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Totally Guy
2010-12-20, 09:35 AM
I think that I've figure out why I've been having difficulty engaging one of the players in the game I run.

I'd not realised that I was dealing with a casual type of gamer. I've been getting it wrong every week by talking about what's interesting to him about the game and then getting no reaction or participation when the "interesting thing" we've discussed becomes important.

I didn't really want to have him just hanging in the background. I find it more fun for the player to get involved. Should I just forget pushing and let him get on with it?

Have you got the casual guy at your table?

Sipex
2010-12-20, 09:46 AM
The D&D 4th edition Dungeon Master's Guide gives good descriptions of possible play styles you might run into. It's not 100% accurate because we, as people, are too complex to fully categorize but it might help.

That said, I don't have it on me but it does explain how each player has different things they like about the game. This also doesn't necessarily make them 'casual'.

How does this player like battles? Do they just fight because they have to? Do they try to come up with elaborate plans? Do they plan their build and try to be as combat capable as possible?

How does the player like role playing scenarios? Are they heavily involved or do they pipe in only when pestered? Do they get the spotlight offered to them?

How does the player interact with the group? Are they friendly and generally happy being someone who gives only minimal input to the game (the DMG categorizes this as a Watcher. Someone who plays for the social aspect).

Mastikator
2010-12-20, 09:47 AM
Maybe you can bribe him? I say reward roleplaying. Make roleplaying xp a significant portion of their total xp budget. Someone who doesn't roleplay (either because they're rollplaying or not playing) gets much less than those who do, perhaps only half, perhaps even less than half.
Make sure that trying also counts.

If that doesn't work. Ask him if he's ok with being in the background, and what exactly he is doing at the gaming table. This may sound harsh but he may need a new hobby, or at least a new group of casual players.

My experience with casual players is that they always get booted, or leave themselves.

Earthwalker
2010-12-20, 11:08 AM
Can you give me a better idea on what you mean by a casual player as I aren't sure what you mean ?

Oracle_Hunter
2010-12-20, 11:35 AM
Important Question: Is the casual player still having fun?

If no, then you should ask - point blank - what the Player would have fun doing. If possible, add it into your campaign. If not, then you might want to consider asking the Player if they'd like to leave the game. There's no reason for the Player to waste time with a game that they're never going to enjoy.

If yes, then there is no problem. Some people are just casual gamers: they like to show up to a table, roll some dice, have some snacks, and shoot the breeze with their friends. If their lack of engagement isn't slowing down the game or bothering anyone then don't worry about it.

hamishspence
2010-12-20, 11:36 AM
Yup- the 3.5 DMG2 referred to this as the "Lurker" subtype.

Totally Guy
2010-12-20, 11:37 AM
The player doesn't really play. He's along for the ride but I'm thinking now that the social aspect of gaming is why he shows up every week rather than participating in the game.

We are playing an all orc game about uniting a horde from separated tribes. All the guys are screwed up in some way, full of hatred.

The has told me that he's interested in seeing how his character will interact human mages. He's intersted in the conflict between his character and another player who's playing a manipulative vizier. And he's told me he's interested thwarting the evil Herzog Gawrok, the main villian.

But when those things come up he just sits back and lets whatever happen. He doesn't take the spotlight.


As for rewarding roleplaying... I do. This guy is falling behind he's not doing it.

Sipex
2010-12-20, 11:40 AM
Well, some things come to mind.

1) As oracle said, he might just be happy doing this. If he's playing along and not disrupting the game don't worry about it.

2) Maybe the other players overpower him? The spotlight seems easy to take in your position but to him it might need something stronger, like giving him the spotlight when these situations come up. He may just do nothing still.

3) Maybe he's waiting for the right time to instigate his plans or he doesn't want to be vocal about it? Give him a note pad and tell him he can write you notes on anything secret he wishes to do.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-12-20, 11:42 AM
The has told me that he's interested in seeing how his character will interact human mages. He's intersted in the conflict between his character and another player who's playing a manipulative vizier. And he's told me he's interested thwarting the evil Herzog Gawrok, the main villian.

But when those things come up he just sits back and lets whatever happen. He doesn't take the spotlight.
...interesting.

