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Balor01
2010-12-20, 10:25 AM
So, our generic balor, a creatue of INT 24 and WIS 24, leader of wast demonic armies realized he is no match for lvl 10 wizard and decided to troll the little fella by accumulating 760.000 gp (an easy task for such an overlord) and equip himself.

What would you buy for a guy of his size if he decides that worpal sword and flaming whip are for puss***?

Pimp my balor :smallbiggrin: (with something DM-friendly if possible. Not ten dozen items who produce 1200 different effects)

tnx

molten_dragon
2010-12-20, 11:09 AM
So, our generic balor, a creatue of INT 24 and WIS 24, leader of wast demonic armies realized he is no match for lvl 10 wizard and decided to troll the little fella by accumulating 760.000 gp (an easy task for such an overlord) and equip himself.

What would you buy for a guy of his size if he decides that worpal sword and flaming whip are for puss***?

Pimp my balor :smallbiggrin: (with something DM-friendly if possible. Not ten dozen items who produce 1200 different effects)

tnx

Unless that wizard is extremely heavily optimized, the balor is going to be more than a match for him. Balors are nasty.

In fact, I could almost categorically state that unless said wizard is using TO-type cheese, the balor will win the fight something like 99% of the time.

Halae
2010-12-20, 11:17 AM
Unless that wizard is extremely heavily optimized, the balor is going to be more than a match for him. Balors are nasty.

In fact, I could almost categorically state that unless said wizard is using TO-type cheese, the balor will win the fight something like 99% of the time.

yeah. I may have a way for a red wizard to deal over 400d6 damage with a fireball, but that's some incredibly stinky cheddar right there. The average Balor is a tough challenge for an entire group of level 20 PCs. my suggestion is simple - no tossing such things at anything below a level 16 group, not some poor mal-prepared wizard

Gnaritas
2010-12-20, 11:24 AM
yeah. I may have a way for a red wizard to deal over 400d6 damage with a fireball, but that's some incredibly stinky cheddar right there. The average Balor is a tough challenge for an entire group of level 20 PCs. my suggestion is simple - no tossing such things at anything below a level 16 group, not some poor mal-prepared wizard

You do realise the Balor is immune to fire damage right ;)

<edit> yes i know there are options to fix this, but still why not just pick a spell that deals cold damage as an example.

Emmerask
2010-12-20, 11:30 AM
Cowl of Warding (Magic of Faerun) ~ 200k gp

freedom of movement and mind blank and turns 6 levels of spells / day

In addition I would take something that gives the balor force ward, then you have a pretty mean fellow ^^

A ring of mirror image and greater blink on top to surely kill your party with him (or at least make them run away :smallwink:)

Psyren
2010-12-20, 11:47 AM
You do realise the Balor is immune to fire damage right ;)

<edit> yes i know there are options to fix this, but still why not just pick a spell that deals cold damage as an example.

A lot of people forget this since demons aren't normally immune to fire. But Balors are... exceptional. :smallwink:

Chilingsworth
2010-12-20, 11:56 AM
I don't really think balors need any upgrading. Now, if you want to "pimp" him, why not just give him a bunch of succubi (or inccubi, if you'd prefer those)?

CockroachTeaParty
2010-12-20, 01:10 PM
Yeah, I really don't see a level 10 wizard getting past a good spamming of Blasphemy, barring either access to powerful items, or liberal use of Silence and Silent Spell. And even then, that's just negating one of a balor's many, many, deadly options.

Mordokai
2010-12-20, 01:18 PM
I don't really think balors need any upgrading. Now, if you want to "pimp" him, why not just give him a bunch of succubi (or inccubi, if you'd prefer those)?

A pimp balor? Hmmmm...

This has potential :smallbiggrin:

Johel
2010-12-20, 01:24 PM
Magic Armor+5 of Greater Energy Resistance (Cold)
81.000
Greater Ring of Energy Resistance (Acid)
44.000
Cloak of Charisma +6
36.000

That's a start

Psyren
2010-12-20, 01:28 PM
I don't really think balors need any upgrading. Now, if you want to "pimp" him, why not just give him a bunch of succubi (or inccubi, if you'd prefer those)?

