PDA

View Full Version : Angels as antagonists?



Runestar
2010-12-20, 07:38 AM
On my way home earlier, I dropped by at Borders and flipped through a dnd novel titled "Empyrean Odyssey". Interesting look at the workings of a celestial bureaucracy, and the ragtag band of fiends and one angel who ends up on the wrong side of the law. While on the bus, that got me thinking.

Has anyone here have any experience with running a campaign where the primary antagonists are good-aligned outsiders? It shouldn't be all that difficult to come up with up with a theocracy staffed with angels and archons, but the real headache would be coming up with a plausible reason as to why the PCs would want to lead a revolt against heaven.

This isn't about the party questing to stop some obviously evil plot like a solar trying to bring about mass genocide for whatever reason. The key npcs are all LG and would be roleplayed as such. The PCs wouldn't be evil either.

What shortcomings might a country (or world) run by LG outsiders have? One idea which comes to mind is that their method of rule may resemble a benign dictatorship or facist state, which may rub some people the wrong way, and start sowing the seeds of discontent.

One hand, I would like to see the good npcs in MM/BOED get more use outside of SM/planar ally. The other, to add a twist to conventional black-and-white games. I don't plan on running such a game (at least not anytime soon), but I am genuinely curious to see how it might be executed, as well as if it can be sustained from lv1-20+.

Let the brainstorming begin (I hope?). :smallbiggrin:

Serpentine
2010-12-20, 07:42 AM
The first (and only) campaign I've ever actually finished as a player had a fallen angel BBEG. I can't remember whether the angel himself was still considered Good (may have never known, but I expect he at least fell to Neutral), but his minions included a large number of Lawful Good Paladins who believed they were doing the bidding of a true celestial being.
...but that could be your reason for "leading a revolt against heaven"? Somehow it's been infiltrated by a truly Evil creature that is directing the still truly Good celestials to Evil ends. Maybe you find real evidence for the reality of the Burning Hate...

Eldan
2010-12-20, 07:53 AM
You might be interested in a project that was built on Planewalker, a while ago: the Ortho Project. Now, it wasn't entirely what you are looking for, but it's a prime world ruled by the Harmonium, a very lawful and slightly good organization.

Apart from that: if you want a world ruled by archons, I think a problem here would be the difference in perspective between them and the mortals they rule over.

Archons do not eat or sleep. They have various immunities. They are immortal. All but the lanterns are wiser and more charismatic than humans, often considerably so. Most are also more intelligent. They are lawful and good to a degree few humans could ever hope to achieve.

What does that mean for living with mortals? Only the most exceptional humans can compare to archons mentally. And an archon can invest 24 hours a day seven days a week into his job, if necessary, without needing sleep or supply. They are, simply, better at everything.

And a government? Think of any official position. Would you put a mortal or an archon in it? Should your judge have a +6 bonus to wisdom and intelligence and be inherently lawful? Should your town guard never sleep and be able to nonviolently restrain any criminal human with a look? Archons can do all that.

So, a state with archons in it? It would probably look fascist or at least oligarchic. The archons can't help being better than humans. They would probably let humans into all councils and so on, just out of their own sense of fairness, but in the end, they are just better at leading them than they are themselves. The humans would soon feel, well, superfluous. Only tolerated, not needed.That could quickly breed discontent, even if they were well cared for.

And the worst thing? The archons want to help. They feel pity for the mortals. It's not their fault, after all, that they are born just a little less perfect than their ten feet tall dog-headed super-genius neighbours.

Escheton
2010-12-20, 07:54 AM
DDO has a quest where fight a bunch of misguided angels.
The backstory is quite nice, I'd look it for you but I can't load my characters for some reason.
Perhaps a googlesearch will help...

Amphetryon
2010-12-20, 07:57 AM
I had a party that was entirely composed of characters who were neutral along the good-evil axis, with the campaign setting as the onset of a holy war. Early on, they had antagonists who were from Celestia as well as from the Infernal plane, as well as the PMP representatives of both sides. As the story progressed, their actions were influenced more by the machinations of the devils than by the angels, until by around level 12, they were working toward the devils' goals, without being evil themselves. That meant, of course, that the forces of Celestia were against them.

As for shortfalls of a theoretical LG society, I can easily envision a LG society where Lawful and Good behavior is enforced without compassion, devolving into a society where "Happiness Is Mandatory." Lawful and Good behavior enforced through guilt and haranguing can potentially build up a lot of resentment, particularly among chaotically-inclined folks, while those of a more neutral disposition might wonder whether the leadership had slid toward a LE dictatorship.

Killer Angel
2010-12-20, 09:30 AM
Keep in mind that angels are the embodiment of Lawful and Good, so they easily tend to excesses, at mortals' eyes.
Put some chaotic good character in a extremely lawful good society, and suddenly the chaotic part will feel that something must be done to guarantee freedom...

Another note: a character can also be LG, and oppose firmly a LG society, if the two concepts of "lawful" differ too much.
Think to the opposite positions of Iron Man and Cap. America in Civil War.

Chilingsworth
2010-12-20, 09:45 AM
The first (and only) campaign I've ever actually finished as a player had a fallen angel BBEG. I can't remember whether the angel himself was still considered Good (may have never known, but I expect he at least fell to Neutral), but his minions included a large number of Lawful Good Paladins who believed they were doing the bidding of a true celestial being.
...but that could be your reason for "leading a revolt against heaven"? Somehow it's been infiltrated by a truly Evil creature that is directing the still truly Good celestials to Evil ends. Maybe you find real evidence for the reality of the Burning Hate...

Another option could be the PCs are the misguided paladins. That probably wouldn't be sustainable, though, seeing as the characters would eventually figure out what's going on.

Kansaschaser
2010-12-20, 09:56 AM
I ran a campaign where the PC's had to obtain some holy relics. When they summoned/gated in angels to ask for the relic that was on their plane of existance, the angels all said "no".

Since the PC's needed the relic (or they thought the needed the relic), they infiltrated the angel's home plane and stole the relic.