Well, perhaps he is just a Lurker. Ask him why he didn't take the spotlight next time one of these scenes come up. It could be as simple as him not feeling "quick on his feet" when it comes to dealing with novel situations. Depending on his answer you can modify these events in the future.

And, of course, see if he's happy with how things are going. If it ain't broke, don't fix it :smallsmile:

Totally Guy
2010-12-20, 12:00 PM
Important Question: Is the casual player still having fun?

Not as much fun as he's having in the Vampire the Requiem game he's playing with a different group...

He writes play reports on facebook and tells loads of anecdotes about it.

But we used to play Vampire the Requiem together with the same GM from his other group. But even back in those days I never saw him doing anything different, taking a back seat.

I feel well and truly upstaged in that regard. The other game gets to be a tell-the-world facebook status. Mine must be an embarrassment in comparison. :(

Sipex
2010-12-20, 12:03 PM
Talk to this other GM and see how this player interacts with this group. Maybe he's more comfortable taking the spotlight with the people he plays with there? Are they the same players he plays with at your game?

Beyond that, the GM could've changed his style or maybe this player just isn't very interested in your campaign.

Or maybe he's taking a back seat in your campaign because he gets all the spotlight time he needs in the other game?

Totally Guy
2010-12-20, 12:21 PM
Talk to this other GM and see how this player interacts with this group.

He plays in my game. He's loving it! He tells me what things interest him and he makes his own opportunies to seize.

I asked about how he did his game and he offered to let me spectate. I declined because I cannot personally abide spectators. It makes me self-conscious. I'd be more comfortable if the others in their group were giving their consent...

Maybe some other time. I've played his games before and I found that there was Deus Ex Machina things going on that I felt de-protagonising. It sounds like he's improved anyway.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-12-20, 12:28 PM
Not as much fun as he's having in the Vampire the Requiem game he's playing with a different group...
(1) DM envy is a plague upon this Earth. Don't fall for it :smallyuk:

(2) If you want to up your game for this particular Player, do what Sipex said and ask the Other DM what he does to engage the Player. Be prepared to receive a shrug though.

Personally, I'm thinking this is just a system problem. It could be that the Player doesn't care for lots of dice rolling / combat: Vampire is not designed to require much of that while D&D is.

Anecdote
The GF of one of my Players recently got into RPGs and I've run 3 of the 4 games she's played in. At one point I had her in two of my games at the same time and could see the enthusiasm gap between them.

In my D&D4 game, she was cheery but not particularly enthusiastic. In combat she would tend to drift off and defer to her boyfriend (also playing); out of combat she would occasionaly engage in RP with other Players but seldom with NPCs. She kept notes for the group on the plot but seldom engaged with it. She would also frequently miss games in order to catch up on work or somesuch.

In my Bliss Stage game she was always super-excited about whatever was going on. She'd ham it up during Interludes (read: extended RP sessions) and genuinely fret about the status of her Relationships when they became injured in combat. She never missed a game and seemed willing to go to great lengths to be there for the game.

I spoke with her during the time these games were running concurrently, trying to figure out what made her tick. It turns out that she just isn't all that interested in mechanics or plot - she likes writing up stories about characters and engaging in character development and drama. It just so happens that Bliss Stage is designed to focus on characters & their development (in the literary sense) while D&D4 is more about going on adventures and such - of course she's going to have more fun with Bliss Stage!

...recently I surveyed interest for a SR3 game and she told me she was very enthusiastic about it - provided she never had to make a new character. No, she doesn't care about her character dying - she just doesn't want to go through the character creation process again! :smalltongue:

Case in point, really :smallbiggrin:

Totally Guy
2010-12-21, 07:56 AM
The system we are using is Burning Wheel.

I guess the main difference is that I expect the player to be proactive and head toward the beliefs he's got on the sheet. But the player doesn't really care about his beliefs.

In the other games we've played together we always had to guess what the GM's plot was. I'm not keen on that. It's boring. So that's not what I run.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-12-21, 09:32 AM
The system we are using is Burning Wheel.

I guess the main difference is that I expect the player to be proactive and head toward the beliefs he's got on the sheet. But the player doesn't really care about his beliefs.