Your sensitivity towards alternate-lifestyle balors fills my black and callused heart with joy :smallsmile:

Doug Lampert
2010-12-20, 01:39 PM
Magic Armor+5 of Greater Energy Resistance (Cold)
81.000
Greater Ring of Energy Resistance (Acid)
44.000
Cloak of Charisma +6
36.000

That's a start

Note that the armor should be a mithral shirt. You want to keep total weight under 50lb so he can still greater teleport at will.

There's no reason to waste a ring on acid resistance, you can add as many Greater Energy resistances to the armor as you like and save the ring slots for something better. Also throw etherealness on the armor, only 49,000 GP and it allows you to let the party THINK you have teleported out...

Remember to throw in a +1 bracers of armor with the special property of Heavy Fortification. Immunity to crits and rogues for only 36,000 GP.

A tome for +4 more to Cha for only 110,000 GP is golden (anything that adds to Cha adds to save DCs).

Buy something cheap but fancy looking that you can give to the second balor that you can automatically summon for an hour! That way the party will Gak the wrong target and you can teleport out.

Ring of counterspells: 4000 GP.
Dimensional Anchor cast into it: 280 GP
Look on adventurer's face when he identifies the correct Balor to target, hits your touch AC of 20 or more (unholy aura should always be up, it's 20 without ANYTHING but this and your default stuff), overcomes your 28 SR, and then you teleport out anyway: Priceless.

Remember that you have UMD 31 (33 for scrolls), and thus can use almost any item with 100% reliability (UMD does not autofail on a 1).

DougL

Deth Muncher
2010-12-20, 01:42 PM
Your sensitivity towards alternate-lifestyle balors fills my black and callused heart with joy :smallsmile:

I'm very glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read this, or I would have spat it out from chuckling.

Yora
2010-12-20, 02:02 PM
It's not a lifestyle! *rant* :smallbiggrin:

AyeGill
2010-12-20, 02:11 PM
I don't really think balors need any upgrading. Now, if you want to "pimp" him, why not just give him a bunch of succubi (or inccubi, if you'd prefer those)?

This right here. This is awesome. This is the kinda stuff that is the source of all awesome in the universe.

Yora
2010-12-20, 02:14 PM
Well, there always is Graz'zt!

*swoon*

The Glyphstone
2010-12-20, 02:19 PM
Aren't succubi and incubi the same thing anyways, what with at-will Polymorph?

Yora
2010-12-20, 02:22 PM
Depends on interpretation. The Monster Manual says nothing on that, but there's a fiend called incubus, I believe in one of the last issues of Dragon or Dungeon.
But since they were introduced more than 30 years after the more iconic demons, I like to ignore them.

arguskos
2010-12-20, 02:33 PM
Well, there always is Graz'zt!

*swoon*
Something like that. :smallamused:

Mordokai
2010-12-20, 02:36 PM
Well, there always is Graz'zt!

*swoon*

I'm more of a Malcanthet person myself :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-12-20, 02:40 PM
Depends on interpretation. The Monster Manual says nothing on that, but there's a fiend called incubus, I believe in one of the last issues of Dragon or Dungeon.
But since they were introduced more than 30 years after the more iconic demons, I like to ignore them.

Incubi are the original version of the demons though, from the shades of history. Succubi are just more popular in the modern times for...err, whatever reasons.

AyeGill
2010-12-20, 03:06 PM
Aren't succubi and incubi the same thing anyways, what with at-will Polymorph?

Personally, i like to think that incubus/succubus is just the gender specification for that species. AkA, they have identical stats, but that doesn't mean its the same(an incubus might have a hard time seducing males, and vice versa for succubi).

Psyren
2010-12-20, 03:21 PM
Mmm, Dispater... especially the BoVD version...

...What were we talking about?


Aren't succubi and incubi the same thing anyways, what with at-will Polymorph?

"Honey, I'm a shapeshifter. It's not like we never tried-"
"Not helping!"

woodenbandman
2010-12-20, 03:23 PM
Balor vs: level 10 wizard

step 1: Buy scroll of Wish
step 2: Hire rogue to UMD said scroll
step 3: Wizard is dead.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-20, 03:25 PM
Mmm, Dispater... especially the BoVD version...