For the rest of the campaign, they were hunted by angels. The PC's had to keep the relic away from the angels long enough to save the world. The relic was also sought after by devils and deamons.

The relic just happen to be the physical heart of Pelor. If the heart were to be damaged or destroyed, Pelor might die.

Sipex
2010-12-20, 10:52 AM
Okay, how about this?

Angels have captured an incredibly powerful evil god and are putting him on trial before his inevitable execution. Only thing is, his execution will bring about a lot of destruction as this god is either A) Stopping something even worse or B) has set up something to happen with his demise.

The angels don't believe this (really, the guy is evil and will say anything to get free) so the PCs have to fight the angels and rescue the evil god for the good of humanity.

Serpentine
2010-12-20, 10:57 AM
C) The Evil god embodies a concept crucial to the workings of the universe (Death being the obvious one, which means a more obscure one would be better), and destroying them would severely damage Creation.

Grelna the Blue
2010-12-20, 11:17 AM
For inspiration, I strongly recommend reading some Jack Williamson (http://www.umich.edu/~engb415/literature/cyberzach/Williamson/human.html), one of the lesser-known Golden Age sci fi greats. He wrote a couple books and some short stories about a future world in which benevolent Asimov-inspired robots took their programming imperative "To Serve and Obey, And Guard Men from Harm" more seriously than their creators had originally intended. The problem was that the "Guard Men from Harm" part of the programming came first, before the "Serve and Obey" part. Vices are harmful. Potentially, so are many recreational activities. So when the robots take over to protect humanity from itself, a lot of fun goes out of the world. But they have the very best of intentions...

The Big Dice
2010-12-20, 11:58 AM
Have you watched the last couple of seasons of Supernatural?

The thing with Angels is, they're powerful and righteous. Kore (http://www.goblinscomic.com/09102005/),the unstoppable Paladin from the Goblins webcomic could be a good example of the kind of Angel that decides that evil must be stamped out. Hard and permanently.

Yora
2010-12-20, 12:01 PM
When seeing this thread, I had a similar idea to Sipex and Serpentine. Angels plan to do something good, but it also has negative consequences. The angles believe the consequences are unfortunate but neccessary, but completely worth it. The PCs disagree.
The interesting part about such a situation is, that both the angels and the (good) PCs will most probably want to prevent violence as much as possible, as their opponents really have good reasons and honorable motives. Because of this, a lot of the usual tactics to deal with problems can not be applied, by both sides.

Haberdashery
2010-12-20, 12:13 PM
Also remember that Angels are a step above humanity. They're immortal, almost entirely Lawful Good all the time, and are generally pretty close to being perfect beings. Most of them probably think they are perfect beings. Just because they are Lawful Good, and a handful of mortals happen to also be Lawful Good, does not mean they see eye-to-eye or even consider each other as allies. If you think about it, mortals are completely varied in alignment, a mortal can be good or evil easily. Mortals have a great capacity to do evil in the world, and Angels should realize this--meaning that there is no reason why Angels can't begin a campaign to rid the world of humanity. They cause too much evil for the piddly amount of good they bring, in the eyes of the Angels, and therefore for the greater good of the cosmos, they must be destroyed. Even good-aligned mortals are culled as well, because heaven knows when they'll swap sides of the alignment spectrum and wreak havoc.

Or alternatively, forget alignments of mortals entirely. Mortals cause a lot of problems, and always have. They only live a small amount of time, and they have no real foresight into the future. They act for the moment, and rarely consider the ramification of their actions, which can cause untold amounts of destruction to the universe. Think about how many eldritch abominations are let loose by unsuspecting or easily-fooled humanity. The Angels may have gotten tired of this, seeing the mortal races as just a blight to the universe. Ridding the world of these vermin is a good act to them, and therefore it's alright to slaughter them all.

Angry Bob
2010-12-20, 12:34 PM
I've always preferred the worldview where good and evil are tangible forces, but angels are imperfect. Thus, because an angel has the good subtype, a planetar standing in the middle of a burned-down orphanage eating a puppy would still light up under detect good, and killing it to avenge all the orphans would still constitute an alignment shift towards evil.

monkey3
2010-12-20, 12:56 PM
I was on the TPK end of a campaign that (at the end) had one of its gods go insane. All of his angels were still LG, but following his order to kill all things Neutral and evil, so they were cutting a path of destruction through the world.

The problem is that Angels (Solars in particular) are not made to be an enemy. They have stupid op powers like ____ at will, and heal every round, and other crazy stuff no other creature has.

So use them sparingly as enemies. You'll have to nerf them, play them dumb, or have TPK.

SITB
2010-12-20, 01:14 PM
Planescape: Torment had an antagonistical angel (A Deva)

Thrown out of Celestia for trying to make the angels take a more provocative stance against the Demons/Devils. He plans to give a city too the Devils so he can have a squad of them to lead to attacl Celestia in order to rouse the other Celestials to fight against the Demons/Devils rather than have the "as long as they are fighting each other..." approach. His quote sums it best


Trias: I will not be judged by you mortal; not when you have lived the lives you have. Let me tell you of Betrayal: betrayal is cowardice... selling weapons to your adversaries out of fear that they might stop killing each other and turn upon you. Betrayal is refusing to lead by example. Betrayal is letting the Fiends run rampart through the Planes until evil has corrupted all hearts.


There is also that whole fiasco in NWN 2:Mask of The Betrayer

Ao decreed that the Wall of the Faithless will stand because otherwise mortal beings have no incentive to beleive in gods (Wherein if they fail to believe in gods their souls go there to be tormented for eternity). So either your own party member, the Half-Angel Kaelyin the Dove who tried to lead a crusade to bring down the wall, turns agaisnt you for trying to preserve it or you fight Kelemvor Celestial servants who are attempting to stop your attempt to bring it down.

Mastikator
2010-12-20, 01:34 PM
Words

Err. Lanter Archons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#lanternArchon) have INT 6, WIS 11, CHA 10. That's inferior to the average human.
Hound Archons have INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 12, better than humans but not considerably so.
Trumphet Archons have INT 16, WIS 16, CHA 16, considerably better than humans, but they're the the top of the archon hierarchy, I don't know the ratio of Trumphets to Lanters or Trumphets to Hounds, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's closed to the same ratio of people with the same INT, WIS and CHA.

