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Halae
2010-12-20, 03:57 AM
I greatly like the idea of a warforged that doesn't have to worry about needing to wear armor, but this presents me with a problem - I like it when such characters are ultra self-sufficient, even going so far as to not relying on weapons. This presents a problem, as The warforged's character's natural slam attacks aren't that great.

This is my question for the playground: is there a way to make a warforged character that is based around the use of his slam(s) in combat? I would prefer it to be simple, and the less spellcasting the better, but some can be worked in as long as it doesn't become the focus

EDIT: now I think of it, a grappler would also work

absolmorph
2010-12-20, 04:05 AM
Amulet of Natural Attacks (to give you good enchantments for your slams), Greater Mighty Wallop (to increase the damage dice) and Greater Magic Weapon will take away most of the bad parts.

poignant123
2010-12-20, 06:35 AM
There's a feat called Extra Slam, along with Jaws of Death. Races of Eberron, IIRC.

When you focus on natural attacks, it's recommended you take Totemist. They can make a fierce grappler. Take Girallon Arms to make a Four Armed Robot that bites people.

TheDarkDM
2010-12-20, 06:43 AM
Become a Soul Eater and enjoy your killer buffs.

poignant123
2010-12-20, 07:11 AM
Because soul eating robots are the best kind of robots.

AslanCross
2010-12-20, 07:17 AM
Keep in mind that as your only natural weapon, the warforged slam gets a x1.5 strength bonus. That's a start at least.

Halae
2010-12-20, 07:39 AM
Become a Soul Eater and enjoy your killer buffs.
Because soul eating robots are the best kind of robots.

I'm sorry, but where is this from? I don't think I've ever encountered this class

AslanCross
2010-12-20, 08:05 AM
It's from Book of Vile Darkness.

Halae
2010-12-20, 08:09 AM
wait, do enhancement bonuses count as untyped? because that strength bonus is an enhancement bonus. and can't touch attacks be delivered via natural attack? *shudder* if I'm right, that's one mean class, and not even that hard to get into. thank you BoVD!

but... I was kinda hoping to stay on the lighter side of the alignment spectrum

panaikhan
2010-12-20, 08:27 AM
Jaws of Death, Extra Slam and Multiattack (to reduce the penalties)
Possibly add a couple of levels of Artificer to buff your fists (or yourself)

poignant123
2010-12-20, 08:33 AM
Okay, you can take the Spirit Totem Barbarian and pick the Bear Totem, giving you Improved Grab. It's a start for grapple builds.

Technically you can take the Bear Totem from CC and the Wold Totem from UA, thus allowing you to trip on your first attack, then start the grapple.

Tael
2010-12-20, 09:08 AM
Go full Artificer, or if you don't like magic, maybe Totemist dipping into Thayan Gladiator.

Halae
2010-12-20, 09:13 AM
Okay, you can take the Spirit Totem Barbarian and pick the Bear Totem, giving you Improved Grab. It's a start for grapple builds.

Technically you can take the Bear Totem from CC and the Wold Totem from UA, thus allowing you to trip on your first attack, then start the grapple.
I think we may have a winner. after that it's mostly just finding ways to get ridiculous bonuses to my graple check, right? does anybody have ways to get that without too much cheese?

Tael
2010-12-20, 09:17 AM
I think we may have a winner. after that it's mostly just finding ways to get ridiculous bonuses to my graple check, right? does anybody have ways to get that without too much cheese?

Totemist using Girralon Arms. As little as a two level dip will do.

Escheton
2010-12-20, 09:28 AM
The feat adds 4, so do size bonuses. Buff str a lot.
Thats usually the way to go. Besides adding arcane spells and such.

There is a prestige based around it, Reaping Mauler, 5 lvls and you get things like a sleeper lock and such. Those that hate on monks hate on this as well though.

poignant123
2010-12-20, 09:50 AM
Well, he won't qualify if he picks adamantine body, since it counts as heavy armor. I can't remember what exactly it was but Reaping Mauler was gimped somehow,...

