boost via items, but still requires a decent starting score. Few characters are going to have two high mental scores, and those that do are likely casters who are really going to suffer from dipping both Monk and Ninja.

If you are doing a point-buy system for stats, (almost all the games I'm in do this.) Allowing these to stack is giving you a LOT more bang for your buck if you get 2 medium scores than one high score. Personally I'd rule you get the higher of the 2 not both. A monk's AC is already insane, I know the one in my party I can only hit on a natural 20 yet everyone else in the party I'm hitting on a 12.

tyckspoon
2010-12-20, 08:02 PM
If you are doing a point-buy system for stats, (almost all the games I'm in do this.) Allowing these to stack is giving you a LOT more bang for your buck if you get 2 medium scores than one high score. Personally I'd rule you get the higher of the 2 not both. A monk's AC is already insane, I know the one in my party I can only hit on a natural 20 yet everyone else in the party I'm hitting on a 12.

You might want to check his math. Monks AC bonus usually still lags behind the very cheap AC granted simply by wearing armor.

sonofzeal
2010-12-20, 09:04 PM
Monks can have good AC at low levels with Vow of Poverty, or if they're secretly Tashalatora PsiWars manifesting a fully-augmented Inertial Armor. There's a couple other ways. But you're right, by default Monk AC never catches up to heavy armor users.



As for pointbuy - what are we talking here, a +2? That's hardly gamebreaking.

Let's take a Wizard/Monk with Kung Fu Genius (MwKFG for short). Our Wizard/MwKFG gets a nice boost to AC, a boost to saves, and a couple other things. It's not optimal since he loses a caster level, but it's not a bad idea. And we'd all agree it's legal.

For our Wizard/MwKFG to take advantage of this "exploit", he'd have to sink a second caster level on Ninja, and sink probably 6 pointbuy points into a stat he really has no other use for, all to get... +2 AC. Maybe +3 or +4, if he gets a Periapt of Wisdom, but he'd almost certainly get more bang for his buck from an Amulet of Natural Armor, or better yet an Amulet of Health for extra Con.

With those 6 pointbuy points, he could have raised Int from 16 to 18. He'd only have gotten +1 AC instead of +2, but he'd save himself from having to dip Ninja at all, and the extra Int will go a long, long way on a Wizard, far more than a Wis of 14.

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-20, 10:37 PM
i agree, the only thing i can say against this is that is says that it doesnt stack with the ninjas ability- but its no longer stacking. stacking to me implies that it is from the same source (one of the same thing stacked upon the other). ascetic mage changes the source for the monk to cha.

That is not what stacking means. Stacking is very relevant because we are discussing two things which give a bonus to the same ability. If it one gave a bonus to AC and the other gave a bonus to Saves, then stacking wouldn't be an issue.

Urpriest
2010-12-20, 11:11 PM
That is not what stacking means. Stacking is very relevant because we are discussing two things which give a bonus to the same ability. If it one gave a bonus to AC and the other gave a bonus to Saves, then stacking wouldn't be an issue.

A better example would be two abilities with the same name that give different bonus types to the same score. I can't think of a good example of this though.

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-21, 09:11 AM
That doesn't have anything to do with what the person said that I was responding to.

true_shinken
2010-12-21, 09:35 AM
I would argue that "named bonus types" refers to the name of the bonus type, not the name of the ability that grants the bonus that has a type. That seems to be the more logical interpretation, in my opinion.
That's correct. Rules Compendium has better wording for this:

STACKING
Bonuses of different types always stack. Bonuses that have identical types donít stack, except for dodge bonuses and some circumstance bonuses. Untyped bonuses stack unless the bonuses come from the same effect.
Penalties arenít usually typed, but identical types of penalties donít stack. In this latter case, the worst penalty applies.

Urpriest
2010-12-21, 02:07 PM
That doesn't have anything to do with what the person said that I was responding to.

Ah yes, true. I was tracking the wrong part of the thread apparently.

sonofzeal
2010-12-21, 02:15 PM
That's correct. Rules Compendium has better wording for this:
Huzzah! So the name of the ability is irrelevant, just whether or not the DM considers it "the same source". And that's a judgement call.

There's still the explicit Ninja prohibition against stacking with Monk, but whatever. :smalltongue:

Curmudgeon
2010-12-21, 05:37 PM
Huzzah! So the name of the ability is irrelevant, just whether or not the DM considers it "the same source". And that's a judgement call.
No, nothing has changed. Rules Compendium merely reworded the language used in the Player's Handbook Glossary definition of "stack". The Dungeon Master's Guide rule from page 21 where "the same source" is explained ("usually a named bonus does not stack with another bonus of the same name") is still in effect.