Randalor
2010-12-20, 01:46 PM
I didn't see it mentioned here, but if you were wanting to do the "Angels are evil/antagonistic" rout, you could go with the typical Shin Megami Tensei angels. They are more "Lawful Neutral" to "Lawful Evil" (with some being good), and who usually want to turn reality into a plane of pure Law, where everyone has lost their free will and worships God.

The players could learn of this plan somehow for the campaign, and by the end of the campaign, are fighting their way through the celestial plane to punch god in the face.

Comet
2010-12-20, 01:52 PM
One of my most succesful and long running campaigns revolved around a struggle between Law and Chaos, inspired by the Shin Megami Tensei series of games. I'll spoiler it for length, but I'm really glad of how it all turned out.


The basic idea is that Angels and other Good outsiders wanted to build a perfect world without wars or crime. This, unfortunately, meant tyranny on a cosmic scale.
The players, who worked for this nation of tyrant saints for a time, finally decided that this was not cool, and embarked on a quest to shake the foundations of the world and ensure that all men and women in the world would retain their free will.

By the end of the campaign they discovered that Pelor was the god responsible for the whole mess. They then convinced the rest of the gods to become their allies and killed the Sun God, bringing freedom into the world once again. Unfortunately the battle was fierce enough to bring down practically every other god, too, and when the dust settled the material plane was utterly devoid of divine influence.

The kicker? This world without gods was helpless against a new threat, which promptly devoured it and turned the entire material plane into a hostile world of shadows and death.
This deathworld was, incidentally, the same one that we had been playing in the previous campaign. The players' crusade against the Angels turned into a prologue of a much darker story.

When you start knocking on heaven's door with a battle axe infused with the power of Anarchy, the universe is bound to break a little in the brawl that follows.

edit: Randalor beat me to it! Always nice to see more people aware of MegaTen.

Eldan
2010-12-20, 01:54 PM
I said "above lanterns", though. And that's still nearly a standard deviation for archons, until I'm mistaken. There's just as many exceptional archons as exceptional humans, and they are smarter. And then there's the higher archons, the levels above trumpets, they are a different thing entirely, on average smarter and wiser than a mortal can ever hope to be.

Urpriest
2010-12-20, 02:18 PM
Here's a thought: it's already been mentioned that most angels are better at everything than the average mortal. Why not have a group of angels/archons intent on turning all mortals into outsiders? I could especially see this in an "angels living alongside mortals" society like Eldan described. The angels are aware that humans are unhappy and feel excluded from power, so they want to bring humans into the celestial embrace...which has the side effects of making them compulsorily lawful good and leading to the extinction of humanity. The angels might even let people choose whether or not to convert, but they'd push the service like drug dealers, and mortals would be brought to rage against the dying of their species.

Also, the spell often referred to as Holy Mindrape has some good angelic antagonist potential.

Storm Bringer
2010-12-20, 02:21 PM
how do you make Angels the antagonists?

by having the players fight for Chaos!

seriously, if the archons Lawfulness is strong enough, they might take the view that the good of socitey is more important than the good of any one person. "needs of the many", and all that.

if you take it to the extreme, you can argue that it is (lawful) good to enforce conformity with social norms, as dissenting opinions can lead to conflict. Thus, doing things like running "Mental correction" camps where people are magically "Adjusted" to the LG mindset, or the violent supression of dissenting opinions, can be justifed. after all, if everybody thinks the same, then thier can be no conflict.



another, less despotic option:

The players work for a good aligned kingdom, which is at war with another good aligned kingdom (hey, it happens. disputes over borders, one king pressing him claim to the throne of the other, etc. most "real-world" motives for conflict are amoral). The opposing kingdom has the favour of one of the settings good aligned Gods (like Sigmar for Warhamer's Empire, or the Lady for Bretonnia form the same setting), who has sent some of his Servants to help "His" people.

Eldan
2010-12-20, 02:22 PM
You mean using Polymorph (into Archons) and Sanctify the Wicked to go all Stepford on the mortal world? Might work.

Storm Bringer
2010-12-20, 03:01 PM
the latter, mostly, with a good helping of old fashioned Room 101 style brain breaking thrown in for good mesure.

basically, the idea is:

IF, by forcibly changing the alignments of Non LG persons to LG, or or at least affecting a change in thier actions to a LG norm, you can reduce or entirely remove conflict and crime, THEN you are justifed in using any and all means to achieve this, dispite any personal freedoms you may trample along the way, as you are improving the lot of the whole of socity.

CodeRed
2010-12-20, 03:03 PM
You mean using Polymorph (into Archons) and Sanctify the Wicked to go all Stepford on the mortal world? Might work.

I especially like this idea. In order to "save" humanity the Archons start kidnapping people to cast Sanctify the Wicked on. Since the spell takes a full year to complete, these people will be missing for a long period of time and when they come back they will be changed, perhaps with golden eyes to reflect the spell. Go with a whole "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" vibe and you could really have some fun with it.

You now have superhuman beings that want to make everyone "just like them." Also, as being more intelligent and wiser, clearly they see the benefit greater than you do so for your own good they must do it against your will.

Grelna the Blue
2010-12-20, 03:03 PM
how do you make Angels the antagonists?

by having the players fight for Chaos!

seriously, if the archons Lawfulness is strong enough, they might take the view that the good of socitey is more important than the good of any one person. "needs of the many", and all that.

if you take it to the extreme, you can argue that it is (lawful) good to enforce conformity with social norms, as dissenting opinions can lead to conflict. Thus, doing things like running "Mental correction" camps where people are magically "Adjusted" to the LG mindset, or the violent supression of dissenting opinions, can be justifed. after all, if everybody thinks the same, then thier can be no conflict.

