PDA

View Full Version : [3.5]Statting up Children



LansXero
2010-12-20, 11:05 AM
Hello!

A bit of background, perhaps is in order:

Last session my character (CG Dragonfire Adept Kobold) was sent, alongside with the rest of the party, to a new, strange, metallic plane (based on MTG's Mirrodin). The party is spread apart and trying to reunite; all of this is as a way to explain, in-game, a change of DMs. Anyways, while running around on this new, strange plane my character was chasing rumours of other extra-planar arrivals, in an attempt to find his lost party mates (we are easily identifiable because we are all flesh, while native residents are half-metallic). So, one of these rumours led to a group of 4 stranded kids, who were running away from a minotaur near us when the whatever it was that landed us in the new plane beamed us.

They are two boys (14 and 12 years old) and 2 girls (12 and 10 years old). I think the DM meant their appearance as more of a flavor thing, but I dont think my character, who started out as a kidnapped NPC and then got promoted to party member and taken out from a rusy mine to a life of adventure, could sincerely just leave them behind. Currently we dont know of any ways to get back to our home plane (no clerics or arcanists in the party), and if we did, we probably wouldnt have the time to come back and look for them in time. And they most likely wont last long on their own, considering even grass can give you a nasty cut and most food and water edible for mostly organic things are luxuries and they are flat-out broke. So, Ive taken them under my wing and the DM approved of it.

The issue seems to be that since I decided Id have them train and start out on a more protein-based diet next morning, along with drills and exercise, that the DM is sayin my character ir risking an alignment shift. The kids are middle-aged, as far as kobold life spans go, and besides this is a world completely enveloped in war (we got dropped in the middle of a battle with a legion of zombies, and been seeing fighting everywhere), where everything from plants to insects to the very air can hurt or kill you; is it an evil act to train these children for battle and have them ready to defend themselves? Its not like a want my own 4-man army; Im just trying to get them to know the basics. I was thinking statting them up, at most, as level 2(probably 1) NPC classes to give each a little more personality, and then have them collaborate on 'safe' tasks during battles: carrying potions, flanking, distracting, tossing alchemicals, running in for heal checks on people with negative HP, etc.

Anyways, rules anywhere for this? Any thoughts, advice, etc?

Chilingsworth
2010-12-20, 11:41 AM
I know the d20 Modern core book mentioned stat adjustments for children. However, that book also listed children as individuals under 12 years of age, so you might not have to worry about it for three of your four.
(I don't actually remember what the stat adjustments were.)

As for alignment shifts, I'd say it wouldn't be evil at all to teach the kids how to fight. It would likely be next to useless in the enviornment you describe, but not evil.

Welknair
2010-12-20, 11:43 AM
I'd just use common sense. Chances are they'll be small sized, with all the usual effects from that. Smack on a -2 to str and con, due to not having fully developed, and possibly a -2 to a couple other stats that are yet to blossom, and you should be fine. This is what I did for the 10-year-old wizard in my party. =D

Sipex
2010-12-20, 11:44 AM
Also, your alignment change may be going from chaotic to neutral instead of good to evil?

Did the DM specify?

Chilingsworth
2010-12-20, 11:46 AM
Also, your alignment change may be going from chaotic to neutral instead of good to evil?

Did the DM specify?

Oh! that would make sense! Might still be alittle far-fetched, but it'd make some sense, anyway.

LansXero
2010-12-20, 11:50 AM
Actually now that you mention it, no he didn`t specifify. Why would it go to neutral? :O

And whilen yeah, it may not be a sure thing that they will survive with less than a week of basic training if left alone, its better than just dragging them along as dead weight or leaving them behind, isnt it?

Oh, another question, what kind of equipment would a children believably be able to carry? padded is pretty much a thick jacket, so thats in, leather too I guess. Metal armor doesnt seem like it would be easy to handle by an untrained child, but hide? maybe?

Ravens_cry
2010-12-20, 11:53 AM
There is the young template, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1) but I am 50/50 on using it on humanoid PC.

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-20, 11:57 AM
That definitely wouldn't be evil, regardless of the circumstances. You're teaching them basic self-defense!

Anyway, they should definitely not be higher than level 1. They probably shouldn't even have a class yet unless they'd already been training for it. I would stat them up as 1/2 HD Small Humanoids. Once they've had a lot of training, they'll be able to trade that HD for a real class level, but don't expect it to happen any time soon. At that age, they're basically helpless creatures, not even as tough as a 1st level commoner.

LansXero
2010-12-20, 12:55 PM
Not even as tough as a lvl 1 commoner? Thats harsh >_<. I guess it kinda makes sense, specially for the younger ones.