In the other games we've played together we always had to guess what the GM's plot was. I'm not keen on that. It's boring. So that's not what I run.
Heh, if you're running Burning Wheel then I've got nothing :smalltongue:

Has he ever played Burning Wheel before? It does require a good deal more "character awareness" to play than most other systems - he might be either uncomfortable or uninterested with the mechanics.

Also: When you said this

The has told me that he's interested in seeing how his character will interact human mages. He's intersted in the conflict between his character and another player who's playing a manipulative vizier. And he's told me he's interested thwarting the evil Herzog Gawrok, the main villian.
Were you speaking about his interests as expressed as part of character creation? Because those aren't "real" interests - they're just plot points selected before anyone has a feel for the game.

Ask him again, and you may get a different answer. Or not :smalltongue:

true_shinken
2010-12-21, 10:04 AM
The system we are using is Burning Wheel.

I guess the main difference is that I expect the player to be proactive and head toward the beliefs he's got on the sheet. But the player doesn't really care about his beliefs.
Leave him be. Don't try to force anything on your players. Ask if he is having fun. If the answer is yes, just bear with it.

Britter
2010-12-21, 10:26 AM
Leave him be. Don't try to force anything on your players. Ask if he is having fun. If the answer is yes, just bear with it.

At issue here is that, in Burning Wheel, if you are not pursuing your goals as a player you end up quantitatively less able to improve your character and a less able to achieve success, due to how the Wheel awards characters. A character not working towards their Beliefs or playing their Instincts and Traits will not earn Artha (the in-game currency that is used to influence rolls).


Glug, it strikes me that it might be time to have a BITs talk with the player, and figure out what they want to do in the world. Generally, I have found that rewriting the Beliefs into strong, more definitive statements with little middle ground has been vital to kicking my characters out of ruts and inaction.

Alternately, pick a listed Belief and attack it HARD in game, and egg the player into acting. Make it a hard choice, with consequnces to either decision and no easy middle ground. If the listed Beliefs aren't strong enough to get him to act, then you definitely need to rewrite Beliefs with the player, if nothing else.

AyeGill
2010-12-21, 10:36 AM
Not having played burning wheel ever, i can only repeat what has already been said.

Ask him, under four eyes, if he's having fun with the game. Ask him what he'd like to do, what kinda plot he'd like to pursue. And if there was an opportunity for that recently, ask him why he didn't grab the spotlight. Maybe he doesn't know enough about the system or the game to make a well-thought-out decision?

true_shinken
2010-12-21, 01:16 PM
At issue here is that, in Burning Wheel, if you are not pursuing your goals as a player you end up quantitatively less able to improve your character and a less able to achieve success, due to how the Wheel awards characters. A character not working towards their Beliefs or playing their Instincts and Traits will not earn Artha (the in-game currency that is used to influence rolls).
So? Not everyone wants to 'win' encounters. Most casual players I met are just there to spend some time with their friends. It's best not to bother them with stuff like achieving success, since that's probably not what they care about.

Psyx
2010-12-21, 01:21 PM
But when those things come up he just sits back and lets whatever happen. He doesn't take the spotlight.


As for rewarding roleplaying... I do. This guy is falling behind he's not doing it.

Well, at least he's not an attention-hog! Those are worse!

As regards the second point... maybe that's further demotivating him. When you have a carrot and a stick, some people only see the stick.

Britter
2010-12-21, 01:48 PM
So? Not everyone wants to 'win' encounters. Most casual players I met are just there to spend some time with their friends. It's best not to bother them with stuff like achieving success, since that's probably not what they care about.

An absolutely correct statement. However, if the player is so casual that he doesn't want to interact with the game system at all, than Burning Wheel is not the best system for that player.

Which is a very relevant point. The player may simply be incompatable with the system. It happens.

As a total aside, in Burning Wheel, "winning encounters" and "achieving success" are mostly irrelevant (imo). Making important, sometimes difficult decisons, on the other hand, is sort of the central point of the system. A player that doesn't want to have to do that won't enjoy the game as much. The central award mechanic involves deciding what your character stands for, and fighting for it as hard as you can. It is very hard to play a passive character and enjoy the game, in my experience.