There was a truly awful item in the 2nd Ed Tome of Magic called the Mirror of Simple Order (http://www.thievesguild.cc/items/index.php?itemid=128) that I used to PC-terrifying effect as a judicial punishment in a particularly lawful empire in a past campaign. Break the law badly enough and you were offered the choice of 10 years working in the mines or as a galley slave or taking your chances with the Mirror. Break the law really badly and you got the Mirror whether you wanted it or not.

Nowadays I have put a modified homebrew LG version of that item called the Mirror of Perfection in my current game as the most powerful (and currently lost) holy relic in the game world. It will kill the target on a failed save or "perfect" the target on a successful save. The save has hefty bonuses if the person is already good, lesser bonuses if already lawful (if both the save is automatically successful) and negatives to the save if currently evil. The target isn't automatically made LG on a successful save, but is moved at least one step toward Good and if already Good at least one step toward Lawful. If the target chooses, they can go the whole way. SR is really the only defense, and the Mirror has a very high caster level. As it would make a truly horrendous weapon, I have limited it so that when used it automatically transports itself back to the teleport-blocked and dimensionally-warded monster infested high temple it came from. The forces of darkness have an interest in seeing it kept out of circulation and make sure the monster supply is regularly topped off.

As that temple is within the monster-infested ruins of the lost city of Sto Vengalis in the middle of a remote jungle inhabited by savage barbarian descendants of the Old Vengalians who consider the city taboo, it doesn't get a lot of foot traffic. One group of PCs went looking for and retrieved the Mirror two campaigns ago to cure an NPC afflicted with a curse caused by another (lesser) artifact, but it is once again back where it was found.

Steamsaint
2010-12-20, 03:10 PM
I'm actually just starting to run a campaign in which the single god of the campaign will be summoned by a great ritual by the initial antagonist halfway through. From there on the god itself will be the antagonist, simply because its presence within the world is slowly altering the world to suit itself; e.g. to become the god's divine realm. Following this is the alteration of normal people into angels etc. while the players are the only ones who oppose this change as some of the few people with the willpower and strength to resist the passive effects of the god's presence.

The simple fact that they are opposing his presence causes the god to fight back.

RndmNumGen
2010-12-20, 03:44 PM
Keep in mind that angels are the embodiment of Lawful and Good, so they easily tend to excesses, at mortals' eyes.

This, especially if whatever organization the angels are part of tends more towards Law than Good. Conversely it can be the other way; if you have a group of CG celestials that go too far in their hunt for demons and devils, their can be some antagonism there as well.

If you've played Fall from Heaven 2, Basium is an excellent example of this. For those who haven't, he's an archangel who is so fanatical about killing demons that he willingly fell(giving up his immortality in the process) so that he could break celestial law whenever it prevented him from killing demons, or anyone who is affiliated with demons, or anyone who at one point may have been involved in some event which may have been related to demons. He and his followers are much more of the avenging crusader archtype where they are more concerned with eradicating Evil than protecting Good, sort of like Miko was. If you think of an entire organization like this, it is easy to see how they can go so far in their pursuit that they can act as an antagonist.

Shadowleaf
2010-12-20, 04:10 PM
There's a third party d20 book called The Wrath (or Anger?) of Angels. It's actually really good for this kind of thing. The fluff on fallen angels is really, really good.

Eldan
2010-12-20, 04:19 PM
I'd watch out, though:

If you make them super lawful, more Lawful neutral bordering evil than Lawful good, it's really not "we are fighting angels" anymore and becomes "we are fighting the evil tyrant empire".
Instead, emphasizing that they are doing this for the greater good, that they understand your concerns, that they would love to talk about your ideas and that they really, really regret what they have to do makes them that much more memorable.

SoC175
2010-12-20, 05:02 PM
Keep in mind that angels are the embodiment of Lawful and Good Actually angels are the embodiment of Good. While they can also Chaotic or Lawful, the majority of them is just Good.

Beside them you have the camps of the true Chaotic Good Celestials and the true Lawful Good Celestials, which are often also called angels by the clueless and just as often disagree with each others idea of the ideal Good

Mikeavelli
2010-12-20, 05:33 PM
I have, it went over fantastically. Here's the story;

It all began, in fact, with the summoning of a Fiend by some two-bit mageling who was in over his head from the start. The truly powerful wizards of this world explicitly forbid summoning anything from the outer planes (Imagine Mordenkainen's circle with a conviniently altered philosophy to make this storyline possible) - they routinely cast divination spells seeking out anyone summoning outsiders, banish the outsiders, and punish the summoner.

This particular fiend was a Yugoloth associated with a powerful artifact of ages past, the mageling wanted to summon it, bargain for information about the location of that artifact, and banish it. He nevertheless took extreme measures to prevent from being found out (mind blanking necklace, summoning chamber completely encased in lead, etc.) The Yugoloth instead called in a favor from an evil power, walked out of the summoning circle, killed the mageling, stole his divination protection items, and went to ground.

This was a fairly major event of breaking the rules, which the heavens became aware of, and agents were sent to smite the Fiend. Completely unaware of one another, a Throne Archon and a Ghale Eladrin came down to the Prime and, unable to act openly because they'd be forcibly banished by the aforementioned Wizard's guild, set about investigating.

At this point, the characters themselves (who were fairly famous in the local area, but hadn't visited this particular city before) were contacted by the guild, and asked to find out what was actually going on.

Because both angels were taking fairly extreme measures to avoid being detected, and they were at the same time using all the resources they had at their disposal to try and track down the fiend using conventional means (because Divination was flatly ineffective) - they became convinced that each other were the very fiends they were trying to track down and destroy.

The justification was that the Archon quickly took control of the city's lawful resources (nobility, law enforcement, etc.) and set about investigating the most likely places for a fiend to be hiding (thieves guilds, rogues, chaotic elements of society)

The Eladrin banded together many of the chaotic elements of society, created a guild consisting entirely of rogues with a heart of gold, and set about investigating the places where a fiend would obviously center it's power, the nobility, official government insitutions, and law enforcement.