Should you decide to go Barb/Totemist, look into the Totem Rager Class.

If not, you can go take Black Blood Cultist. It's quite an incredible class for grapplers, despite 3/4 BAB.

ALL NATURAL ATTACKS ON GRAPPLE.

Greenish
2010-12-20, 09:55 AM
Amulet of Natural Attacks (to give you good enchantments for your slams)He's a warforged, he can have his limbs enchanted directly.

Anyhow, I'd just go with tashatalora: warforged's default armour plating doesn't count for monk special abilities (and according to some sources, the feats don't either, but there different material conflicts), battlefist increases unarmed damage and allows easy enchanting (and special materials), expansion allows you to become a giant robot, and of course you'll be among the best grapplers.

Darrin
2010-12-20, 10:19 AM
I can't remember what exactly it was but Reaping Mauler was gimped somehow,...


Reaping Mauler has Clever Wrestling as a requirement. This feat has two major problems: 1) It only provides a bonus to get *out* of a grapple, when the entire point of the PrC is to get *into* a grapple, and 2) the feat has small or medium size as a requirement, so if you use enlarge/expansion to get bigger, you lose the feat *and* all of your Reaping Mauler class abilities.

There is a way around this, however. Three levels of Leviathan Hunter (Stormwrack p. 61) grants you Clever Wrestling as a bonus feat, regardless of your size.

poignant123
2010-12-20, 10:44 AM
Mmm, so that's the reason.

But seriously, Black Blood Cultist is the class for Natural Attack grapplers.

Dip Monk2/Bear Totem Barb2/Fighter1 then go Black Blood Cultist.

Link to Handbook here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870826/Black_Blood_Cultist_Handbook:_A_Grapplers_Manual)

Greenish
2010-12-20, 11:00 AM
Mmm, so that's the reason.Well, that and the fact that class just isn't very good.

poignant123
2010-12-20, 11:05 AM
The class features are rather lackluster, yes.

The other route for a natural attack grapple is to take Warshaper and get the whole slew of attacks in addition to nice abilities, though you'd probably have to dip Bear Warrior for that.

Person_Man
2010-12-20, 11:51 AM
What books are on the table? Is homebrew allowed?

Keld Denar
2010-12-20, 11:56 AM
Keep in mind that as your only natural weapon, the warforged slam gets a x1.5 strength bonus. That's a start at least.

This is not a hard and fast rule. Not all creatures that only have one natural attack get 1.5x +Str. You have to consult each creature individually. Warforged, as presented in the MM3 and ECS, do not get 1.5x damage on their slam, nor due they follow the general rule that large+ humanoid creatures with a slam attack gain a second slam. Warforged are different, and in the absense of language that includes them in those rules, evidence shows that they are excluded.

Halae
2010-12-20, 01:58 PM
What books are on the table? Is homebrew allowed?

unfortunately, the DM has banned all homebrew as a blanket way of keeping things from getting past the radar, but just about everything official (I'm even talking about some kalamar books here, the man's got a firggin library) is good to go

Person_Man
2010-12-20, 03:04 PM
unfortunately, the DM has banned all homebrew as a blanket way of keeping things from getting past the radar, but just about everything official (I'm even talking about some kalamar books here, the man's got a firggin library) is good to go

OK then. As you already know, Slam by itself isn't that great. So if you want an ultra-self sufficient character who doesn't need weapons, your best options are:

Any Full Caster: Take Eschew Materials, and you're pretty much set.
Psychic Warrior: Claws of the Beast, Claws of the Vampire, Expansion, Hustle, etc.
Totemist: Has a really easy time getting 5+ natural attacks, especially if Dragon Magazine material is allowed.
Incarnate: This class requires a lot more rules mastery then the Totemist and lacks some of his offensive punch, but ultimately has much stronger defense and utility. Has a variety of ways to create and buff it's own weapons, although it's not worth detailing the level by level explanation unless you're seriously interested in the class.
Unarmed Swordsage: Like a Monk, except it actually works.

