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Volos
2010-12-20, 12:55 PM
I am planning on running a PbP game starting the 10th of January, and one of the players that presented an amazing character concept has asked to play Dvati for their race (Dragon Magazine #271 May 2000). I am fine with the fluff of the race, but the concept of playing two people at once seems like cheese to me.

Has anyone else played or ran with Dvati? Is there any particular fixes for the race to make it more DM/Player friendly? I have heard of one that I plan on using unless anyone knows of something better or can improve upon it.

The Fix.
Actions:
A dvati character's twins both act on the same initiative. Each twin may take one standard, one move, and one swift action, as long as those actions are not spells, spell-like abilities, or similar things (manifesting, soulmelding, etc). Should a dvati character wish to perform two such actions a round, they may each take a full-round action and make a single Concentration check between them (DC 20+the combined effective levels of the effects). If this check fails, only one effect (chosen by the dvati) takes effect. The dvati may choose to negate the chance of failure, but then their efforts take 1 round, instead of a full-round action. Should any of the spells/powers being used have a casting time longer than a full-round (or 1 round), they have a full-round (or 1 round) added to their casting times. Supernatural abilities are not subject to this limitation, unless they duplicate spells/powers exactly. This replaces the standard dvati casting rules.

Spell Conductor:
The Spell Conductor ability is altered so that any beneficial spell or effect with a range of touch that affects one twin affects both twins. This effect cannot be suppressed. (This is almost exclusively intended to handle cure spells)

CockroachTeaParty
2010-12-20, 01:06 PM
Ugh... good luck. Dvati are one of the most complex, difficult races ever devised. Lovely flavor, but clumsy mechanics.

I'd say the easiest fix is to let the player play two characters, and alter your encounter difficulty accordingly.

Sir Swindle89
2010-12-20, 01:17 PM
I've done a few threads on them recently and i think the concensus is that they aren't really that OP, possibly not worth the +1. The reasoning being that you could get leadership and a cohort and have one character at full level, one 3 below, both with full action, full HP, and able to cast on the same round.

It is certainly accepted that useing the official pazio ruleing on how many actions they get they are worthless in every respect. (the ruleing is basically your fix without the concentration check stuff, I.E. one action set to split between them)

I never really thought they were too complex like some people seem to think.

finally i'm not sure how your fix works. can they get 2 action sets if they take a concentration check? meaning they just get all their actions once they get higher level.

just 2 standards with a concentration check? if then do they still have one spell per?

arguskos
2010-12-20, 01:30 PM
Hey there, Volos! Interesting to see you here. For those not in the know, I'm the player in question, and I presented the above fix to Volos, so I can probably answer a few questions about said fix. Of course, I'll not do more than that, not my place. :smallredface:

Sir Swindle, the way the fix above functions is as follows:
-Each twin has one standard, one move, and one swift action a turn. These actions cannot *both* be spells, spell-like abilities, or similar things (manifesting, soulmelding, etc). This means that a melee Dvati would get two standard attacks, two move actions, and two swift actions a round (this was so things like Swift Hunters work fantastically now).
-A dvati may attempt to use two spells, spell-like abilities, or similar things (manifesting, soulmelding, etc) in a round, provided both take a full-round action and make a difficult concentration check (DC 20+combined levels of the effects). Should this check fail, they only get one effect and the time is spent. They can avoid this check by extended the casting time to 1 round (meaning they lose the current turn and the next turn to get off the spells).
-A dvati may cast one spell and do something else, using the normal action limitations.
-A dvati may not take two full-round actions, but may take 1 and some other stuff. Not sure when this would ever come up, but there you have it.

That's about it. I felt that this compensated for the LA +1 somewhat, clarified the action issues with the dvati, and helps kinda off-set the HP and gear issues.

Psyren
2010-12-20, 02:09 PM
Argus... I'd say that's still overpowered. Extra Swifts are very hard to get (the only way that comes to mind right now is the RKV level 7 ability) and here you have a character that's getting an extra one from the beginning. And even with the "only one can be a spell" restriction, there's other things you can do with your actions like attack/special attack, activate items, direct a spell or minion, make skill checks etc. Plus, they have the ability to overcome that restriction with an easily-boostable concentration check.

To compare, the Synad ability to separate their minds has the same "you can't doublespell with this" clause, plus it (a) costs a power point to activate and (b) can only be done 1/day (more with feats), and it's still considered good.

You're effectively making them be two characters, but still leveling as quickly as one would.