[hr]

As it worked out, the Players seperated and talked to both angels independently instead of talking to one or another as a group (as I'd expected\wanted them to do...) - so I wasn't able to convince them that the other angel was clearly a fiend in disguise. They pulled off some diplomacy and role-playing and ended up figuring out where the Yugoloth was hiding, and everyone teamed up to raid its lair.

Runestar
2010-12-20, 08:21 PM
Okay, so the concept is much more complex than I originally envisioned. :smalltongue:

Some more thoughts while lying in bed waiting to fall asleep.

1) Why would angels take on the onerous task of governing a nation anyways. What do they get out of it? I suppose it could first stem from necessity. The nation may originally haven been on the verge of collapse following some calamity, and the heavens decided to step in to restore order (and incidentally rebuilding it in their image in the process).

I like the idea of them being frustrated by mankind "mismanaging" the earth, and stepping in because they believe (correctly) that they can do a better job. But what if they had some other plans, or a bigger agenda for the citizens? Maybe they want to make sure the souls of the people reach their god, rather than some other evil god or devil prince?

2) What would be the pros of a nation governed by angels? And could these later turn into cons? They have a laundry list of SLAs usable at-will. The astral deva can remove curse/disease at will, while planetars and solars have raise dead and resurrection respectively. The latter can even cast miracle/wish! Trumpet archons are competent spellcasters as well.

So it seems the common folk would have very stable lives, being well fed, properly clothed, very low crime rates, plagues, diseases and sicknesses virtually eradicated. Heck, even death could be undone (barring old age).

This might in turn lead to other issues like overpopulation, since people have longer life expectancies and no longer die of natural causes. What might the angels to control this? Contraception? Decreeing that everyone past a certain age must die?

3) Where do humans fit into all these? As pointed out earlier, they certainly seem superfluous, being kept around the same way one might own a pet or herd cattle (since outsiders do everything better and faster). What role would they play in such a society, barring cheap labour?

All in all, it would seem like the perfect world. What compelling reasons might a bunch of adventurers have for wanting "to take back their world", even though things would probably be worse off without their wisdom and guidance?

Chilingsworth
2010-12-20, 08:31 PM
Okay, so the concept is much more complex than I originally envisioned. :smalltongue:

Some more thoughts while lying in bed waiting to fall asleep.

1) Why would angels take on the onerous task of governing a nation anyways. What do they get out of it? I suppose it could first stem from necessity. The nation may originally haven been on the verge of collapse following some calamity, and the heavens decided to step in to restore order (and incidentally rebuilding it in their image in the process).

I like the idea of them being frustrated by mankind "mismanaging" the earth, and stepping in because they believe (correctly) that they can do a better job. But what if they had some other plans, or a bigger agenda for the citizens? Maybe they want to make sure the souls of the people reach their god, rather than some other evil god or devil prince?

2) What would be the pros of a nation governed by angels? And could these later turn into cons? They have a laundry list of SLAs usable at-will. The astral deva can remove curse/disease at will, while planetars and solars have raise dead and resurrection respectively. The latter can even cast miracle/wish! Trumpet archons are competent spellcasters as well.

So it seems the common folk would have very stable lives, being well fed, properly clothed, very low crime rates, plagues, diseases and sicknesses virtually eradicated. Heck, even death could be undone (barring old age).

This might in turn lead to other issues like overpopulation, since people have longer life expectancies and no longer die of natural causes. What might the angels to control this? Contraception? Decreeing that everyone past a certain age must die?

3) Where do humans fit into all these? As pointed out earlier, they certainly seem superfluous, being kept around the same way one might own a pet or herd cattle (since outsiders do everything better and faster). What role would they play in such a society, barring cheap labour?

All in all, it would seem like the perfect world. What compelling reasons might a bunch of adventurers have for wanting "to take back their world", even though things would probably be worse off without their wisdom and guidance?

What reason? How about simple contrariness? Humans, especially, seem good at that.

MickJay
2010-12-20, 08:44 PM
1. Make the angelic rule embodiment of wise benevolence, but let the players witness some events that will suggest to them that there's something wrong going on. Most players will jump on this, and decide to fight for "free will" of the "oppressed" humanity (extra chances of that happening if there already is some form of resistance - strongly chaotic, and possibly also mildly evil, with some hidden agenda). Will take some work to prevent players from discovering that they're basically the bad guys (although with good intentions) too early.

2. The players could themselves be neutral (or even evil), and disagree with "imposing" of Goodness on the people.

3. Angels are unaware of some nasty side effect their presence is causing (balance of the world in danger? perhaps all the concentrated Goodness makes some other are more exposed to Evil influences?). Being imperfect, they will dismiss such revelations from the players, or will suggest a solution that the players found/will find unacceptable.

pingcode20
2010-12-20, 08:46 PM
If you've played Fall from Heaven 2, Basium is an excellent example of this. For those who haven't, he's an archangel who is so fanatical about killing demons that he willingly fell(giving up his immortality in the process) so that he could break celestial law whenever it prevented him from killing demons, or anyone who is affiliated with demons, or anyone who at one point may have been involved in some event which may have been related to demons. He and his followers are much more of the avenging crusader archtype where they are more concerned with eradicating Evil than protecting Good, sort of like Miko was. If you think of an entire organization like this, it is easy to see how they can go so far in their pursuit that they can act as an antagonist.

I do remember one interesting little fact about Basium (with the evil opposite occurring for his infernal counterpart): Every Good unit that was killed, and a chunk of the population of any Good city that was razed turned into an angel for his armies.

This led to the very dark conclusion that not only was it good for him to let the forces of good die, but it was a perfectly strategic move for him to burn his fellow good civilisations to the ground to get more angels for his army.

Smiling Knight
2010-12-20, 09:21 PM
That has more to do with game mechanics then fluff, though. And iirc Kael (the creator of Fall from Heaven) has stated that, in a world which is actively being invaded by the forces of Hell itself, fanaticism and inability to see moral grey areas is not necessarily unhealthy.

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-20, 09:31 PM
If anyone's ever read Death Note, this idea is pretty familiar. While the manga never actually had angels (and the only higher powers seemed pretty uninterested) there was a theme throughout that might apply.