Soulblazer87
2010-12-20, 03:57 PM
I'd just say 'go martial adept'. Really, there are unarmed disciplines in there, which you can substitute with unarmed attacks. I mean, seriously, what's the difference? Wouldn't your slam attacks also increase with unarmed damage? It's kind of stupid to have, say, claws and somehow deal more damage without them rather than with them. Then again that's DnD for you; makes the unreasonable reasonable and the reasonable require three hundred hours of dumpster diving to emulate.

Coidzor
2010-12-20, 04:14 PM
Totemist, I believe, would deliver all you would ever want for in terms of natural attacks.

Keld Denar
2010-12-20, 04:16 PM
Slams are natural attacks. They are NOT the same as Unarmed Strikes (which are funky natural attacks that act as manufactured weapons WRT iterative attacks). The biggest thing is that you can never gain iterative attacks with your slam. Ever. Your UAS damage has nothing to do with your slam damage, just like it has nothing to do with your claw damage, your bite damage, your wing buffet damage, or your tail slap damage (if you had them). Its a seperate "weapon" despite being another part of your body.

You can actually make both in a round though. You can make full iterative UAS attacks and then make your slam as a secondary natural weapon. Go read up the combat section about natural and manufactured weapons...it clears up most of your confusion on its own.

A martial adept would actually be great here. You can deliver strikes with your slam, and if you use certain strikes, your base damage doesn't even really matter much. I did a warforged crusader a while back named Slam, who ironically used his slam attack to deliver his Devoted Spirit maneuvers. Screw in a Battlefist and you're up to longsword damage, with Improved Natural Attack bumping that up to greatsword damage.

Urpriest
2010-12-20, 04:31 PM
Is there any way for a warforged to become another creature type and still keep its slam attacks? If so, Rapidstrike might be an option.

Keld Denar
2010-12-20, 05:02 PM
You'd need to take Second Slam to get a "pair", and that would still only give you 1 extra attack. You'd probably be better off taking Aberrant Blood + Deepspawn to get robo-tentacles than that, especially with the +10 BAB requirement on Rapidstrike...oh, and the type changing issue.

NameNotNeeded
2010-12-20, 05:22 PM
A dip of Shaper for minor creation would be good too. Black lotus on your slams would be pretty killer.

NEO|Phyte
2010-12-20, 05:25 PM
Throwing in further suggestion for Fistsage with battlefist. Assuming your DM isn't RAW or nothing, he'll let the battlefist's monk properties (virtual size increase to unarmed damage dice, can use the fist's enchantments on US) apply to unarmed swordsage unarmed strike as well as monk.

AslanCross
2010-12-20, 05:41 PM
This is not a hard and fast rule. Not all creatures that only have one natural attack get 1.5x +Str. You have to consult each creature individually. Warforged, as presented in the MM3 and ECS, do not get 1.5x damage on their slam, nor due they follow the general rule that large+ humanoid creatures with a slam attack gain a second slam. Warforged are different, and in the absense of language that includes them in those rules, evidence shows that they are excluded.

On the other hand, Races of Eberron says they do get a x1.5 strength bonus on their slam. The entry on warforged monks says that their unarmed strike only gets x1 strength, unlike their natural attack, which gets x1.5.

The issue here is probably WOTC not knowing their own rules, again, but x1.5 strength is definitely RAW. (EDIT: RoE was published in 2005, while MM3 was published in 2004. RoE should be the "correct" source.)

In any case, I'd definitely suggest Unarmed Swordsage, although you do have to deal with that Wis penalty. Warblade also works.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-20, 05:42 PM
He's a warforged, he can have his limbs enchanted directly.

Anyhow, I'd just go with tashatalora: warforged's default armour plating doesn't count for monk special abilities (and according to some sources, the feats don't either, but there different material conflicts), battlefist increases unarmed damage and allows easy enchanting (and special materials), expansion allows you to become a giant robot, and of course you'll be among the best grapplers.