Thanks everyone for the input :D

hamishspence
2010-12-20, 04:30 PM
Cityscape had rules for a Throng of children- basically- somewhere between a mob and a swarm, since it's a mixture of Tiny and Small children.

The Throng was CR5.

Doesn't have rules for separate children though.

Maybe pinch from the Giant rules, to create working stats?

Adolescent Giants were 1 size small, had 4 less hiit dice, and between 2 and 4 ranks in the skills a Giant has. -4 Str, -4 Con

Juvenile Giants were 2 sizes smaller, had 8 less hit dice, 1 rank in each skill a Ginat has, -8 Str, -8 Con.


Might be a bit problematic since humans start with only one Hit dice in their relevant class.

LOTRfan
2010-12-20, 04:54 PM
Cityscape has rules for slaughtering children??? :smalleek:

Ravens_cry
2010-12-20, 05:13 PM
Cityscape has rules for slaughtering children??? :smalleek:
Eek is right.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-20, 05:21 PM
Are these children Human, or Kobolds? I'm unsure, based on your post - if they are Kobolds, however, your DM is using some significantly changed age categories for them, as Kobolds live longer than humans, according to Races of the Dragon. So a 14 year old Kobold would be an adult (as would the others, save the 10 year old, who would be a young adult).

As far as an alignment shift, I wouldn't call it an evil action. You are attempting to teach them survival skills, discipline, self respect, and all of that. Definitely a good act, especially since you are taking them in (at risk to yourself, I might add, as they are a 'dead weight' on the team as it is). I would ask the DM what classes they would become, with training, just in case one of them has sorcerous blood or suchlike. Otherwise they'd probably take class levels of your class or similar (I say your class rather than an NPC class as it strikes me that, in this situation, they would be more prone to the extraordinary abilities of an Adventurer, rather than just an NPC).

Coidzor
2010-12-20, 06:45 PM
I saw one of the few reasonable-seeming homebrews on one of the two or three D&D wikis was one for a child template.

Or you could crib the idea of level 0 classes that's occasionally floated around. Level 0 commoners 1 size category smaller than usual would be sufficiently pathetic for childrens.

Also, also, examine the "Mentor" and "Apprentice" feats if you want to raise an NPC into having class levels.

AslanCross
2010-12-20, 07:09 PM
Cityscape has rules for slaughtering children??? :smalleek:

It actually has rules for children slaughtering you, but yeah, anything with stats in D&D is meant to be killed. Or slapped into unconsciousness.

Dhavaer
2010-12-20, 07:14 PM
The d20 Modern stat adjustments are -3 Str and Con, -1 everything else.

Chilingsworth
2010-12-20, 08:14 PM
The d20 Modern stat adjustments are -3 Str and Con, -1 everything else.

Thanks! It's been quite some time since I've read through that book. I only vaugely remembered there even being stats for kids in it.

Prime32
2010-12-20, 09:02 PM
For human children I just use halfling stats. Because in a setting like D&D it should still be possible for a kid to kick ass (not that most will, any more than any lv1 commoner would). And children are more lucky in fiction anyway. :smalltongue:

Lord.Sorasen
2010-12-20, 09:08 PM
I would give children the penalties for being one step smaller as given to an animal. This would mean a hilariously low strength score by default, actually. But it could theoretically work.

Children really shouldn't (with rare prodigal exception) have a PC class. I imagine they'd be stated like commoners.

Perhaps... Keep going with the age categories in the DMG? Of course, children wouldn't have higher physical stats than adults... Maybe -2 str, -2 con, -2 int, wis, and cha?

Maybe. I don't know.

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-20, 10:40 PM
Not even as tough as a lvl 1 commoner? Thats harsh >_<. I guess it kinda makes sense, specially for the younger ones.

Thanks everyone for the input :D

Yeah, level 1 commoners are generally already adults.

LansXero
2010-12-20, 11:36 PM
Cityscape had rules for a Throng of children- basically- somewhere between a mob and a swarm, since it's a mixture of Tiny and Small children.

Thats an interesting idea, statting them up all together instead of each separatedly; still, Id like to see them develop a bit more, maybe they'll become someone else's PC someday :D


Are these children Human, or Kobolds?

Sorry I wasnt clear, they are human children. However, I figure they are the same size as my kobold, and koboldlings must be much smaller, so he should probably see them as adult-ish, even though he knows full-grown humans are larger.