A group of lawful angels takes the law upon themselves, descending to the material realm and creating a world of perfect good, mostly by killing evil individuals. Your party opposes this because they feel they are living in a world without free will, and furthermore feel they are becoming slaves of the celestial.

This raises two primary concerns for a party, one being that holy celestials are very powerful. The second concern they must face is that, at least in one regard, evil really is leaving the world. The party must suddenly question there own actions. Note that the angels do not limit their purging just to truly evil beings: Inevitably, they get pickier about who is evil and who is good. Soon it goes from killing evil to killing only minor evil. Soon neutral people are killed as well, and children are not exempt. Eventually the methods of purging become more sadistic and sinister, and more innocents must worry. Eventually even chaotic good people are killed.

The Big Dice
2010-12-20, 10:20 PM
Again, take a leaf out of the Supernatural playbook.

The deity in charge of this group of Angels, call them the Garrison, has been AWOL for some time. Mortal clerics are still getting their powers,but any attempts to find the deity's location just gets a response that's something like scrambled egg.

Because the deity is absent, the Angels are becoming fractious and they are splitting into two main factions.

One group believes that they need to carry the fight to their enemies, whoever the traditional enemies of the patron deity might be. They are coming to the Prime to kick ass and take names. The names being the servants of the deity's enemies, which leads them on to more ass kicking. The situation is spiraling out of control, with more and more powerful forces manifesting.

The other group are more moderate. They believe they should continue as they were. No new orders from Above means no change in their activities. However, the more aggressive faction are causing problems. The moderates are being forced to take action. It's only a matter of time before civil war breaks out between the servants of this missing deity.

There are giants in the playground and they don't care who they step on. If I can borrow a phrase...

Serpentine
2010-12-20, 10:32 PM
An extra bit to think about: Mortals have Afterlives and can be resurrected. Celestials do not and can not. So, from the angelic point of view, mortal life is cheap. What does it matter if they die? They'll live forever in the afterlife, anyway, and if they have rich friends they'll just be brought back to life, anyway!
I can see this being used to justify some pretty awful things, as well as being the source of some real bitterness which might be the real reason they do them (even if they don't admit it even to themselves).

Urpriest
2010-12-20, 10:57 PM
Another idea from a very different direction: there are many reasons to fight besides alignment identities. In mythology, many people fight because of vendettas fueled by their kin. Perhaps an angel (justifiably or not) slew an ancestor of a PC. To restore the ancestor's good name the PC must defeat the angel, fighting past the other angels that stand in their way.

Winter_Wolf
2010-12-20, 11:23 PM
I like Serpentine's idea. My first thought was that these angelic beings were all over the top types. "You're all sinners! Clearly we HAVE to save you from yourselves!"

It simply doesn't matter how good or lawful any mortal is, because they'll never measure up to the ridiculous standards imposed on them. Okay there's the fact that they become like an Evil Empire to be thwarted, but I can't really see it playing out any different in practice if they're going to be long-term antagonists, unless your PCs are all angelic beings with differing agenda.

Eldan
2010-12-21, 04:46 AM
3) Where do humans fit into all these? As pointed out earlier, they certainly seem superfluous, being kept around the same way one might own a pet or herd cattle (since outsiders do everything better and faster). What role would they play in such a society, barring cheap labour?


This one depends entirely on whether you use angels or archons.

Archons are, after all, made from souls that go to Celestia after their deaths. So if they can get more mortals to be Lawful good, more celestials are made. They can shift the balance of the planes in their favour. They need as many humans as possible, and they need them lawful good.

Angels, on the other hand, are created as the servants of the gods of good. They would, in the end, mostly seek to strengthen their gods, by bringing mortals into their flock.

So in both cases mortals are, in the most well-meaning and benevolent manner, treated as cattle.

Dr.Epic
2010-12-21, 04:53 AM
If the party is evil than wouldn't this be a recurring theme?

Runestar
2010-12-21, 05:24 AM
Any idea on that fallen angel quest from DDO and where I might find the backstory? I have not been successful in locating it and don't feel like spending too much time sifting through their website. :smallsmile:

Trekkin
2010-12-21, 06:54 AM
Reading this thread, it occured to me that you could take a slightly different angle on angelic perfection: a perfect or near-perfect Lawful being is unlikely to come up with a system of government particularly conducive to change, and is quite likely to optimize itself into a local maximum; every process and protocol is set in stone because if changed it a little bit, it gets worse.

Quoted from Ayn Rand's Anthem:

"This (light) box is useless," said Alliance 6-7349.

"Should it be what they claim of it," said Harmony 9-2642, "then it would bring ruin to the Department of Candles. The Candle is a great boon to mankind, as approved by all men. Therefore it cannot be destroyed by the whim of one."

"This would wreck the Plans of the World Council," said Unanimity 2-9913, "and without the Plans of the World Council the sun cannot rise. It took fifty years to secure the approval of all the Councils for the Candle, and to decide upon the number needed, and to re-fit the Plans so as to make candles instead of torches. This touched upon thousands and thousands of men working in scores of States. We cannot alter the Plans again so soon."

"And if this should lighten the toil of men," said Similarity 5-0306, "then it is a great evil, for men have no cause to exist save in toiling for other men."

Then Collective 0-0009 rose and pointed at our box.

"This thing," they said, "must be destroyed."

And all the others cried as one:

"It must be destroyed!"

If the PCs have a lightbulb to the angels' bureaucratic candle (perhaps, as non-angels capable of imperfect thought, they were somehow inspired), it becomes a conflict between two sides, neither of which is really wrong, but both of which seek to assimilate the other--and with enough fervor that can get bloody.

If an (imo rather simplistic) example would help, I recommend Timothy Zahn's The Hand of Thrawn duology.

pendell
2010-12-21, 11:30 AM
Possibly one way to set up angels as antagonists would be to steal the concept of "Deep Magic" and "Deeper Magic" from the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.