Sir Swindle89
2010-12-20, 02:11 PM
Ok i misread it. They proposed fix actually makes them more powerful.

casting 2, 9th level spells is a DC 38 concentration check? (level18+3+con(16)=24) is roughly the bonus you would be looking at w/o any thing close to cheese (or skill focus). so thats a pretty trivial DC IMHO. Sure he sould run out of spells pretty fast, but he could double wand cast stuff also.

I'm very cautious to say how much being able to reliably cast 2 spells is worth in LA. But then most of the casting cheese is out side of combat any way. so it could work.

arguskos
2010-12-20, 02:14 PM
Ok i misread it. They proposed fix actually makes them more powerful.

casting 2, 9th level spells is a DC 38 concentration check? (level18+3+con(16)=24) is roughly the bonus you would be looking at w/o any thing close to cheese (or skill focus). so thats a pretty trivial DC IMHO. Sure he sould run out of spells pretty fast, but he could double wand cast stuff also.

I'm very cautious to say how much being able to reliably cast 2 spells is worth in LA. But then most of the casting cheese is out side of combat any way. so it could work.
So, a DC 38 check, with a +24 rank seems easy to you? With Skill Focus, it's still only a 50-ish shot. Yeah, it can be cheesed, but so can anything, so saying "oh, it can be cheesed" isn't a great argument.

Don't forget, when that nat 1 comes up, you lose your spell slots and your time, and only one spell happens. Combine with the HP and gear issues, and I think it's still a LA +1 race.

Psyren
2010-12-20, 02:17 PM
Put a per/day limit on the multitask stuff and you're good. And I would flat-ban the double-casting: magic is bad enough with standard + quicken without you getting one more of each.

At the very least let the "act independently" move be 1/day to capture it's panic-button/alpha strike nature.

Toliudar
2010-12-20, 02:30 PM
Yes, still looks overpowered to me as well. Sure, you have to equip both bodies, to an extent, but one casting of mage armour or divine power covers both. Saying that something isn't that much more powerful than Leadership, possibly the most borked feat in the game, is damning with faint praise.

I can't think of many builds that wouldn't be made significantly more powerful by tossing this race into the mix. Two ToB melee characters? Check. Two archers? Check. A first level sorcerer who can't reliably make the concentration check? Still gets to fire a crossbow off while still casting a spell. Two clerics? One casts spells while the other enters melee.

Having the two bodies be able to take more than one set of actions, say, character level rounds per day MIGHT make this more workable.

Toliudar
2010-12-20, 02:32 PM
So, a DC 38 check, with a +24 rank seems easy to you? With Skill Focus, it's still only a 50-ish shot. Yeah, it can be cheesed, but so can anything, so saying "oh, it can be cheesed" isn't a great argument.

Buying a 10Kgp item (a +10 concentration item) that has immediate benefits for the character at level 20 is hardly cheese. And, barring houserules, a natural 1 is not an auto-fail on skill checks.

arguskos
2010-12-20, 02:36 PM
Buying a 10Kgp item (a +10 concentration item) that has immediate benefits for the character at level 20 is hardly cheese. And, barring houserules, a natural 1 is not an auto-fail on skill checks.
That's also a custom item, subject to permission. Granted, so is the race, but it can't be guaranteed.

I'll leave this be though, since it's Volos' decision, and I'll accept it. :smallsmile:

Quietus
2010-12-20, 02:39 PM
Heh.

Is this a habit of yours, arguskos, finagling troublesome things into PbP games? Though, I can't blame you; The recent Dvati threads here have had me thinking, too.

Nice 'tar by the way.

arguskos
2010-12-20, 02:43 PM
Heh.

Is this a habit of yours, arguskos, finagling troublesome things into PbP games? Though, I can't blame you; The recent Dvati threads here have had me thinking, too.

Nice 'tar by the way.
I have complex and detailed character visions, so you can't really blame me for wanting to use the complex and detailed character creation options at my disposal, can you?

Also, both the avatar and the character concept are actually old ones. But thanks. :smallbiggrin:

I should wear this one though:
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u250/bloodydoves/dvatigorkmork.png

Volos
2010-12-20, 03:09 PM
Could someone post links to their favorite Dvati threads? I have searched for them, but some direction toward the more informed or well thought out threads would be helpful. I was also thinking of a certain change to the fix I presented.

With the concentration check, for each Dvati that is threatened in melee combat the DC is increased by +5 to cast defensively. Unless both Dvati are threatened by different sources, then the increase is a net total of +15. This seems to make sense as they have to focus together to cast at the same time, but seperately to cast their own spells.