...What were we talking about?



"Honey, I'm a shapeshifter. It's not like we never tried-"
"Not helping!"

I wanted to link to that, but couldn't find it in time.

Akal Saris
2010-12-20, 03:57 PM
A belt of magnificence +6 is 200k and grants +6 to all stats. Nice, simple, useful (especially if the wizard tries to do stat damage). Add in a cowl of warding, a ring of evasion, and a ring of spell turning, and that Balor's starting to get pretty pimped.

Psyren
2010-12-20, 04:06 PM
I wanted to link to that, but couldn't find it in time.

Neither could I until this very moment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html) :smallbiggrin:

Urpriest
2010-12-20, 04:36 PM
Am I the first person to wonder why this balor appears to be a wascally wabbit?

Johel
2010-12-20, 05:25 PM
Note that the armor should be a mithral shirt. You want to keep total weight under 50lb so he can still greater teleport at will.

There's no reason to waste a ring on acid resistance, you can add as many Greater Energy resistances to the armor as you like and save the ring slots for something better. Also throw etherealness on the armor, only 49,000 GP and it allows you to let the party THINK you have teleported out...

Remember to throw in a +1 bracers of armor with the special property of Heavy Fortification. Immunity to crits and rogues for only 36,000 GP.

A tome for +4 more to Cha for only 110,000 GP is golden (anything that adds to Cha adds to save DCs).

Buy something cheap but fancy looking that you can give to the second balor that you can automatically summon for an hour! That way the party will Gak the wrong target and you can teleport out.

Ring of counterspells: 4000 GP.
Dimensional Anchor cast into it: 280 GP
Look on adventurer's face when he identifies the correct Balor to target, hits your touch AC of 20 or more (unholy aura should always be up, it's 20 without ANYTHING but this and your default stuff), overcomes your 28 SR, and then you teleport out anyway: Priceless.

That seems a VERY GOOD start now.
Who can improve this ?


Remember that you have UMD 31 (33 for scrolls), and thus can use almost any item with 100% reliability (UMD does not autofail on a 1).

DougL

Yeah... So that's a lot of Wish scrolls.
And a big smirk when the Wizard is teleported in pyjama right in front of you, with unprepared spells and no equipment.

Eldariel
2010-12-20, 08:01 PM
Wish Scroll is one of the few things they can fail on; DC = 20+CL or 37 minimum for 9th level spells. If you get him a Circlet of Persuasion, however, that +3 is barely enough to put him on succeeds-on-1 level for said Scrolls. Disjunction is a good spell to keep in the back pocket. Only has one CL-dependent component anyways and that's not important much of the time (breaching AMFs and breaking artifacts).

He prolly wants Handy Haversack anyways, for handy stuff. Like scrolls and such. He should very probably have Freedom of Movement and Greater Fortifications on his Armor and Ring, respectively. And Ring of Evasion can't hurt. Hand of Glory gets him an extra Ring-slot for Ring of Spell-Battle (for example). Really, outsiders are rather well-rounded and don't need all that much help from items. You obviously want Con +6 on him. And Resistances +5. And Dex +6 for good measure; movement speed is good. Also probably some source of Deflection-bonus to armor, and quite possibly Monk's Belt; having a Touch AC in the 50s would be incredibly convenient as it makes hitting with just True Strike hard. He also has Telekinesis at will with the delicious ability to Quicken it so Portable Hole or some such full of nasty, big swords with various abilities to hurl with the spell could work.


If using other sources...well, Anklets of Translocation (or in general, swift action movement) is v. good, Belt of Battle is golden, Death Warding Armor can be convenient, and Ring of Spell-Battle is always good fun. All of those, except for Death Warding, are in Magic Item Compendium. Death Ward is from Player's Guide to Faerun. Oh yeah, and Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis [Tome of Magic] would give him Hide in Plain Sight which is quite good with a Balor's modifiers.

Chilingsworth
2010-12-20, 08:09 PM
I still say balors need no improvements!

If you don't want to turn it into an actual pimp, maybe you could turn it into a buisness exec, instead?




although, maybe the two aren't noticably different...:smallwink:

Psyren
2010-12-20, 08:16 PM
I still say balors need no improvements!