Fun fact, the PHB lists 15 years old as having reached adulthood, adding a couple of years to be elegible for some classes. So Im thinking:

-2 STR/DEX/INT/WIS/CHA and small size penalties for the boys, and
-2 STR/DEX/CON/WIS/CHA for the girls; girls get smarter faster than boys anyways, but boys are hardy from earlier ages, at least when exposed to a rural life. I grew up herding cattle and tending crops during summer, and 14-year olds are capable of a LOT of things to be honest. Its just not something most people think about because of how used they get to city life.


I would ask the DM what classes they would become, with training, just in case one of them has sorcerous blood or suchlike. Otherwise they'd probably take class levels of your class or similar

Yeah, one of them taking to arcane or divine would be neat, but Im guessing such things should manifest around puberty or so, which they havent hit yet xD. Also, since there are no dragons in this plane and dragons aren`t really liked in human lands, I doubt they`d become Dragonfire Adepts, however taking after the skills and roles of the other party members wouild be a nice development. Maybe I'll even have them each train under a different party member during downtimes xD


Also, also, examine the "Mentor" and "Apprentice" feats if you want to raise an NPC into having class levels.

Where would I find these?


For human children I just use halfling stats. Because in a setting like D&D it should still be possible for a kid to kick ass (not that most will, any more than any lv1 commoner would). And children are more lucky in fiction anyway.

Interesting, although most halflings depicted in the books are ripped and have well-defined bodies, something children can't really achieve. But the luck factor seems like a good idea, and yeah, they wont be useless I can sense that :D

Callista
2010-12-20, 11:41 PM
Have you considered having your character train them in defensive and evasive fighting specifically? You probably won't be able to teach them to take down a bigger, stronger enemy within a week; but teaching them to survive and escape might just be possible.

It looks like there must be some kind of misunderstanding here. If your DM is assuming you are going to send them into battle deliberately, then yes, of course s/he'd rule that you're shifting to evil; but it looks like you are training them to fight back if attacked--which is what you should do; they'll need that if they've got a prayer of survival. Inform the DM that you are not, in fact, attempting to send the kids into battle and get them killed; you're trying to teach them to keep themselves alive.

You should probably stat them out as Rogues; that class has the best chance of hiding, since your character probably couldn't teach them magic in such a short time. You could easily say they are a size smaller than adults of their race, which should give them a big Hide bonus. Have you got a way to cast an illusion they can hide under if you get into a fight; like maybe UMD on a scroll or something? For example, a silent image of a big rock, and then show them how to hold still and not make a sound (Hide check with a good bonus for the illusion... should be enough to keep them safe.) It's unlikely that they will be able to run away from a fight unless you keep the enemy busy (though you might be able to do just that, if you can get the enemy's attention and keep it).

I suggest you teach them to react quickly, hide safely, and fight back if cornered. They'll be badly outmatched if they try to go toe-to-toe with anything your character's fighting. I don't think you should have them act as healers--it would be good strategy for any enemy to kill the healers, and if those healers happen to be children, that won't matter to the kind of enemies a CG person is likely to attract. However, you can probably get them to help you with things after the battle; and they should be carrying potions in case anyone goes down. In that case they can come out of hiding and save someone from outright dying, or help each other if one of them gets knocked into the negatives.

You didn't mention what level you are and what kind of enemies you are facing. If you are facing things that could kill them in one hit, then obviously you don't want to even let the enemy know they are there in the first place. But if you are 2nd level or lower yourself, then it might be safe to allow them to help with these minor tasks--as much to keep them from panicking as for any help they might actually provide.

Their major risk will be from area of effect spells; so you will want to teach them to get out of the range of spellcasters, breath-weapons, and similar; or to find cover. Say you're sixth level; you could survive a Fireball. Your level-1 Adept charges could not. You need to get them out of there before the enemy mage so much as reaches for the bat guano. Working out a set of signals to tell them to either run, hide, or find cover would be a great addition to the training you're doing.

LansXero
2010-12-20, 11:50 PM
Basically, what I dont want is them being helpless damsels in distress and used as an achiles heel for the party. They are children, not babies, and it would make me feel horrible if I took them from the frying pan and right into the fire.

My character is pretty decent at battlefield control, so yeah, I can keep them reasonably safe, but not if they would panic and run around like headless chicken, specially when even trees can kill you x__x. As for sending them into battle, no way. As I said in my first post, they'd be doing mostly logistic work: tossing vials of alchemy fire, carrying potions in case one of us gets low on HP or needs a buff, doing health checks if someone falls, maybe childlike-tricks like tripping someone with a rope tied between two trees, stuff like that. I have a couple of wands of disguise self and glitterdust, and thats it as far as magic goes =/, but at least I can shield them from cold and heat through my Endure Elements invocation :D (which also makes them inmune to my breath weapon, so no friendly fire).