The other fix I was concidering as an either/or thing was to change the DC adjustment for certian spell levels. Instead of the sum of the combind spell levels, make it the sum of the spell levels x1.5 (rounded up). Or is that too harsh? Let's see...

Two 1st Level Spells... DC 23.
Two 4th Level Spells... DC 32.
A 6th and 3rd Level Spell... DC 34.
Two 9th Level Spells... DC 47.

kestrel404
2010-12-20, 03:26 PM
Actions:
A dvati character's twins both act on the same initiative. Each twin may take one standard, one move, and one swift action, as long as those actions are not spells, spell-like abilities, or similar things (manifesting, soulmelding, etc).

That's the way I see it as well. This isn't so much a 'fix' as the benefit you get for being Dvati, the reason you're taking that +1 LA.


Should a dvati character wish to perform two such actions a round, they may each take a full-round action and make a single Concentration check between them (DC 20+the combined effective levels of the effects). If this check fails, only one effect (chosen by the dvati) takes effect. The dvati may choose to negate the chance of failure, but then their efforts take 1 round, instead of a full-round action. Should any of the spells/powers being used have a casting time longer than a full-round (or 1 round), they have a full-round (or 1 round) added to their casting times. Supernatural abilities are not subject to this limitation, unless they duplicate spells/powers exactly. This replaces the standard dvati casting rules.

I'd say no, absolutely not. Dvati are fairly well balanced for melee classes - there are lots of ways to go and get more melee attacks, this is just one of them. But Dvati spellcasters are just broken without that 1 spell/round limit - far more broken than any normal character type. Even the ability to cast a spell AND make an attack is pretty darned powerful. That's why the existing crunch limits you to casting a spell and ONLY casting that spell. Remove that limitation at your peril.

The leeway here, in my opinion, is whether you allow multiple (SU) abilities per round - each twin using a different vestige power, or each twin using the Dragonfire Adept's breath weapon, for example. I'm all for allowing that sort of thing, because classes that rely on SU abilities instead of spells or SLAs tend to be more balanced towards melee (and the 'I can use X an infinite number of times a day'), and thus much harder to break by allowing X to happen twice as fast.


Spell Conductor:
The Spell Conductor ability is altered so that any beneficial spell or effect with a range of touch that affects one twin affects both twins. This effect cannot be suppressed. (This is almost exclusively intended to handle cure spells)

Expect things like Psicrystal Shenanigans, only more broken. This is a poor idea but probably not entirely broken.

IMO, the Dvati is primarily balanced by the fact that you need to expend twice the resources (magic items, buff spells, etc.) in order to keep them up to speed with the rest of the party. If the Dvati is a caster (and therefore don't specifically CARE about EQ/buff spells), most of the benefit from having two bodies is negated by only being able to cast like a normal character. For non-casters, having to split the loot/buffs between two bodies is the major limitation at higher levels, and HP is the limitation at lower levels. That's why Dvati are balanced. Remove those limitations at your own peril.

Prime32
2010-12-20, 04:13 PM
Could someone post links to their favorite Dvati threads? I have searched for them, but some direction toward the more informed or well thought out threads would be helpful. I was also thinking of a certain change to the fix I presented.Dvati threads you say?
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3364

Darrin
2010-12-20, 05:05 PM
Here's a link to where I posted a couple emails from Talon Dunning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7815509&postcount=32), who originally designed the Dvati for 2nd edition.

Note: He's not entirely sure how they work in 3.5, either.

Psyren
2010-12-20, 05:24 PM
Here's a link to where I posted a couple emails from Talon Dunning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7815509&postcount=32), who originally designed the Dvati for 2nd edition.

Note: He's not entirely sure how they work in 3.5, either.

Reading those e-mails helped me appreciate what a cool guy he is :smallsmile:

arguskos
2010-12-20, 06:49 PM
Hey Volos, if this is too much of an issue, I can withdraw interest, if you'd prefer. You're busy enough as it stands, what with the setting and other people and all, and I feel like I'm being an issue (seems to happen a lot these days). Figured I'd offer, in case you'd like to drop the whole matter. Your call. :smallsmile:

Volos
2010-12-20, 07:57 PM
It is an issue, but at worse I will choose the least broken of the options that I find. The simpliest interpretation is to not allow the extra casting... atleast not without a higher level adjustment. Don't worry about it for now, the game will be getting started next year.

Psyren
2010-12-20, 08:20 PM
I still maintain letting them act independently is all right as long as it is limited to x/day (where X <= 3), more with feats. Synad is a great barometer for this.