This is precisely what I was going to recommend. And you get to be a Psychic Robot. You could take Psiforged Body as well, though you don't really need to. I'd recommend Psion or Erudite, though you can make Ardent work, despite the Wis penalty. If you go Ardent, then go Metamind as well, as that will get you 9th level powers and Infinite Power Points per day, if you really want them. You can also go PsyWar, but I personally prefer 9th level powers.

Tashalatoras make great grapplers, for the reasons Greenish gives: Unarmed Strike damage progression, flurry of blows, easy access to size increases, and the excellent buffing that psychics can get. They also can be very versatile out of combat and very self sufficient (especially with a recharge set up). If this is the route you take, there are some excellent guides for Psychic Warriors (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8904.0), Ardents (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5871.0), and Psions (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238.0), my own little work concerning Psionic Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9867738#post9867738), and Person Man's excellent Melee Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026) as well, which you might like to peruse.

Going this route means it's not really your Slams anymore, of course, but it's close. And, if I remember correctly, you can enchant your unarmed strikes directly (unlike most, if not all, other monks).

Greenish
2010-12-20, 07:00 PM
You can also go PsyWar, but I personally prefer 9th level powers.That depends on how much power you need to wield. For many games, psywarr is good enough, and the extra feats are nifty.


Going this route means it's not really your Slams anymore, of course, but it's close. And, if I remember correctly, you can enchant your unarmed strikes directly (unlike most, if not all, other monks).Yeah, and you can also make your battlefist from a material (such as silver or cold iron) that pierces DR. It also automatically deals bludgeoning and piercing damage, by my reading.

And finally even though your armour plating doesn't count as armour for interrupting your monk abilities, it does count for receiving enchants.

Warforged are one of the best races for monks, despite the wis penalty.

wolfinato
2010-12-20, 07:54 PM
a warforged with the unarmored body feat at first level with battlefist and monk levels. and the battlefist is considered a natural weapon due to it being used like aglove on the warforged hands. then maybe add fighter levels for the w.f and w.s feats for unarmored attacks.

AslanCross
2010-12-20, 07:57 PM
a warforged with the unarmored body feat at first level with battlefist and monk levels. and the battlefist is considered a natural weapon due to it being used like aglove on the warforged hands. then maybe add fighter levels for the w.f and w.s feats for unarmored attacks.

Why does he need Unarmored Body? By default, Composite Plating does not count as wearing armor (as per Races of Eberron). He doesn't need to get rid of it. It's only when taking Mithral, Ironwood or Adamantine Body that the Warforged loses the monk's AC bonus.

He would be better off taking Mithral Body and taking Swordsage, so that his AC bonus works with Light armor.

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-20, 08:56 PM
Whether it works is often debated amongst peoples, but if you want to be ultra self sufficient, there's always the vow of poverty for the sake of needing nothing. The AC doesn't stack with armor but it's still cool at least.

Psychic Warrior's natural weapons, as has been stated, is a pretty interesting idea for this sort of thing. Monk is obvious, even if it's not all that good. Psiblade is the same as monk in that it's sort of a way to do it, but sort of a terrible way to do it.

Cyphrus
2010-12-21, 10:12 PM
Two very good options, depending if it is allowed; are both from dragon magazine.

In dragon #349 page 92, there's a fantastic ACF for barbarians who want to fight unarmed. In a nutshell, you trade medium armor, martial weapons and shield usage from the barbarian levels, for Improved unarmed strike, and as worded, the entire two weapon fighting line while fighting unarmed. Oh, and a reduced penalty to using improvised weapons.

Also, in dragon 355, page 76, there's a remotely nice feat called beast strike, it allows you to stack your slam damage with unarmed strikes.

These work wonderfully for a short dip in barbarian, a level or two does wonders, if you want a flurry of doom, just add to spice the lion totem barbarian from Complete Champion, Whirling Frenzy from Unearthed Arcana, and the Wolf totem from UA as well.

It works fantastically.

Endarire
2010-12-21, 10:21 PM
If the rules allow me to make astral construct power armor (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10279.0), then this is a spiffy and creative option, though not necessarily what you wanted.

Note that using astral constructs as 'power armor' lets you use their slams, but not yours.