Oh, area of effect spells, right. Well, I got voracius dispelling as an at-will and I was planning to use it often as we dont have a dedicated arcanist (or cleric for that matter) so that should help, but yeah, that was something I had overlooked. Could they use magic items? I have a cloak of resistance they could all hide under, I guess xD

Edit: Our party is level 6 going into 7, currently consisting of an elf rogue 5/warmage1, orc barbarian 6 with a bear pet, human fighter 6 and my kobold. So the other party members have 'simpler' character classes to teach and what they do are things that are realistically teachable to other people - weapon proficiency, armor proficiency, stealth, etc. Most of the time encounters are large amounts of low-CR enemies, with 1 - 2 high CR enemies as 'leaders'. DM makes use of terrain a lot, so hiding them should be no problem. If things go down south, Im saving my last charge of my tenser's floating disk wand to haul them off somewhere safe =(

Coidzor
2010-12-21, 02:04 AM
Where would I find these?

Sorry. I believe it's in DMG 2, got their own little insert and section of text.

Loki Eremes
2010-12-21, 03:21 AM
I share your feelings in this.
About 1 year ago our party went into an underground dungeon that leaded to an underground forgotten ruined city.
There we found a house. We tought it was full of monsters. Even more when a rock flew at us and we encountered several fight with humanoids before in the dungeon.
So we, as lvl 7 PCs took strategical position around the house and waited for the beasts to came out.
The Halfling prepared to throw his hand axe if something moved across the door.
And indeed....something came, something that was killed almost instantly.
This thing was a 9 year old boy.
We murdered him without even knowing.
This happens when you are new to D&D and you think all there in a dungeon are EXP points.
So...we entered the house and there we found a sick dead body and a crying 6 year old lady.
She told us that his father was sleeping and wanted to know where her brother was.
Not only we didnt have the courage to tell her what the halfling done, but also the Elf lied to her and tried to leave as soon as possible. I dont blame him, he was surprised as hell and in that moment we were really into the situation.
But at the end, my half-drow decided to take her with us. I, as a PC had my mother being killed around that age and without considering anything else took his hand to never let go.
Until today she doesnt know what happened to his father or brother, but well...someday we will tell her, but for now, let her be happy.



now to the question of this thread.
Lowering DOWN their stats its the best idea, beacause they are not full grown up adults.
In my particular case for a 6 year old girl we used a

-5 STR
-5 DEX
-4 CON
-2 INT
-2 WIS
-2 CHA
(this applied to a very young human girl; remember that a 14 year old boy in medieval ages are almost adult people)


I think Physical stats are the one you have to "downgrade" most.
When social/mental are something that you born with. You can study but your IQ wont change too much along your life, contrary to your wisdom.
And the only aspect of CHA is his/her personality, beacause their looks is another thing you're born with.

Speaking of classes. Use NPC related ones (expert is a good example) for them if your DM dont want your children to get too much into the fight.
My little girl is a LVL 1 expert.


I hope this wall of text helped you :smallbiggrin:

grimbold
2010-12-21, 04:24 AM
you could argue that training the kids for battle is in fact a good task. You are helping them to protect themselves.
sending them into battle is kind of neutral or evil however judging by your suggested use of them it seems kind of neutral, it would be good to leave them hiding in the bushes until you finish fighting

LansXero
2010-12-21, 05:21 AM
I share your feelings in this.

Interesting story. Yeah, must've been a shock when you guys found out; I think you did the correct thing and I hope you get a satisfying conclusion in the end :D


I think Physical stats are the one you have to "downgrade" most.
When social/mental are something that you born with. You can study but your IQ wont change too much along your life, contrary to your wisdom.
And the only aspect of CHA is his/her personality, beacause their looks is another thing you're born with.

Im thinking lowering everything but INT for girls (smart things, little girls), and everything but CON for boys (boys are built to last xD), plus small size modifiers. Cha should be lower for both because until they go through their emo / rebellious phase they dont actually have a well defined personality yet.


sending them into battle is kind of neutral or evil however judging by your suggested use of them it seems kind of neutral, it would be good to leave them hiding in the bushes until you finish fighting

I can see that, but I want them to gain some actual combat experience, because there is the problem of what happens if there is a TPK. Not from a mechanical standpoint, but from a roleplaying one. They dont belong here, their very phisiology isn't suited to living in this place, so if we were to all die, they'd have to be able to carve their own place in this awful metallic world. I don`t think my DM sees it that way, since if we all die we just roll new NPCs and life goes on, but somehow I can't condemn those imaginary kids to getting killed right after we roll our last dice.

hamishspence
2010-12-21, 01:11 PM
Eek is right.