If you don't want to turn it into an actual pimp, maybe you could turn it into a buisness exec, instead?




although, maybe the two aren't noticably different...:smallwink:

Devils fit that mold better I think. I could imagine a Pit-Fiend holding a power meeting. (Case in point, my boss)

Runestar
2010-12-20, 09:12 PM
How exactly is this 10th lv wizard owning your balor? :smallconfused:

That said, don't bother with armour. Monk's belt adds +8AC for just 13000gp.

Smiling Knight
2010-12-20, 09:27 PM
Go Fate/Stay Night Gilgamesh. Buy a ton of powerful weapons, store them in a portable hole, and pull them out and hurl them at enemies with Telekinesis. Calling them "mongrels" is optional, as is armor.

Effective? Irrelevant. Stylish? Hell yes.

Doug Lampert
2010-12-20, 09:37 PM
Wish Scroll is one of the few things they can fail on; DC = 20+CL or 37 minimum for 9th level spells. If you get him a Circlet of Persuasion, however, that +3 is barely enough to put him on succeeds-on-1 level for said Scrolls. Disjunction is a good spell to keep in the back pocket. Only has one CL-dependent component anyways and that's not important much of the time (breaching AMFs and breaking artifacts).

Note that we're probably giving him a straight +10 Cha from tomes and items, so he's actually +38 UMD on scrolls and can activate CL 19 scrolls with no chance of failure. The Circlet brings that up to CL22 scrolls with no chance of failure, which lets him reliably use level 11 scrolls if he wants to.

grimbold
2010-12-21, 07:37 AM
the main advantage of the balor is the damage he does after being killed. sure the wizard can do 400d6 damage but the balor then explodes and the wizard dies.
if you want to optimize the balor then give him a speed/keen weapon so that he can get both crits and hit extra
boots of speed help
optimize him like you would any traditional melee character

Runestar
2010-12-21, 07:56 AM
I found out that the balor absolutely sucks as a melee combatant. Even the MM agrees, mentioning that it is most effective as a ranged artillery blaster. Using its superior flight speed to maintain distance from the party while sniping with SLAs like implosion, dominate monster and power word-stun.:smallamused:

AyeGill
2010-12-21, 09:11 AM
just buy him some wands of Maw of Chaos(spell compedium), and disjunction, and antimagic field. And fill a potable hole with acid. The balor can now either:
Drop an AMF, run up to the wizard and just hack him apart.
Drop a disjunction on him, lay down Maws of Chaos, and fly off.
Drop a disjunction on him, fly off, and pour acid on him.
Drop an AMF, grab him, and stick him in the portable hole.
Drop a disjunction on him, lift off, and alternate between onehitting him with the longbow now that all his buffs are gone, and dropping all the buffs he's trying to get up with a disjunction.

Worira
2010-12-21, 11:48 AM
He insta-kills the wizard with Blasphemy. He doesn't need more attack options for that fight.

Psyren
2010-12-21, 11:54 AM
He insta-kills the wizard with Blasphemy. He doesn't need more attack options for that fight.

Silence will protect the Wizard from that insta-gib, but unfortunately this approach has problems of its own.

Mastikator
2010-12-21, 12:08 PM
Even if the wizard is prepared against blasphemy, the Balor can still use Power Word Stun, which has no save and being deaf or not able to hear it doesn't block it either. There's no way a 10th level wizard can have 151+ hp (he'd need 36 constitution).
The wizard doesn't stand a chance, probably not even with the 760k gp (assuming he's not allowed to simply hire a team of level 20 wizards).

Ingus
2010-12-21, 12:19 PM
How exactly is this 10th lv wizard owning your balor? :smallconfused:



There was a thread with a T6 party breaking down a Balor. Basicly, it was a 6th level party with equipment on par of a 20th level party.
There were at least 12 easy ways.
The most humiliating involved an iterative casting of Otto's Irresistible Dance (ad it was my creation, but another story :smalltongue:)



He insta-kills the wizard with Blasphemy. He doesn't need more attack options for that fight.