Think of the "deep magic" as the law that the lawful good angels are sworn to uphold and enforce. The "deeper magic" is the law beyond the law, the law of grace and mercy, the law that at once fulfills the merely 'deep magic' while at the same time transcending it.

So, imagine this:
1) A character falls afoul of the deep magic.
2) The angels, being LG, are tasked with the punishment of this character.
3) The character is repentant -- genuinely repentant -- and seeks the path of the deeper magic, to find atonement and redemption for evil. He collects some LG characters to assist him in this journey.
4) The angels don't believe him. Repentence? Mercy? Suuure. They see him as just another evil guy trying to get out of his just punishment. In fact, let's make the leader of the angels a version of Javert from Les Miserables, a person who believes that once a sinner always a sinner, and there can be neither redemption nor forgiveness for the imperfect.

This would allow us to set up the reverse of the normal 'storm the gates of hell' adventure -- in this case, the heroes are storming the gates of *Heaven!* Let us say that in the seventh heaven, the final step on the final top of the mountain, is a being who will grant the hero redemption for his evil deeds. But to get there, he has to get through hordes of cherubim, seraphim, Lanterns, all of whom have no conception of flaws, of imperfection, of mercy, of redemption.

Along this journey, our heroes experience a number of moral tests, as well as the usual adventurers' bag of traps, tricks, and fiendish- erm, angelically difficult puzzles. The angels, you see, have a sense of irony; the characters are journeying to Heaven to find redemption, and the angels wish them to be undone by their own sins, to prove that the humans are not truly good, only seeking escape from pain like rats from a trap.

The heroes must meet and pass these tests to prove not only their mad combat skillz, but the fact that they really are LG and desire to be so. Thus, they undertake the journey to find redemption, but in fact redemption comes through the journey itself.

That is how *I* would set up angels as antagonists. The Athenians once said "we obey the law, and the law that is above the law." If there is such a possibility -- of a deep magic and a deeper magic -- then it is quite possible for beings which are immortal but NOT omniscient to come into conflict with LG beings who are mortal but bound by this higher law.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Grelna the Blue
2010-12-21, 11:40 AM
Possibly one way to set up angels as antagonists would be to steal the concept of "Deep Magic" and "Deeper Magic" from the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.

Think of the "deep magic" as the law that the lawful good angels are sworn to uphold and enforce. The "deeper magic" is the law beyond the law, the law of grace and mercy, the law that at once fulfills the merely 'deep magic' while at the same time transcending it.

So, imagine this:
1) A character falls afoul of the deep magic.
2) The angels, being LG, are tasked with the punishment of this character.
3) The character is repentant -- genuinely repentant -- and seeks the path of the deeper magic, to find atonement and redemption for evil. He collects some LG characters to assist him in this journey.
4) The angels don't believe him. Repentence? Mercy? Suuure. They see him as just another evil guy trying to get out of his just punishment. In fact, let's make the leader of the angels a version of Javert from Les Miserables, a person who believes that once a sinner always a sinner, and there can be neither redemption nor forgiveness for the imperfect.

This would allow us to set up the reverse of the normal 'storm the gates of hell' adventure -- in this case, the heroes are storming the gates of *Heaven!* Let us say that in the seventh heaven, the final step on the final top of the mountain, is a being who will grant the hero redemption for his evil deeds. But to get there, he has to get through hordes of cherubim, seraphim, Lanterns, all of whom have no conception of flaws, of imperfection, of mercy, of redemption.

Along this journey, our heroes experience a number of moral tests, as well as the usual adventurers' bag of traps, tricks, and fiendish- erm, angelically difficult puzzles. The angels, you see, have a sense of irony; the characters are journeying to Heaven to find redemption, and the angels wish them to be undone by their own sins, to prove that the humans are not truly good, only seeking escape from pain like rats from a trap.

The heroes must meet and pass these tests to prove not only their mad combat skillz, but the fact that they really are LG and desire to be so. Thus, they undertake the journey to find redemption, but in fact redemption comes through the journey itself.

That is how *I* would set up angels as antagonists. The Athenians once said "we obey the law, and the law that is above the law." If there is such a possibility -- of a deep magic and a deeper magic -- then it is quite possible for beings which are immortal but NOT omniscient to come into conflict with LG beings who are mortal but bound by this higher law.

Respectfully,

Brian P.Myself, I wouldn't dare GM such an adventure arc, although I could easily oversee the storming of Hell. For two decades now I've wanted to see a party imitate Orpheus. However, I would dearly love to be a character in such an adventure as you describe.

kieza
2010-12-21, 11:48 AM
The angels I'm using in a homebrew setting are...less nice than most. They aren't the "servants and messengers of the gods" that mortals believe them to be, but since they reside on the Astral Plane, which is mutable by belief, they've taken on some of those characteristics as the result of mortal worship...and they know it, and don't like it. They were actually left behind by the gods after they created the world and moved on to the next, in order to prevent Cosmic Horrors from entering the world via the Astral Plane, but since mortals have started worshiping them, their belief has altered some of them in appearance and mentality, turning them into what mortals expect (flawlessly religious and not particularly militant beings of light), and drawing them away from the defense of the Astral Plane. Oh, and demons? They were created because mortals believed in fallen angels.

So, the angels which haven't been corrupted aren't all that fond of mortals; they fear that the mortals might eventually get to them, too, and a lot of them are thinking seriously about killing off sentient life in order to save themselves and continue their mission.

Frozen_Feet
2010-12-21, 12:12 PM
My idea is of a bit smaller scale:

One of the PCs has avoided death one too many times. Angel of Death is now coming for him. It's nothing personal, it just really, really is that character's time.

For bonus points, make Death really affable towards all characters who aren't its targets. Also, really horrible looking. It's not proper Angel of Death if it isn't covered in eyes and have twelve wings. :smallwink:

Yora
2010-12-21, 02:56 PM
The angels I'm using in a homebrew setting are...less nice than most. They aren't the "servants and messengers of the gods" that mortals believe them to be, but since they reside on the Astral Plane, which is mutable by belief, they've taken on some of those characteristics as the result of mortal worship...and they know it, and don't like it.
In my setting, there's only one outer plane and all it's inhabitants are demons. Angles are a subgroup of demons that has a more benevolent attitude towards mortals and oppose the corruption done by other demons. But they are still demons. Like the rogue Quori in Eberron.

Urpriest
2010-12-21, 03:06 PM
Another way to make archons into antagonists: being lawful, archons would be very loathe to break promises. Perhaps an archon/group of archons made a deal with some mortal, and now that mortal's descendant is using them for evil means. They can't get out of the deal because they can't break promises, so the players have to take them down to release them from their pact.

Shade Kerrin
2010-12-21, 04:50 PM
Note that the angels do not limit their purging just to truly evil beings: Inevitably, they get pickier about who is evil and who is good. Soon it goes from killing evil to killing only minor evil. Soon neutral people are killed as well, and children are not exempt. Eventually the methods of purging become more sadistic and sinister, and more innocents must worry. Eventually even chaotic good people are killed.

Wasn't this exact point also a key event in the history of the Dragonlance universe? Not involving angels, but the society of Good that ruled the earth slowly shrunk it's definition of Good until only devout worshipers of a single god were not hunted down.
Then the gods got angry and killed everyone.

MickJay
2010-12-21, 07:51 PM
Main problem I would have with many of suggested scenarios lies in the fact that the more "acceptable" as opponents the Good beings become, the less Good they actually have to be. They don't believe in mercy and forgiveness? That's a very much LN approach. They start eliminating non-evil beings for the "greater" Good? They'd turn Evil very quickly, and so on, and so forth. On top of that, it's much more difficult to justify the angels' ignorance or lack of knowledge, which can occasionally be used as an explanation for a Good mortal's misguided behaviour. In short, angels who are neither truly Good nor wiser than mortals are just another bunch of outsiders, even if they do happen to have fancy wings and a halo. Certain Neutral (and definitely Evil) parties can, quite conceivably, have a reason to move against what I'd call "true" Angels; Good parties, not so much.

Zaq
2010-12-21, 09:47 PM
As I see it, the strongly alignment-based outsiders don't necessarily have quite as much free will as mortals do. What if something or someone could use that to their advantage (and the detriment of someone else)? That way you wouldn't have to have the whole "LG is really LN and leaning towards LE" dictatorships or Holy Purges that keep coming up.

Reading over that, I'm not sure that what I said makes sense. If you don't find it helpful, disregard it.

Cerlis
2010-12-21, 09:54 PM
cant belive (as far as i've seen) no one has mentioned Bayonetta (Ok, well i just picked up the game so I guess i'm biased)

I think the best thing for a fully story "This is the main theme of the campaign, My world is different" stiche would be to take some Bayonetta, some Dante's Inferno and some Warcraft. Put it in a blender with some other things and bamf!

I think the coolest idea would be that Angels and outsiders are Lawful Good creatures, but as others have said here. They have different values. Mortal lives are expendable, and even mortal souls are usually misguided. In real religion Angels are basically 100% good and flawless and all that jazz, but really..where the hell did outsiders in DnD come from? Well i suggest that its an army/civilization of Beings of Good and Law (mostly law) who exist purely in the spiritual world, and have taken it upon themselves to long ago sheperd the souls of mortals. Think Ori (Stargate aliens, i think thats them. The ones who kept converting people forcibly) mixed with Naaru from Warcraft. They are powerful transident beings who are more intelligent and more knowledgable and thus they "know better"...

The problem is they are not flawless. People for millinia have taken their ruling for granted. Paradise, and the Abyss. its all a part of the natural order. But somehow the PCs find out the truth, a truth that has been guarded at the expense of many mortals lives. That Angels, the Gods, paradise and Abyss (heaven and hell i guess) are not the "way of things" they wherent always there. Its all based on the outsiders judgments. and that seems all well and good, but there are some laws that are strange. Unsanctified dead babies not going to paradise? Good people who do not obey certian tennants going to the Abyss? This is horrible!! Who do these things think they are, judging our dead and forcing our souls into their own justice system.

And whatever the PCs feelings about it, if they think its fair or not, their knowledge of the secret risks rebellion for everyone, so they need to be destroyed like so many others

Callista
2010-12-22, 01:59 AM
You probably want Chaos-Versus-Law conflicts if angels are going to be antagonists; and you should expect a lot of role-play rather than fighting.

For example--ever read the Dresden Files series? Harry Dresden is CG (strong Good, weak Chaos), and often finds himself at odds with the Council, especially Morgan... and the Council is generally LG, with strong Law and weak Good tendencies (Morgan himself is LG, though you wouldn't know it from Harry's perspective until Harry gets to know the man). The primary conflict there is chaos versus law; everybody's on the side of Good--they just disagree about their methods. The Council thinks Harry is a dangerous loose cannon; Harry thinks the Council is too draconian and too quick to judge. That's probably one of the best examples I can think of where Good-aligned people are fighting each other; and as you know if you've read the books, they don't go and try to kill each other--they're too busy trying to deal with the real evil in the world--but there's a lot of bad blood, a lot of politics, and a lot of threatening on both sides.

So if you're going to do this, I suggest something a lot like the above--you have people who are good, they basically care about others' welfare, but they're facing a big problem that they need to solve and they differ on what should be done about it. Both sides think the other side will absolutely ruin everything and possibly destroy the world if they get their way; but neither side wants to go on a killing spree because they're still really decent people.

A real-life example of law versus chaos conflict would, of course, be the liberal-versus-conservative American political system (CN versus LN)--once again, sincere people on both sides; both sides want to solve the same problems; and both sides think the other's going to mess everything up if they get their hands on it. (Why yes, I am politically moderate; how did you guess?) This and other similar conflicts would serve as interesting examples to model a struggle in which neither side is evil.

Tvtyrant
2010-12-22, 04:46 AM
There is a book series "The Prince of Nothing" where a group of aliens grant an elfy group immortality but it kills all of the women. You could just as easily make the immortality the angels are granting to humans a source of permanent sterility, and your party has to stop them from forcibly sterilizing humanity for its own good.