I think the intent was more for "hazards"- if a population panics and turns into a "mindless mob" so to speak- the party might have to find a way to survive it without killing- and the rules, show how much damage the mob will do to the party until it is subdued, and how much nonlethal damage party members would need to do to subdue it.

Just because it has stats doesn't mean you should kill it, even if it means you can.

erikun
2010-12-21, 03:00 PM
Personally, I would just give then -2 to all rolls, along with AC, and leave it at that. Perhaps make them small sized, although without the benefits. I don't see much of a need for adjusting all the ability scores - based on gender, no less - for someone who is not going to be in the party, or even fighting, for very long.

Also, do you realize how long it will train children to be competent in a class? It's not like you can go out and kill a CR 10 enemy while they're watching from the sidelines, and have them suddenly gain 3 levels. I wouldn't be surprised if they need a month or two just to become a 1st level character in their selected class. How long are you (and your DM) planning on working with these children?

Callista
2010-12-21, 03:09 PM
I can see that, but I want them to gain some actual combat experience, because there is the problem of what happens if there is a TPK. Not from a mechanical standpoint, but from a roleplaying one. They dont belong here, their very phisiology isn't suited to living in this place, so if we were to all die, they'd have to be able to carve their own place in this awful metallic world. I don`t think my DM sees it that way, since if we all die we just roll new NPCs and life goes on, but somehow I can't condemn those imaginary kids to getting killed right after we roll our last dice.I think that if you teach them to fight, they'll get killed soon after you roll your last die... but if you teach them to hide, dodge, and use other evasive tactics, they may survive even if you do get killed. You're level 6 and you're facing things that could kill you. You simply can't teach these kids enough in the time you have with the stat penalties they have for them to be able to deal with this environment the same way you're dealing with it. A level 6 character like the one you're playing can fight things and hope to survive a good while; a level 1 NPC child simply can't. However--with their size bonus to Hide, they can probably stay undetected with some reliability.

Speaking of Survival: Has your group got a druid, ranger, or barbarian who can teach them how to find food and shelter? They should be helping your group do this already, and it's quite safe for them to learn (or as safe as it ever is in an environment that's as hostile as you describe). If they get good at hunting or gathering useful food or supplies, you might even be able to have four extra pairs of hands to help supply your party--always a bonus, and they can use those skills later on if they get separated from you.

druid91
2010-12-21, 03:12 PM
Children get this special ability.

Whine(Ex:) the child makes a request in a whining voice, the one addressed is immediately affected as though under the spell Geass/Quest for an unlimited duration. This allows no save.

LansXero
2010-12-21, 08:55 PM
Children get this special ability.

Whine(Ex:) the child makes a request in a whining voice, the one addressed is immediately affected as though under the spell Geass/Quest for an unlimited duration. This allows no save.

Sonic and Mind-Affecting, right? xD


How long are you (and your DM) planning on working with these children?

Probably quite a while, since the campaign is supposed to last a couple of months IRL time, and we will be in this new world for that long.


I think that if you teach them to fight, they'll get killed soon after you roll your last die... but if you teach them to hide, dodge, and use other evasive tactics, they may survive even if you do get killed.

True enough, they wont be going against the kind of thing we do, but probably against small threats they can't run from: predatory animals who get the jump on them, poachers, enslavers, etc. So far what we've seen of the world's population is full of a tribal / warrior culture; even to be more than a dirt farmer in whatever group of people they return to they are going to need to be able to stand their own, if only to fit in. But survival will be concern nš 1. Good idea on the survival and supply skills; fleshy food will likely be a growing concern for us as time goes by. I got 2d6 damage from trying to eat a metallic berry :(

Callista
2010-12-22, 01:48 AM
Sonic and Mind-Affecting, right? xDYeah, but if you slap a Silence spell on them, they'll just attack with the Puppy Eyes gaze attack...

PersonMan
2010-12-22, 03:17 AM
Perhaps make them small sized, although without the benefits.

...Why? Small size means you're a bit harder to hit(+1 AC) and it's easier to hide(+4 Hide). I don't see how children somehow are easier to hit and less able to hide than other small things...

If you just give them a flat penalty to everything, then they're ok-ish at hiding(+2 or +3) and still fairly easy to hit (AC 9 before dex and armor). So they're essentially useless in combat and will probably just need to be trained to spam Total Defense the moment something looks at them oddly(if someone protecting them is nearby-otherwise they run and hope that their base land speed is already 30').