The name is only what's relevant with untyped modifiers.

true_shinken
2010-12-21, 05:47 PM
The name is only what's relevant with untyped modifiers.
Nowhere in the rules you quoted are abilities' names mentioned, though. Only modifers' names.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-21, 06:37 PM
Nowhere in the rules you quoted are abilities' names mentioned, though. Only modifers' names.
The modifier types are short enough to enumerate; the list is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#modifierTypes). The source names (all named bonuses from feats, class abilities, spells, & c.) would be a huge list.

Siosilvar
2010-12-21, 07:22 PM
Different named bonus types all stack, but usually a named bonus does not stack with another bonus of the same name, except for dodge bonuses and some circumstance bonuses.

[list of bonus type names snipped]

Seems pretty clear-cut to me.


stack: Combine for a cumulative effect. In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack if they come from different sources and have different descriptors [Descriptors are only defined for spells.] (or no descriptors at all), but do not stack if they have the same descriptors or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus or worst penalty applies. [Remainder duplicates some of the DMG text]

Here's the quote with "same source" in it.

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-21, 10:24 PM
Untyped bonuses stack unless they come from the same effect.

AC Bonus is the effect in this case, and it is the same whether it comes from a Ninja or a Monk (and regardless of any feat-related modifications, it is still the same ability).

sonofzeal
2010-12-21, 11:03 PM
AC Bonus is the effect in this case, and it is the same whether it comes from a Ninja or a Monk (and regardless of any feat-related modifications, it is still the same ability).
If it's been modified, it's not exactly the same ability any more, is it? I mean, that's what the word "modified" usually implies.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-21, 11:16 PM
If it's been modified, it's not exactly the same ability any more, is it?
The issue is then whether that modification changes the name of the modifier source. Most such modifications don't, so they have no impact on the stacking rules.

A Monk's AC Bonus and a Swordsage's AC Bonus are normally incompatible because the Monk ability only works when wearing no armor, and the Swordsage ability only works when wearing light armor; these required conditions for the two abilities can't exist simultaneously. An adaptation of the Swordsage to use the Monk's unarmed strike and switch the AC Bonus to also require wearing no armor will change the working of the AC Bonus source, but it won't affect the name.

sonofzeal
2010-12-22, 12:00 AM
The issue is then whether that modification changes the name of the modifier source. Most such modifications don't, so they have no impact on the stacking rules.
Nothing about the name of the modifier source matters. The only thing about names is "named bonus types", which is something else entirely. Rules Compendium's rewording of that passage makes that quite clear.

The question is whether or not they're "the same source", and that's a shade of grey. Certainly, the name can be one of the ways two sources can be similar. And similarity does come in degree. Where you draw the line is up to you, but "the same" technically implies exactly the same, which is no longer the case.

Personally, drawing the bonus from different stats is different enough for me.


A Monk's AC Bonus and a Swordsage's AC Bonus are normally incompatible because the Monk ability only works when wearing no armor, and the Swordsage ability only works when wearing light armor; these required conditions for the two abilities can't exist simultaneously. An adaptation of the Swordsage to use the Monk's unarmed strike and switch the AC Bonus to also require wearing no armor will change the working of the AC Bonus source, but it won't affect the name.
Agreed, but I don't think anything there contradicts what I've said above.

Curmudgeon
2010-12-22, 12:57 AM
Nothing about the name of the modifier source matters. The only thing about names is "named bonus types", which is something else entirely.
The term "named" is used twice in the rule. Only one of those refers to the name of the type.
Different named bonus types all stack, but usually a named bonus does not stack with another bonus of the same name, except for dodge bonuses and some circumstance bonuses. The second reference is to the name of the bonus itself.
Rules Compendium's rewording of that passage makes that quite clear. Rules Compendium didn't reword or do anything else with that Dungeon Master's Guide rule about bonus types at all. It merely paraphrased the Player's Handbook treatment of "stacking".

sonofzeal
2010-12-22, 01:11 AM
The term "named" is used twice in the rule. Only one of those refers to the name of the type. The second reference is to the name of the bonus itself.
I would argue that, given the specific wording in question, both refer to the same thing.


Different named bonus types all stack, but usually a named bonus does not stack with another bonus of the same name, except for dodge bonuses and some circumstance bonuses.


If you grant that the first one is in reference to the name of the type, then I see no reason why you couldn't simply read the second one as being in reference to the same thing. Indeed, the parallel wording strongly suggests that the latter is specifically extending the former, and thus both are refering to the same thing. I can't see any supporting context cues to suggest your interpretation.

olentu
2010-12-22, 01:47 AM
So why is everyone using the rules compendium and DMG for this discussion one would use PHB and rules compendium for proper precedence. I mean the DMG only would at most have precedence for bonus types and nothing else.

dextercorvia
2010-12-22, 09:08 AM
The term "named" is used twice in the rule. Only one of those refers to the name of the type. The second reference is to the name of the bonus itself.