Balor has caster level = 20. Blasphemy: HD equal to CL = dazed. Put on the wizard a mind blank and problem solved.
If you mean a 10 level wizard, add in freedom of movement and death ward and you'll suffer no ill effects.

Coming back to the original topic, Balor has the following, terrible weakness for a CL 20 demonic overlord: no death ward, no mind blank, no freedom of movement, very, very weak AC armor, poor SLAs DC, fairly poor melee, weakness to magical harm.
You can solve it with a bunch of scrolls, wands and a single good staff. Then,
make him a debuffer with corresponding objects and then again, having debuffed all the enemies, let him use SLAs or hit in melee.
To help action economy, add in a couple of minor demons to help.

Telonius
2010-12-21, 12:24 PM
If this wizard is going to stand any sort of a chance, we have to turn him up to 11. Wiz10 does not have access to either Contingency or Craft Contingent Spell. Both of those aren't available until level 11. The higher-powered divination spells are likewise out. Unless he has them in scroll form, the best he can manage is Contact Other Plane. Rope Trick will only last 10 hours a level, unless he Extends it, so little chance of hiding out in his personal extradimensional space forever.

Balor has Spell Resistance: [email protected] Wizard would need to burn an Assay Resistance to hit the Balor with anything that would actually hurt him.

Basically, I'm really not seeing how even an optimized Wizard could stand a chance, other than Candle of Invocation shenanigans, or Dust of Sneezing and Choking. Even then, the Wizard would have a hard time pulling it off, requiring a few rounds to do Candle of Invocation or getting close enough to a Balor to use the Dust.

Mastikator
2010-12-21, 12:49 PM
Balor has caster level = 20. Blasphemy: HD equal to CL = dazed. Put on the wizard a mind blank and problem solved.

Even assuming the wizard has 10 other levels in something else. The balor is going to be able to keep the wizard dazed indefinitely, the wizard needs to eat and drink to survive. The balor doesn't.
Mink Blank is 8th spell level, only a level 13+ wizard (or 14+ sorc) can cast it.

Ingus
2010-12-21, 12:55 PM
Basically, I'm really not seeing how even an optimized Wizard could stand a chance, other than Candle of Invocation shenanigans, or Dust of Sneezing and Choking. Even then, the Wizard would have a hard time pulling it off, requiring a few rounds to do Candle of Invocation or getting close enough to a Balor to use the Dust.

I love search engines in forums :smallbiggrin:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160998&highlight=Balor

Worira
2010-12-21, 01:01 PM
Balor has caster level = 20. Blasphemy: HD equal to CL = dazed. Put on the wizard a mind blank and problem solved.
If you mean a 10 level wizard, add in freedom of movement and death ward and you'll suffer no ill effects.


Death ward doesn't help against blasphemy, and we've been talking about a level 10 wizard this whole time.

Telonius
2010-12-21, 01:38 PM
I love search engines in forums :smallbiggrin:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160998&highlight=Balor

Wait, ours is functional now? :smallconfused: When did that happen?

Anyway, useful, but we're talking about a single Wiz10. Swordguy's entry would technically still work, but I think that's about the only one that would.

Ingus
2010-12-22, 07:35 AM
Wait, ours is functional now? :smallconfused: When did that happen?

Anyway, useful, but we're talking about a single Wiz10. Swordguy's entry would technically still work, but I think that's about the only one that would.

:smallbiggrin:

I was just trying to point out that it is possible and also terribly easy to put down a Balor. This thread as I intend it doesn't focus on "is it possible to a level 10th wiz to put down a Balor?" but on "Since my 14th level party chews Balors like candy and a level 20 party risks to enslave tons of Balors permanently, how to pimp my Balor?"

Runestar
2010-12-22, 08:57 AM
Balor has caster level = 20. Blasphemy: HD equal to CL = dazed. Put on the wizard a mind blank and problem solved.
If you mean a 10 level wizard, add in freedom of movement and death ward and you'll suffer no ill effects.

The spells you mentioned would not work at all, since blasphemy does not have the death or mind-affecting descriptor. Daze isn't mind-affecting.

In addition, do we assume the balor summons a 2nd balor? So it is actually 1 lv10 wizard vs 2 balors? :smallbiggrin: