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A Ladder
2010-12-20, 04:32 PM
So with Tenebrous bound you gain the ability to turn/rebuke undead once every 5 rounds.
Devotion feats have this handy little clause in them:
"Special: If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each daily turn or rebuke use you expend."
some devotion feat require more expending of turning to gain more daily uses of the feat.
The ones that are nifty (to me) that have a one expand = one use ability are: destruction, healing, strength, and water devotion feats. (there is also the sun and evil/good devotions).

Now here is my question: Can you bind Tenebrous say, at the begging of the day, spend an hour burning through turn attempts to gain additional uses of those feats to expend whenever you want throughout the day? like 20 each.

also, could you "power up" those feats and then expel Tenebrous and still retain the uses of the feats? My logic here is that you turned the turn attempt into a daily use of the feat. Thus, you do not need a turn ability to use/activate the feat when you want to.

What are your thoughts? IS this possible?
(Also, I figure if I do "power up" my DM will most likely kill me in real life. This is merely a thought excercise.)

Thurbane
2010-12-20, 04:45 PM
Now here is my question: Can you bind Tenebrous say, at the begging of the day, spend an hour burning through turn attempts to gain additional uses of those feats to expend whenever you want throughout the day? like 20 each.
No - you could gain an extra use once every 5 rounds when you want to use the feat. You couldn't burn off turning attempts at the start of the day to stockpile uses of the devotion feats - the turn attempts needs to be expended as you use the devotion feat.

FWIW, I made a similar thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177033&highlight=tenebrous)...

A Ladder
2010-12-20, 04:46 PM
thank you!

Greenish
2010-12-20, 07:08 PM
No - you could gain an extra use once every 5 rounds when you want to use the feat. You couldn't burn off turning attempts at the start of the day to stockpile uses of the devotion feats - the turn attempts needs to be expended as you use the devotion feat.Well, you could burn them to give each of your allies a Healing Devotion, which they could then later activate as needed. It's another way for endless out of combat healing, and a handy backup.

Heliomance
2010-12-20, 07:27 PM
No - you could gain an extra use once every 5 rounds when you want to use the feat. You couldn't burn off turning attempts at the start of the day to stockpile uses of the devotion feats - the turn attempts needs to be expended as you use the devotion feat.

FWIW, I made a similar thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177033&highlight=tenebrous)...

Actually, if what he's written up there is the correct wording... I think, by RAW, it works the way he thinks it does.

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-20, 07:39 PM
I'm pretty sure you can't do this. The actual rule on domain feats is:

If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you can gain additional daily uses of a domain featís benefit by permanently sacrificing daily uses of that ability.

Tenebrous does not give daily uses of turn/rebuke, and it's very difficult to model a permanent sacrifice of his ability in any case. Tenebrous's turning is not compatible with domain feats.

Thurbane
2010-12-21, 04:25 PM
According to the CC errata, the "permanent" part is in error. As per the individual feats, it's only daily uses, not a permanent loss of daily capacity.

true_shinken
2010-12-21, 04:30 PM
Tenebrous with all day long turning is one of those selective readings that become very widespread.

You get turn undead as a cleric. Clerics get turn undead 3 times + Cha mod a day. You also can't use said turn undead more than once every 5 rounds.
At least, that's how I interpret it. Getting unlimited uses forces you to ignore the 'as a cleric' part.

mootoall
2010-12-21, 04:36 PM
Actually, by strict RAW (unless I missed the eratta) turning is based off cleric level, so if you don't have a level in cleric you can't turn at all ;)

Thurbane
2010-12-21, 05:59 PM
You get turn undead as a cleric. Clerics get turn undead 3 times + Cha mod a day. You also can't use said turn undead more than once every 5 rounds.
At least, that's how I interpret it. Getting unlimited uses forces you to ignore the 'as a cleric' part.
Yes - of course the other reading (the one I personally subscribe to), is that that "as a cleric" merely refers to your effective cleric level for turning/rebuking, and you get to do it once/5 rounds.

Actually, by strict RAW (unless I missed the eratta) turning is based off cleric level, so if you don't have a level in cleric you can't turn at all ;)
So this means that Paladins, Dread Necromancers and anyone else who gets turning/rebuking cannot actually do it?

Greenish
2010-12-21, 06:18 PM
So this means that Paladins, Dread Necromancers and anyone else who gets turning/rebuking cannot actually do it?Paladins, at least, have a stated cleric level for their turning.

Akal Saris
2010-12-21, 06:53 PM
Note that under the Tenebrous Apostate PrC, the 1st level ability improves your turn or rebuke undead ability granted by Tenebrous, and then adds

"You can still use these turn attempts in conjunction with divine feats, as
normal."

Seems pretty clear-cut to me that you can use divine feats with Tenebrous' granted abilities.

However, I'd say it really depends on the game in question. I mean, a DM can still screw over the PC and say "No! These are every 5 rounds, not a daily turn undead like a devotion feat requires, so you can't use it!" Really, though, that's being passive aggressive. The argument should be, "I don't think this matches the power level for this game, so it doesn't work that way."

Let's look at what you get out of this:

Destruction: This is a horrible feat. Blech.

Healing: You can get at-will healing as a binder by binding a different vestige than Tenebrous. I don't think this is so broken on a feat.

Strength: Very strong ability for a melee character - trade a feat for a free attack and pierce DR/adamantine. Still, I'd allow it - it's about on par with Flying Kick or a feat to gain flurry.

Water: Cute ability, but only mediocre unless you're optimizing summoning. Given that there's a vestige that gives you Summon Monster as a sorcerer of your level every 5 rounds, I really don't think this is unbalanced in comparison.

Looking at the other devotion feats, nothing strikes me as too absurd. The divine metamagic feats will get out of hand on a Tenebrous Apostate, but the problem there lies with divine metamagic, not with the vestige.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-12-21, 07:18 PM
I understand RAI is what the thread considers. Just thought I'd mention RAW a binder is limited to 3+cha mod turns per day :smallmad:. Not that I'd enforce that in my games. :smallcool:

true_shinken
2010-12-21, 07:49 PM
I understand RAI is what the thread considers. Just thought I'd mention RAW a binder is limited to 3+cha mod turns per day :smallmad:. Not that I'd enforce that in my games. :smallcool:

You advocating RAI? No wonder it's raining. :smalltongue:

Thurbane
2010-12-21, 08:00 PM
I understand RAI is what the thread considers. Just thought I'd mention RAW a binder is limited to 3+cha mod turns per day :smallmad:. Not that I'd enforce that in my games. :smallcool:
I honestly don't believe the RAW aspect is that clear cut myself. YMMV.

Godskook
2010-12-21, 08:11 PM
I understand RAI is what the thread considers. Just thought I'd mention RAW a binder is limited to 3+cha mod turns per day :smallmad:. Not that I'd enforce that in my games. :smallcool:

RAI = RAW = 3+Cha it seems, in this case. The text gives exactly 2 stipulations on the number of uses:
1.As a cleric
2.Once used, cannot be used again for 5 rounds.

I don't see any distinguishing difference between the rules as written and what they were intending.

Heliomance
2010-12-21, 08:17 PM
The fact that no other 1/5 rounds ability on any vestige has a uses/day limit? The whole design ethos of Binder is that it gives abilities that keep going all day long.

JBento
2010-12-21, 08:27 PM
It all depends on how you read "as a cleric". I've always read it as referencing the turning level (as in, you have this turning ability at the level of a single-class cleric of your class level), not the number of uses.

Greenish
2010-12-21, 08:30 PM
The fact that no other 1/5 rounds ability on any vestige has a uses/day limit?Some of them do. Say, Dantalion's Thought Travel.

dextercorvia
2010-12-21, 08:35 PM
Actually, by strict RAW (unless I missed the eratta) turning is based off cleric level, so if you don't have a level in cleric you can't turn at all ;)

Rules Compendium clarified that to Turning Level which is equal to sum of all levels in classes that grant TU.

Thurbane
2010-12-21, 08:38 PM
RAI = RAW = 3+Cha it seems, in this case. The text gives exactly 2 stipulations on the number of uses:
1.As a cleric
2.Once used, cannot be used again for 5 rounds.

I don't see any distinguishing difference between the rules as written and what they were intending.

Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.
Would that not mean you get a Clerics full allotment of daily turning every 5 rounds? :smalleek:

Godskook
2010-12-21, 08:39 PM
The fact that no other 1/5 rounds ability on any vestige has a uses/day limit? The whole design ethos of Binder is that it gives abilities that keep going all day long.

A general pattern does not imply that there was a rule or intention for something to work a certain way.


Would that not mean you get a Clerics full allotment of daily turning every 5 rounds? :smalleek:

No. That text does not grant uses, merely restricts your ability to use them. It also makes no implication of 'refreshing' the ability. Merely that for 5 rounds after using the ability, you can't make use of it again.

If it had said "you may use this ability 1 every 5 rounds", then the RAW would be unclear.