Different named bonus types all stack, but usually a named bonus does not stack with another bonus of the same name, except for dodge bonuses and some circumstance bonuses.

I'm not arguing about the stacking thing, but this argument is a bit of a stretch. This is an example of antithetical parallelism. Even though they didn't say type both times (likely to avoid redundancy) from the context it is clear they are the same thing. In your own quote, is not dodge bonuses and some circumstance bonuses referring back to named bonus? If your interpretation was correct, I believe the sentence would need to read: "unless they provide dodge bonuses".

The class feature AC Bonus is not a bonus, it is the source of a bonus. And as discussed earlier, I can see the reading that says that the source is the same even if the class feature is granted by two different classes.

Darrin
2010-12-22, 09:29 AM
If you can use Dragon Compendium, try using Battle Dancer instead of Monk. You get full BAB, the monk's unarmed strike (including the "treat as natural/manufactured" clause) and add your Charisma bonus to AC. Yes, the class ability is called "AC Bonus", just like a monk's, but the Ninja AC Bonus doesn't mention anything about not stacking with Battle Dancers.

You don't get Flurry of Blows, but you can get that back (or something similar) with Snap Kick (ToB), Shou Disciple (Unapproachable East), or Disciple of the Eye (Races of the Dragon, but has an alignment conflict).

If you take Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB) and don't have any monk levels, your unarmed strike damage goes up according to your *character* level. The damage is roughly the equivalent of a small-sized monk, but it's actually independent of your size: a small non-monk character gets the same SUS damage as a medium one.

true_shinken
2010-12-22, 01:16 PM
Yes, the class ability is called "AC Bonus", just like a monk's, but the Ninja AC Bonus doesn't mention anything about not stacking with Battle Dancers.
I disagree. RAI is pretty simple (and was even clarified on the FAQ) that it doesn't stack with Swordsage either. Why would it stack with Blade Dancer and not with Swordsage? RAW you can do it, but RAW-abuse is not something that will convince most DMs. YMMV, as usual.

ericgrau
2010-12-22, 01:32 PM
It looks like you should get either your cha or wis to AC and levels from all 3 classes should stack for AC. Only monk and ninja stack for unarmed strike and ki, though the DM might think it's fair to give you more there. There's no reason to introduce RAW abuse when you can avoid it, and what the RAW is here is hazy anyway. Scratch all that if this is for some kind of PvP competition.

NoldorForce
2010-12-22, 07:50 PM
I'd like to point out that the Fist of the Forest contains yet another class ability called "AC Bonus", though its bonus instead is equal to your Constitution modifier. Funny thing is that it includes an example NPC complete with statblock, and said NPC's AC carries bonuses both from Wisdom (ie, Monk's AC Bonus) and from Constitution (ie, FotF's AC Bonus). Seems like RAI is for them to stack, at least if they're different abilities as bonuses to a given statistic. (Also keep in mind that the ruling against the AC bonuses from monk/ninja/swordsage stacking was from the months leading up to 4E, when WotC was severely trying to crack down on perceived "munchkin schemes". Some of the rulings in that era were a bit specious.)

@ Curmudgeon: You're completely misinterpreting what the "name" of a bonus is. That DMG quote that you provided refers to dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses as named effects; the implication is that the name of a bonus and its type are synonymous. Additionally, the PHB states that untyped bonuses are also unnamed:
A bonus that isnít named (just a ď+2 bonusĒ rather than a ď+2 resistance bonusĒ) stacks with any bonus.

true_shinken
2010-12-23, 12:49 PM
I'd like to point out that the Fist of the Forest contains yet another class ability called "AC Bonus", though its bonus instead is equal to your Constitution modifier. Funny thing is that it includes an example NPC complete with statblock, and said NPC's AC carries bonuses both from Wisdom (ie, Monk's AC Bonus) and from Constitution (ie, FotF's AC Bonus).
NPC statblocks mean nothing, really. They are always rigged with errors, so I don't think we should use'em even to think about RAI.

NoldorForce
2010-12-24, 09:16 AM
NPC statblocks mean nothing, really. They are always rigged with errors, so I don't think we should use'em even to think about RAI.I don't see how the endemism of errors should affect what RAI is. RAW, perhaps, but generally a poor statblock is biased in favor of that author's perception of the rules (ie, RAI). Consider the Abjurant Champion, for instance.